Let's Read The Immortal Handbook Bestiary

[ColorBlindNinja]

https://i.imgur.com/qeLR2l0.jpg

Image link. (https://i.imgur.com/qeLR2l0.jpg)





3rd party books aren’t really known for being well balanced, but one among their number stands tall above the rest. One book is spoken of in horrified whispers throughout the dark corners of the D&D 3.5 community…

The Immortal Handbook!

This terrifying tome was meant to be part of a series, but alas, it was never finished. The intention of the Immortal Handbook was to be a sort of replacement for the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods. Hardly a concept one could fault, after all, both the books are flawed (especially the Epic Level Handbook). Tragically, it fails miserably at this worthy goal, by somehow managing to be even worse.

To that aim, the Immortal Handbook Bestiary and the Immortal Handbook Ascension were printed. Perhaps I’ll talk about Ascension someday, but for now, we focus on the Bestiary. This book had an especially lofty goal, to provide appropriate encounters for characters whose levels were in the triple, nay, quadruple digits.

Anyone who knows anything about how epic D&D is would be well aware that this a fool’s errand. That D&D 3.5 becomes hopelessly broken by level 15 or so. Level 21 and beyond are a screaming nightmare of game imbalance, imagine how horrifying attempting to run an encounter with a monster with a triple digit challenge rating?

The opening pages of the book detail some new feats and then begin to tinker with the size rules. I like the idea of having size categories beyond Colossal +, but I could have done without the rest of these rule changes. Having a character’s weight increase with their strength score seems like a pointless love affair with realism when this tome contains a golem that can tear the planet asunder with a single punch.

Even less welcome is the Immortal Handbook’s insistence on changing the cosmology of the setting. D&D already has an exceedingly complicated cosmology, switching things around only makes things more perplexing.

But that’s not why you’re here. No, you’re here to see the ridiculous monsters that populate the Immortal Handbook and I don’t intend to disappoint. For anyone who has the book at home, see if you concoct a way to kill these beasts at level 20 or lower. Now, without further ado…




Amilictli (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23652607&viewfull=1#post23652607)
Anakim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23654125&viewfull=1#post23654125)
Gibborim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23656707&viewfull=1#post23656707)
Odium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23659677&viewfull=1#post23659677)
Sadim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23662826&viewfull=1#post23662826)
Akalich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23665873&viewfull=1#post23665873)
Akishra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23668727&viewfull=1#post23668727)
Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23671359&viewfull=1#post23671359)
Cherubim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23673086&viewfull=1#post23673086)
Flaga (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23678146&viewfull=1#post23678146)
Kyriotates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23680242&viewfull=1#post23680242)
Malakim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23682720&viewfull=1#post23682720)
Sandalphon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23684941&viewfull=1#post23684941)
Seraphim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23687167&viewfull=1#post23687167)
Atata (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23690299&viewfull=1#post23690299)
Syzygy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23691618&viewfull=1#post23691618)
Cogent (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23694103&viewfull=1#post23694103)
Cicatrix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23696465&viewfull=1#post23696465)
Kabiri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23699832&viewfull=1#post23699832)
Maskim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23705114&viewfull=1#post23705114)
Cometary Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23710812&viewfull=1#post23710812)
Nexus Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23713734&viewfull=1#post23713734)
Platinum Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23722882&viewfull=1#post23722882)
Polychromatic Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23731553&viewfull=1#post23731553)
Timber Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23738857&viewfull=1#post23738857)
Titanium Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23750474&viewfull=1#post23750474)
Void Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23761417&viewfull=1#post23761417)
Quintessence Elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23765645&viewfull=1#post23765645)
Unelemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23766737&viewfull=1#post23766737)
Diamond Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23768397&viewfull=1#post23768397)
Force Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23769300&viewfull=1#post23769300)
Ioun Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23769598&viewfull=1#post23769598)
Mercury Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23770393&viewfull=1#post23770393)
Neutronium Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23772126&viewfull=1#post23772126)
Orichalcum Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23774512&viewfull=1#post23774512)
Grigori (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23774801&viewfull=1#post23774801)
Final Thoughts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?579093-Let-s-Read-The-Immortal-Handbook-Bestiary&p=23777128&viewfull=1#post23777128)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Amilictli, CR 46


https://web.archive.org/web/20140101162547im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Amilictli-web.jpg


This book starts out with Abominations, a concept first coined by the Epic Handbook. Basically, the spurred offspring of gods. An interesting concept to be sure, but what do we get? A walking tornado. What a way to start, huh? And this fellow gets the honor of being on the front cover!

The fluff for these guys is that they’re the product of fits of rage from storm gods. So, I guess if Thor ever had a really bad day, he might spawn a Amilictli.

This first thing I noticed is that this monstrosity has over 2000 HP. While the Epic Handbook may not be the best standard, I feel it might be useful for a point of comparison. The Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires) is CR 57 and has just over a 1000 HP, while the Amilictli is CR 46. The Amilictli also has Regeneration 40 (epic and lawful), so this beast is an HP sponge!

For whatever reason, it casts its spell-like abilities at CL 89! That’s almost double its CR and more than its total hit dice! Good luck dispelling its buffs! It has a lot of SLAs, too, including Blasphemy, which will TPK the entire party if they aren’t immune to it. Fun.

To be completely honest, I don’t think the Amilictli would actually stand up to an epic party that are well optimized, even if they don’t have access epic magic. With the +20 cap on Greater Dispel, it’s not dispelling any of the party’s buffs and being immune to electricity protects you from about 90% of what it can do.

It does have good saving throws (+50 Ref is its lowest) and SR 99! But good luck getting your party to take the walking tornado man seriously.


I'll try to upload new monsters as frequently as I am able. :smallwink:

[Karl Aegis]

Yeah, but is it immune to Quivering Palm?

[OgresAreCute]

You say Tornado Man but it looks more like it's made out of hoover tubes.

https://siteassets.ransomspares.co.uk/Products/800-800/iwqdbihu636443548357524735.jpg


Yeah, but is it immune to Quivering Palm?

Well, it does have +67 to Fortitude saves. Even against a level 42 Monk with 86 Wisdom, it only fails the save 5% of the time. Unless the ability gets a boost in the Monk's epic progression, didn't bother checking.

Actually, never mind. Quivering Palm doesn't work on creatures immune to crits, and Henry the Hoover over here has Elemental Traits.

Also, the font this book uses for creature names and headings is just hideous. How could anyone think this was a good idea? Like in the beginning of the book where it has a heading called "Credits", it looks more like "Grenits". Quite possibly the worst font I've ever seen used in a real book.

[Theoboldi]

Will be watching this with interest. The Immortals Handbook has always been a personal fascination of mine for being filled with semi-cool ideas that have the worst possible execution.

Which the god-awful font, that really deserves some pictures just to show off how bad it is, actually is the perfect example of.

[noob]

I think it dies to regular celerity + blast spam chained with having a bunch of people dealing cdg on it with epic lawful weapons(something like +6 total modifier or +2 and greater magic weapon) until it dies.
If you want something more core only then spam planar binding until you have enough demons to swarm it to death.

[OgresAreCute]

Will be watching this with interest. The Immortals Handbook has always been a personal fascination of mine for being filled with semi-cool ideas that have the worst possible execution.

Which the god-awful font, that really deserves some pictures just to show off how bad it is, actually is the perfect example of.

Ask and you'll receive.

https://i.gyazo.com/e594c3c48740d866b72f229fae1a675d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/75bcc6e5de4597076e5959c80446e7e0.png

https://i.gyazo.com/4ced6cbf5710a9897f50d9718e75d408.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ad93be894e3d4c437f076cc28dbd5183.png

You know, this kinda looks like a less legible version of Zalgo text.

[gkathellar]

Ask and you'll receive.

https://i.gyazo.com/e594c3c48740d866b72f229fae1a675d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/75bcc6e5de4597076e5959c80446e7e0.png

https://i.gyazo.com/4ced6cbf5710a9897f50d9718e75d408.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ad93be894e3d4c437f076cc28dbd5183.png

You know, this kinda looks like a less legible version of Zalgo text.

Don't be alarmed, that screaming noise you can hear everywhere in the universe now is just me looking at this font.

[noob]

How could they make a font harder to read than what I write with my hands?
It is mysterious.

[gkathellar]

How could they make a font harder to read than what I write with my hands?
It is mysterious.

It appears that each letter is attempting to combine its upper and lower-case variations into one unreadable whole.

Why has this been done? I don't know, I'm too busy screaming to figure it out.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gkathellar
Why has this been done? I don't know, I'm too busy screaming to figure it out.

You're screaming for the both of us. I can only stare in slack-jawed horror.

I've never heard of this book before, and hadn't planned to comment on Henry the Hoover (which is bad enough), but...that font. That font.

[Theoboldi]

It appears that each letter is attempting to combine its upper and lower-case variations into one unreadable whole.


Wha-

*looks closer*

Oh my god, you are right. All this time, and I did not see that. I genuinely feel like you've just unveiled some horrible eldritch truth about reality to my unprepared mortal mind.

[OgresAreCute]

Wha-

*looks closer*

Oh my god, you are right. All this time, and I did not see that. I genuinely feel like you've just unveiled some horrible eldritch truth about reality to my unprepared mortal mind.

Some secrets must remain buried.

[Eldan]

Ask and you'll receive.

https://i.gyazo.com/e594c3c48740d866b72f229fae1a675d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/75bcc6e5de4597076e5959c80446e7e0.png

https://i.gyazo.com/4ced6cbf5710a9897f50d9718e75d408.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ad93be894e3d4c437f076cc28dbd5183.png

You know, this kinda looks like a less legible version of Zalgo text.

Bwah?

Ten characters?

[Karl Aegis]

Well, do we know if it deals divine electricity damage or just regular electricity damage? Divine electricity is harder to deal with since you need like that one prestige class from Planar Handbook to resist it. Defiant.

[Ottriman]

I actually never had any issue with the font in this book.

Will be watching this with interest, the ideas were neat even if executed in the least balanced most boring way possible.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You say Tornado Man but it looks more like it's made out of hoover tubes.

https://siteassets.ransomspares.co.uk/Products/800-800/iwqdbihu636443548357524735.jpg

Yeah, you're right, that makes him even less intimidating.



Actually, never mind. Quivering Palm doesn't work on creatures immune to crits, and Henry the Hoover over here has Elemental Traits.

Henry the Hoover, LOL!


Also, the font this book uses for creature names and headings is just hideous. How could anyone think this was a good idea? Like in the beginning of the book where it has a heading called "Credits", it looks more like "Grenits". Quite possibly the worst font I've ever seen used in a real book.


https://i.gyazo.com/e594c3c48740d866b72f229fae1a675d.png

https://i.gyazo.com/75bcc6e5de4597076e5959c80446e7e0.png

https://i.gyazo.com/4ced6cbf5710a9897f50d9718e75d408.png

https://i.gyazo.com/ad93be894e3d4c437f076cc28dbd5183.png

You know, this kinda looks like a less legible version of Zalgo text.

Yep, that may well be my least favorite part of the entire book. :smallfrown:


Well, do we know if it deals divine electricity damage or just regular electricity damage? Divine electricity is harder to deal with since you need like that one prestige class from Planar Handbook to resist it. Defiant.

Some of its attacks deal half divine damage, but not most of them. IIRC, all of its ranged options just deal electricity damage.


Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll try to have the next monster uploaded later today.

[unseenmage]

This thread has made me chortle quietly so as not to wake the baby. Thank you.

Also. had heard of this book but never seen it. Will be following along.

[Karl Aegis]

Bluh it has Epic Spellcasting. Things borked.

[Aniikinis]

I think I have a pdf of this book somewhere. I used to scroll through it when I was bored to see if there was anything particularly stupid in it. I will be watching this with extreme interest.

Also, Henry the Hoover is by no means the dumbest thing in this book. Hand on Vecna's Heart.

EDIT: My gods, thank you for reminding me of this abomination. Also, I have loads of grievances with the book's cosmology and the depictions/descriptions of many of the monsters. Especially the angels. Although I do enjoy the templates they have in this book.

