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GoC
2007-09-24, 04:55 PM
*image needed*
What's the most badass you can make a kitten?:smallwink:

Kitten+Paragon+Monster of Legend=
Paragon Kitten of Legend AKA The Evil Mastermind
Size/Type: Diminutive Outsider
Hit Dice: 1d8+12+11 (31 hp)
Initiative: +16
Speed: 90 ft. (18 squares)
Armor Class: 60 (+4 size, +12 Dex, +12 insight, +12 Luck, +10 natural), touch 50, flat-footed 48
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+21
Attack: Claw +41 melee (1d4+28)
Full Attack: 2 claws +41 melee (1d4+28) and bite +39 melee (1d6+24)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/epic, SR 26, Spell-like abilities, Permanent Spell Turning, Immune to mind-affecting effects, Fast healing 20, fire and cold resistance 10, Casts spells as 5th level cleric, +10 on all skill checks
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +27, Will +21
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 34, Con 33, Int 18, Wis 27, Cha 23
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB, Multi Attack
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 12

Spell-like Abilites
3/day-greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility. CL 15

Skills
Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

Notable skills: +42 Hide (essentialy invisible)

Now for his archnemesis:
http://digilander.libero.it/ilmondodibucky/images/superkitty.jpg
Kitten+Paragon+Monster of Legend+Superhero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4069970&postcount=20)=
Superkitty!
Size/Type: Diminutive Outsider
Hit Dice: 5d10+60+85 (190 hp)
Initiative: +16
Speed: 90 ft. (18 squares), fly 120ft good (24 squares)
Armor Class: 70 (+4 size, +12 Dex, +12 insight, +12 Luck, +10 natural, +10 deflection), touch 60, flat-footed 58
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+45
Attack: Claw +45 melee (1d4+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +45 melee (1d4+35) and bite +40 melee (1d6+27)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, Ray Vision
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 15/epic, DR 5/- SR 31, Spell-like abilities, Permanent Spell Turning, Immune to mind-affecting effects, fear, Disease, Poison, stunning, sleep effects, nonlethal damage, or critical hits, Fast healing 20, fire and cold resistance 10, Casts spells as 5th level cleric, +10 on all skill checks,
Saves: Fort +39, Ref +35, Will +31
Abilities: Str 41, Dex 34, Con 43, Int 10, Wis 27, Cha 27
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB, Power Attack, Iron Will
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 17

Spell-like Abilites
3/day-greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility. CL 15

Ray Vision (Su)
Once every 1d4 rounds kitty can unleash a ray of force. This is a ranged touch attack with a range of 100 feet that deals 3d6 points of force damage.

Skills
Superkitty has a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot, Balance and Jump checks. He uses it's Dexterity modifier instead of his Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

martyboy74
2007-09-24, 05:03 PM
Shouldn't this be in homebrew?

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-24, 05:03 PM
Not quite as unholy at the PPDC, but still only to be really used if you despise your players and want them to die an embarrassing death.

This is a mighty kitten indeed.

He is the Prime Kitten, the kitten by which all others are judged, and found lacking. This is a battle only for those who have grown tired of life or have always made it a goal to be pureed into a fine, bloody mist.

Starsinger
2007-09-24, 05:04 PM
Low level wizards and sorcerers everywhere cringe..

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 05:05 PM
Don't forget to add Titanic and Pseudonatural Templates.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-24, 05:07 PM
Kitten? Where'd you find that? I can only find the stats for the cat.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 05:10 PM
(31 hp)
AC 60 or not, a roll of 20 will kill this thing when coming from any character with decent damage output.

Douglas
2007-09-24, 05:10 PM
A level 17 Swordsage can kill it automatically in 1 round with Inferno Blast. It's not a spell so SR doesn't matter, it hits everything within 60 feet so he doesn't have to see the kitten, and even on a successful save it's still 50 fire damage, which drops the kitten to... -9. Ok, so he needs something else to do that last 1 point of damage before fast healing kicks in, but that shouldn't be hard.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 05:11 PM
A level 17 Swordsage can kill it automatically in 1 round with Inferno Blast. It's not a spell so SR doesn't matter, it hits everything within 60 feet so he doesn't have to see the kitten, and even on a successful save it's still 50 fire damage, which drops the kitten to... -9. Ok, so he needs something else to do that last 1 point of damage before fast healing kicks in, but that shouldn't be hard.

If the kitten fails stabilization, it drops to -10 the next round.

Also try: consumptive field.

Zincorium
2007-09-24, 05:12 PM
Titanic is a good one, it has to be added first though. If no one else comes up with it I'll work out the final stats for a paragon titanic kitten of legend when I have some time.

Starsinger
2007-09-24, 05:14 PM
The Eternal template from the Warcraft d20 book "Shadows and Light" is pretty amazing... but I think the kitten fails the AC limit.

GoC
2007-09-24, 05:20 PM
Kitten? Where'd you find that? I can only find the stats for the cat.

