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Shoyliguad
2007-09-24, 05:31 PM
So me and my friend where playing gestalt and he made a bard... and it kicks ass... I mean the concept is amazing. He was level 20 and was a Grig/bard/siren/dirgesinger/ranger... He could throw out 10 times a day a song of stone and everything in the area has to make a DC 37 will save or die. Annoyed? Power word kill. Uhoh big bad balor died and so did the tank? And theres another balor? Song of awakening on the balor, oooh look balor fight. ohh yeah he has 50 skill mod in perform, song of horror anyone? DC 60 save or 1d6 str dmg and 1d6 dex dmg... I can go on. He is amazing. I learned that bards are the most under appreciated class ever. They aren't these little guys who can convince anyone, no they are killing machines...

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 05:35 PM
Edit that so there is grammar, please.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 05:38 PM
To quote from the CharOp boards: "The old-fashioned notion that the bard is underpowered has long since fallen out of style here."

In fact, in the "top 10 most powerful classes" polls on CharOp, the bard was often clocking in right after the Big Four (before things like the Beguiler, Warblade, and so forth). The fact that he did so much worse in the general polls seems rather indicative that he's still underestimated.

Anyways, if you know what you're doing and have the right supplements, Bards can be pretty monstrous, because supplements have given them a lot of love. And Fascinate/Suggestion was uber ever since core.


Edit that so there is grammar, please.

Agreed, please write so that we have some idea what you're saying.

continuumc
2007-09-24, 05:39 PM
hmm, I don't know about you'r friend's bard or his abilities. But bard's are certainly underappreciated. It is infact, one of my favorite classes. Just last night my level 8 fighter, level 4 bard character killed the DM's main boss: A level 14 Sorceror (assisted by two Erinyes) using the lowest level Bardic music effects: Fascinate.

The boss was being the usual "arrogant" villain, even being so gracious as to allow me to approach him when I quick drew my masterwork mandolin and fascinated him. The rest of the party dealt with the erinyes while I approached him, stopped playing and grappled him. Then while I held him, they tied and gagged him. A sorcerer isn't hard to kill once bound and gagged. A level 14 sorcerer, brought down by a level 1 Bardic ability. That had to hurt his pride.

Stormcrow
2007-09-24, 05:39 PM
I'll second that.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 05:41 PM
weakest of Bardic music effects: Fascinate. ...You're calling Fascinate WEAKEST? :smalleek:

Are you nuts? That thing will bring wyrms to their knees at low level! It's much closer to broken than weak, having a DC based on your *perform check* (i.e. the enemy generally just fails horribly) and allowing just about as many free suggestions as you want.

On the contrary, many will tell you it's easily the *strongest* bardic music effect, probably followed by Inspire Courage.

Talk about hurting pride... a bard with fascinate can make it entirely possible to trounce *every* encounter susceptible to fascinate/suggestion or diplomacy without the rest of the party ever having to raise a finger. It can get pretty ridiculous (and heck, I've heard of it banned in organized D&D tourneys that allow just about any level of powergaming, but I've never participated in those and that's just hearsay on my part)

ocato
2007-09-24, 05:43 PM
I was going to chime in but... you already know how I feel.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 05:43 PM
I was going to chime in but... you already know how I feel.

No I don't. :smallfrown:

But I can guess :smallwink:

continuumc
2007-09-24, 05:45 PM
*coughs* let me reiterate that (and i'll do it in my post above) I mistyped; I meant to say "one of the lowest level bardic abilities", not weakest.

ocato
2007-09-24, 05:45 PM
I like bards.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 05:48 PM
I like bards.

As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-09-24, 05:48 PM
Grig/bard/siren/dirgesinger/ranger
I don't know what a Grig/siren/dirgesinger is but a character with so many classes hardly qualifies as a bard in my book, regardless of how good the bard is, this does not serve as a argument why a bard would be powerfull.
Also if the build involved a ranger I have a hard time imagining it was optimised.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 05:49 PM
As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:

*thinks REALLY hard.* Uhhh... Uhhhhhhhmmmmmm... Bicentennial anniversaries? :smallbiggrin:

continuumc
2007-09-24, 05:50 PM
Well, is a fighter with fighter prestige classes not still a fighter?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 05:50 PM
*thinks REALLY* hard. Uhhh... Uhhhhhhhmmmmmm... Bicentennial anniversaries?