[OgresAreCute]

Anyway, about Tornadus over here, anyone figured out why the art depicts him shooting an intersection out of his eyes at some dude yet?

[Theoboldi]

Anyway, about Tornadus over here, anyone figured out why the art depicts him shooting an intersection out of his eyes at some dude yet?

Funnily enough, it does have an ability that lets it shoot rays dealing divine damage from its eyes. Which for some reason deals a heavy ton of backlash to Henry every time he hits with it.

[inuyasha]

I remember a much younger me hearing about this book and thinking wow that'd be neat.

Boy am I glad I never bought it

[Necroticplague]

It appears that each letter is attempting to combine its upper and lower-case variations into one unreadable whole.
Only the upper-case form of that font. The big names of creatures are ALL CAPS, and I still can't figure out WTF the lower-case of the font it doing.

[Kalkra]

After much staring, I've determined that the lion head on the cover isn't growing out of Tory. With that settled, I can stab my eyes out now.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Anakim, CR 32


http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/New-Anakim1.JPG


EDIT: Picture link. (http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/New-Anakim1.JPG)

Alright, who hired Rob Liefeld for the artwork on this one?!

In all seriousness, the Anakim is pretty uninspired, the fluff behind these guys is that god of strength and a demon loved each other very, very much… Wait? Isn’t that nearly identical to the fluff behind the Infernal? Whatever.

For a monster that looks like it’s supposed to punch things to death, the Anakim has a surprising number of SLAs, all of which it casts at level 49. Again, more than its CR or HD.

It also has a sonic attack, a strength draining gaze, a fear aura, and can summon a Titan. That last one could get insane if the Titan uses Gate.

The Anakim also has Regeneration 20, which can be bypassed by good and epic or just lawful. It also has SR 59 and is immune to sonic damage for whatever reason.

All in all, not much of threat for a level 32 party, in my own humble opinion. It’s also kind of boring. Next!

[unseenmage]

Pic isnt working for me. :(

[ColorBlindNinja]

Pic isnt working for me. :(

How odd, it's working for me. :smallconfused:

I'm having a really hard time with these pictures.

Both finding them and getting them to work.

:smallfrown:

EDIT: Is anyone else having trouble viewing it?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I guess they don't allow hotlinking, but if you already have the picture stored in your cache (by viewing it on their website), your browser will be kind enough to display it anyway.

Why do Anakim have six fingers and six toes?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I guess they don't allow hotlinking, but if you already have the picture stored in your cache (by viewing it on their website), your browser will be kind enough to display it anyway.

I'll try to put links to the pictures from now on, then.


Why do Anakim have six fingers and six toes?

I honestly have no idea. :smallconfused:

[noob]

Regular linking throws me into a page I do not have the right to access.
Error 403 forbidden.

[OgresAreCute]

I guess they don't allow hotlinking, but if you already have the picture stored in your cache (by viewing it on their website), your browser will be kind enough to display it anyway.

Why do Anakim have six fingers and six toes?

Graz'zt is a fiend with six fingers who might be persuaded to make love to literally anything a deity of Strength at some point, and so spawning one of the A҉̶̢n̢͘a̴̸̸̧k̸͜͏̧i̶͜͜͡ḿ͘͜. That's the best I can come up with.

[unseenmage]

Regular linking throws me into a page I do not have the right to access.
Error 403 forbidden.

Same here. How odd.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Regular linking throws me into a page I do not have the right to access.
Error 403 forbidden.


Same here. How odd.

Technology: can't live without it, but it mysteriously stops working for unexplained reasons. :smallsigh:

[noob]

Technology: can't live without it, but it mysteriously stops working for unexplained reasons. :smallsigh:

It was not mysterious at all.
what you are using is plainly not made for sharing images.
Like imageshack.

[Remuko]

With the direct link I also got the 403 error, but I just had to click on the URL bar and hit enter and it took me to the pic properly.

[flappeercraft]

Yeah, you're right, that makes him even less intimidating.
Henry the Hoover, LOL!


I didn't know what Henry the Hoover was until I googled it, I can't stop laughing. It does make him less intimidating, for me it now is on the same part of the intimidation scale as Elmo right now because of that.


Pic isnt working for me. :(

Same.


Graz'zt is a fiend with six fingers who might be persuaded to make love to literally anything a deity of Strength at some point, and so spawning one of the A҉̶̢n̢͘a̴̸̸̧k̸͜͏̧i̶͜͜͡ḿ͘͜. That's the best I can come up with.

Fiends... Can you blame em? It's in their nature. That font for Anakim is making my eyes bleed almost as much as that of the Immortal Handbook/

[ColorBlindNinja]

With the direct link I also got the 403 error, but I just had to click on the URL bar and hit enter and it took me to the pic properly.


Same.

Sorry about the pictures, I didn't foresee them being this stubborn. :smallfrown:

[Karl Aegis]

Huh, the challenge ratings on these guys doesn't match what the version I'm looking at says they are. Did they take out the summons or something? Summon Paragon Thunder Worm and Summon Titan aren't bad abilities (in theory).

The most problematic abilities for the first guy are the Scion of Storms (half the electricity damage they deal is divine energy), Tempest of Vengeance (Storm of Vengeance+, so concealment or total concealment and +72 hide skill all the time) and Vengeance Blast (Ranged Touch attack averaging 595 divine damage, breaks through wall of force, force cage, force field and just barriers in general, resistance or immunity is few and far between; damages itself through regeneration so regeneration doesn't stop it). Of less concern are 200 foot reach, 240 foot speed, SR 99, +2 constitution every round it takes damage and immunity to enchantment, illusion, transmutation, ability damage/drain and energy drain. Reshuffling it's feats around can get it standard uber charging feats, and mind sight.

The second guy... I hope you have a decent fortitude save and mettle or a grotesque amount of strength. If you do, he just has a short range divine/sonic attack that blows away all cover you have and a really expensive 146.2 ton spiked chain. Neat to polymorph into, I guess. 90 strength isn't bad for a 45 hit dice outsider.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Huh, the challenge ratings on these guys doesn't match what the version I'm looking at says they are. Did they take out the summons or something? Summon Paragon Thunder Worm and Summon Titan aren't bad abilities (in theory).

:smallconfused:

No, the summons are there in my copy. Weird.


The most problematic abilities for the first guy are the Scion of Storms (half the electricity damage they deal is divine energy), Tempest of Vengeance (Storm of Vengeance+, so concealment or total concealment and +72 hide skill all the time) and Vengeance Blast (Ranged Touch attack averaging 595 divine damage, breaks through wall of force, force cage, force field and just barriers in general, resistance or immunity is few and far between; damages itself through regeneration so regeneration doesn't stop it). Of less concern are 200 foot reach, 240 foot speed, SR 99, +2 constitution every round it takes damage and immunity to enchantment, illusion, transmutation, ability damage/drain and energy drain. Reshuffling it's feats around can get it standard uber charging feats, and mind sight.

The second guy... I hope you have a decent fortitude save and mettle or a grotesque amount of strength. If you do, he just has a short range divine/sonic attack that blows away all cover you have and a really expensive 146.2 ton spiked chain. Neat to polymorph into, I guess. 90 strength isn't bad for a 45 hit dice outsider.

Honestly, I would expect characters of those level ranges to be immune to 90% of what those monsters are capable of. That's pretty much expected at epic, be immune or die.

[Elricaltovilla]

Liefeld didn't draw the second picture. There are visible feet in that "illustration." Everyone knows Liefeld can't draw feet.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Liefeld didn't draw the second picture. There are visible feet in that "illustration." Everyone knows Liefeld can't draw feet.

Darn, I was so sure I'd identified the artist. :smallwink:

[Karl Aegis]

Divine damage is surprisingly hard to be immune to. Defiant 3 or a custom magic item are the only things I can think of.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Divine damage is surprisingly hard to be immune to. Defiant 3 or a custom magic item are the only things I can think of.

Yeah, that's probably the biggest threat to the party. Depending on the party composition and optimization, they might be able to drop their opponents in a single round, though.

[Karl Aegis]

Oh, I get it now. Antimagic Field beats all Supernatural abilities unless they say otherwise. Sure, you might be hit by Nailed to the Sky or Living Lightning, but otherwise you just have to worry about poor visibility and rending. Immortal Handbook Bestiary monsters are notorious for being glass cannons, so carve them up while they don't have regeneration.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oh, I get it now. Antimagic Field beats all Supernatural abilities unless they say otherwise. Sure, you might be hit by Nailed to the Sky or Living Lightning, but otherwise you just have to worry about poor visibility and rending. Immortal Handbook Bestiary monsters are notorious for being glass cannons, so carve them up while they don't have regeneration.

Is Regeneration SU? I thought it was EX.

[Karl Aegis]

Is Regeneration SU? I thought it was EX.

These guys inexplicably have Regeneration(Su).

[ColorBlindNinja]

These guys inexplicably have Regeneration(Su).

Weird. I will note that if Epic Magic is on the table, you can Dispel SU abilities with the Dispel Seed.

[Kalkra]

The spell Energy Absorption can give you one-time immunity to divine damage (or any other kind). Not the greatest without custom item shenanigans, but it can let you avoid being one-shotted.

[Eldan]

Isn't "kind of boring and uninspired, a lot of big numbers, but not really a threat to epic characters who know what they are doing" this entire book summed up anyway?

[OgresAreCute]

Isn't "kind of boring and uninspired, a lot of big numbers, but not really a threat to epic characters who know what they are doing" this entire book summed up anyway?

From what I hear, that's all epic monsters in general. Couldn't really tell you, as I've never played at those kinda levels myself.

[danielxcutter]

From what I hear, that's all epic monsters in general. Couldn't really tell you, as I've never played at those kinda levels myself.

How many hit points do you need for a monster to not be a glass cannon then? Would somewhere in the low~mid 1k hit points be acceptable for the low~mid 20s?

[Eldan]

That's the problem. You can't tell.

Challenge rating in third edition is borked, mainly because player power level is borked. Blasty McFiremage, the Wizard 15/Archmage 5 who picks Meteor Swarm as his first ninth level spell because it makes a big boom is not remotely in the same league as Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, who sends gated solars with buff spells out to solve the actual adventure while his Astral Projection and the rest of the party have a feast in their Magnificient Mansion on Arborea. Either of them is still above any given monk you care to name.

Epic only makes this worse. How much epic spell DC mitigation does your DM allow? That's pretty much the only question that matters anymore. With enough ritual participants you can invent a spell that does arbitrary damage.

There's just nothing to balance against anymore, so CR is meaningless at this point. Even without the worst excesses of theoretical optimization.

[danielxcutter]

That's the problem. You can't tell.

Challenge rating in third edition is borked, mainly because player power level is borked. Blasty McFiremage, the Wizard 15/Archmage 5 who picks Meteor Swarm as his first ninth level spell because it makes a big boom is not remotely in the same league as Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, who sends gated solars with buff spells out to solve the actual adventure while his Astral Projection and the rest of the party have a feast in their Magnificient Mansion on Arborea. Either of them is still above any given monk you care to name.

Epic only makes this worse. How much epic spell DC mitigation does your DM allow? That's pretty much the only question that matters anymore. With enough ritual participants you can invent a spell that does arbitrary damage.

There's just nothing to balance against anymore, so CR is meaningless at this point. Even without the worst excesses of theoretical optimization.

...Okay, I see your point, though I'm kinda leaving out Epic Spellcasting and uber-cheese and more thinking of "non-Epic with bigger numbers". Which is pretty damn big.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Isn't "kind of boring and uninspired, a lot of big numbers, but not really a threat to epic characters who know what they are doing" this entire book summed up anyway?

Actually, there a few monsters that are nearly impossible to kill.

Mostly the ones that are just flat out immune to most schools of magic and all non epic spells.

[Karl Aegis]

Huh, technically, you can reliably punch the tornado guy into the sun if you can hit an attack roll of 86 after a -15 penalty because he weighs virtually nothing. Metamartial maneuvers: they're like metamagic, but for your fist.

[gkathellar]

...Okay, I see your point, though I'm kinda leaving out Epic Spellcasting and uber-cheese and more thinking of "non-Epic with bigger numbers". Which is pretty damn big.