Started with cat and adjusted as follows:
Size reduced by 1
All stats reduced by 2 except Int (0 Int isn't possible)

Renegade Paladin: I play with nat 20 meaning do a reroll and add +20.

douglas: Try it with a level 16 party.
Then try to make a level 16 party who could survive a surprise round with it.

continuumc
2007-09-24, 05:23 PM
Don't forget, the kitten should have 20 levels of barbarian as well. :-) That should boost the HP nicely as well as giving it RAGE. :-) That, or rogue levels for sneak attack.... oo, and improve evasion.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-24, 05:30 PM
Renegade Paladin: I play with nat 20 meaning do a reroll and add +20.
Okay. That's irrelevant to asking about setting it's CR for the rest of us, though, at least not if you don't tell us about the house rule first.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 05:34 PM
Throw in a few racial Hit Die to make it a bit stronger. I mean, it doesn't have much health.

GoC
2007-09-24, 05:46 PM
Throw in a few racial Hit Die to make it a bit stronger. I mean, it doesn't have much health.

Any idea what could do that without it's CR going epic?

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 06:05 PM
The Titanic template.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 06:06 PM
Or the Multiheaded template.

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 06:07 PM
Which is that?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 06:11 PM
Right here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070608a)

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 06:18 PM
That Tarrasque scares me, especially with the half-fiend template. CL 109 for blasphemy? :smalleek:

GoC
2007-09-24, 06:19 PM
The Titanic template.

A. +13 CR is huge!
B. Reduces touch AC by a very large amount
C. Standard AC also goes down.
D. Completely wrong flavour. A gigantic kitten just seems wrong...

GoC
2007-09-24, 06:33 PM
Noone's got any guesses as to CR?

goat
2007-09-24, 06:36 PM
D. Completely wrong flavour. A gigantic kitten just seems wrong...

If by wrong you mean AWESOME, maybe.

You could drop it in a big city and let it knock buildings down while using them as scratching posts.

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-24, 06:40 PM
Its stats might be scary, but its easily defeated by a ball of string...

GoC
2007-09-24, 06:47 PM
If by wrong you mean AWESOME, maybe.

You could drop it in a big city and let it knock buildings down while using them as scratching posts.

XD
I LOVE that idea!

Still gives it CR 30 though. At that level it's reduced AC means it's not a real threat.

Arakune
2007-09-24, 06:55 PM
Can anyone make a Titanic Legendary Pseudonatural Paragon Cat? :smalltongue:

I only know it have some insane power with CR 32, not as much as the PPDC, but I would call that kittenthellu, the elder god of cats!

tannish2
2007-09-24, 07:13 PM
hhhhhhhmmmmmm DMing second session for my RL group on saturday.... ive gotta throw this at them.... maybe give it ninja levels.

TheOOB
2007-09-24, 07:23 PM
I should hope a level 17 party can defeat this without too great of difficulty. It's damage dealing ability isn't that great, and it is made of glass as far as hp goes, a pair of magic missiles could kill it.

WitchSlayer
2007-09-24, 07:24 PM
Phew, RL group. That means I'm not getting this thrown at me. Especially considering we're starting at level one. Damnit guys, I gave Tannish this board to prove wizards are really good, not to give him ideas like this!

GoC
2007-09-24, 07:25 PM
Can anyone make a Titanic Legendary Pseudonatural Paragon Cat? :smalltongue:

I only know it have some insane power with CR 32, not as much as the PPDC, but I would call that kittenthellu, the elder god of cats!

Creepy...
But if I'd really wanted power I'd have gone for the Leapard, Tiger or Dire Tiger.
I mostly went for Flavour(Epic Kitten Attack!).


I should hope a level 17 party can defeat this without too great of difficulty. It's damage dealing ability isn't that great, and it is made of glass as far as hp goes, a pair of magic missiles could kill it.

It has power attack and 4 attacks per round (hasted).
I does at least 100/round to anything with less than 42 AC.
It also reflects magic missile (and most other spells).

Belteshazzar
2007-09-24, 07:26 PM
Wasn't Bast technically one of the Lovecraftian Stable o' Things What Cause San loss in the Night. I remember her being listed along with the Greek god Hypnos as one of the minor players in the big games once or twice.

Just saying because thats the only explanation I have for the Psudonatural beasties you are suggesting.

Arakune
2007-09-24, 07:27 PM
but it must be a kitten, maybe the Tiamat kitty?

Nada Rakshasa
2007-09-24, 07:34 PM
Wow. That's just fun. It's a good thing I don't DM, 'cause my players would definitely face this cute little critter. And suffer for under-estimating it.

Swordguy
2007-09-24, 07:44 PM
Wasn't Bast technically one of the Lovecraftian Stable o' Things What Cause San loss in the Night. I remember her being listed along with the Greek god Hypnos as one of the minor players in the big games once or twice.

Just saying because thats the only explanation I have for the Psudonatural beasties you are suggesting.

Actually, Bast and Hypnos (along with Noden) are about the only things in the Cthulhu Bestiary that don't cause SAN loss.


And this kitty is just further proof that, for all cats, the only difference between a kitten's owner and its food is size.


...they'd eat you if they could...

leperkhaun
2007-09-24, 10:27 PM
a level 17 party should have no problem taking this out.