In-correct. You are the weakest link. Goodbye. :smalltongue:

continuumc
2007-09-24, 05:51 PM
As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:


Sadism? err..I meant, drow. yeah, that's what I meant to say. :smallamused:

Shas aia Toriia
2007-09-24, 05:51 PM
Fax, as evidenced by your sig, it is "Frostwind Virago". However, I have no idea what that means. Could you tell me what it is?

My avatar is my level 16 elven favoured soul, Shas'aia Toriia.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 05:52 PM
In-correct. You are the weakest link. Goodbye. :smalltongue:

But... but I was going to use the prize money to support the Money For Children Orphaned By Peloran Clerical Errors fund! :smallfrown:

Rowanomicon
2007-09-24, 05:52 PM
I still prefer to play a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer (specializing in enchantment).

Fax Celestis
2007-09-24, 05:59 PM
Fax, as evidenced by your sig, it is "Frostwind Virago". However, I have no idea what that means. Could you tell me what it is?

My avatar is my level 16 elven favoured soul, Shas'aia Toriia.

Frostwind Virago is a monster in MM-V. See? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070713a)

Zherog
2007-09-24, 05:59 PM
I don't know what a Grig/siren/dirgesinger is but a character with so many classes hardly qualifies as a bard in my book, regardless of how good the bard is, this does not serve as a argument why a bard would be powerfull.
Also if the build involved a ranger I have a hard time imagining it was optimised.

He mentioned in the first post that it was a gestalt build. Which, frankly, probably had a lot to do with the uberness of the character.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 06:05 PM
How To Put The Fear Of Singing Things Into People:

Let's take a party with three bards. "Oh snap, now won't that suck?" say the people who couldn't optimize a club out of a gatling gun. "No, it won't," says I.

So. Bard 1 kills people with two weapons. Bard 2 kills people with killer spells. Bard 3 sings more than Bards 1 and 2 and has more skills and stuff.

Bard 1 takes Song of the White Raven to progress her bardic abilities while taking either Warblade or Crusader levels. She also takes Dragonfire Inspiration, because she thinks dragons are cool. End result is a lady with 9th level maneuvers who gives +12d6 energy damage to *all* her allies' attacks for the entire duration of the fight, while still allowing her to do 600 damage on a full attack with her two weapons.

Bard 2 takes War Weaver and a 2 level Sublime Chord dip, and ends up with 9th level spells and the ability to cast spells of up to fifth level to affect *the entire party*. In round one, she unloads at least 2 powerful buffs into the whole party, or can unload 1 or 2 and then make a powerful 9th level spell offense, or can just cast time stop and give like 10 uberbuffs to the whole party. Whatever.

Bard 3 sings for +12 attack and damage with Inspire Courage, to all of her allies' attacks. She also has mad skillz (including the ability to handle traps and stuff), and some extra special songs, and can set up two of these a round. Bard 3 can actually totally just be a straight Bard 20 (with the variant that gives trapfinding)

Now then... these sisters three can also fascinate you with an arbitrarily high save DC. They also all have great skills, especially social skills, and basically can make anyone play into the palm of their hands. And of course, they've got huge stacking buffs they're all giving each other *while dishing out pain.* They're a pretty formidable team all on their own.

However, if even ONE of them takes Leadership (if you want to break out the game's most broken feat)... well, we're talking about *all* of those level 1 commoners and warriors getting +12 attack and damage, +12d6 energy damage, war weaver buffs, and hey, if we give Bard 3 the War Chanter PrC... they get full BAB and all the iterative attacks too. You're looking at an army of *level 1 characters* with about +34/+29/+24/+19 to hit, 14d6+14 damage, and then *war weaver spells on top of that.* Now imagine them ALL taking Leadership. And their cohorts, instead of just their level 1 expendables... (average damage is going to be around 56 *per follower* *per attack* before they even try to use something like power attack or a buff spell or a full attack with +34/+29/+24/+19. So with Leadership, every Bard will have 163 followers with around +36 to attack on a charge. Meaning 3 bards with 489 followers, each of which can be expected to do 56 damage in their own right. Now use White Raven maneuvers from Bard 1 and laugh hysterically as the world's nations fall before your onslaught of mightily inspired peasants)

Oh, and yes, this team functions at lower levels too. ^^
The point is, bards own. And not only can they own, but they can own at *every party role.*