The trouble is that there's very little standardization for the numbers in question. The point of CR, at least ostensibly, is to say, "characters of x level should be able to fight monsters of x CR reasonably well." But for that to work, variables like y character attack bonus and z monster AC need to be fairly predictable functions of x. In practice, however, y is a function of class, build, and WBL efficiency (which becomes readily apparent even glancing through the sample NPCs of various classes listed in the DMG), while z is a function of whatever hallucination the monster's writer was having that day. You can stay well away from cheese and the CR system won't work properly, because it doesn't predict that things it's supposed to predict.1

That said, it does sometimes function as a very rough gauge, if only because monster abilities tend to show up around CRs where tactics for dealing with them also appear. But by epic, everything is in play and there are simply no parameters at all, so CR is complete nonsense.

1This is, incidentally, something that PF is better about, at least on the monster side of things: monsters stats in PF generally occur within a range determined by CR. There are still problems with consistency on the character side, though.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Gibborim, CR 37

(No picture this time, I couldn't find one that'd work.:smallfrown: It just looks like a really fat bipedal elephant.)

Now, these monsters are just gross. If a god feasts and drinks so much he loses his lunch, one of these beasts are born. Ew! They also look unpleasant, stink to high heaven, and they apparently taste horrible to boot.

Unlike the previous monsters in the Immortal Handbook, the Gibborim doesn’t have Regeneration, but it does have Fast Healing 30. But like its fellows, it has a sky-high caster level for its SLAs (69th) and a ton of spell resistance (79). It’s also got Blasphemy as an SLA, so hope you’re immune to it. And once per week, it can summon another Gibborim.

By far the most unique thing about this monster is that it can inhale you like Kirby and drop you in its stomach, which consists of an entire demiplane. Complete with an encounter table! That’s certainly unique but characters these levels will escape it easily. Unless they’re not spellcasters, then they’re screwed. But that pretty much true of epic in general.

The Gibborim also possesses a LOT of HP, 2600! That’s 500 more than Mr. Hoover, and his challenging rating is nearly 10 higher than the Gibborim’s!

Honestly, the abominations so far are all starting to feel the same. They have high saves, ability scores and HP and a grab-bag selection of SLAs. The tummy dimension is kind of neat, but like its fellows, I’m not convinced an epic party won’t beat it into the ground.

[JoshuaZ]

The demiplane-stomach idea is pretty cool actually. I may steal that for later use.

[unseenmage]

This exercise begs the question; What DO we want in an epic monster?

Kaiju are supposed to be punching bags so far as their lore is concerned.
Do we want every epic challenge to be wizard Godzilla?

Is Galactus a threat purely due to his size?

Perhaps late season Stargate style Replicators on occasion.

What exactly constitutes an epic threat, let alone an epic monster?

EDIT:
While not epic I am reminded of the Cthulhu stats from PF when compared to the PF Godzilla analogue, Mogaru. Cthulhu Astral Projects and you never get to fight em. Mogaru is a classic punching bag kaiju. Even though both are at similarly very high CR.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This exercise begs the question; What DO we want in an epic monster?

Kaiju are supposed to be punching bags so far as their lore is concerned.
Do we want every epic challenge to be wizard Godzilla?

Is Galactus a threat purely due to his size?

Perhaps late season Stargate style Replicators on occasion.

What exactly constitutes an epic threat, let alone an epic monster?

These are all good questions. A big part of the problem with answering them is that epic play is so abysmally designed, that it's in desperate need of a major redesign.

[OgresAreCute]

The demiplane-stomach idea is pretty cool actually. I may steal that for later use.

No need to steal it, it's already a thing. Check out Dalmosh in MM5.

[Aniikinis]

https://i.somethingawful.com/u/elpintogrande/epicbestiary/05.gif
A face that not even his mother could love.

Ah yes, Ganesha's Chicken-winged and Malformed 5th cousin 9th removed after FAS got ahold of him. This one, while annoying, is just a massive punching bag with so little tricks up its' sleev- uhh arm pockets that it's easily defeated.

The most annoying powers it has are probably the Internal Limbo, Breath Weapon(which leads to the previous), At-Will Blasphemy (CL 69), Terrible trumpeting (240 ft. radius, Will DC 60 or Confusion 65 rounds), and Ungodly Stench (lasts as long as you're within range +1d4+1 rounds after)

[Melcar]

[...] D&D 3.5 becomes hopelessly broken by level 15 or so. Level 21 and beyond are a screaming nightmare of game imbalance, imagine how horrifying attempting to run an encounter with a monster with a triple digit challenge rating?


No, absolutely not true! If you are playing in Tippyverse, sure maybe. But I have never been in any game or campaign where this was even remotely true. Sure you can create Pun Pun at level 1, and so the game is just inherently broken. That has nothing to do with level, but all to do with how willing the players and DM are to just break the game...

We currently run a lower/mid level optimized game and we are level 31-32. There is nothing broken here! We have fun and combat is neither epic-(press enter to win)-magic or any infinity loops granting infinite actions...

When ever people talk about all this brokenness, like you do here, I get sad, because they must have played with some epic jerks... if you played in my party, level 32 is just level 1 with higher numbers, coupled with more cool class abilities and feats.



Good luck dispelling its buffs!
Mordenkainen's Distjunction... Done!




That's the problem. You can't tell.

Challenge rating in third edition is borked, mainly because player power level is borked. Blasty McFiremage, the Wizard 15/Archmage 5 who picks Meteor Swarm as his first ninth level spell because it makes a big boom is not remotely in the same league as Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, who sends gated solars with buff spells out to solve the actual adventure while his Astral Projection and the rest of the party have a feast in their Magnificient Mansion on Arborea. Either of them is still above any given monk you care to name.

Epic only makes this worse. How much epic spell DC mitigation does your DM allow? That's pretty much the only question that matters anymore. With enough ritual participants you can invent a spell that does arbitrary damage.

There's just nothing to balance against anymore, so CR is meaningless at this point. Even without the worst excesses of theoretical optimization.

Right... Again its not the level as in 15 or 21, or 50 its about what the players and DM think is fun... Pun Pun is just the upper level of optimizations at level 1... level 21 changes nothing. I wonder how many people actually play Godmage von Batman, the Incantatrix/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil??? I know no one...




[...] epic play is so abysmally designed, that it's in desperate need of a major redesign.

Again no... not true as a blanket statement! You have to acknowledge that the game is totally defined by what the players and DM agree to. If you agree to turn yourself into a Zodar for free wishes, ergo unlimited level epic items, or a Sarrukh for unlimited stats, then maybe, but when all enemies do the same (obviously if the players figured these tricks out, the BBEG did too), you are again on the same level and as such not necessarily broken!

[Karl Aegis]

I made a demigod for comparison. It was randomized as to how many hit dice it would have and what portfolios it would have. It's... terrible. Just terrible. I only spent 92 million gold on 2 items.

Azug Azog (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1812104)
N Wyvern Wyvern 11 Barbarian 24, Level 35+30, Init 14, HP 1420/1420, DR 15/Epic, 6/-, Speed 180 Land/Burrow Fly 450 poor
AC 108, Touch 26, Flat-footed 100, Fort 94, Ref 63, Will 55, Base Attack Bonus 28
Acid, Collision, Ghost Touch all weapons Bite +87 (20d10+3d6+68, x2)
Poison Sting +87 (8d6+3d6+45, x2)
2 Wings (4d8+3d6+39 for addtional wings (2)) +87 (8d8+3d6+45, x2)
Resistance Bonus to Saves +32 Breath of Winter (+32 Armor, +8 Dex, -4 Size, +6 Deflect, +50 Natural, +6 Misc)
Abilities Str 101, Dex 27, Con 83, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 22


Edit: I gave it actual weapons and recalculated the numbers.

Edit again: I am really bad at this. Recalculated my items again.

Edit a third time: Figured out my wealth is only supposed to be ~54 million instead of ~120 million. Cut down to 2 items and a bunch of change.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, absolutely not true! If you are playing in Tippyverse, sure maybe. But I have never been in any game or campaign where this was even remotely true. Sure you can create Pun Pun at level 1, and so the game is just inherently broken. That has nothing to do with level, but all to do with how willing the players and DM are to just break the game...

It is generally acknowledged that D&D 3.5 has broken down by level 15.


We currently run a lower/mid level optimized game and we are level 31-32. There is nothing broken here! We have fun and combat is neither epic-(press enter to win)-magic or any infinity loops granting infinite actions...

There are epic monsters of the same or lower CR that would paste your group. I don't consider that to be balanced.


When ever people talk about all this brokenness, like you do here, I get sad, because they must have played with some epic jerks... if you played in my party, level 32 is just level 1 with higher numbers, coupled with more cool class abilities and feats.

If that's the case, your group is pretty unoptimized.


Mordenkainen's Distjunction... Done!

That's probably the best way to do that.



Again no... not true as a blanket statement! You have to acknowledge that the game is totally defined by what the players and DM agree to. If you agree to turn yourself into a Zodar for free wishes, ergo unlimited level epic items, or a Sarrukh for unlimited stats, then maybe, but when all enemies do the same (obviously if the players figured these tricks out, the BBEG did too), you are again on the same level and as such not necessarily broken!

:smallconfused:

You seriously want to argue that epic isn't broken?

[Melcar]

It is generally acknowledged that D&D 3.5 has broken down by level 15.
How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?



There are epic monsters of the same or lower CR that would paste your group. I don't consider that to be balanced.
Doubtful!



If that's the case, your group is pretty unoptimized.
Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!



:smallconfused: You seriously want to argue that epic isn't broken?

Broken how? Against what benchmark? There are rules which can be abused to make Pun Pun at level 1 and there are epic things that break the game... but its about how you use it. Our game is not broken... we choose not to, so I don't abuse the free wishes or the Sarrukh Su ability loops. Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...

But yes, I would ague that there are faults, but its not broken as in unplayable!

If its only broken because you can break the game, then that like saying a car is broken because you can crash it! If the game can be played without breaking down, then I would not call the game inherently broken.. especially not at level 15 or 21...


EDIT: That saves increase faster than its possible to increase the spell DC, mages are actually becoming relatively weaker over time as they increase in level... That's a broken mechanic.

[ColorBlindNinja]

How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?

Well for one thing, the core assumptions the game was designed on have fully broken down by this point.

Tier 1s have access to an incredible amount of power, often gamebreaking amounts of it.



Doubtful!

Can you post links to your character sheets?


Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!

Eh, no. The game most certainly is broken, you have to take specific steps to stop it from breaking.



Broken how? Against what benchmark? There are rules which can be abused to make Pun Pun at level 1 and there are epic things that break the game... but its about how you use it. Our game is not broken... we choose not to, so I don't abuse the free wishes or the Sarrukh Su ability loops. Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...

But yes, I would ague that there are faults, but its not broken as in unplayable!

Epic is completely and thoroughly a mess. At this point, the Fighters are at their most linear, the Wizards at their most quadratic.

Epic spellcasting alone is more than capable of snapping the game in two.

Pun Pun is moot in this case because no one ever tries to play as him.

[Melcar]

Well for one thing, the core assumptions the game was designed on have fully broken down by this point.

Tier 1s have access to an incredible amount of power, often gamebreaking amounts of it.

What exactly is game-breaking? And who plays a game that breaks down?


Can you post links to your character sheets?
Not sure how... its not online. And I don't have a scanner... But the classes are 15 Wizard 5 Arcane Avatar (Quintessential Wizard), 5 Arch Mage (3.0 version), Wizard King (Path of Magic), 2 Wordbearer (Quintessential Wizard), Stats are Str 12, Dex 23, Con 24, Int, 43, Wiz 23, Cha 9. Ill see if I can do something to upload it!



Eh, no. The game most certainly is broken, you have to take specific steps to stop it from breaking.
Can you elaborate? Do you mean line choosing not to chain gate solars not using infinity loops? I would like some examples...



Epic is completely and thoroughly a mess. At this point, the Fighters are at their most linear, the Wizards at their most quadratic.

Epic spellcasting alone is more than capable of snapping the game in two.

