Bloodlines counts towards ECL by RAW! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

HouseRules

2019-01-21, 03:51 PM

Effective Character Level (ECL): A creature's effective character level is the sum of its level adjustment, Hit Dice, and class levels. Use character level for all game functions except awarding experience, determining starting equipment, and determining how much experience the character needs to gain a new level. All three of those functions use effective character level instead.

Effective Character Level (ECL): This number represents a creature’s overall power relative to that of a character from the Player’s Handbook. A creature with an ECL of 10 is roughly equivalent to a 10th-level character. A creature’s ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).
Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

Crake

2019-01-21, 03:53 PM

This argument has been done to death, people have picked their sides by this point, and little, if nothing is going to persuade them, so I'm not sure what your plan is for this thread.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 05:42 AM

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.

ShurikVch

2019-01-22, 06:04 AM

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.So true!

For example, they're not just commonly using 3.0 version of Energy Substitution feat (nothing wrong with it, I'm preferring some 3.0 stuff over 3.5 versions too), but have the audacity to insist the mechanics, actually, really doesn't changed since 3.0 at all - even when provided with highlighted quotes!

Crake

2019-01-22, 06:23 AM

I keep forgetting that this is a RAI forum that always makes RAI even when RAW is placed in front of them.

You know there are people on both sides of this argument, right? There are probably also a few people like me who see that either a) they don't add to ECL and are overly strong, or b) they do add to ECL are are incredibly bad, and thus just decide not to use them at all, because in either case they're bad for the game.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 07:30 AM

So true!

For example, they're not just commonly using 3.0 version of Energy Substitution feat (nothing wrong with it, I'm preferring some 3.0 stuff over 3.5 versions too), but have the audacity to insist the mechanics, actually, really doesn't changed since 3.0 at all - even when provided with highlighted quotes!

My Greatest House Rule:
Anything in 3.0 is always in play unless 3.5 overrules it. However, anything in 3.0 that is omitted in 3.5 is still in play, such as Prestige Classes need to

Satisfy Prerequisites at all Levels
Does not have XP Penalty

Premium Edition is 3.75.

Bloodlines are suppose to work with Level Adjustment buy offs.

noob

2019-01-22, 07:34 AM

My Greatest House Rule:
Anything in 3.0 is always in play unless 3.5 overrules it. However, anything in 3.0 that is omitted in 3.5 is still in play, such as Prestige Classes need to

Satisfy Prerequisites at all Levels
Does not have XP Penalty

Premium Edition is 3.75.

Does not have XP Penalty

Written on the 3.5 srd.

Also do you lose your prcs when you are hit by stat drain that makes you stop qualifying for the prerequisite feats?
That could be complex as heck when the monster hits with stat drain and that you have to recalculate 20 things because you are no longer filling all the prerequisites for prc 1 which prevents you from taking prc 3 but not prc 2 and so on and which ends up making an loop for which you calculate the limit of the loop then by the time you calculated all that the undead says sorry and goes away crying?

OgresAreCute

2019-01-22, 07:38 AM

You know there are people on both sides of this argument, right? There are probably also a few people like me who see that either a) they don't add to ECL and are overly strong, or b) they do add to ECL are are incredibly bad, and thus just decide not to use them at all, because in either case they're bad for the game.

ECL-related mechanics end up in that situation a bit often for my tastes, like cohorts can't catch up after buying off LA since their new, lower level means they get less XP. You could, however, get a cohort with his LA already bought off and XP caught up. So it ends up in this situation where the cost is either overly punishing or completely free, which I don't think is a good idea.

Personally, I hate bloodlines because they basically add nothing. Their abilities are pretty much total rubbish, even if you get 20 levels "worth" of abilities for 3 actual levels. Sorry, WotC, but "+2 to diplomacy with Silver Dragons" is never a worthwhile ability. I think it could be salvageable if they had actually worthwhile abilities and maybe added some kind of hit die when you took a level in it too.

noob

2019-01-22, 07:44 AM

ECL-related mechanics end up in that situation a bit often for my tastes, like cohorts can't catch up after buying off LA since their new, lower level means they get less XP. You could, however, get a cohort with his LA already bought off and XP caught up. So it ends up in this situation where the cost is either overly punishing or completely free, which I don't think is a good idea.