"Who said bards suck?" The sisters challenge.
*Deathly Silence is their only answer.*

continuumc
2007-09-24, 06:11 PM
Bards are still amazing, gestalt or otherwise. I think the real reason why people don't appreciate their power as much is that most people do not like to play supportive roles: I.E. Clerics and bards. They prefer to be the fighters, rogues, or wizards that deal all the damage and get all the glory. I enjoy playing clerics and rogues because, 1. you still get to occasionally claim some glory if you know how to play them and 2. when all the glory-claiming is said and done: A. either the bard had a strong hand in helping everyone achieve far more than they otherwise could have or B. everyone turns to the Cleric and says "That hurt, how about some of those delicious cure spells"


Bards are still awesome, but not normally in such a potent killing manner. But I don't think anyone can deny the awesomeness that is properly used bardic music. :-p

Solo
2007-09-24, 06:12 PM
I still prefer to play a Fighter/Rogue/Sorcerer (specializing in enchantment).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/toddsun/Blasphemy.jpg

continuumc
2007-09-24, 06:14 PM
Points up at onewinged: err...what you said. heh.

ocato
2007-09-24, 06:44 PM
Well, Dirgesinger is bardy and siren sounds bardy, so I'll allow it.

Rowanomicon
2007-09-24, 07:24 PM
Haha, Solo, I was joking.
I've always loved Bards (and Clerics for that matter).
Needless to say that got me more popularity around the table then my dark Wizard and my uber-archer combined.
"Supporting" for the win!

Mojo_Rat
2007-09-24, 07:45 PM
I love bards. I decided when we did our next game I was going to make a social oriented character and after some deliberation between a Bard and a modified aristocrat I settled on a bard.

I really love the character I found when we were in the cities basically i was the person to come to for everything. If you want it found sold seduced or discovered my bard was the person.

But Right now in our game were somewhere that only 1 pc speaks the language of those were encountering and i noticed a huge shift in my iinvolvement with these scenes.

I think this is why some people foolishly think bards are weak. Because the focus of the campaign if it never involves socialization or interacting with stuff outside o combat. Or very little out of combat then You can feel weak..

But the character is only level 5 so it may change for me later on. I have a whip and im not afraid to use it!

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 07:53 PM
Points up at onewinged: err...what you said. heh.

:smallcool:

ocato
2007-09-24, 08:07 PM
I love bards. I decided when we did our next game I was going to make a social oriented character and after some deliberation between a Bard and a modified aristocrat I settled on a bard.

I really love the character I found when we were in the cities basically i was the person to come to for everything. If you want it found sold seduced or discovered my bard was the person.

But Right now in our game were somewhere that only 1 pc speaks the language of those were encountering and i noticed a huge shift in my iinvolvement with these scenes.

I think this is why some people foolishly think bards are weak. Because the focus of the campaign if it never involves socialization or interacting with stuff outside o combat. Or very little out of combat then You can feel weak..

But the character is only level 5 so it may change for me later on. I have a whip and im not afraid to use it!

Yes, Bards are very good at social scenarios, but they are not pidgeonholed into that one task. They are capable of fighting (not rogue fighting or Barbarian fighting per se, because those guys also get PrCs and have tricks, so the uber bard set ups that we all love to cook up are not the same as saying who needs a leap barb, its a team game... wow this is a long parenthetical apositive.) and contrary to popular belief, are useful in a fight. Even if it's just setting up flanks and buffing better melele characters/ back line defending casters.

TO_Incognito
2007-09-24, 08:10 PM
On a related note, has anyone here ever played a Jester from Dragon Compendium? Says it originated in Dragon #60, but I'm thinking that in Dragon #60 it wasn't a 3rd Edition class (=.

Barbolanero
2007-09-24, 08:25 PM
I think this is why some people foolishly think bards are weak. Because the focus of the campaign if it never involves socialization or interacting with stuff outside o combat. Or very little out of combat then You can feel weak..


Yeah, my DM's have always love to just put fight after fight, and I still always like to play bard-like characters, they are just too much fun, even if that particular character is pretty much useless. For my next D&D IŽll play a bisexual elf bard with a whip, just for the laughs!!! :smalltongue:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 08:30 PM
Yes, Bards are very good at social scenarios, but they are not pidgeonholed into that one task. They are capable of fighting (not rogue fighting or Barbarian fighting per se, because those guys also get PrCs and have tricks, so the uber bard set ups that we all love to cook up are not the same as saying who needs a leap barb, its a team game... wow this is a long parenthetical apositive.) and contrary to popular belief, are useful in a fight. Even if it's just setting up flanks and buffing better melele characters/ back line defending casters.

