Monk/rogue: how much of each is best?

[sengmeng]

I have a Halfling rogue 2/monk 2, and I'm not really sure which one to level up next, or how far. Really I want to be a stealthy damage dealer, but not be useless if it turns into a toe-to-toe fight. So maybe half and half? And I'm,open to archetype suggestions too.

[Misterwhisper]

I have a Halfling rogue 2/monk 2, and I'm not really sure which one to level up next, or how far. Really I want to be a stealthy damage dealer, but not be useless if it turns into a toe-to-toe fight. So maybe half and half? And I'm,open to archetype suggestions too.

Very important question first, did you roll for stats or point buy?

[CTurbo]

I recommend either ONLY 2 Monk levels for unarmored defense and extra movement, or go mostly Monk for all the other Monk stuff.

A Monk really benefits from a small Rogue dip, but a Rogue doesn't have quite as much to gain from a small Monk dip.

I don't really recommend the split class option as you won't have enough ki to really enjoy the Monk features.

[sengmeng]

Very important question first, did you roll for stats or point buy?

Str 10
Dex 18
Con 12
Wis 13
Int 10
Cha 10

Wouldn't the scores be more useful to know than how they were derived?

[RogueJK]

I definitely wouldn't go half and half. You need to decide if you want to be more of a Rogue, or more of a Monk, then take just a few levels of the other class. Personally, I think a Monk with a Rogue dip is vastly superior to a Rogue with a Monk dip.

A Monk with 3 levels of Rogue is a nice combo. You get all the great Monk goodies, plus a Rogue skill, Expertise, 2d6 Sneak Attack, Cunning Action, and the first set of Rogue Archetype bonuses. If building from the ground up, I would have gotten straight to Monk 5 or 6 first, and then looked at taking 3 levels of Rogue. But as it is, I would go Monk for the next several levels to Rogue2/Monk5 or Monk6, and then take Rogue 3 once you hit Monk 5 or 6. After that, it's all Monk from there.

(The reason for Monk 5 or even 6 is that you definitely want to pick up a Stunning Strike and Extra Attack ASAP, and depending on your Monk subclass, you may want to push for Monk 6 too, to get something like Shadow Monk's Shadow Step ability ASAP.)

As for Monk subclasses, Shadow Monk is very strong with a 3 level Rogue dip, using Shadow Step's teleportation to generate Advantage and land Sneak Attacks, and using the Shadow Arts spells to cause distractions, boost Stealth rolls, and drop Silence or Darkness on enemies. You're basically a Ninja.

For Rogue subclasses, Assassin would work nicely together with Shadow Monk, for even greater damage during stealthy ambushes from the shadows. Or the Thief's Second Story Work ability would also mesh nicely with the Monk's Step of the Wind feature, both of which would offset your low STR score when it comes to jumping, meaning less damage potential than an Assassin, but you'd be better at exploring.

[RogueJK]

Also note that you'll want to boost your 13 WIS with some of your ASIs. You'll want to get your WIS up to 16 at a minimum, and preferably 18 or even 20 once you've gotten DEX to 20. Not only does it make your harder to hit by adding to your AC, but it also governs your Save DC for Stunning Strike, which is one of the Monk's most powerful abilities. You're going to get hit more, and fail at Stuns more, than the average Monk until you get your WIS up.

I'd go +2 WIS at Monk4, then +1 DEX/+1 WIS at Monk 8, then a +1 DEX feat like Squat Nimbleness at Monk 12, and +2 WIS at Monk 16.

Or alternately, if you don't have Perception proficiency and have access to UA feats, go with a +1 WIS feat like Perceptive at Monk 4, then +2 WIS at Monk 8, then +2 DEX at Monk 12, and +2 WIS at Monk 16.

With your WIS being that low, it may even be worth picking up Rogue 4 just for the easy access to another ASI. Something like R2/M2 > R2/M6 > R4/M6 > R4/M16 That'd get your an extra ASI along the way, allow you to get your WIS up a bit faster, and eventually boost both DEX and WIS to 20.

[Misterwhisper]

With those stats I wouldn’t have taken monk at all.

[sengmeng]

Thanks for the prompt answers, all. I've looked at a few more archetypes, and I think monk 5/rogue 15 is best for my playstyle, with open hand and scout archetypes. Monk 5 means extra attack, 1d6 for unarmed strike (and monk weapons, which a dagger is) and stunning strike to chain sneak attacks, and open hand is great for knocking prone and battle field control. Plus a halfling chucking someone across the room is hilarious. The scout archetype gets more mobility, attack as a bonus action, and multiple sneak attacks per round if you have multiple targets. What I really want, though, is single target spike damage, so if some other combo gets me there, I'm all ears.


With those stats I wouldn’t have taken monk at all.

It was partly role-playing and partly I just like being almost completely independent of items (just daggers for SA).

[RogueJK]

Scout won't get you bonus attacks or multiple Sneak Attacks per round. That's their Level 17 Sudden Strike ability, and you'll only make it to 15 with a Rogue 15/Monk 5 build.

Also keep in mind that the Open Hand Technique Prone or Push effects rely on your Monk Save DC, which like Stunning Strike will be low until you boost your 13 WIS with several ASIs.