Mewtarthio
2007-09-24, 11:30 PM
That Tarrasque scares me, especially with the half-fiend template. CL 109 for blasphemy? :smalleek:

No worries. The Half-Fiend template requires a minimum Int of 4, so we're safe.

That is, until you bump its Int with another template. I like the Phrenic template, because it grants PLAs, and PLAs become very... wonky at high manifester levels. But I digress.

Re: The topic at hand:

Are there any Tiny humanoids? I ask this because I'd really like to see a vampire were-kitty. I suppose a baby kobold could suffice...

JackMage666
2007-09-25, 12:04 AM
The grapple modifier is -4. That's the key to weakness.

tannish2
2007-09-25, 02:20 AM
obviously YOU have never grappled a kitten. it causes much pain. and light headedness. and stains on whatever your arm happens to be over at the moment.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 03:11 AM
Paragon titanic kitten (cat) of legend, statted out:


Size/Type: Gargantuan outsider
Hit Dice: 25d8 + 600 + 500 (1300 hit points)
Initiative: +14
Speed: 90 ft. (18 squares)
Armor Class: 65 (10+10 dex+25 natural armor+ 12 luck+ 12 insight -4 size) 55 flat footed, 40 touch
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/56
Attack: Claw +69 melee (3d6+46)
Full Attack: 2 claws +69 melee (3d6+46) and bite +67 melee (3d8+33)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, poison (DC 42, Pri and secondary 1d6 str)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 10/epic, SR 55, Permanent Spell Turning, Immune to mind-affecting effects/poison, Fast healing 20, fire and cold resistance 10, +10 on all skill checks
Saves: Fort +49, Ref +37, Will +36
Abilities: Str 62, Dex 31, Con 51, Int 19, Wis 29, Cha 26
Feats: Improved initiative, great fortitude, weapon finesse, multi-attack
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 30


So, don't have any feats that come to mind, and if we get another +3 CR template we can have CrabThulu and it fight to the death, in the midst of tokyo.

Also, if I made any mathematical mistakes, point 'em out, but remember titanic won't reduce the dex score past 10 initially and I started using regular cat statistics.

Cogwheel
2007-09-25, 03:56 AM
Bard levels, what else?:smallbiggrin:

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 05:25 AM
And, just to get it wierd, here's an actual CR 33 opponent for PPDC:

Pseudo-natural monstrous (beast) multiheaded kitten of legend:


Size/Type: Gargantuan outsider
Hit Dice: 55d10 + 1815 (2365 hit points)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 60 ft.
Armor Class: 58 (10+8 dex+40 natural) 50 flat footed, 18 touch
Base Attack/Grapple: +55 /99
Attack: Claw +98 (3d6+28)
Full Attack: 2 claws +98 (3d6+28), 13 tentacles +98 (2d8+28), 16 bites +98 (3d8+14+poison)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Pounce, breath weapon 96d6 sonic DC 70 reflex
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, DR 15/epic, SR 275, Immune to mind-affecting effects/poison, Fast healing 5, acid and electricity resistance 75, blindsight, spell like abilities
Saves: Fort + 67 Ref + 40 Will +28
Abilities: Str 69, Dex 26, Con 76, Int 4, Wis 24, Cha 11
Feats: Improved initiative, great fortitude, weapon finesse, improved multi-attack
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 33

Poison DC is 70, primary and secondary 1d6 strength


Not as mobile as the crab, or as smart, but 31 attacks and pounce does not a happy crabthulu make.

By my count, I have 13 ability score increases and 19 feats left to give this guy.

Also, does anyone have a map of Tokyo in grid size?

Kolbur
2007-09-25, 07:07 AM
And here you can read how to play this monster:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29508&page=29#856

:smallwink:

GoC
2007-09-25, 10:21 AM
The grapple modifier is -4. That's the key to weakness.

Touch AC 50 and a +41 attack. There's NO WAY you can grapple that.

Zincorium::smalleek:

EDIT: The kitten wins. Crabby's grapple is too low to use his CON drain and even if he could the kitten would survive. Kitty just needs one pounce attack to kill him.:smallcool:

Telonius
2007-09-25, 10:30 AM
D. Completely wrong flavour. A gigantic kitten just seems wrong...

:smallconfused: If you put a standard kitten on the game grid, about how many squares would it take up?:smallbiggrin:

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 10:45 AM
:smallconfused: If you put a standard kitten on the game grid, about how many squares would it take up?:smallbiggrin:
All of them. And soon there'd be no grid left, not to mention the pieces on it. :smalltongue:

However, unleashing a real kitten onto a game map is probably a very accurate simulation of the kind of destruction the paragon titanic kitten of legend could accomplish.