Setting up flanks does not count as being useful in a fight. Ever. Seriously, a commoner can do that.

That's not to say, though, that bards can't rock out in melee. Actually, I can think of a few different builds off the top of my head that will make the party barbarian quite jealous, such as the aforementioned Song of the White Raven bard mixed with Crusader and Warblade that grabs ninth level maneuvers in addition to badass melee power songs for things like +12d6 energy damage to the whole party. Or the old bardadin Cha-bonus-stacker.

Even a basic, straight up bard, however, can be great in combat, if not necessarily melee. A stacked up Inspire Courage (there's a good number of cheap and available things that provide stacking bonuses to it) will give your party a substantial advantage in combat, and of course the bard's spells (Otto's Irresistible Dance, for example, is one of the most dangerous spells in the game since it allows no save) and UMD are not to be underestimated (particularly with Magic Savant, where you'll never fail UMD checks ever).

BardicDuelist
2007-09-24, 08:41 PM
I was going to chime in but... you already know how I feel.

Ditto. I mean...well Bards are my fav.

Aquillion
2007-09-24, 08:56 PM
Bards are still amazing, gestalt or otherwise. I think the real reason why people don't appreciate their power as much is that most people do not like to play supportive roles: I.E. Clerics and bards.I think it's more that Bards are a very, very easy class to play badly. Many people, playing a Bard, make the mistake of using only one side of their abilities--they just play a caster, or they just sing, or they try and fight or play a skill-monkey. This works with a Druid because all their abilities are uber, but with a bard you end up being an underpowered caster, or an underpowered fighter, or whatever.

Another major problem is that people tend to overuse the Bard's "inspire" songs. These have their uses, certainly, but they shouldn't be anyone's main thing in battle, and bards who use it constantly are going to seem like they suck. Even if you step back and add the total damage added to a battle by one of those songs, it can't generally compare to a haste or the output of a single barbarian full attack. Worse, those songs are generally difficult to optimize or even improve in any meaningful way... sure, your party can happen to be using builds that get lots of attacks to benefit from the bonus damage, but even then it isn't much.

They do have their uses, but in my experience most newbie bards use them waaaay too much when they could be doing much more helpful things with their other abilities.

Kompera
2007-09-24, 10:43 PM
Setting up flanks does not count as being useful in a fight. Ever. Seriously, a commoner can do that.But most battles don't have a few handy commoners who are willing to jump within reach of the BBEG and his +23 Flaming Toothpick of Doom(tm) to provide a flank bonus to Our Heroes. And a player who is tactically aware and able to carry out their primary role while simultaneously providing a flank bonus to one of the melee types is ok (and therefore useful) in my book. :smallbiggrin:

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-24, 11:03 PM
But most battles don't have a few handy commoners who are willing to jump within reach of the BBEG and his +23 Flaming Toothpick of Doom(tm) to provide a flank bonus to Our Heroes. And a player who is tactically aware and able to carry out their primary role while simultaneously providing a flank bonus to one of the melee types is ok (and therefore useful) in my book. :smallbiggrin:

What I was saying was "if your primary contribution to the party is flanking, then some might ask why you're being paid more than 1sp per day."

Callos_DeTerran
2007-09-24, 11:17 PM
On a related note, has anyone here ever played a Jester from Dragon Compendium? Says it originated in Dragon #60, but I'm thinking that in Dragon #60 it wasn't a 3rd Edition class (=.

No, but I so want to play an evil Jester. It originated in Dragon #330 by the way.:smallwink:

But thats just like me wanting to play a Bard/Seeker of the Song/Dirgesinger/Storm Singer (Frostburn bard PrC). I still have to come up with a background to justify a bard who can kill magic/shoot fire/raise dead/impose penalties/create storms with just music but I'd love to play a combination like that. ...Mostly to prove my group wrong that bards aren't usable.

Chronos
2007-09-24, 11:22 PM
Quoth Fax Celestis:
Now, what does my avatar say I like?Spellthieves?