Pun Pun is moot in this case because no one ever tries to play as him.

1) Could you explain what you mean with quadratic?
2) Then dont use it!
3) Pun Pun is moot sure, but I would argues that chain gating solars would be moot then too... Who plays that way??? Again if everyone does it, then its no problem, but again who except maybe Tippy runs such a character especially if there are low op fighters in the group?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What exactly is game-breaking? And who plays a game that breaks down?

A lot of the tier 1's spell list is gamebreaking. Gate, Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Genesis, ect.

D&D 3.5 was designed with the idea that the Fighter would tank, the Rogue would use skills and Sneak Attack, the Cleric heals and Wizard blasts.

That style of gameplay doesn't cut it against many high CR opponents.



Not sure how... its not online. And I don't have a scanner... But the classes are 15 Wizard 5 Arcane Avatar (Quintessential Wizard), 5 Arch Mage (3.0 version), Wizard King (Path of Magic), 2 Wordbearer (Quintessential Wizard), Stats are Str 12, Dex 23, Con 24, Int, 43, Wiz 23, Cha 9. Ill see if I can do something to upload it!

Alright, thanks.


Can you elaborate? Do you mean line choosing not to chain gate solars not using infinity loops? I would like some examples...

It's a ton of things.

You can't have a well played tier 1 with tier 5 classes without the tier 5 classes being overshadowed, for example.

Not to mention the aforementioned spells with gamebreaking properties.

Gating in a powerful monster to smash a single encounter qualifiers.

Or using Planar Binding, at all.

There are higher OP games that can handle this sort of thing better, but many tables can't.


1) Could you explain what you mean with quadratic?

Wizards get stronger more quickly than Fighters do.


2) Then dont use it!

It's still part of the game and it's very broken.



3) Pun Pun is moot sure, but I would argues that chain gating solars would be moot then too... Who plays that way??? Again if everyone does it, then its no problem, but again who except maybe Tippy runs such a character especially if there are low op fighters in the group?

Yeah, most people don't chain Gate Solars. But the game doesn't become literally unplayable if you do that, while the same is not true of Pun Pun.

[Melcar]

A lot of the tier 1's spell list is gamebreaking. Gate, Shapechange, Ice Assassin, Genesis, ect.
Do the games really break tho? And for whom? Can they really be said to mean "game over, game is not unplayable?" Is it not up to the "jerk" optimizing more that the rest of party? Or abusing certain things, just like Pun Pun does?


D&D 3.5 was designed with the idea that the Fighter would tank, the Rogue would use skills and Sneak Attack, the Cleric heals and Wizard blasts.

That style of gameplay doesn't cut it against many high CR opponents.

True. One could call it a broken part of the game, but the game is still very much playable and enjoyable, and it becomes a dificult task for the DM, but if the party if very low op, then just trow low CR at them...





Alright, thanks.


Male human (Age 45) Wizard 15/ Arcane Avatar 5/ Arch Mage 5/Wizard King 5/ Wordbearer 2: CR 32; Medium–size humanoid (human); HD 15d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d4 plus 5d6 plus 1d4 plus 217; hp 343; Init + 9; spd 30 ft.; AC 30 (touch 22, flat-footed 25); Atk + 20/+15 melee (1d4+5/19-20, +4 silver dagger) or +20/+15 ranged touch (by spell); SQ Arcane Avatar abilities, Arch Mage High Arcana, Wizard King abilities, Wordbearer abilities, enhanced constitution, enhanced intelligence, SR 30; AL CG; SV Fort +24, Ref +22, Will +30, (+5 bonus vs. spells and spell-like effects); Str 12, Dex 21, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 23, Cha 9; Height 6 ft. 2 in.
Skills and Feats:, Appraise +16, Balance +5, Bluff +0, Climb +1, Concentration +42, Decipher Script +22, Diplomacy 2, Disguise -1, Escape Artist +5, Forgery +17, Gather Information 1, Heal +17, Hide +5, Intimidate -1, Jump +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +54, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +34, Knowledge (Elven Culture) +34, Knowledge (Geography) +34, Knowledge (History) +35, Knowledge (Imaskar) +34, Knowledge (Nature) +34, Knowledge (Netherill) +34, Knowledge (The Planes) +37, Knowledge (Religion) +37, Listen +23, Move Silently +5, Perform -1, Ride +5, Search +22, Sense Motive +7, Spellcraft +58, Spot +23, Swim +1, Use Rope +5, Survival +6;Feats: Automatic Quicken x3, Practiced Spellcaster, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Intelligence, Improved Initiative, Improved Meta-magic, Insightful Caster, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe scroll, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spellcasting Prodegy, Spellfire Wielder, Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Focus (transmutation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Summon Familiar.
Special Qualities: Arcane Avatar abilities: Avatar of magic, augment magic, call spell, counter-magic, master of magic; Arch Mage High Arcana: Mastery of elements, mastery of shaping, spell power +1, spell power +2, spell power +3; Wizard King special abilities: Mastered spells, increased spell power, arcane resistance, fundamentals of magic, enhanced intelligence.

Spellfire (Su): Melcar has the ability to control spellfire, like that of the feat, Spellfire wielder.

Avatar of Magic (Ex): Melcar’s physical form is infused with magical power. Energy washes over him without harm or flows through him and his spells as he chooses. He has Spell resistance 15+ his charisma modifier. Melcar continuously radiates magic, and can thus be seen with detect magic spell or effect. He also sees magical auras with his regular vision. He has detect magic as his normal vision as a supernatural ability.

Augment Magic (Ex): Melcar cast all his spells still and silent as of the meta-magic feats of the same name. He does this without increasing their level.

Call spell (Ex): When preparing his spells for the day, Melcar may sacrifice any two spell slots of a given level to prepare any spell of the same level from his spell list. For example, if Melcar did not have the spell lightning bolt in his books he could choose to prepare it by using two of his level 3 spell slots.

Counter-Magic (Ex): When attempting to counter an opponent’s casting, Melcar need not use dispel magic or his enemies spell. Instead he attempts to choke off the flow of energy to his foe’s casting. Instead of casting a spell to counter his enemy he imposes his force of will on the magical patterns that surrounds him.

Master of Magic (Ex): Once per day, Melcar may enter a meditative state in which he melds his spirit with the magical energy and patterns that surround him. In this state, he command s absolute control over the arcane magic en his direct vicinity. He shunts magic away from his enemies while allowing it to flow to his body and mind.

Mastery of Elements (Ex): Melcar can cast anyarcane spell he knows with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic designator to be cast as a different element. For example, a fireball may be cast to deal sonic damage instead of fire damage.

Mastery of Shaping (Ex): Melcar can alter area and effect spells that use the following categories: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. For example, she could cast a fireball and leave a hole where her ally stands, preventing any fire damage. Furthermore, any shapeable (S) spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feetinstead of 10 feet.

Spell Power +1 (Ex): Melcar receives +1 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 2 and 3

Spell Power +2 (Ex): Melcar receives +2 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 3.

Spell Power +3 (Ex): Melcar receives +3 to the save DC of his spells. This effect stack with spell power 1 and 2.

Mastered Spells (Ex): Melcar may cast Teleport without Error in place of other prepared spells at any time. In order to do this, the character merely casts the spell and then marks one prepared spell off his list. This ability works exactly like the spontaneous casting of a cleric.

Increased Spell Power (Ex): Melcar’s spells from the schools of Evocation and Transmutation has their save DC increased by two.

Arcane Resistance (Ex): Melcar has a +3 circumstance bonus to all saves against spells and spell-like abilities.

Fundamentals of Magic (Ex): Melcar has 10 levels of free meta-magic levels.

Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +4 legendary bonus to his Intelligence.

Word of Power, Sleep (Su): With the pronouncement of a single, primal syllable, the wordbearer forces a single foe within 60 ft. to collapse to the ground, deeply asleep. This word forces a creature’s mind to immediately shut down and enter the state of sleep. This ability works only against creatures that are capable of hearing spoken words and vulnerable to the sleep spell. The victim of this ability may make a Will save to resist its effects. A creature forced asleep by this power awakens in 1d4 hours or if forcefully shaken or disturbed, as per the sleep spell. The wordbearer may speak this word three times per day.

Word of Power, Terror (Su): This word of power arouses crippling fear in a single subject, freezing him in place as his muscles become rigid and his mind blanks. The victim is allowed a Will save (DC 20 + Int modifier) to overcome this effect. On a failed save, the creature is helpless. All melee attacks against a helpless target gain a +4 bonus to hit. A helpless creature treats his Dexterity score as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier was –5. As a full-round action, an opponent may deliver a coup de grace against a helpless creature. On a successful save, the victim still suffers the effects of a close brush with his deepest fears. He is considered shaken, suffering a –2 morale penalty to all attacks, damage rolls, and saving throws. The effects of this ability last for 2d4 rounds. The Wordbearer may speak this word three times per day. Mindless creatures and creatures immune to fear-effects are not subject to this word of power.

Enhanced Intelligence (Ex): Melcar has a +5 inherent bonus to his Intelligence.

Enhanced Constitution (Ex): Melcar has a +1 inherent bonus to his constitution.

Wizard Spells per Day: 5/11/10/10/10/9/9/8/8/8/8. Base DC 35 + spell level, 38 + spell level for Evocation and Transmutation spells. Caster level 32.





It's a ton of things.

You can't have a well played tier 1 with tier 5 classes without the tier 5 classes being overshadowed, for example.

Not to mention the aforementioned spells with gamebreaking properties.

Gating in a powerful monster to smash a single encounter qualifiers.

Or using Planar Binding, at all.

There are higher OP games that can handle this sort of thing better, but many tables can't.

So you are calling the game broken because a fighter and a wizard is not equal in terms of power at the same level? This I would call unfortunate, but not broken, but if thats what you mean then I'm inclined to agree somewhat... but again that's not something that makes the game unplayable just enjoyable... I equate broken to being unplayable! If you use broken for poor writing or bad game design then sure its broken!




Wizards get stronger more quickly than Fighters do.
Ahh... ok. But it that broken tho?




It's still part of the game and it's very broken.
But so is Pun Pun... Yeah sure no one plays him, but its possible, just as its possible not to... Its as easy to not choose Pun Pun as it is to not choose Epic Magic...




Yeah, most people don't chain Gate Solars. But the game doesn't become literally unplayable if you do that, while the same is not true of Pun Pun.
Fair enough, but the outcome could be the same if you have low op fighters in the party... I mean if Broken is equal to unbalance then chain gating solars are doing just that unless the other players do that too or the enemies do it... I assume the enemies would too...

[JoshuaZ]

How? Since you can create Pun pun at level 1, is level 1 broken too? Is playing 4 level 15 fighters broken?


Pun pun requires a whole bunch of splatbooks and one specific badly written ability to work. That's very different than in-core broken spells and abilities.




Sure... call it that. But the point is the game only "breaks down" if you choose to, therefore it does not automatically happen, ergo its not broken per! You can play a low-mid optimized game and nothing breaks down!

This argument doesn't work at three levels. First, what people consider optimized varies massively from group to group or even within a group. Second, one of the more serious problems is that many of the most seriously broken things come from wizards, and wizards in-game the hyper intelligent people who are trying to break the laws of the universe. If an int 22 wizard isn't optimizing their spell selection, then they likely aren't roleplaying well. Third, in order to avoid too much optimization one has to cut out whole swaths of the game; I'm not convinced the level 15 claim is true, but certainly by level 21 the degree to which epic spellcasting can be abused renders many in game threats irrelevant. And epic spellcasting is a system where one is explicitly able to make new spells; note that if one restricts to the existing spells then the system is insanely weak and hard to use.



Our DM said many years ago, that all the tricks we used, any other NPC worth his/her salt knew too... So unless we wanted to fight Pun Pun... we should think carefully what we abused...

Is this something your PCs are aware of in game? How is this not functionally bad metagaming? "Oh, I could take Maximized Time-Stop as a spell-like ability, but if I do it, the Dark Lord might also" makes no sense.



EDIT: That saves increase faster than its possible to increase the spell DC, mages are actually becoming relatively weaker over time as they increase in level... That's a broken mechanic.