You'll also only ever have 5 Ki points at a time with that build, which will run out very quickly throughout the adventuring day, since you have a ton of Ki-dependent abilities all competing for your miniscule Ki pool. (Even straight Monks tend to run out of Ki in big fights.) Your Ki will be needed for:
-Stunning Strike
-Step of the Wind
-Patient Defense
-Flurry of Blows for Open Hand Push/Prone/Deny Reaction

Several of these can be stacked, to spend multiple Ki each round, like doing a Flurry of Blows (1 Ki) to attempt to stun on all four attacks (up to 4 more Ki). That means you could easily burn all your Ki in just one round. Yes, that's an extreme example, but needing to stun 3-4 enemies at a time is a definite possibility (and a useful Monk tactic), as is having to burn several Ki at a time against a single enemy just to get a Stun to stick, especially with your low DC from your low WIS.

Even if you don't spend any extra Ki on Stuns, you're still only looking at being able to attempt an Open Hand Push/Prone/Deny Reaction five rounds total before your Ki runs out, because it requires spending 1 Ki on Flurry of Blows to trigger those effects.

You're welcome to do as you'd like, but I think you'll be hamstringing your character by going that route, and you'll likely end up disappointed by having all these cool things to do, but not anywhere near enough Ki to fuel them.

[bid]

With those stats I wouldn’t have taken monk at all.
Pretty much. You need Wis14 to match the AC of studded leather and have access to the martial arts feature.

[Snowbluff]

A Monk really benefits from a small Rogue dip, but a Rogue doesn't have quite as much to gain from a small Monk dip.

Or take monk 5, get extra attack. That's always extra swell, especially if you can get 2 shortsword hits (which can Sneak Attack) then throw in a bonus action punch.

[djreynolds]

I would go 17 open hand/ 3 swashubuckler... you get the benefits of the mobile feat with fancy footwork-this build will want more wisdom

You could go 6 shadow monk (no reason for 7 because you'll get evasion from rogue)/ 14 arcane archer (very ninja, toss is warlock for a few levels)- this build could go a 14 in wisdom

[CTurbo]

I kind of agree that I wouldn't have taken any Monk levels with those scores, but it could work out still. You'll absolutely want to bump Wis up as quick as you can though. Scout is fun to mix with Monk. I think I'd go Scout 3, Monk 17 (or Scout 5/Monk 15) using all ASIs on Dex and Wis. With all that extra Monk movement, you'll be able to move far away with your Scout Skirmisher ability, and you'll have plenty ki to be able to do Monk things.



One of my next characters will be an Aarakocra Open Hand Monk with 3-5 levels of Scout Rogue and the Mobile feat. I will literally be able to fly away everytime an enemy ends their turn next to me.

[OctaviOz]

What I really want, though, is single target spike damage, so if some other combo gets me there, I'm all ears.

(just daggers for SA).

Monk is never going to be the best class to mix if you want the BEST single target spike damage but with the right build you can still be pretty decent.

Rogue 3 (assassin)
- Sneak attack (just remember this only counts with your main weapon attacks (short sword etc) as flurry-of-blows is unarmed only
- Cunning action (always useful)
- Assassinate (the key to spike dam) for the auto crits on all attacks in your first turn (also have advantage) as long as you go first

Monk 17 (shadow)
- 4 attacks per round (from Monk 5) with flurry of blows (potentially all crits from Assassinate) that can also stun
- Shadow Arts for cool spell effects darkness/silence etc
- Shadow Step for super-ninja advantage attacks
- Cloak of shadows for no-cost 1 action invisibility
- Diamond Soul at monk 14 is awesome

If I was looking for a Monk that could get in/out and Nova like crazy this is what I would build. 4x advantage attacks with auto-crits is super cool. As you REALLY need to go first to maximise this build I would definately look at getting the alert-feat.

At levl 8 (5 monk/3 rogue) you should be able to hit 4 times in the first round (assuming +4 dex mod and advantage on all attacks). Auto crit on all attacks, thats 12d6 + 16 = 58 damage in the first round. Almost guaranteed they are also stunned if not already dead.

Good luck!

[Misterwhisper]

The problem with the monk/rogue combo is that monk does not need rogue for anything really but an expertise, and that is not worth losing monk levels for.

- you can’t sneak attack unarmed or with a spear or quarterstaff, which is what most Monks use.

- you don’t need bonus action disengage, open hand and drunken master already get it with flurry, shadow can just shadow jump.

- Monks get great abilities all the way through and can spend ki like crazy, along with monk damage scaling on monk levels, watering them down is not worth it.

On the surface monk and rogue seem like they would work great together being all about dex and things but they really don’t.

[CTurbo]

The problem with the monk/rogue combo is that monk does not need rogue for anything really but an expertise, and that is not worth losing monk levels for.

- you can’t sneak attack unarmed or with a spear or quarterstaff, which is what most Monks use.

- you don’t need bonus action disengage, open hand and drunken master already get it with flurry, shadow can just shadow jump.

- Monks get great abilities all the way through and can spend ki like crazy, along with monk damage scaling on monk levels, watering them down is not worth it.

On the surface monk and rogue seem like they would work great together being all about dex and things but they really don’t.

Sorry can't agree with all of that. I DO agree with the bold part. To get the most out of the Monk, you need as much ki as you can get. That doesn't mean that small dips don't help improve certain aspects though. I still think 3 levels of Gloom Stalker or Hunter are best, but any Monk can greatly benefit from Cunning Action. I'd say that the 2 level investment would be well worth all the ki you'd save throughout your career by not having to spend it on dashing and disengaging. Many Monks use daggers or short swords so many Monks will and do benefit from some extra sneak damage.