Arakune
2007-09-25, 12:46 PM
Titanic Legendary Pseudonatural Paragon Kitten(cat)



Kittenthulhu, the furry Old One

Size/type: Gargantuan 'outsider'
HD: 25d8 +300 + 625 (1037, average)
Initiative: +19
Speed: 180 ft
Armor Class: 80 (10 +35nat, +12 insight, +12 luck, -4 size, +15 dex), flat-footed , touch
Base Attack/Grapple: +43(+58)/+80(+95)
Attack: (+20 luck on all meele and thrown)
Full Attack: Claw 3d6 +57, Bite 3d8 +57, Tentacle rake ???
Space/Reach: 20ft/
Special Attacks: (+13 insight if aplicable, one at time, special attacks deal x3 damage) Trample, Improved Grab (Ex), Rotting Constriction (Ex), Poison (2d6/2d6, DC 47)
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, Haste (always on), Immunity of mind-affecting/polimorphing effects, Constant Insight (Su), Spell-Like Abilities (at will: blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow; Caster level 20th+15, charisma Based DC; grater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility 3/day, caster level 15th), Electricity and Acid Resistance 45, Fire and Cold resitence 10, DR 15/epic, +7 Extra Tentacle Rake Attacks, SR 75, Epic Natural Weapons, Alternate Form (Su), Fast Healing 20
Saves: +52 fort, 42 ref, +41 will
Abilities: Str 84(+37), Dex 41(+15), Con 61(+25), Int 28(+9), Wis 39(+14), Cha 24(+7)
Feats (+9): Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(bonus), Great Fortitude(bonus), Multi-Attack(bonus), Improved Initiative(bonus),
Skills (+28 pts) +10 competence on all skills: +4 racial bonus on Climb, Move silenty, +8 racial bonus on Jump, Balance checks
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: 40


I still need some help to complete the stats, but I don't think I messed up that much.
Tsk... CR 40 is too much, but considering the crab near-invulnerability, i guess they can make an even fight.

Swooper
2007-09-25, 01:10 PM
I didn't mean that seriously. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51087) :smalleek:

tannish2
2007-09-25, 01:29 PM
well someone good at math can figure out what zoom level to take a screenshot in google earth impose it on a dungeon thingy and have the kitten fight the crab.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 01:35 PM
Fools! Mighty Crabthulhu can never be beaten by a simple kitten, you forget it springs from the very wellspring of darkness that is the genus That Damned Crab!

...Plus Crabthulhu has spell-like abilities and a DvR of 0. :smallwink:

GoC
2007-09-25, 02:03 PM
You forgot that Monster of Legend increase HD by 50%.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 02:07 PM
Touch AC 50 and a +41 attack. There's NO WAY you can grapple that.

Zincorium::smalleek:

EDIT: The kitten wins. Crabby's grapple is too low to use his CON drain and even if he could the kitten would survive. Kitty just needs one pounce attack to kill him.:smallcool:

DPPDC has an AC of 86 (touch 51, flat-footed 73). Kitty can't hit him but on a nat 20.

Arakune
2007-09-25, 02:16 PM
DPPDC has an AC of 86 (touch 51, flat-footed 73). Kitty can't hit him but on a nat 20.

my kitty can :smallbiggrin:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 02:20 PM
my kitty can :smallbiggrin:

Your kitty also has 9 more HD than the DPPDC (who has 16). The fact that DPPDC is still a valid threat at this juncture says something.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 02:35 PM
Your kitty also has 9 more HD than the DPPDC (who has 16). The fact that DPPDC is still a valid threat at this juncture says something.


That DPPDC actually needs its own church and OotS image? :smallbiggrin: ...What? I'm not the only one thinking it!

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 02:40 PM
That DPPDC actually needs its own church and OotS image? :smallbiggrin: ...What? I'm not the only one thinking it!

I totally need a DPPDC avatar now.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 02:46 PM
For an equal CR, and thus supposedly equal challenge, the template-abusing Pseudo-natural monstrous (beast) multiheaded kitten of legend is probably more than a worthy foe, as it does not in fact need a natural 20 to hit the crab under most circumstances.

The only thing I will say is that if divine rank 0 did not increase CR, then if the crab has it the kitten-that-shall-not-be-named should too.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 02:53 PM
For an equal CR, and thus supposedly equal challenge, the template-abusing Pseudo-natural monstrous (beast) multiheaded kitten of legend is probably more than a worthy foe, as it does not in fact need a natural 20 to hit the crab under most circumstances.

The only thing I will say is that if divine rank 0 did not increase CR, then if the crab has it the kitten-that-shall-not-be-named should too.

Sure, but then you've got to stick to two templates and DvR 0 too. :smallbiggrin:

martyboy74
2007-09-25, 03:06 PM
Sure, but then you've got to stick to two templates and DvR 0 too. :smallbiggrin:

Sure, because a kitten and That Damn Crab are equal to start with. :smallamused:

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 03:06 PM
Sure, but then you've got to stick to two templates and DvR 0 too. :smallbiggrin:

I think that it has been demonstrated that the two-template limit for a kitten leaves it well below the CR, and thus supposed power level, of the PPDC. Yes, the crab would win, but it wouldn't prove much.

I could come up with a creature with only two templates who I think would beat the crab, but I wouldn't start with a kitten. And that kind of defeats the purpose of it.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 03:09 PM
I think that it has been demonstrated that the two-template limit for a kitten leaves it well below the CR, and thus supposed power level, of the PPDC. Yes, the crab would win, but it wouldn't prove much.

I could come up with a creature with only two templates who I think would beat the crab, but I wouldn't start with a kitten. And that kind of defeats the purpose of it.
True, true.