But on the subject at hand, a bard has a place in any party of any size other than four. In a small party, the bard's versatility is unmatched. And in a large party, his buffing abilities can quickly reach insane levels of power. OneWinged4ngel has already mentioned what a bard can do with a few hundred followers... Now think what that same bard can do with a few thousand. Inspire Courage will add its bonus to all allies who can hear it, which could easily be an entire army. Plus, you get that versatility kicking in again: A bard isn't a great mage, but he can make the party's mage a better mage. He's not a great warrior, but he can make the party's warrior a better warrior. He's not a great rogue, but he can make the party's rogue a better rogue, and so on.

skywalker
2007-09-24, 11:28 PM
As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:

I was gonna say pretty girls.

:smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

Guy_Whozevl
2007-09-24, 11:33 PM
Bards are extremely fun to roleplay, moreso than any other class. The fact that they have the the three gamebraking features (Bluff, Diplocheese, and Facinate) helps.

dyslexicfaser
2007-09-25, 12:25 AM
As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:

Judging by your avatar's hat... Russians.


Bards are extremely fun to roleplay, moreso than any other class. The fact that they have the the three gamebraking features (Bluff, Diplocheese, and Facinate) helps.
I tend to think that roleplaying has more to do with fluff than mechanics.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-25, 12:47 AM
I have to disagree with you, dyslexicman.

Fluff is variable and can be changed according to mechanics. You can roleplay a Cleric and a Wizard identically and both will have the "crunch" to back the result.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-25, 02:58 AM
Quoth Fax Celestis:Spellthieves?

But on the subject at hand, a bard has a place in any party of any size other than four. That's just silly. A bard has a place in a party of 4. Anyone who tells you otherwise is leading you astray. See my above example with bards filling every role quite well (indeed, they can fight better than a fighter or cast better than a sorceror with the right build.)

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-25, 03:02 AM
A bard isn't a great mage A bard with 9th level spells from the wizard spell list and war weaves isn't a great mage? Heck, it's just about the gold standard on the CharOp boards for the best buffer-caster *in D&D.*


He's not a great warrior A bard doing 600 damage a round in melee's not a great warrior? What about when he's got 9th level maneuvers along with his 20th level bard songs and +12d6 Dragonfire Inspiration? What about the Bardadin?


He's not a great rogue, but he can make the party's rogue a better rogue, and so on.

He certainly has the class skills to be a great skill monkey, and he's better at the diplomatic skills than any other single class. On top of that, I believe there is a variant where they get trapfinding (just can't seem to remember offhand where it *is*...)

Cogwheel
2007-09-25, 04:16 AM
Dungeonscape, I'd guess. Also, might I ask how you got to 12d6? Not saying it isn't possible, just wondering, since I don't know any ways to boost inspire courage.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-25, 04:41 AM
Dungeonscape, I'd guess. Also, might I ask how you got to 12d6? Not saying it isn't possible, just wondering, since I don't know any ways to boost inspire courage.

Well, lessee...

You get +4 normally, +4 again from Words of Creation, +1 from Inspirational Boost, +1 from Vest of Legends, +1 from CA Masterwork Instrument, +1 from Badge of Valor, and +1 from Song of the Heart. So you can actually get +13 like that...

Also, besides Vest of Legends, all of those are readily available earlier than level 8 for a minimum expenditure of resources.

KIDS
2007-09-25, 04:52 AM
Fascinate is nowhere near as broken as people think. In fact, most of its "brokeness" springs from the fact that DMs allow it to be used in combat, which directly goes against its "must not be threatened or attacked" line. Otherwise it's a nice social ability with very strong save.

Bard favors a lot of thinking and a malleable DM (yes, malleable DM). Thinking ahead is a necessity because it's a class that is easy to screw up with wrong feat or spell choices. Also, while it's jack of all trades, ironically it suffers from multiclassing a lot, except in case of some specific combos. So my view, assuming you take at least several bard levels...

Core only bard: quite poor, irrelevant most of the time, grows slowly (this is a pain), but very good in social situations. So-so, you can have fun of course but it ends up quite underpowered.
Core+completes bard: add a class or PrC to the rescue, and you get a solid combatant or a spellcaster to aid in addition to said social capabilities. With some planning it can be very fun and good.
All books (regionals, campaign settings, tomes, completes, etc etc.): very good. See builds presented above, the books together allow you a wide variety of concepts with some thinking and that's why I like them, it is easy to stay true to your concept and still play the class you like.

