E10 - Impact on low-level characters when there are no 6th to 9th level spells?

[Yora]

I have loved the idea of campaigns that are restricted to the lower levels of magic. I think E6 was the coolest idea in 3rd Edition, capping everyone at level 6, and I always prefered B/X over BECMI because it ends at level 14.

Now that I am preparing a 5th Ed. campaign and once again want the world to have no NPCs of 11th level or higher. PCs would also be capped at 10th level, but my campaigns never run that long that I ever expect any to get that far anyway.

But even for 5th or 7th level PCs thing change, because there are no clerics or wizards anywhere who could be payed to cast 6th or 7th level spells. And nobody could have used these spells for infrastructure or defense purposes, or would have taken any measures to guard against them. A world where spells go up to 9th level probably would look quite differently to one with spells only up to 5th level.

Now 5th level is a pretty big one to either include or exclude, because it's the one that has raise dead and greater restoration. Making this the highest level of magic power makes these spells rare, but available for people with money and connections. It's not nearly as drastic as limiting magic to 4th level spells.

If characters are capped at 10th level and spells at 5th level, then I think it also makes sense to limit magic items to uncommon and rare ones accordingly. Though I believe this is not a necessary consequence.

Which spells and magic items do you think would make the biggest impact in their absence from the world? Would that put any monsters in unexpectedly favored positions with important counters to their powers being gone?

[Perlywhirly]

Rakshasa limited magic immunity is now complete magic immunity. Anything that helps Rakshasa is good in my books.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

I have loved the idea of campaigns that are restricted to the lower levels of magic. I think E6 was the coolest idea in 3rd Edition, capping everyone at level 6, and I always prefered B/X over BECMI because it ends at level 14.

Now that I am preparing a 5th Ed. campaign and once again want the world to have no NPCs of 11th level or higher. PCs would also be capped at 10th level, but my campaigns never run that long that I ever expect any to get that far anyway.

But even for 5th or 7th level PCs thing change, because there are no clerics or wizards anywhere who could be payed to cast 6th or 7th level spells. And nobody could have used these spells for infrastructure or defense purposes, or would have taken any measures to guard against them. A world where spells go up to 9th level probably would look quite differently to one with spells only up to 5th level.

Now 5th level is a pretty big one to either include or exclude, because it's the one that has raise dead and greater restoration. Making this the highest level of magic power makes these spells rare, but available for people with money and connections. It's not nearly as drastic as limiting magic to 4th level spells.

If characters are capped at 10th level and spells at 5th level, then I think it also makes sense to limit magic items to uncommon and rare ones accordingly. Though I believe this is not a necessary consequence.

Which spells and magic items do you think would make the biggest impact in their absence from the world? Would that put any monsters in unexpectedly favored positions with important counters to their powers being gone?

Absolutes can be crazy. Your level 1 to 3 starter characters shouldn't be meeting bad guys with Power Word Kill too often you would think.

If by the time they are level 8 with two 4th level spell slots in hand and you need higher level bad guys you just might need higher level spells.

Heck, make it a plot hook that the continent's two ancient Wizards who can cast True Polymorph have died and now here come the bad guys!

[Calimehter]

I'm kind of coming at this question from the opposite side of things, having not DM'ed anything other than E9 (in 3.5) in AGES, and wondering what my uncapped 5E game world will look like with some high level spells available (even if the PCs themselves can't cast them because they are too low level, etc.) that I didn't have to worry myself about before.

I'd start off by saying that you've got some big spells already in the game as 5th level capstones. I've noticed that a lot of what I'm needing to think about more is 'coming online' at that spell level. Sending and Teleportation Circle, in particular, shrink the world somewhat. Even the 99% of the population that can't cast or pay for them directly will benefit from these in some way, even if it is just in the form of much faster travel times for quicker news, critical goods and people, etc., in the very largest cities. It can make the difference between a town and a city seem all that much greater than it did for E6 or even E8 under 3.5 rules. Raise Dead/Reincarnate being available for the rich and powerful (which often includes PCs) changes death somewhat, at least for the 1%, even within the limits of those spells. Druids can Awaken forests.

Some thoughts on what is lost:

- - BBEG evil wizards (and high level PC ones) will lose a lot of their staying power. No Contingency available, no Clones stashed away on Demiplanes to come back after being killed by the local heroes. Makes them more of a target option for low level PCs than they were before and less of an ominous threat as individuals.

- Planar travel outside of portals is out.

- You lose Regenerate. I'm including options for Lingering Injuries in my game, so I'm maybe a bit more worried about that than you are, but long term injuries and disfigurement can't be fixed as easy as *death itself*, which might bother some.

- No Move Earth or Programmed Illusion cuts down on some of the options for creating fantastic landscapes.

- No Sequester or Imprisonment for ancient powers to have used to stash away powerful artifacts or individuals for future conflict with the PCs.

- Loads of combat options are lost, of course. That's a feature and not a bug of E10, but it can have odd interactions with creatures. Rakshasa being the craziest case probably and already mentioned, but I wouldn't be shocked if there was another few out there.

[Laserlight]

Someone worked out E11 and using ASIs for gestalt levels, as I recall. You could keep getting xp and therefore ASIs after you hit 11, and paid 2 ASI to take a second or third class...if my memory is right. I'll see if I bookmarked it.

[thereaper]

Given how overpowered some of the higher level spells are, E10 or E11 is arguably the default assumption already.

[JackPhoenix]

Why make the cutoff at 10 and not 11? 11 makes for a better capstone. Fighters get extra attack, paladins get IDS, full casters get one 6th level spell a day... it actually make the character seem to reach some apex of ability. It's also weird to cap NPCs at 11 (or, for that matter, use character levels for the NPCs in the first place) and PCs only at 10.

6th level spells aren't any more game- or world- breaking than 5ths (that privilege belongs to 7th, with stuff like Forcecage, Teleport and of course Simulacrum), but losing them won't affect the world much.

[Lyracian]

I always think of the higher level spells being more "the stuff of legends". A thousand years ago before the great empire fell people new this power but now it is beyond them. My preference was always the lower/mid tier of games; players adventure and eventually learn Fireball as there power spell.

It also comes down to how you see XP awards. Once you get to a certain point you are not really learning anything killing Goblins. Wiping out another thousand should not cause you to become more powerful (level). Maybe the characters could get to level 11 or 12 but would have to be off killing Dragons and Fire Giants to gain more power (XP).

[Callak_Remier]

Caps are a nice way to keep everyone at the desired playstyle level If everyone is on Board.
As a Wizard player i would have a problem if the Dm sprung this on me.
Since Extraplanar Travel is something i usually want to do with my characters.

Also High Level magic has been nerfed compared to earlier editions. So i would have to be presented an excellent reason as to why the DM chose to do this.

Considering the 3 Arcane classes are each based around being dominate at different levels of play i would have to ask what Compensation would you give to the wizard.

[Laserlight]

I was thinking of Zman's E10 proposal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?521922-Zman-s-5e-Tweaks-E10-Variant-V1-0) . I know it's had a bit of playtest, I haven't heard how it turned out.