This comment suggests that you simply don't know much about how to optimize mages. First, this is to a large extent not true. Second, by the time you are high level, one shouldn't be targeting things which allow a save anyways.

I absolutely love 3.5 and PF but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that getting them to work well at high levels in a consistent way requires a lot of either rule changes or having PCs actively restrain their own choices in ways which stretch credulity.

[Âmesang]

…and now I'm reminded of the hordling generator page I made ages ago; I forgot how high I got with it (due to memory limitations), but CR 500,000 (https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/hordling.php?cr=500000) seemed adequate enough. :smallamused:

[Melcar]

Pun pun requires a whole bunch of splatbooks and one specific badly written ability to work. That's very different than in-core broken spells and abilities.
Ok... But fair enough. We use all official content, so I dont look at it that way.



This argument doesn't work at three levels. First, what people consider optimized varies massively from group to group or even within a group. Second, one of the more serious problems is that many of the most seriously broken things come from wizards, and wizards in-game the hyper intelligent people who are trying to break the laws of the universe. If an int 22 wizard isn't optimizing their spell selection, then they likely aren't roleplaying well. Third, in order to avoid too much optimization one has to cut out whole swaths of the game; I'm not convinced the level 15 claim is true, but certainly by level 21 the degree to which epic spellcasting can be abused renders many in game threats irrelevant. And epic spellcasting is a system where one is explicitly able to make new spells; note that if one restricts to the existing spells then the system is insanely weak and hard to use.
I agree that the first thing was to agree to a definition... if we don't the whole discussion is moot.

You have always been able to create your own spells...



Is this something your PCs are aware of in game? How is this not functionally bad metagaming? "Oh, I could take Maximized Time-Stop as a spell-like ability, but if I do it, the Dark Lord might also" makes no sense.
Well... it was for the players. Sure its meta-knowledge, but he did it because he wanted us (me the wizard) to think hard on how much optimization I wanted, because it could get out of hands... fast. Also, that if my mage of under 50 years thought of the trick we could be sure Larloch, Szass Tam and other BBEG had thought of it too...

You might not like it, but if worked for us. So, my mage simple does not (ingame) know of the abusive nature of the Sarrukh Su ability or stuff like that... luckily we haven't meat anyone who did.. Not yet at least :smallwink:




This comment suggests that you simply don't know much about how to optimize mages. First, this is to a large extent not true. Second, by the time you are high level, one shouldn't be targeting things which allow a save anyways.
The save increate a 1/2 levels. Spell DC does not inherently increase, only by increasing your stats, Spell level or Spell Focus feats... It does not happen just by increasing in level as does save. I do know how to optimize, I have read all the guides... But I dont like to, nor would it fit my character...



I absolutely love 3.5 and PF but that doesn't mean I can't acknowledge that getting them to work well at high levels in a consistent way requires a lot of either rule changes or having PCs actively restrain their own choices in ways which stretch credulity.
#Me too... he he

It a matter of definition first off, and how much of a problem you think the flaws are, combined with the type of player you are playing with... and the makeup of the specific game being played. The game contains options that makes Pun Pun possible, but at level 50 you could be having a great time playing too... without anyone feeling left out or the game breaking (whatever that means)

I totally agree that there are tons of poor writing, poor design, flawed abilities, too few options for mundanes and the list goes on, but I don't think the game is so poorly written that the game breaks, as in becomes so imbalanced between tier 1 and 5, that the game is no longer playable... not in and of itself. If that happens at level 15 or 21 then that's the players going for imbalance! A jerk wizard and a lax DM letting him outshine the unoptimized monk... or what ever...

[JoshuaZ]

Ok... But fair enough. We use all official content, so I dont look at it that way.

But in practice you are cutting out a massive amount of official content.




I agree that the first thing was to agree to a definition... if we don't the whole discussion is moot.

I'm not sure what your point is here. What definition is in question in my comment?



You have always been able to create your own spells...

Epic spellcasting is a system which has extremely detailed and specific rules about how to create epic spells. That's very different than a handwavy statement to DMs.




Well... it was for the players. Sure its meta-knowledge, but he did it because he wanted us (me the wizard) to think hard on how much optimization I wanted, because it could get out of hands... fast. Also, that if my mage of under 50 years thought of the trick we could be sure Larloch, Szass Tam and other BBEG had thought of it too...

You might not like it, but if worked for us. So, my mage simple does not (ingame) know of the abusive nature of the Sarrukh Su ability or stuff like that... luckily we haven't meat anyone who did.. Not yet at least :smallwink:

If it works for you, more power to you and your group. But the fact is that you are massively cutting out things from the game, and not just stuff like Sarrukh's abilities but a large part of the material you can find in the SRD. No one is asserting that there are not solutions and it can be made to work. The point is that it requires a lot of *effort* to do so. As you yourself say, you are engaging in major metagaming to explain why your wizard doesn't do some things.




The save increate a 1/2 levels. Spell DC does not inherently increase, only by increasing your stats, Spell level or Spell Focus feats...


Stat increases happen automatically. A wizard is going to keep increasing their intelligence, and get items which increase intelligence. And only the strongest saves increase at 1/2 level. A minimally intelligent wizard doesn't target the strongest save but the weakest save, and that's before we get to the fact that I specifically discussed not targeting saves at all.



I do know how to optimize, I have read all the guides... But I dont like to, nor would it fit my character...

So again you have to specifically make characters who, despite the incredible dangers around them, with possibly the fate of the world at hand, and being smarter than almost any other human on the planet (and certainly smarter than a normal human), decides to not bother using the best spells they can.

And one thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of games out there where one doesn't need to worry about players being "jerks" or accidentally optimizing too much. E6-core for example works pretty well, and E6 works pretty well even with a whole bunch of splat books thrown. Because low level D&D is actually not that broken. There's a substantial change happening. If one prefers imagine a new player entering your group who hasn't played with you before and hasn't discussed the balance point much at all. What's the chance that at 5th level their new character is overpowered or underpowered compared to the other players? By how much? Now imagine this at 15th level or 25th level. Notice the chance of something being drastically mispowered goes up.

[Melcar]

But in practice you are cutting out a massive amount of official content.
But you are always doing that... I character can only have so much classes, feats etc... Choosing not to Pun Pun is not removing a whole lot of stuff. When you build your character you might just build for something that is not Pun Pun... or Incantatrix... Thats not the same as removing stuff from the game...



I'm not sure what your point is here. What definition is in question in my comment?
I'm just saying that a discussion of what is broken requires a fairly agreed upon definition of what broken means. When I use broken i mean unplayable. How I define unplayable is not set in stone... it could mean a lot of things... Sadly it now easy to agree really...



Epic spellcasting is a system which has extremely detailed and specific rules about how to create epic spells. That's very different than a handwavy statement to DMs.
Indeed... but the DM still tells you plenty. And yes the Epic Magic system is very poorly written, why I don't think its cool, and why my mage has opted to not use it yet...



If it works for you, more power to you and your group. But the fact is that you are massively cutting out things from the game, and not just stuff like Sarrukh's abilities but a large part of the material you can find in the SRD. No one is asserting that there are not solutions and it can be made to work. The point is that it requires a lot of *effort* to do so. As you yourself say, you are engaging in major metagaming to explain why your wizard doesn't do some things.
I think its fair to assume that what your character knows are based on his knowledge checks. I also think its fair to assume that since the game world is not overrun by Pun Puns, its simply not possible or else Larloch, Ioulaum, Szass Tam or the Srinshee would have done it by now... Maybe the knowledge of the Sarrukh's abilities have been lost to the ages, and that's the reason for why there are no Pun Puns in the game world. My wizard does not do certain things because its not his style. I don't use a familiar, I don't bind demons, devils or celestials, I don't live on a pocket plane because I have never found that spell ingame, nor do I think its cool. Obviously I'm choosing options that are adequate to the challenge of the game as a whole, but more so I'm choosing things I think is cool and that fit the overall demeanor and style of the character... Some DM's might throw epic dragons at us and so I would gate in abominations from ELH, but I consider that weak... having to get "friends" to help you... The classes that my wizard has, is mainly chosen for its fluff, but also if it brings some added ability or power to the character... So not the most powerful PrC in the game...



Stat increases happen automatically. A wizard is going to keep increasing their intelligence, and get items which increase intelligence. And only the strongest saves increase at 1/2 level. A minimally intelligent wizard doesn't target the strongest save but the weakest save, and that's before we get to the fact that I specifically discussed not targeting saves at all.
Yes at 1/4 level so for each 8 level you get +1 to DC. The same 8 levels gives +4 to saves... And its all three saves that increase! Items yes, but items can increase saves more.. because saves are cheaper than stats. Indeed a wizard should try to use spells that attack the weakest save or use Save: No spells, but my point was that its an actually design that ends op making a wizard unable to get spells in.



So again you have to specifically make characters who, despite the incredible dangers around them, with possibly the fate of the world at hand, and being smarter than almost any other human on the planet (and certainly smarter than a normal human), decides to not bother using the best spells they can.
Well you have to understand that not all games are created equally. The arms race between player and DM we are long pased... We have yet to have any fate of the world quests... and the chances that they would come up in the time our characters are alive, considering the planet is around 40k old, are small. And if they did there are more powerful beings to take care of that. Because if its the fate of the planet at risk, you can be damn sure that we would not be able to stop it... If were talking Pandorym level risk... anything less than that is not really the fate of the world...



And one thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of games out there where one doesn't need to worry about players being "jerks" or accidentally optimizing too much. E6-core for example works pretty well, and E6 works pretty well even with a whole bunch of splat books thrown. Because low level D&D is actually not that broken. There's a substantial change happening. If one prefers imagine a new player entering your group who hasn't played with you before and hasn't discussed the balance point much at all. What's the chance that at 5th level their new character is overpowered or underpowered compared to the other players? By how much? Now imagine this at 15th level or 25th level. Notice the chance of something being drastically mispowered goes up.
I don't know E6...

[JoshuaZ]

But you are always doing that... I character can only have so much classes, feats etc... Choosing not to Pun Pun is not removing a whole lot of stuff. When you build your character you might just build for something that is not Pun Pun... or Incantatrix... Thats not the same as removing stuff from the game...


I'm not sure why you keep focusing on Pun Pun; Pun Pun is an extreme example. Many of the game breaking issues are in Core, or are in very commonly owned books like Complete Arcane.



I'm just saying that a discussion of what is broken requires a fairly agreed upon definition of what broken means. When I use broken i mean unplayable. How I define unplayable is not set in stone... it could mean a lot of things... Sadly it now easy to agree really...

If the definition is "unplayable" then almost nothing in the universe is unplayable. Heck, by that definition, 3.5 wouldn't be broken even if one changed things so that wizards got twice as many spells per a day as they do, and automatically got the ability when they cast a spell to sacrifice another prepared spell to add the spell's level to the save DC. This suggests that your definition of broken isn't capturing most people's intuitions of the idea.




Indeed... but the DM still tells you plenty. And yes the Epic Magic system is very poorly written, why I don't think its cool, and why my mage has opted to not use it yet...

So, we have a fundamental part of high level play which takes up about a third of the epic rules, and it is poorly written and something you opt not to use. How is that not what most people mean when they say broken?




I think its fair to assume that what your character knows are based on his knowledge checks. I also think its fair to assume that since the game world is not overrun by Pun Puns, its simply not possible or else Larloch, Ioulaum, Szass Tam or the Srinshee would have done it by now... Maybe the knowledge of the Sarrukh's abilities have been lost to the ages, and that's the reason for why there are no Pun Puns in the game world. My wizard does not do certain things because its not his style. I don't use a familiar, I don't bind demons, devils or celestials, I don't live on a pocket plane because I have never found that spell ingame, nor do I think its cool. Obviously I'm choosing options that are adequate to the challenge of the game as a whole, but more so I'm choosing things I think is cool and that fit the overall demeanor and style of the character... Some DM's might throw epic dragons at us and so I would gate in abominations from ELH, but I consider that weak... having to get "friends" to help you... The classes that my wizard has, is mainly chosen for its fluff, but also if it brings some added ability or power to the character... So not the most powerful PrC in the game...