The fighter undergoes the same metamorphosis as bard does as transition from core to many books is done.

Cogwheel
2007-09-25, 05:15 AM
Well, lessee...

You get +4 normally, +4 again from Words of Creation, +1 from Inspirational Boost, +1 from Vest of Legends, +1 from CA Masterwork Instrument, +1 from Badge of Valor, and +1 from Song of the Heart. So you can actually get +13 like that...

Also, besides Vest of Legends, all of those are readily available earlier than level 8 for a minimum expenditure of resources.

Thanks! Alas, even if it buffs the save bonus against fear, badge of valor doesn't work on the attack/damage bonus bit. The rest, however, seems kosher enough. If it's not too much trouble for you, could you PM me with the stats for the Vest of Legends? Thanks a bunch:smallsmile:.

Oh, and I am now determined to make a draconic dragonfire/inspire courage based lizardfolk melee bard, with full crusader levels, or possibly warblade, and maybe mix some war chanter in. The major difference being, ofcourse, that I'll try to use all this without breaking it quite as much. his instrument of choice, by the way, will be war drums:smallbiggrin:.

Shoyliguad
2007-09-25, 05:28 AM
He is still a bard because its gestalt and he's a level 20 one at that... The ranger was because he had a level to spare for back story purposes.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-25, 05:55 AM
To quote from the CharOp boards: "The old-fashioned notion that the bard is underpowered has long since fallen out of style here."

Does anyone have links for that? The best I can find on the CharOp boards is two Bard Guides from 2003, which are still very much old-fashioned.

ocato
2007-09-25, 07:13 AM
I too would like to see some links, I'm curious.

Launchpad
2007-09-25, 10:31 AM
So me and my friend where playing gestalt and he made a bard... and it kicks ass... I mean the concept is amazing. He was level 20 and was a Grig/bard/siren/dirgesinger/ranger... He could throw out 10 times a day a song of stone and everything in the area has to make a DC 37 will save or die. Annoyed? Power word kill. Uhoh big bad balor died and so did the tank? And theres another balor? Song of awakening on the balor, oooh look balor fight. ohh yeah he has 50 skill mod in perform, song of horror anyone? DC 60 save or 1d6 str dmg and 1d6 dex dmg... I can go on. He is amazing. I learned that bards are the most under appreciated class ever. They aren't these little guys who can convince anyone, no they are killing machines...

I agree that Bards can be amazing, but some things in this example seem wrong (or sounded just to easy to get) to me
(some houserules in there?):

1) The save for Song Of Stone is a fortitude save. And getting the DC to 37 requires a Charisma of 40. Needs some focus to get that.

2) A Balor explodes when it dies. So no awakening here. And killing Balors or tanks with Power Word Kill requires some work beforehand.
Normally those have more than 100 HP. Sounded a bit to easy in your example.

3) The save for Song of Horror is 10+ranks in perform, not 10+total perform modifier.
So the maximum DC for a level 20 charakter would be 33.

4) I hope your friend used "enemy only"-sound effects for the Song Of Stone and Song Of Death effects (you must use them with other sound effects. Not on their own)... or are your safes good enough to survive those?

5) What happend with the Grigs LA+3 ? Got lost in gestalt? The exact levels in the classes would be nice to know...


I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant or something like that...
Its still a powerfull concept your friend build.

Solo
2007-09-25, 10:37 AM
A bard with 9th level spells from the wizard spell list and war weaves isn't a great mage? Heck, it's just about the gold standard on the CharOp boards for the best buffer-caster *in D&D.*

A bard doing 600 damage a round in melee's not a great warrior? What about when he's got 9th level maneuvers along with his 20th level bard songs and +12d6 Dragonfire Inspiration? What about the Bardadin?


While you could optimize any class to become brokenly good, it doesn't mean that that class itself is necessarily a good class. It just means you can make a good build using that class.

I notice, though, a lot of the good bard build rely on multiclassing out of Bard, or getting into PrCs, while clerics, wizards, and Druids don't need to do that to stay compeditive.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-25, 10:42 AM
How To Put The Fear Of Singing Things Into People:

Let's take a party with three bards. "Oh snap, now won't that suck?" say the people who couldn't optimize a club out of a gatling gun. "No, it won't," says I.