Personally, I hate bloodlines because they basically add nothing. Their abilities are pretty much total rubbish, even if you get 20 levels "worth" of abilities for 3 actual levels. Sorry, WotC, but "+2 to diplomacy with Silver Dragons" is never a worthwhile ability. I think it could be salvageable if they had actually worthwhile abilities and maybe added some kind of hit die when you took a level in it too.
The titan bloodline is one bloodline that have a worthwhile ability: you can use gargantuan hammers even if you are fine sized so you can get all the punch while being small and sealthy.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 07:44 AM

It does not matter that bloodline is relatively useless. It is useful because they count as Hit Dice (while not giving any actual hit die, but counts towards skill cap), and Caster Level to all Spellcaster Classes, and anything else scale-able by level.

Even if bloodline is relatively useless, Mundane is also relatively useless. If you say one, why not the other?

Edit: Old School has a term for ECL: Adjusted Hit Dice. Yeah, the concept that casters are stronger than Mundane requires monster's Hit Dice to be adjusted for the calculation of experience.

noob

2019-01-22, 07:49 AM

It does not matter that bloodline is relatively useless. It is useful because they count as Hit Dice (while not giving any actual hit die, but counts towards skill cap), and Caster Level to all Spellcaster Classes.

Even if bloodline is relatively useless, Mundane is also relatively useless. If you say one, why not the other?
bloodlines progress any class feature you have as if you had a bunch of extra levels in it(but it does not gives you extra class features) so it does not progress only spellcaster level: it would also progress the boost in ac from the monk class feature and a bunch of other things like that.

Master O'Laughs

2019-01-22, 07:57 AM

From what I gather (since I had just made a thread about it), if you were doing something like a Supermount build, or you had several instances sneak attack, it could help tremendously.

Crake

2019-01-22, 08:15 AM

Bloodlines are suppose to work with Level Adjustment buy offs.

Can you point out where it says anywhere that bloodlines are supposed to work with LA? Or are you doing what you just had a go at the rest of the forum for doing, making RAI assumptions?

For a system that increases certain things as if you had a higher HD, like skill cap, caster level, and other class related abilities, like advancing initiator level by 1/2, I wouldn't allow bloodline "LA" buyoff any more than I'd allow RHD buyoff. But at the same time, I don't use bloodlines because they're poorly conceived and even more poorly written.

Bronk

2019-01-22, 10:32 AM

Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

I guess 12 replies means we're doing this?

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does

That's what you were missing. It's followed by a number of paragraphs that don't include ECL or LA.

As written, bloodlines are awesome. There's no limit to how many you can take, and the way XP works, you can technically get them all for free. But, as always, and especially for variant rules, individual DMs can implement bloodlines in their game - or not - whichever way they think is best.

zlefin

2019-01-22, 10:43 AM

Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level.

are you looking for a debate?
just making a public service announcement?
trying to assert your opinion is correct?
or something else?
i.e. what is your goal for this thread?

KillianHawkeye

2019-01-22, 11:10 AM

If they're specially called out as not increasing character level, then they don't increase effective character level either. Full stop.

ECL = Character Level + Level Adjustment.

Uncle Pine

2019-01-22, 11:26 AM

The titan bloodline is one bloodline that have a worthwhile ability: you can use gargantuan hammers even if you are fine sized so you can get all the punch while being small and sealthy.

You can also do that by casting Enlarge Weapon (CS) while wielding a sizing warhammer and then activating the sizing ability. The two main differences being that this can be done with any type and size of weapon (not just Gargantuan warhammers) and that you either need to persist Enlarge Weapon or use a standard and swift action to activate the combo.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 11:48 AM

By RAW:

The Object of X Volume fits into Y Space for Z Size Category.

SizeVolumeSpace
Fine0.5-foot cube0.5-foot square
Diminutive1-foot cube1-foot square
Tiny2-foot cube2.5-foot square
Small4-foot cube5-foot square
Medium8-foot cube5-foot square
Large16-foot cube10-foot square
Huge32-foot cube15-foot square
Gargantuan64-foot cube20-foot square
Colossal128-foot cube30-foot square

Yes, you could fit those larger objects into a smaller space than them.

Mechanical Units of Measures
Thickness of Materials: multiples of 1 inch.
Height: 1 foot.
Distance: 5 foot.

Ruethgar

2019-01-22, 12:40 PM

The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

ECL is neither an ability nor entirely level based so it is not affected.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 03:14 PM

3.0 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level + Level Adjustment

3.5 Rules Effective Character Level = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level) + Level Adjustment

Hit Dice (including Class Level) = Hit Dice + Class Level - (Overlap between HD and Class Level)

Some Class Levels gives Hit Dice, and others do not. The issues is that Hit Dice is the sum of Racial Hit Dice and Class Level Hit Dice leads to double counting in Savage Species definition even though examples does not double count, the definition could be interpreted to include double counting.

noob

2019-01-22, 03:32 PM

Do not forget that racial hit dice is just levels into a class that have no class features.