Besides, DPPDC isn't exactly a good measure of CR.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 03:10 PM
I totally need a DPPDC avatar now.

Your welcome for planting that insane thought in your mind, lemme know if you get one cause I wanna see it.

GoC
2007-09-25, 04:53 PM
DPPDC has an AC of 86 (touch 51, flat-footed 73). Kitty can't hit him but on a nat 20.

I was talking about Zincorium's kitten.
I'd need 256 of my kittens to get to your crab's CR.
How much do you want to bet that 256 kittens can't beat your crab?:smallamused:

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 04:58 PM
I was talking about Zincorium's kitten.
I'd need 256 of my kittens to get to your crab's CR.
How much do you want to bet that 256 kittens can't beat your crab?:smallamused:

DPPDC can use mass drown to kill them all at once.

tannish2
2007-09-25, 05:06 PM
I was talking about Zincorium's kitten.
I'd need 256 of my kittens to get to your crab's CR.
How much do you want to bet that 256 kittens can't beat your crab?:smallamused:

hhhmmm... well i think if the kitten was templated up to the CR of the crab (or within 2) it would kick the **** out of it. OH! or add ninja levels. possibly awakened kitten? with nonassociated epic wizard levels?

GoC
2007-09-25, 05:58 PM
DPPDC can use mass drown to kill them all at once.

Mass Drown allows fort saves (+26 to fort:smallbiggrin: ) and this kitten has 18 Int so he's got the brains to realise that forming a ring 120ft in diameter (double charge distance minus 60ft) around the crab and then charging is the safest policy.

tannish2: In what book is ninja?
Awaken sounds good (especialy the +2 hd bit). What's the CR increase?
25 levels in wizard? With his Con and AC? Kickarse!:smallbiggrin:

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 07:05 PM
Mass Drown allows fort saves (+26 to fort:smallbiggrin: ) and this kitten has 18 Int so he's got the brains to realise that forming a ring 120ft in diameter (double charge distance minus 60ft) around the crab and then charging is the safest policy.

Perhaps...but does the kitten realize the the DPPDC even have spell-like abilities or that they might be able to kill all of them at once?

Plus theres the fact you still need multiple kittens and templates to take down the mighty Crab-God!

GoC
2007-09-25, 07:20 PM
Perhaps...but does the kitten realize the the DPPDC even have spell-like abilities or that they might be able to kill all of them at once?
There are plenty of spells with area of effect and that crab is pretty wierd.


Plus theres the fact you still need multiple kittens and templates to take down the mighty Crab-God!
Change "and" to "or" and that statement will be accurate.
This kitten only has CR 17. Of course it would lose to a CR 33 unless it gets a numerical advantage!
Might as well say that a lvl1 commoner can't beat a Planetar, Marut or Greater Stone Golem.:smallannoyed:
btw: Did you know that the crab-god has two templates himself?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 07:26 PM
For an equal CR, and thus supposedly equal challenge, the template-abusing Pseudo-natural monstrous (beast) multiheaded kitten of legend is probably more than a worthy foe, as it does not in fact need a natural 20 to hit the crab under most circumstances.

The only thing I will say is that if divine rank 0 did not increase CR, then if the crab has it the kitten-that-shall-not-be-named should too.

Honestly, I'd say they're pretty evenly matched. It'd probably come down to die rolls. If DPPDC could get a healthy grapple off, followed with an SLA or two, it could win. However, if he were to lose grapple and be unable to regain, it'd probably spell doom.

Arakune
2007-09-25, 07:34 PM
anyone tough about a Titanic Multi-headed (+8 heads min) Pseudo-natural Paragon Chicken ? It could be the Chickenmat

....
2007-09-25, 07:36 PM
Just use these stats for a bunny rabbit and unleash it on a level 5-10 party. They'll never see it comming!

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 07:41 PM
There are plenty of spells with area of effect and that crab is pretty wierd.

A mimic is pretty weird to, but it doesn't have spell-like abilities. Assuming the normal rolls to identify a bit of useful information about a creature, and going by the tradition of MM big bad special attacks like the rotting constriction would come first. Now the DC to even get this information would be 26 (DPPDC's CR+10) and the Kitten only has +10 in any given knowledge skill. Doable, yes. But as stated above, big and threatening attacks are better known so no specifics about SLA yet. DC goes up to 31 for the next bit of useful information, which the kitten...can't get. It has no way to get past that first knowledge check that generally only reveals a creature's name and most devastating natural attack. Remember, no such thing as critical success on a skill check with normal RAW (Critical success on skills is an optional rule)



Change "and" to "or" and that statement will be accurate.
This kitten only has CR 17. Of course it would lose to a CR 33 unless it gets a numerical advantage!
Might as well say that a lvl1 commoner can't beat a Planetar, Marut or Greater Stone Golem.:smallannoyed:
btw: Did you know that the crab-god has two templates himself?

Wait, which kitten are you talking about? I thought you were talking about the CR 40 Titanic Legendary Pseudonatural Paragon Kitten...which now that I think about it doesn't make sense giving that one numerical advantage when fighting DPPDC.