So. Bard 1 kills people with two weapons. Bard 2 kills people with killer spells. Bard 3 sings more than Bards 1 and 2 and has more skills and stuff.

Bard 1 takes Song of the White Raven to progress her bardic abilities while taking either Warblade or Crusader levels. She also takes Dragonfire Inspiration, because she thinks dragons are cool. End result is a lady with 9th level maneuvers who gives +12d6 energy damage to *all* her allies' attacks for the entire duration of the fight, while still allowing her to do 600 damage on a full attack with her two weapons.

Bard 2 takes War Weaver and a 2 level Sublime Chord dip, and ends up with 9th level spells and the ability to cast spells of up to fifth level to affect *the entire party*. In round one, she unloads at least 2 powerful buffs into the whole party, or can unload 1 or 2 and then make a powerful 9th level spell offense, or can just cast time stop and give like 10 uberbuffs to the whole party. Whatever.

Bard 3 sings for +12 attack and damage with Inspire Courage, to all of her allies' attacks. She also has mad skillz (including the ability to handle traps and stuff), and some extra special songs, and can set up two of these a round. Bard 3 can actually totally just be a straight Bard 20 (with the variant that gives trapfinding)

Now then... these sisters three can also fascinate you with an arbitrarily high save DC. They also all have great skills, especially social skills, and basically can make anyone play into the palm of their hands. And of course, they've got huge stacking buffs they're all giving each other *while dishing out pain.* They're a pretty formidable team all on their own.

However, if even ONE of them takes Leadership (if you want to break out the game's most broken feat)... well, we're talking about *all* of those level 1 commoners and warriors getting +12 attack and damage, +12d6 energy damage, war weaver buffs, and hey, if we give Bard 3 the War Chanter PrC... they get full BAB and all the iterative attacks too. You're looking at an army of *level 1 characters* with about +34/+29/+24/+19 to hit, 14d6+14 damage, and then *war weaver spells on top of that.* Now imagine them ALL taking Leadership. And their cohorts, instead of just their level 1 expendables... (average damage is going to be around 56 *per follower* *per attack* before they even try to use something like power attack or a buff spell or a full attack with +34/+29/+24/+19. So with Leadership, every Bard will have 163 followers with around +36 to attack on a charge. Meaning 3 bards with 489 followers, each of which can be expected to do 56 damage in their own right. Now use White Raven maneuvers from Bard 1 and laugh hysterically as the world's nations fall before your onslaught of mightily inspired peasants)

Oh, and yes, this team functions at lower levels too. ^^
The point is, bards own. And not only can they own, but they can own at *every party role.*

"Who said bards suck?" The sisters challenge.
*Deathly Silence is their only answer.*

ie, bards are only good if you spend a $100 on splat books, and end up with a character with no more than 5 bard levels. It also only works good once you hit level 20.

Mmmmkay.

LCR
2007-09-25, 11:11 AM
As evidenced by your avatar.

Now, what does my avatar say I like? :smallbiggrin:

Chubby, grey women?

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-25, 11:11 AM
ie, bards are only good if you spend a $100 on splat books, and end up with a character with no more than 5 bard levels. It also only works good once you hit level 20.

Mmmmkay.

Bards multiclass and Prestige class as much as any other characters do. The builds OneWinged mentions get their power fom one or two Splatbooks apiece, about what your Wizard will have if you've and optimization-focused group.

Tor the Fallen
2007-09-25, 11:15 AM
Bards multiclass and Prestige class as much as any other characters do. The builds OneWinged mentions get their power fom one or two Splatbooks apiece, about what your Wizard will have if you've and optimization-focused group.

Isn't the value of a class based on how little it needs to switch to other classes? Isn't that the definition of what makes a class good- taking levels in it?

From core, wiz, druid and cleric stay good, regardless of what PrC are out there. From ToB, you can pretty much stay straight 20.

Just because wizards have the option of using rainbow power doesn't make straight wizard any less weak, just as a fighter going into frenzied berserker doesn't actually make fighter better.

kjones
2007-09-25, 11:43 AM
I agree that Bards can be amazing, but some things in this example seem wrong (or sounded just to easy to get) to me
(some houserules in there?):

1) The save for Song Of Stone is a fortitude save. And getting the DC to 37 requires a Charisma of 40. Needs some focus to get that.

2) A Balor explodes when it dies. So no awakening here. And killing Balors or tanks with Power Word Kill requires some work beforehand.
Normally those have more than 100 HP. Sounded a bit to easy in your example.