Buufreak

2019-01-22, 04:04 PM

So you even directly quoted the line about bloodline levels not increasing character level as other levels do, but still are going to pick this fight and call people out as RAI supporters when they don't agree with you? Yeah, that's a great way to win an argument.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 04:28 PM

Buufreak

2019-01-22, 04:35 PM

Right, and the text you quoted legitimately reads "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does." It is blatantly explaining how there is a difference, and that they do not count towards "class level," which as you are arguing (rather abrasively) is the term used when describing ECL.

Further, if you really want to get into the specifics, ECL is defined as Effective Character Level, so trying to argue that it only refers to class levels is faulty in basis. For further reading, feel free to bounce over to the online glossary available here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_effectivecharacterlevel&alpha=)

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 04:43 PM

KillianHawkeye

2019-01-22, 04:52 PM

RAW still defines as CLASS LEVEL, not CHARACTER LEVEL.

And character level is defined as racial Hit Dice plus class levels. Bloodline levels are specifically stated to be class levels that don't add to character level. Ergo, they do not add to ECL.

Continuing to shout about this will not make you right.

I can't believe I have to argue about RAW with a guy who calls himself HouseRules. :smallsigh:

Buufreak

2019-01-22, 04:55 PM

Whelp, I tried. I even gave a direct link to the actual rules text and definitions. If you can't accept that, not much to do here but walk away. Take care with that chip on your shoulder, though, eventually someone will flick it clean off and then gods know what you'll have to do then.

HouseRules

2019-01-22, 05:08 PM

A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Nope: Character Level = sum of class level exclusively. No Racial Hit Dice is involved in the glossary definition.

flappeercraft

2019-01-22, 05:31 PM

"Blood Lines are class levels and class levels are part of Effective Character Level." -House Rules

I guess 12 replies means we're doing this?

"Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does" -UA

That's what you were missing. It's followed by a number of paragraphs that don't include ECL or LA.

As written, bloodlines are awesome. There's no limit to how many you can take, and the way XP works, you can technically get them all for free. But, as always, and especially for variant rules, individual DMs can implement bloodlines in their game - or not - whichever way they think is best.

IMO this is what it means as per RAW. You add all class levels to ECL as a general rule. However, specific trumps general and there is a specific rule with bloodlines that makes them not progress character level like regular classes do, relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.

KillianHawkeye

2019-01-22, 05:44 PM

Nope: Character Level = sum of class level exclusively. No Racial Hit Dice is involved in the glossary definition.

Page 290 of the Monster Manual 3.5 says that racial Hit Dice are considered levels in a creature's "monster class", and also references the general multi-classing rules on pages 59-60 of the Player's Handbook for monsters who gain levels in a character class.

PHB page 59 defines character level as a character's total number of levels.

If I were to be as pedantic as you, I'll point out that the PHB glossary also states that there are only eleven character classes for players. The definition, if you can't understand, has no information that isn't relevant to the basic PC races and classes in the Player's Handbook. For creatures with racial Hit Dice, you have to consult the Monster Manual. The same is true of the definition of character level. For creatures with no racial Hit Dice, character level is only their levels in character classes. For monsters, it also includes their racial Hit Dice or "monster class".

That's as simple as I can break it down for you. If you still don't get it, then there's no helping you. This conversation has already wasted enough of my time, so I'll wish you good luck in the future finding people who agree with you.

grarrrg

2019-01-22, 07:13 PM

relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.relevant quotes in the quoted post, however I had to add them in since you can't keep quotes in another quote.
You can, you just have to do it manually.

flappeercraft

2019-01-22, 08:12 PM

You can, you just have to do it manually.

Huh, I have tried that before and it didn't work. I guess I must have typed something wrong in the quoting.

ShurikVch

2019-01-23, 04:14 AM

If they're specially called out as not increasing character level, then they don't increase effective character level either. Full stop.It's blatantly wrong: when a 5th-level Human Warrior turns into Vampire, his Character Level stays the same - 5, but his Effective Character Level (ECL) skyrockets into 13

So, despite the RAW for Bloodlines says it doesn't increases Character Level, we still should count it towards ECL - because it didn't says we shouldn't

HouseRules

2019-01-23, 07:54 AM

Racial Level Adjustments are also Class Levels that do not give Character Levels. Bloodline Class Levels are not the only Class Levels that do not give Character Levels.