In the first case (CR 17, numerical advantage) DPPDC would most likely feast on kitty flesh that night. Not only would each kitten need to figure out Mass Drown might be a signifigant problem (Which is hard as shown above), but their generally weaker then DPPDC, as should be expected from a much lower CR creature.

As for the second CR 40 kitten, I was speaking of the fact it had twice the number of templates as DPPDC (1 1/2 if you count DvR 0) and even then DPPDC still has a chance of winning. Wasn't it mentioned above that people were trying to stick to the same number of templates? (And that such an excercise would be pointless since TDC is simply a better base creature to be enhancing in the first place)

...Yes I know Crabthulhu has two templates, their in it's name after all.

Arakune
2007-09-25, 08:04 PM
stuff


Wait, which kitten are you talking about? I thought you were talking about the CR 40 Titanic Legendary Pseudonatural Paragon Kitten...which now that I think about it doesn't make sense giving that one numerical advantage when fighting DPPDC.

stuff

As for the second CR 40 kitten, I was speaking of the fact it had twice the number of templates as DPPDC (1 1/2 if you count DvR 0) and even then DPPDC still has a chance of winning. Wasn't it mentioned above that people were trying to stick to the same number of templates? (And that such an excercise would be pointless since TDC is simply a better base creature to be enhancing in the first place)

...Yes I know Crabthulhu has two templates, their in it's name after all.

I know, I already said it's a shame for the kitty, but you must consider that was a DAMN crab to start of at a relatively low CR. Also, that always on haste, 9 feats to spare and that absurd damage output can still make an even fight, although the DPPDC wins since he have more charisma (not the stat).

GoC
2007-09-25, 08:13 PM
Honestly, I'd say they're pretty evenly matched. It'd probably come down to die rolls. If DPPDC could get a healthy grapple off, followed with an SLA or two, it could win. However, if he were to lose grapple and be unable to regain, it'd probably spell doom.

Huh?:smallconfused:
The crab has a grapple of +12(BAB)+26(Str)+8(size)=+46.
The Zincorium cat has +55(BAB)+29(Str)+12(size)=+96.

What SLA works against something with Fort + 67 Ref + 40 Will +28 and immunity to mind affecting effects?

Callos_DeTerran: *sigh*
You're right about the knowledge check in theory but failed to take into account:
+4 Int bonus and 256 checks means 1 will succeed.
Reason. Most really smart (18 Int) people would realize that when faced with something strange and unknown it's best to play it safe and assume it has some nasty area attack (there are tons of these and the kitten would know of at least 1).


In the first case (CR 17, numerical advantage) DPPDC would most likely feast on kitty flesh that night. Not only would each kitten need to figure out Mass Drown might be a signifigant problem (Which is hard as shown above), but their generally weaker then DPPDC, as should be expected from a much lower CR creature.
A. They can share information (bonus languages+telepathy).
B. The save DC for Mass Drown is 32 and the kitten has +27 Fort save.

The kitten that was being refered to was Zincronium's (click on sig), not either of those.

Sorry if I come off as harsh. I just really like that Kitten of Doom(TM).
VIVA THE KITTEN!!!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I think Zincronium got the BAB wrong. Moster of Legend changes type to outsider but you don't recalculate BAB, saves or hp.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 08:35 PM
Callos_DeTerran: *sigh*
You're right about the knowledge check in theory but failed to take into account:
+4 Int bonus and 256 checks means 1 will succeed.
Reason. Most really smart (18 Int) people would realize that when faced with something strange and unknown it's best to play it safe and assume it has some nasty area attack (there are tons of these and the kitten would know of at least 1).

Huh, and here I had thought the +4 intelligence bonus was accounted for in the skill bonus part of the kitten. That should probably be corrected, and I still stand by my theory. I haven't seen many examples where SLA abilities are revealed in the first or second check but if I'm wrong by all means lemme know. (Though if it's a monster that just has SLA going for it, thats not a good example considering all the abilities the Kittne and DPPDC have.)

Also, while 1 may succeed it A). might not get the SLA info (addressed above) and B). if they do fail may not consider the fact the crab may have some nasty area attack.* Look closely at the DPPDC avatar of Fax's...it's not an exact representation of the DPPDC but doesn't it look an awful lot like a chuul? Chuul's don't have nasty area attacks and it's entirely possible one might mistake the DPPDC for chuul, however briefly.

*Some of the real smart PC's (and players) in my own group don't just assume that a big unknown beasty has a nasty area attack cause there are a few that don't...but do have the melee ability to rip to shreds a PC who moved away from the group to avoid a potenial nasty AoE ability.
A. The can share information (bonus languages+telepathy).
B. The save DC for Mass Drown is 32 and the kitten has +27 Fort save.


The kitten that was being refered to was Zincronium's (click on sig), not either of those.

Sorry if I come off as harsh. I just really like that Kitten of Doom(TM).
VIVA THE KITTEN!!!:smallbiggrin:

Don't worry about, I just really like the DPPDC. Long live the Crab-God! (If one can't notice the various DPPDC platitudes in his thread and self-proclaimed cleric hood to DPPDC)

Fax Celestis
2007-09-25, 08:36 PM
The crab has a grapple of +12(BAB)+26(Str)+8(size)=+46.