3) The save for Song of Horror is 10+ranks in perform, not 10+total perform modifier.
So the maximum DC for a level 20 charakter would be 33.

4) I hope your friend used "enemy only"-sound effects for the Song Of Stone and Song Of Death effects (you must use them with other sound effects. Not on their own)... or are your safes good enough to survive those?

5) What happend with the Grigs LA+3 ? Got lost in gestalt? The exact levels in the classes would be nice to know...


I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant or something like that...
Its still a powerfull concept your friend build.

I was thinking some of these same things when I read this example. Though I'm unfamiliar with some of the specific examples, and obviously a gestalt character is going to be more powerful than a straight-up single or multiclass character, this is a bit over the top.

I would read up on the rules for all these specific effects to make sure my bookkeeping is in order.

Person_Man
2007-09-25, 12:05 PM
From a purely crunch perspective, Bards suffer from three big flaws:

1) You need supplements. A core only Bard is generally one of the weakest classes.

2) Choppy power progression. A first level Bard has 0th level spells, no damage bonuses, 0 BAB, can use music once per day, and lacks trapfinding. Once you hit ECL 6ish and pick up a good PrC, you'll be fine. But then when you hit high levels and have to compete with Time Stop like abilities, Bard builds sometimes (though not always) have a hard time again.

3) Their best abilities stop combat. This really isn't a flaw from my perspective, but I've heard this complaint repeatedly from some of my players. Winning a Diplomacy or Fascinate check is a great roleplaying opportunity for the Bard, but tends to be boring for everyone else. Players who use Bards tend to stop the normal flow of the game so that they can do their thing, and they do so often, even when its not normally called for (look, our arch-nemesis Bob the Balor - I bet I can Fascinate him then convince him to go back to the 9th pit). Again, as a DM I'm fine with this, because it encourages more roleplaying. But it takes away the spotlight from other players, and tends to drive more hack and slash minded players insane (Why did you convince Bob the Balor back to the pit! I want to kill him and take his stuff!)

None of these flaws are particularly compelling to me though. They're all solved quite easily:

1) Use supplements.

2) Stay back and provide support with your whip at low levels. Be smart about your feat selection. Build intelligently at mid-high levels.

3) Don't be a jerk to your fellow players. Talk to them before you do something.

Saph
2007-09-25, 12:17 PM
1) You need supplements. A core only Bard is generally one of the weakest classes.

2) Choppy power progression.

3) Their best abilities stop combat.

None of these flaws are particularly compelling to me though. They're all solved quite easily:

1) Use supplements . . .

Agree with your solutions to 2) and 3), but it's worth remembering that many D&D games don't use anything beyond the core rules and one or two splatbooks, and virtually no game uses absolutely everything. Splatbooks are expensive, after all*.

Having access to powerful prestige classes is nice, but for a class to be good it should be also be good straight-classed to 20 levels. I think in this regard classes like the ToB ones and the Duskblade are better models than the Bard, because they work great out of the box with nothing other than the book they come in.

- Saph

*Yes, I know there are ways to get access to splatbooks without paying money, but it's not smart to write guides that assume players are doing something illegal.

Person_Man
2007-09-25, 01:15 PM
Having access to powerful prestige classes is nice, but for a class to be good it should be also be good straight-classed to 20 levels. I think in this regard classes like the ToB ones and the Duskblade are better models than the Bard, because they work great out of the box with nothing other than the book they come in.

- Saph


Agreed. Hopefully this will be fixed in 4th ed. The key is for every class to have something useful to do every round, per encounter, per day, and outside of combat. If you do this and create a reasonable power scale (i.e., no more than X damage per level, no class shall have access to Y effect before Z level) then balance issues will become a lot easier to manage.

TO_Incognito
2007-09-25, 03:18 PM
Fascinate is nowhere near as broken as people think. In fact, most of its "brokeness" springs from the fact that DMs allow it to be used in combat, which directly goes against its "must not be threatened or attacked" line. Otherwise it's a nice social ability with very strong save.

I'm wondering if this is correct, and what the real intention of the author of Fascinate was. It seems like it is; the PHB mentions specifically that the distraction of a nearby combat prevents the ability from working, while the SRD shortens it to any potential threat. Why do some DM's rule that it works near a combat?