Please stop focusing on PunPun.

A wizard doesn't need to know obscure things to know that spells like Forcecage exist or that Wall of Fire exists; both are in core. A wizard can cast both at 13th level. This is devastating. And if you have a level or two in Archmage (a core PrC and a major fluff reason for most wizards to take) then you don't even need to worry about them having resistance or immunity to fire. This isn't the only example. A wizard who is simply being intelligent can do pretty awful stuff.



but my point was that its an actually design that ends op making a wizard unable to get spells in.

It is something that attempts at balancing that and fails pretty miserably.




Well you have to understand that not all games are created equally. The arms race between player and DM we are long pased...

There doesn't need to be an arms race between players and DMs. The first PC I ever statted up for a game was a battlefield control wizard; I didn't know much about the game, but it was clear that a lot of those spells were more effective than outright damage dealing. I made a functionally close to broken character accidentally. That shouldn't be easily doable.



We have yet to have any fate of the world quests... and the chances that they would come up in the time our characters are alive, considering the planet is around 40k old, are small. And if they did there are more powerful beings to take care of that. Because if its the fate of the planet at risk, you can be damn sure that we would not be able to stop it... If were talking Pandorym level risk... anything less than that is not really the fate of the world...

So in order to play D&D without breaking things you have to avoid the most classic sort of quests possible?




I don't know E6...

Behold (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/97252/what-is-e6-why-would-i-use-it).

[Melcar]

I'm not sure why you keep focusing on Pun Pun; Pun Pun is an extreme example. Many of the game breaking issues are in Core, or are in very commonly owned books like Complete Arcane.


Fair enough...



If the definition is "unplayable" then almost nothing in the universe is unplayable. Heck, by that definition, 3.5 wouldn't be broken even if one changed things so that wizards got twice as many spells per a day as they do, and automatically got the ability when they cast a spell to sacrifice another prepared spell to add the spell's level to the save DC. This suggests that your definition of broken isn't capturing most people's intuitions of the idea.
That's just my definition... What is most people's definition then?




So, we have a fundamental part of high level play which takes up about a third of the epic rules, and it is poorly written and something you opt not to use. How is that not what most people mean when they say broken?[QUOTE
I'm not using it, because i think its uncool primarily... But I don't know what people define as broken...



[QUOTE]Please stop focusing on PunPun.

A wizard doesn't need to know obscure things to know that spells like Forcecage exist or that Wall of Fire exists; both are in core. A wizard can cast both at 13th level. This is devastating. And if you have a level or two in Archmage (a core PrC and a major fluff reason for most wizards to take) then you don't even need to worry about them having resistance or immunity to fire. This isn't the only example. A wizard who is simply being intelligent can do pretty awful stuff.
Ok I'll stop...

Core does not mean they automatically know the spells... I would say that all knowledge is spells are based on Knowledge Arcana...



There doesn't need to be an arms race between players and DMs. The first PC I ever statted up for a game was a battlefield control wizard; I didn't know much about the game, but it was clear that a lot of those spells were more effective than outright damage dealing. I made a functionally close to broken character accidentally. That shouldn't be easily doable.
What does "functionally close to broken" mean?




So in order to play D&D without breaking things you have to avoid the most classic sort of quests possible?
I did not say that... What I said was, that we have not have had to save the world. Its faerun, things that actually threaten the Planet of Toril or the Crystal Spere are so far beyond us, that basically only the super powerful chosen of whatever deity, the deities themselves or Lord AO will be able to stop - not a few adventures. If we are alble to stop it, its not really threatening the whole world!

Also, I think that if there are planetary threatening dangers coming every generation, but somehow the planet/world continues without any real effects then they are not really dangerous enough...

Also I personally think its lame to imagine that our group is the best choice for something that can effectively threaten the entire world... And en Faerun that sort of thing is always taken care of by AO... So yes, no save the world quests thank god! However, much save this land, slay tribe, lich stop wizard imprisoning part of deity's power, stop red wizards etc...





Behold (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/97252/what-is-e6-why-would-i-use-it).
Cool... I'll check that out!

[JoshuaZ]

That's just my definition... What is most people's definition then?


I'm not sure what a good definition is, and obviously I-know-it-when-I-see-it isn't great, but if the definition is "not easily playable without serious rule changes" or something close to that, which I think is close to what most people mean, then the basic point about high level D&D is pretty accurate. Unfortunately, while a book like the Immortal Handbook should have handled that, it made things worse (although there are a few things in the Ascension book that don't seem that bad).



Core does not mean they automatically know the spells... I would say that all knowledge is spells are based on Knowledge Arcana...

Ok. For a spell in core, what would be the DC to know a 7th level spell?




What does "functionally close to broken" mean?

Something close to what I defined above, not being playable without a lot of rule changes or implicit metagaming.





I did not say that... What I said was, that we have not have had to save the world. Its faerun, things that actually threaten the Planet of Toril or the Crystal Spere are so far beyond us, that basically only the super powerful chosen of whatever deity, the deities themselves or Lord AO will be able to stop - not a few adventures. If we are alble to stop it, its not really threatening the whole world!

Also, I think that if there are planetary threatening dangers coming every generation, but somehow the planet/world continues without any real effects then they are not really dangerous enough...

Or the only reason the world has survived is narrative fiat or the anthropic principle. More substantially PCs in Faerun do at those levels stop near world-ending things; multiple of the 3.5 Elder Evils are explicitly set in Faerun and aren't that high level.



Also I personally think its lame to imagine that our group is the best choice for something that can effectively threaten the entire world... And en Faerun that sort of thing is always taken care of by AO... So yes, no save the world quests thank god! However, much save this land, slay tribe, lich stop wizard imprisoning part of deity's power, stop red wizards etc...

Ao does very little to actually intervene in Faerun, but it is true that there's more very high level things and high level involvement and divine involvement in the setting than in many other D&D settings. I think actually that one reasons many people don't like Faerun/FR is because there's so many high level beings that it isn't clear why PCs who are anything short of epic should be doing anything at all. And even high level PCs feel like they are running on what amounts to safety rails.



Cool... I'll check that out!

You should. It is excellent. A very fun way to play D&D and there are a lot of worlds now built around E6 or systems close to it.

[Florian]

@ColorBlindNinja:

Personally, I don´t like certain blanket statements, like "anyone agrees on" or "everybody knows X is broken", as most of the time, they turn out not to be true, at least not as universally true as they people using them like a meme want them to be.

For example, 3E/3.5E used a very simple design decision: Everything that will be added will only be referenced and cross-checked against core, nothing else. It was the default stance that GMs will add new stuff piece by piece after approval.
The second design decision is also easy to understand: While the system is designed for transparency, the tools for the GM are build differently than the tools for the players, even tho they are functionally compatible (as in, everything aimed towards players i weighted on the class system, everything for the GM on the CR system, quite a difference).
(The PF GMG spells out the third design decision the clearest: If a player uses something to break the game, take it away immediately, no arguments. Yes, that is only hinted at with a very tiny voice in the old DMGs, you know, because fear of the tyrannical AD&D 2nd GM, but it´s there, too)

Generally speaking, the stuff they gave us are options, nothing more. In a group-based social activity, every participant has the responsibility to make the game fun for everyone else, play to the agreed style and power level and be responsible enough with the stuff you use, else you break something.

You know, stuff like the Tippyverse have already reached meme-like qualities on this forum. If you don't want to end up there, just don't go there, simple as that. Same for the Shadow Apocalypse and similar topics. It´s like, you know, I could drive my Audi at speeds way past 200 Kmh, but I'm not forced to just because I can and especially not if I want a leisurely sunday afternoon cruise.

[Heliomance]

Amilictli, CR 46


https://web.archive.org/web/20140101162547im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Amilictli-web.jpg



Pretty sure that's the Michelin Man

[Karl Aegis]

The biggest criticism I've seen of this book is some of the monsters don't really have a place in the game. Any demi-god worth his salt is going to shred all abominations, but quasi-dieties aren't strong enough to challenge an abomination alone. Also, the jump from quasi-diety to demigod gives you an entire 10 ECL, going from ECL 49 at 29 hit dice to 60 at 30 hit dice. This leaves quite a few areas where enemies aren't an appropriate challenge unless in large numbers. I would suggest bumming around at divine ranks longer, maybe increasing hit dice requirements to get to the next bump.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Personally, I don´t like certain blanket statements, like "anyone agrees on" or "everybody knows X is broken", as most of the time, they turn out not to be true, at least not as universally true as they people using them like a meme want them to be.

I said "generally accepted", IIRC.

EDIT: It turns out I made a more blanket statement in the OP. I mostly did that because it sounds better in an essay. I did mean it to be "generally accepted" even though that's not what I wrote.


For example, 3E/3.5E used a very simple design decision: Everything that will be added will only be referenced and cross-checked against core, nothing else.

Considering how broken Core is, I'd say that design decision failed utterly.



You know, stuff like the Tippyverse have already reached meme-like qualities on this forum. If you don't want to end up there, just don't go there, simple as that. Same for the Shadow Apocalypse and similar topics. It´s like, you know, I could drive my Audi at speeds way past 200 Kmh, but I'm not forced to just because I can and especially not if I want a leisurely sunday afternoon cruise.

That doesn't mean that the system isn't broken, just because you avoid the broken bits.


The biggest criticism I've seen of this book is some of the monsters don't really have a place in the game. Any demi-god worth his salt is going to shred all abominations, but quasi-dieties aren't strong enough to challenge an abomination alone. Also, the jump from quasi-diety to demigod gives you an entire 10 ECL, going from ECL 49 at 29 hit dice to 60 at 30 hit dice. This leaves quite a few areas where enemies aren't an appropriate challenge unless in large numbers. I would suggest bumming around at divine ranks longer, maybe increasing hit dice requirements to get to the next bump.

It is worth noting that the second Immortal Handbook product (Ascension) preforms a complete overhaul on how gods and divine ranks function.

[Melcar]

I said "generally accepted", IIRC.

EDIT: It turns out I made a more blanket statement in the OP. I mostly did that because it sounds better in an essay. I did mean it to be "generally accepted" even though that's not what I wrote.
But is it though... at level 15? Could you provide any substantial proof of this statement? Its the first (as in this thread) that I have heard level 15 being "broken".



Considering how broken Core is, I'd say that design decision failed utterly.
Could you clarify exactly what you mean when you say broken? Because I have played many games since year 2000 all using PHB and DMG and MM without anything happening... So what does "broken mean?



That doesn't mean that the system isn't broken, just because you avoid the broken bits.
No, it just means that it doesn't matter. A wizard can be very powerful without cheesing it.. Especially, when hopyfully the DM and players somewhat makes sure the challenge fits to the party... so whats the problem? Is it really a problem that some people think that the rules don't work?

[ColorBlindNinja]

But is it though... at level 15? Could you provide any substantial proof of this statement? Its the first (as in this thread) that I have heard level 15 being "broken".

I already talked about this. It's mostly the spells that tier 1 classes gain access to.


Could you clarify exactly what you mean when you say broken? Because I have played many games since year 2000 all using PHB and DMG and MM without anything happening... So what does "broken mean?

Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Simulacrum. Wizards, Druids, Clerics. These are all core and highly overpowered.


No, it just means that it doesn't matter. A wizard can be very powerful without cheesing it.. Especially, when hopyfully the DM and players somewhat makes sure the challenge fits to the party... so whats the problem? Is it really a problem that some people think that the rules don't work?

That's not this works. If the game has broken content, it has broken content. Whether you choose to use or not doesn't change the fact it's there.

[Melcar]

I already talked about this. It's mostly the spells that tier 1 classes gain access to.
But is it generally agreed upon tho? Do you have evidence for this statement? Is there a poll or a large base of scientific data on this matter that I'm unaware of...