Wrong. DPPDC's grapple check is higher than that.

12 (BAB) + 26 (Str) + 8 (size) + 4 (Imp. Grapple) + 13 (Constrict special quality augmented by the Paragon template) + 25 (Paragon) + 15 (Pseudonatural) + 4 (Powerful Claws ability...that, for some reason, is not listed, but is on the original creature) = +107

Douglas
2007-09-25, 08:50 PM
Mass Drown is targeted. The Kitten has constant Spell Turning. Need I say more on this subject?

Dairun Cates
2007-09-25, 08:57 PM
Don't know if this has been brought up, but doesn't power word kill go through spell turning and still kill this thing? I'm honestly curious. Been a while since I've mucked about in high level spell-casting.

Edit: For the record, I'm not endorsing power word killing kittens for fun, sport, and exp.

GoC
2007-09-25, 08:58 PM
Wrong. DPPDC's grapple check is higher than that.

12 (BAB) + 26 (Str) + 8 (size) + 4 (Imp. Grapple) + 13 (Constrict special quality augmented by the Paragon template) + 25 (Paragon) + 15 (Pseudonatural) + 4 (Powerful Claws ability...that, for some reason, is not listed, but is on the original creature) = +107


A paragon creature makes all its attacks with a +25 luck bonus on the attack roll.
I don't think a grapple counts as an "attack" in this context and it seems very unlikely that it'd allow BOTH of the paragon bonuses to stack.

A paragon creature’s special attacks, if any, all gain a +13 insight bonus, if applicable. The +13 insight bonus may only be applied to a given special ability once.
You'de probably only get this one but the wording is ambiguous....

And even if it did you've got two insight bonuses there. One from "+ 13 (Constrict special quality augmented by the Paragon template)" and one from "+ 15 (Pseudonatural)". So you'd end up at +94 and the cat would end up at +111 and would take improved grapple for +115 rendering it immune to your grapple!:smallbiggrin:

Dairun Cates: Yes. It's a targeted spell.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 09:06 PM
EDIT: I think Zincronium got the BAB wrong. Moster of Legend changes type to outsider but you don't recalculate BAB, saves or hp.

Monster of legend isn't where it gets full BAB, both monstrous beast and multiheaded change the type of an animal to magical beast, and lack the caveat. Magical beasts do have full BAB and d10 HD, which is part of what I was going for.

And in a grapple, cat has a great many more grapple checks it can make on it's round due to the much higher BAB, and it can take a lot more constitution damage without dying than the crab can. Plus, if it gets a full attack off, there is not much the crab can do to save itself. The strength damage from it's poison, which the crab cannot except by a natural 20 succeed on the DC, will reduce the crab's strength tremendously.

Edit:

Don't know if this has been brought up, but doesn't power word kill go through spell turning and still kill this thing? I'm honestly curious. Been a while since I've mucked about in high level spell-casting.

Edit: For the record, I'm not endorsing power word killing kittens for fun, sport, and exp.

Spell resistance still applies. And the cat-which-shall-not-be-named has frickin' 275 spell resistance. Even epic that's mind-numbingly hard, and in epic you'd be much better off creating a version of it that doesn't allow spell resistance.

GoC
2007-09-25, 09:12 PM
And in a grapple, cat has a great many more grapple checks it can make on it's round due to the much higher BAB, and it can take a lot more constitution damage without dying than the crab can. Plus, if it gets a full attack off, there is not much the crab can do to save itself. The strength damage from it's poison, which the crab cannot except by a natural 20 succeed on the DC, will reduce the crab's strength tremendously.

And of course the 90d6 breath weapon with no save... :smalltongue:

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 09:21 PM
And of course the 90d6 breath weapon with no save... :smalltongue:

96d6, and it does have a reflex save for half...but it's DC 70. Still, improved evasion would apply, if the crab had it.

BardicDuelist
2007-09-25, 09:30 PM
If by wrong you mean AWESOME, maybe.

You could drop it in a big city and let it knock buildings down while using them as scratching posts.

When I was in first grade, my favorite book was called "Catzilla"....

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 09:30 PM
Monster of legend isn't where it gets full BAB, both monstrous beast and multiheaded change the type of an animal to magical beast, and lack the caveat. Magical beasts do have full BAB and d10 HD, which is part of what I was going for.

And in a grapple, cat has a great many more grapple checks it can make on it's round due to the much higher BAB, and it can take a lot more constitution damage without dying than the crab can. Plus, if it gets a full attack off, there is not much the crab can do to save itself. The strength damage from it's poison, which the crab cannot except by a natural 20 succeed on the DC, will reduce the crab's strength tremendously.

*cough* DPPDC is immune to ability damage and ability drain.

Zincorium
2007-09-25, 09:32 PM
*cough* DPPDC is immune to ability damage and ability drain.

Only using the divine version.

And seriously, are you going to argue that Divine rank, of any variety, is a +0 CR addition?

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-25, 10:05 PM
Only using the divine version.

And seriously, are you going to argue that Divine rank, of any variety, is a +0 CR addition?