Bronk

2019-01-23, 09:44 AM

It's blatantly wrong: when a 5th-level Human Warrior turns into Vampire, his Character Level stays the same - 5, but his Effective Character Level (ECL) skyrockets into 13

So, despite the RAW for Bloodlines says it doesn't increases Character Level, we still should count it towards ECL - because it didn't says we shouldn't

I think it's just the opposite... it says it doesn't count as a normal character level, then lists things it does count for. ECL isn't one of those things. That's also RAI, since the tables for major bloodlines show a clear non-epic progression to level 20.

zlefin

2019-01-23, 10:19 AM

ok, so the evidence/text seems pretty clear that OP was just plain wrong; and possibly looking to pick a fight (and definitely didn't clarify what their actual goal for the thread was). thanks all for the insight, good to have clarity when it comes up in my games and this will illuminate them.

ShurikVch

2019-01-23, 11:32 AM

I think it's just the opposite... it says it doesn't count as a normal character level, then lists things it does count for. ECL isn't one of those things.Care to quote?..
Actually, no need - I will do it:
Include the character’s bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levelsIMHO, you're using your class level to calculate your ECL

That's also RAI, since the tables for major bloodlines show a clear non-epic progression to level 20.It's because Bloodlines are "Level Adjustment with class features and increased skill ranks cap"
Over the course of his career, a character with a bloodline becomes more powerful than one without a bloodline. Because the power gain is gradual over a span of twenty levels, a static level adjustment doesn't truly reflect this difference. instead, a bloodline character must take one or more levels of "bloodline" at various points in his career, as noted on Table: Bloodline Levels. Before a character with a bloodline reaches the indicated character level, he must take one class level of "bloodline." Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below).

Ruethgar

2019-01-23, 12:20 PM

That sentence is literally about how it is not level adjustment, and how in the nine hells are you contorting your view to think that ECL is an ability?

ShurikVch

2019-01-23, 01:40 PM

That sentence is literally about how it is not level adjustmentCorrection: not static level adjustment

and how in the nine hells are you contorting your view to think that ECL is an ability?D&D 3.X have major troubles with a definition of "ability"
Basically, either almost anything is ability, or almost everything isn't (see the definition of Ability (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ability&alpha=) :smallwink:)

Morty

2019-01-23, 02:02 PM

I'm kind of wondering how many people actually use bloodlines enough for this to be relevant.

noob

2019-01-23, 02:14 PM

Some people use them to have one class feature working as if they were 60 levels higher but only in TO
Then there is the people who likes the titan bloodline.

Ruethgar

2019-01-23, 05:27 PM

Correction: not static level adjustment

‘Bob is not a specialist wizard.’ Doesn’t automatically make him a wizard. You’re taking an interpreted implication and treating it as an explicit statement.

D&D 3.X have major troubles with a definition of "ability"
Basically, either almost anything is ability, or almost everything isn't (see the definition of Ability (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ability&alpha=) :smallwink:)

There is the difference in ability/ability/Ability and ability. Since this doesn’t use ability/ability/Ability, and the term is a common word, it can’t be assumed that the glossary definition is in play thus falling to English: talent, skill, or proficiency in a particular area, natural aptitude or acquired proficiency. CL, IL, ML can all easily be attributed to as proficiency in a particular area, and hellfire blast is obviously able to be categorized as a talent or skill as another example. However ECL doesn’t fit neatly into that definition and falls into your interpretation to make it fit, not what is written.

Also, D&D is a rules by allowance game. The text for Bloodline is clear that they don’t act as normal class levels, as has been pointed out multiple times now. This means that any and all rules not mentioned have already been voided, such as the levels adding to ECL.

HouseRules

2019-01-23, 05:54 PM

‘Bob is not a specialist wizard.’ Doesn’t automatically make him a wizard. You’re taking an interpreted implication and treating it as an explicit statement.

Class Levels of Bloodlines does not increase Character Level does not automatically mean it does not increase ECL unless BOB is automatically not a wizard is an equivalent analogy.

Let's say Bob is a Generalist Wizard. You say Bob is not a Conjurer so Bob is not a Wizard. Which is equivalent to Bloodline Class Levels are not Character Levels so they are not Effective Character Level.

Bob is a Generalist Wizard = Bloodline Class Levels are Class Levels.
Bob is not a Conjurer = Bloodline Class Levels are not Character Levels.
Bob is not a Wizard = Bloodline Class Levels are not Effective Character Levels.

Buufreak

2019-01-23, 08:48 PM

Can I just say how much it makes me laugh when someone who blatantly doesn't speak English as a first language tries to argue semantics and syntax?

Ruethgar

2019-01-24, 10:04 AM

I believe you missed the point. You were saying that Bloodline levels are level adjustment because a sentences says they aren’t static level adjustment.

Bloodline levels are class levels, but with everything stripped away from what that means except as noted, such as the lack of mention of its effects on ECL.