Shapechange, Gate, Wish, Simulacrum. Wizards, Druids, Clerics. These are all core and highly overpowered.
Highly overpowered compared to what? Power and over power are relative terms... If your party is comprised only by wizards and your DM is Tippy??? Then nothing is overpowered... You gotta define what broken means! Is it: to separate into parts with suddenness or violence; or to render inoperable; or do you mean there is an imbalance between things... Can you please define the meaning of the word broken in this context. When I use "broken" it means that its rendered inoperable as in does not function as in unplayable... what do you mean?



That's not this works. If the game has broken content, it has broken content. Whether you choose to use or not doesn't change the fact it's there.
But how is it broken and whats the problem? It honestly very difficult having an enlightened conversations when the very definition of the thing we discuss is not clear.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But is it generally agreed upon tho? Do you have evidence for this statement? Is there a poll or a large base of scientific data on this matter that I'm unaware of...



Highly overpowered compared to what? Power and over power are relative terms... If your party is comprised only by wizards and your DM is Tippy??? Then nothing is overpowered... You gotta define what broken means! Is it: to separate into parts with suddenness or violence; or to render inoperable; or do you mean there is an imbalance between things... Can you please define the meaning of the word broken in this context. When I use "broken" it means that its rendered inoperable as in does not function as in unplayable... what do you mean?



But how are they broken and whats the problem? It honestly very difficult having an enlightened conversations when the very definition of the thing we discuss is not clear.


No offense, but this might be a subject to create an entirely new thread about.

EDIT: It's a pretty big topic that will probably go on for several dozen pages.

[Elricaltovilla]

I would be very interested in seeing the next monster in this very odd bestiary. Much better than yet another thread arguing over the "brokenness"(or lack thereof) of 3.5.

[Mike Miller]

I would be very interested in seeing the next monster in this very odd bestiary. Much better than yet another thread arguing over the "brokenness"(or lack thereof) of 3.5.

I agree. Blanket statements are never 100% true. Next entry

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ask and you shall receive. :smallwink:


Odium, CR 33


Once again, I really couldn't find a working picture, it looks like a giant Venus fly trap with tentacles.


As if the book heard me complaining about how samey all the previous monsters are, it gives us this thing! This plant creature enslaves people starting with rural areas and eventually, taking over the entire world! Like some kind of plant supervillain. Fluffwise, the Odium results from the creations of nature gods that were corrupted, which is neat.

The Odium casts as a 27th level Druid (CL 59) and gets a nice collection of SLAs (also CL 59), including Shapechange and Dominate Monster.

They also can enslave people by grappling them, which as far as I can tell isn’t mind effecting. It always has 1d6-1 puppets of levels that are equal to 1d10+20. On average, that’s 3 level 25 characters and the Odium explicitly prefers Arcane spellcasters and warriors. Meaning, it probably has at least 1 epic spellcaster in its employ.

Worse still, the Odium can create a seed that will slowly grow into a clone if the original is slain. It’s also got Regeneration 25 and DR 25, both bypassed by epic and good.

Furthermore, this creature has epic spellcasting (albeit with some crappy epic spells) and can summon a Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm) once per day. To top it all off, the Odium has 12 tentacle attacks to use, making meleeing one a dicey proposition at best.

The Odium is the first monster in this book that I think is worth its challenge rating. Even right out of the box, it has Shapechange and with a bit of DM customization, it becomes infinitely more dangerous.

It will likely have access to at least one epic spellcaster and whatever minions it nabbed with its spells. Finally, even if the PCs kill it, it probably will just emerge from a seed it planted at some far-off lair.

I think this is the first monster in this book that I truly like and if I ever ran an epic game, I might want to include one. :smallsmile:

[Karl Aegis]

It's an evil pair of lips with tentacles coming out the other side. It's also an evil bush.

[Elricaltovilla]

It's an evil pair of lips with tentacles coming out the other side. It's also an evil bush.

So like this (http://littleshop.wikia.com/wiki/Audrey_II)?

[Karl Aegis]

So like this (http://littleshop.wikia.com/wiki/Audrey_II)?

Make the head part thinner and open the mouth wider and you have an odium. Oh, and it's strangling a guy in a robe and wizard hat.

[JoshuaZ]

Ask and you shall receive. :smallwink:


Odium, CR 33


Once again, I really couldn't find a working picture, it looks like a giant Venus fly trap with tentacles.


As if the book heard me complaining about how samey all the previous monsters are, it gives us this thing! This plant creature enslaves people starting with rural areas and eventually, taking over the entire world! Like some kind of plant supervillain. Fluffwise, the Odium results from the creations of nature gods that were corrupted, which is neat.

The Odium casts as a 27th level Druid (CL 59) and gets a nice collection of SLAs (also CL 59), including Shapechange and Dominate Monster.

They also can enslave people by grappling them, which as far as I can tell isn’t mind effecting. It always has 1d6-1 puppets of levels that are equal to 1d10+20. On average, that’s 3 level 25 characters and the Odium explicitly prefers Arcane spellcasters and warriors. Meaning, it probably has at least 1 epic spellcaster in its employ.

Worse still, the Odium can create a seed that will slowly grow into a clone if the original is slain. It’s also got Regeneration 25 and DR 25, both bypassed by epic and good.

Furthermore, this creature has epic spellcasting (albeit with some crappy epic spells) and can summon a Mu Spore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/muSpore.htm) once per day. To top it all off, the Odium has 12 tentacle attacks to use, making meleeing one a dicey proposition at best.

The Odium is the first monster in this book that I think is worth its challenge rating. Even right out of the box, it has Shapechange and with a bit of DM customization, it becomes infinitely more dangerous.

It will likely have access to at least one epic spellcaster and whatever minions it nabbed with its spells. Finally, even if the PCs kill it, it probably will just emerge from a seed it planted at some far-off lair.

I think this is the first monster in this book that I truly like and if I ever ran an epic game, I might want to include one. :smallsmile:

That actually sounds pretty neat, and might be a fun creature to have. I don't generally run Epic games but this monster could make me wish I did. I can see a whole bunch of fun things one could do with it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That actually sounds pretty neat, and might be a fun creature to have. I don't generally run Epic games but this monster could make me wish I did. I can see a whole bunch of fun things one could do with it.

This monster could fuel an entire campaign and serve as a high level boss encounter at the end of it.

[Kalkra]

Unlike many of these abilities, saving against the Enslave ability doesn't make you immune to it. It could just let go and then grapple you again. Or, y'know, kill you.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Unlike many of these abilities, saving against the Enslave ability doesn't make you immune to it. It could just let go and then grapple you again. Or, y'know, kill you.

I'd be more concerned about that, but parties at these levels are going to have Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement.

Sure, the Odium could dispel those buffs, but I'm not certain that'd be the most optimal course of action for it to take.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, at this point in the game - and arguably way before that - to make a really challenging foe you need to give it a bunch of SLAs at minimum, and racial casting is even better. Which the Odium has. Granted, the CL is kinda out of whack, but it's still a lot better than the snooze some supposedly "epic" monsters are. Druid spellcasting might not be the best, honestly, but it's still one of the most supported lists in the entire game.

[Kalkra]

Having read through the Bestiary and Ascension, one of the things that jumped out the most to me (other than the poor editing, balance, etc.) was the vocabulary. I googled "anaretic", and then had to look up the definitions of the word in the definition. I mean, how did the author even think/know of these words? A thesaurus isn't going to cut of this stuff, yet I find it difficult to believe that the author is conversant in both obscure medical conditions and Greek astrology. Then again, I do know a guy like that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Honestly, at this point in the game - and arguably way before that - to make a really challenging foe you need to give it a bunch of SLAs at minimum, and racial casting is even better. Which the Odium has. Granted, the CL is kinda out of whack, but it's still a lot better than the snooze some supposedly "epic" monsters are. Druid spellcasting might not be the best, honestly, but it's still one of the most supported lists in the entire game.

I think it's caster level is out of whack because the book's author said he wanted them to be able to beat the spell resistance of their fellow monsters.

[danielxcutter]

Does anyone know how I can get a look at this without spending money?

[JoshuaZ]

I think it's caster level is out of whack because the book's author said he wanted them to be able to beat the spell resistance of their fellow monsters.

The obvious solutions to that are to either a) give it bonuses to penetrating spell resistance b) give more supernatural abilities. SR is in general not well constructed. Like many things in this book, it seems like the authors had no good options but then took one of the worse ones.

[danielxcutter]

The obvious solutions to that are to either a) give it bonuses to penetrating spell resistance b) give more supernatural abilities. SR is in general not well constructed. Like many things in this book, it seems like the authors had no good options but then took one of the worse ones.

Or c) use SR:No spells.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The obvious solutions to that are to either a) give it bonuses to penetrating spell resistance b) give more supernatural abilities. SR is in general not well constructed.

Either would have worked.


Like many things in this book, it seems like the authors had no good options but then took one of the worse ones.

That statement would seem accurate. :smallbiggrin:

[OgresAreCute]

Yeah, this plant thing is actually cool. The previous ones are either really lame (Anakim) or downright silly (Henry the Hoover and Snuffleupagus). This plant thing immediately made me think of how it could be a cool BBEG for a campaign that ends in the low-ish epic levels.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/531092648598175751/538267948264194059/unknown.png

Looks like that Fighter knows where this is going.

[Eldan]

I'll agree that this actually sounds like something that could work. But probably too high level for me to ever use, especially if it has epic level minions. Epic level characters don't just walk around in most of my worlds.

[danielxcutter]

I'll agree that this actually sounds like something that could work. But probably too high level for me to ever use, especially if it has epic level minions. Epic level characters don't just walk around in most of my worlds.

To be fair, a monster with a CR this high is likely to only be used in stupidly-high-leveled Epic games anyways.

[Eldan]

Oh, I know. I'm just saying I'm tempted to try and write a challenge rating ~20 version of this.

[Theoboldi]

I'll agree that this actually sounds like something that could work. But probably too high level for me to ever use, especially if it has epic level minions. Epic level characters don't just walk around in most of my worlds.

I will admit, part of me loves the stupidly large scale behind this monster. This is a creature that has travelled many worlds, enslaving the greatest champions of each to its will. Each of its guardians is an elite warrior with a history more illustrious than most complete adventuring parties. With every world it conqers, it brings more of these heroes under its thrall, and destroys ever greater civilizations.

It's an actually fitting epic challenge. Which is rare.

[Eldan]

Okay, that is pretty dang cool, I will admit.

[gkathellar]

I think it's caster level is out of whack because the book's author said he wanted them to be able to beat the spell resistance of their fellow monsters.

How very circular.

I agree that Audrey is actually a pretty cool concept, but I take issue with aspects of the implementation ("the monster is accompanied by 0-5 epic level PCs" is bad design, full stop - things like that should be left to encounter design). There are some interesting ideas mixed in here (like the demiplane-stomach thing, even if that is actually just Gluttony from FMA), it's just, like ... they're expressed entirely in the medium of pantomime, and the author isn't even a very good mime.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sadim, CR 36


Picture link (please work!) (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z_ECg2V0zt4/TdRrRJvDcDI/AAAAAAAAUFk/r_H_sCF2Nbw/s1600/sadim.jpg)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z_ECg2V0zt4/TdRrRJvDcDI/AAAAAAAAUFk/r_H_sCF2Nbw/s1600/sadim.jpg


The Sadim is a lot less interesting than the Odium, sadly. These guys come from gods who are super greedy. They collect magic items and eat gold. They even have a gold breath weapon and infect people with a disease that destroys your wealth. WE GET IT, THEY LIKE GOLD!!!

Weirdly, the Sadim’s DR and Regeneration can be bypassed by weapons that were given to the PCs as gifts. I could easily see this turning into a no-win scenario, where the players can’t actually kill it.

Sadims get a ton of Rogue abilities, they can summon an adult red dragon once per weak (horrible at these levels), and they get some SLAs. The only SLA that’s really that good is Gate, which can, of course, be as abusive as the DM wants to be.

Honestly, the worst thing about this monster is the disease that destroys your stuff. That could easily cripple a character, given how much wealth epic characters have. Other than that? Besides the players not being able to kill the Sadim, it’s not that impressive. Another boring monster…

And that was the last of the Abominations. All in all, only the Odium was actually worthy of its CR. We’ll move on to some templates next time!