No, no I shall not argue that Divine rank is a +0 CR...I will argue that it's starting to get hard to keep track of which verison of the kitten-who-shall-not-be-named and which verison of Crabthulhu is battling each other. x.x

tannish2
2007-09-26, 12:42 AM
well doesnt the kitten have an insane hide modifier and pounce ability? so wouldnt that the kitten ALWAYS gets off a full attack on the crab? with 50000000000000000000000000000000000 attacks a round (exaggeration) it would essentially have a win button.

The Glyphstone
2007-09-26, 05:13 AM
When I was in first grade, my favorite book was called "Catzilla"....

I actually owned a copy of that once...and its companion Dogzilla....ah, good times...:smallbiggrin:

GoC
2008-03-20, 01:38 PM
I've changed a few things in the first post. Is this an improvement or worse than the original?

Roderick_BR
2008-03-20, 01:46 PM
A level 17 Swordsage can kill it automatically in 1 round with Inferno Blast. It's not a spell so SR doesn't matter, it hits everything within 60 feet so he doesn't have to see the kitten, and even on a successful save it's still 50 fire damage, which drops the kitten to... -9. Ok, so he needs something else to do that last 1 point of damage before fast healing kicks in, but that shouldn't be hard.
If you need a 17th level swordsage infernoblasting to kill it... :smalleek:

Frosty
2008-03-20, 02:15 PM
Hey, where did the old kitty picture go? That one was much better!

puppyavenger
2008-03-20, 02:34 PM
When I was in first grade, my favorite book was called "Catzilla"....

isn't Catkong and Dogzilla? I only read Dogzilla.
"PUPPIES!"

GoC
2008-03-20, 02:41 PM
Hey, where did the old kitty picture go? That one was much better!

It was too similar to the superkitty one. Any other pics for it? Any here (http://images.google.com.co/images?q=kitten&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1) that you like?

SamTheCleric
2008-03-20, 02:42 PM
Page 2, last image... the blonde in the cat ears. :smallbiggrin:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 03:25 PM
So you are using a Homebrew Template that adds 4HD and assorted special abilities for only +5CR? And you don't find that a little overblown?

Persuasive is a terrible Feat too. Surely there is something actually worth having for your feat slot?

For the Super Kitty, I'd say advance CR as if increasing the HD first, then add the CR for the template. Not that it matters, because homebrew templates are all either useless for their CR (because they didn't want to be viewed as making something too powerful) or way overpowered (because they just want templates that make them happy.)

Zincorium
2008-03-20, 03:51 PM
For the Super Kitty, I'd say advance CR as if increasing the HD first, then add the CR for the template. Not that it matters, because homebrew templates are all either useless for their CR (because they didn't want to be viewed as making something too powerful) or way overpowered (because they just want templates that make them happy.)

All templates are like that, seriously, homebrew just means it's up for judgement in that category.

It's pretty much impossible to ever get the CR perfect- The CR increase in this particular example requires a bit of testing but seems about right at first glance.

GoC
2008-03-20, 04:15 PM
So you are using a Homebrew Template that adds 4HD and assorted special abilities for only +5CR? And you don't find that a little overblown?
Well advancing 4 hitdice would give +1 CR. Do you really think the other abilities are worth +4 CR?


Persuasive is a terrible Feat too. Surely there is something actually worth having for your feat slot?
Like what?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 04:45 PM
Well advancing 4 hitdice would give +1 CR. Do you really think the other abilities are worth +4 CR?

1) Actually, it doesn't say what type of HD so any intelligent creature could grab 4 levels of Swordsage or Cleric or whatever for practically nothing in CR increase.

2) Yes I do think it's other abilities are worth +4 CR

3) This and PPDC are based off of huge stacking bonuses to attributes and derived stats making up for fundamental CR deficiencies in HD. That sort of compounding produces creatures where 1HD equates to about 40HP. Yeah I think such changes warrant a revaluation of how much each HD is worth.


Like what?

Improved Natural Attack? Multi Attack?

GoC
2008-03-20, 05:26 PM
1) Actually, it doesn't say what type of HD so any intelligent creature could grab 4 levels of Swordsage or Cleric or whatever for practically nothing in CR increase.
True but I'm not abusing it am I?


3) This and PPDC are based off of huge stacking bonuses to attributes and derived stats making up for fundamental CR deficiencies in HD. That sort of compounding produces creatures where 1HD equates to about 40HP. Yeah I think such changes warrant a revaluation of how much each HD is worth.
Complain about this to WotC.


Improved Natural Attack? Multi Attack?
Please. +1 to damage when it's already got +30 in each paw?
Multi Attack looks ok though.

I still need a better kitten pic!

Aindriahhn
2009-03-18, 07:47 PM
Very cool!

Heliomance
2009-03-19, 05:44 AM
Has everyone forgotten about Snuggles, our Overkitty?

mistformsquirrl
2009-03-19, 05:55 AM
Ahaha, I like this <,<

Lord Kitteh, Conquerer of the Tunabowl, King of the Bathroom, Destroyer of Toilet Paper Rolls

Thane of Fife
2009-03-19, 06:35 AM
Has everyone forgotten about Snuggles, our Overkitty?

I was beginning to worry that nobody would mention him.