[JoshuaZ]

Weirdly, the Sadim’s DR and Regeneration can be bypassed by weapons that were given to the PCs as gifts. I could easily see this turning into a no-win scenario, where the players can’t actually kill it.


This is the sort of symbolic thing which is great in a story or a myth, but is really not great when one is trying to make a mimimally balanced game.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This is the sort of symbolic thing which is great in a story or a myth, but is really not great when one is trying to make a mimimally balanced game.

I agree, it's very thematic, but it could screw over the entire party.

[danielxcutter]

Thematic, yes. CR-worthy... nah. The idea is very cool, I'll say that much, but that's about it.

[Khedrac]

Weirdly, the Sadim’s DR and Regeneration can be bypassed by weapons that were given to the PCs as gifts. I could easily see this turning into a no-win scenario, where the players can’t actually kill it.


This is the sort of symbolic thing which is great in a story or a myth, but is really not great when one is trying to make a mimimally balanced game.

This basically comes down to "do the PCs make the knowledge check to know this?"

It is the standard technique for dealing with something whose regeneration you cannot bypass right now - pummel it down to several thousand negative hit points and then find a way to kill it.
If they make the knowledge check then one party member says to the main damage dealer "here, I give you my dagger" and one coup de grace later the Sadim is dead and the dagger gets given back.
If they don't, it's either you spells that can kill by bypassing the regen mechanic or wander around with an unconsious creature until someone can tell them how to kill it.

[danielxcutter]

This basically comes down to "do the PCs make the knowledge check to know this?"

It is the standard technique for dealing with something whose regeneration you cannot bypass right now - pummel it down to several thousand negative hit points and then find a way to kill it.
If they make the knowledge check then one party member says to the main damage dealer "here, I give you my dagger" and one coup de grace later the Sadim is dead and the dagger gets given back.
If they don't, it's either you spells that can kill by bypassing the regen mechanic or wander around with an unconsious creature until someone can tell them how to kill it.

Hey, do Abominations need to breath? If so, a bucket of water might work...

[Karl Aegis]

Hey, do Abominations need to breath? If so, a bucket of water might work...

They don't due to their divinity status at the very least.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sorry this one's late, I lost track of time yesterday. :smallredface:


Akalich, CR Variable

(No picture again, I couldn't find one that works. :smallfrown:)

Is it just me, does creating a more powerful version of a Demilich seem kind of an inane thing to do?

An Akalich is so old that it doesn’t have a body anymore, so now it’s incorporeal. Adding the template increase Demilich’s CR by 40, meaning the lowest possible CR it can have is 69.

The Akalich keeps virtually all the same abilities the Demilich had, including 3.0 style magic immunity. It also gets the ability to consume immortal souls, which it has 2d4 of (average 5). If the PCs kill it, it can consume one to bring itself back to life. That’s on top of its phylactery.

The Akalich gives its recipient a +50 to all its mental ability scores, the ability to use all skills, d20 hit dice with max HP for each die, a 900-foot flight speed, and sonic resistance 100. :smallconfused:

Most of the SLAs it gets aren’t very noteworthy except for Astral Projection at will and Wish 3/day. If the Akalich is feeling particularly cruel, it can sacrifice one of its immortal souls to deal damage to equal to its full HP to everyone 100 feet away. No save. :smalleek:

There is a sample statblock here, but it’s horrid. In particular, his spell selection is awful, but he makes up for it by having an OP artifact. It basically gives its user a morale bonus equal to a single opponent’s level to AC, caster level checks, initiative, saving throws and a couple other things. He also gets 10 times his enemy’s level as a bonus to his HP.

This monster falls squarely into the category of “how do you expect anyone to kill it?” This is a 3.5 statblock, so it’s not like you can claim no one updated the Akalich’s magic immunity.

Your best bet in my book is to have an Epic Binder drop a Sphere of Annihilation on it… 6 times.

[JoshuaZ]

Most of the SLAs it gets aren’t very noteworthy except for Astral Projection at will and Wish 3/day. If the Akalich is feeling particularly cruel, it can sacrifice one of its immortal souls to deal damage to its full HP to everyone 100 feet away. No save. :smalleek:


Does the "it" in "its full HP" refer to the Akalich or the beings getting damaged?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Does the "it" in "its full HP" refer to the Akalich or the beings getting damaged?

It means the attack deals damage equal to the Akalich's full HP. Let me edit that so it's more clear.

[Elricaltovilla]

Well the Akalich has both a ridiculous name and ridiculous abilities. Too bad they're opposite meanings of ridiculous. The name is even worse than Demilich (which sounds like a weaker, partial lich as opposed to an obnoxiously OP template) and the Abilities the Akalich has are even more powerful, for no real reason. I suppose this thing is why people consider taking the Lich template from the start even if it's kind of subpar.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well the Akalich has both a ridiculous name and ridiculous abilities. Too bad they're opposite meanings of ridiculous. The name is even worse than Demilich (which sounds like a weaker, partial lich as opposed to an obnoxiously OP template) and the Abilities the Akalich has are even more powerful, for no real reason. I suppose this thing is why people consider taking the Lich template from the start even if it's kind of subpar.

Well, Liches are iconic D&D villains.

I think the Demilich's name comes from the fact it's just a skull.

As for the Akalich...I have no idea what it means. :smallfrown:

[gkathellar]

Well, Liches are iconic D&D villains.

I think the Demilich's name comes from the fact it's just a skull.

As for the Akalich...I have no idea what it means. :smallfrown:

A demilich is traditionally a lich who has retired from the physical world in order to travel the Planes via astral projection. Their skull is an anchor and a port-of-call, a sort of interplanar phylactery, rather than the sum of their being as their body was in times past. This is why they’re generally depicted as just lying around at the bottom of a maze or something, and sometimes they’re even depicted as running on autopilot.

[Elricaltovilla]

I mention it because the prefix "Demi-" usually means "partial." So you would think that a Demilich would only be part lich, someone on their way to becoming a lich as opposed to a being so magically powerful that they kinda forgot they had a body because they have so little use for it.

[Kalkra]

Doe it say anywhere how the LA is calculated?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Doe it say anywhere how the LA is calculated?

For the Akalich?

[Karl Aegis]

Doe it say anywhere how the LA is calculated?

Yes. You want to look at page 27 of Immortals Handbook: Ascension.

[Remuko]

Does this work for the image of the akalich?

https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/images/1e0561bf7984f1ed4add4e096dda0b22a600a3be30fa425ac2 dc418aaccfcbeb.png

[Theoboldi]

It works for me, at least. On that note, I find it pretty interesting that the dreaded Akalich looks like a carved plank of wood with a cloak hung upon it, and a towel wrapped around its upper end as a hat.

It's sinister in an oddly kabuki theater kind of way.

Isn't the example Akalich also called Nimrod, if I recall correctly? Just wanted to bring it up since it is one of the first of many bizarre biblical references, and as far as I recall the only subtle one. The others will be too blindingly obvious to overlook.

[Florian]

Is that... a.... Cloaker?

[danielxcutter]

To be honest, a CR 69 Akalich is not going to do that well with the spellcasting of a 21th-level caster.

[Lapak]

Is that... a.... Cloaker?You know, between this, the Michelin Man, and Aubrey II over there I am beginning to think that the ideal adventuring party to face the Immortals Bestiary drives around in the Mystery Machine.

"Why, you're not an ancient evil of unimaginable power at all! You're just Old Man Cloaker in a funny hat!"

[Eldan]

I now want to dissect that imagine and write a new backstory for the Akalich where it is created when a cloaker and an enchanted wooden board team up and combine into one creature.

[Aniikinis]

Isn't the example Akalich also called Nimrod, if I recall correctly? Just wanted to bring it up since it is one of the first of many bizarre biblical references, and as far as I recall the only subtle one. The others will be too blindingly obvious to overlook.

Yeah, he's named Nimrod. And the angels are by far the worst interpretation I have ever seen, but I'll air my grievances with those as we get to them.:smallmad:


You know, between this, the Michelin Man, and Aubrey II over there I am beginning to think that the ideal adventuring party to face the Immortals Bestiary drives around in the Mystery Machine.

"Why, you're not an ancient evil of unimaginable power at all! You're just Old Man Cloaker in a funny hat!"

Fred (Human Trap Artificer/Unarmed Fighter): "Alright gang, let's split up and look for clues!"
Shaggy (Elf Actor Bard/Ranger with Riding Dog(talking animal template) Animal Companion) "Like, do you think that's a good idea?"
Daphne (Human Monk/Rogue Diplomancer): "It's a great idea!"
Velma (Sassmaster™ Human or Half-Elf Diviner Wizard/Rogue Investigator): "Come on guys, would you do it for a buffing spellscooby snack?"

[Karl Aegis]

To put things in perspective, my level 60 Fighter deals 600 damage on a charge +48 damage for every point their attack roll exceeds the target's AC, up to an additional 1920 damage. Mine had a +85 to-hit with base 15 strength,+8 from level ups, +5 inherent bonus item and a +30 strength item, wielding a +11 Axiomatic, Holy Lance of Ethereal Reaver, Speed. Basically, it would annihilate every single Abomination if it got a Dire Charge off. Oh, and it has 18-20/x7 as it's critical range.

It might give the akalich a run for it's money if the author actually remembers undead don't get morale bonuses.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Does this work for the image of the akalich?

https://projects.inklesspen.com/fatal-and-friends/images/1e0561bf7984f1ed4add4e096dda0b22a600a3be30fa425ac2 dc418aaccfcbeb.png

Yeah, I had trouble finding a picture for whatever reason.



Isn't the example Akalich also called Nimrod, if I recall correctly? Just wanted to bring it up since it is one of the first of many bizarre biblical references, and as far as I recall the only subtle one. The others will be too blindingly obvious to overlook.

Yeah, I forgot to mention that.


Yeah, he's named Nimrod. And the angels are by far the worst interpretation I have ever seen, but I'll air my grievances with those as we get to them.:smallmad:

Agreed.


To put things in perspective, my level 60 Fighter deals 600 damage on a charge +48 damage for every point their attack roll exceeds the target's AC, up to an additional 1920 damage. Mine had a +85 to-hit with base 15 strength,+8 from level ups, +5 inherent bonus item and a +30 strength item, wielding a +11 Axiomatic, Holy Lance of Ethereal Reaver, Speed. Basically, it would annihilate every single Abomination if it got a Dire Charge off. Oh, and it has 18-20/x7 as it's critical range.

It might give the akalich a run for it's money if the author actually remembers undead don't get morale bonuses.

The problem with the Akalich is that it can deal tons of damage to every party member with no save and you have to kill it 6 times (and destroy its phylactery) to ensure it's really dead.

Plus whatever spells it's packing.

[ShurikVch]

You know, between this, the Michelin Man, and Aubrey II over there I am beginning to think that the ideal adventuring party to face the Immortals Bestiary drives around in the Mystery Machine.You reminded me of this picture:https://i.ibb.co/JBsDSBT/Scooby-D-D.jpg

[Kalkra]

Isn't the example Akalich also called Nimrod, if I recall correctly? Just wanted to bring it up since it is one of the first of many bizarre biblical references, and as far as I recall the only subtle one. The others will be too blindingly obvious to overlook.

It's actually an adaptation of the biblical character. Y'know, Tower of Babel and all of that.

Also, most of the stuff isn't technically biblical, but rather Gnostic or Neoplatonic, I think. And just going out on a limb here, but I'd guess that if I were more knowledgeable about the topic, I'd find that the author took some significant liberties with the source material.

Also also, when I Googled "gibborim", it said that that's the plural, and that the singular is gibbor. If I got that with one Googling, the author should've gotten it to.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Akishra, CR 40


https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG
Image link. (https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG)


This monster is just odd. Their fluff is that originates from an original monster from the Immortal Handbook that we haven’t seen yet. Already off to a great start, I see.

It has no spells and no spell-like abilities, despite its statblock claiming it has the latter. Someone did EDIT this book, right? The Akishra Regeneration 25 which can be bypassed by epic lawful attacks.

As for its DR 25? It stops nonepic and natural attacks from sentient creatures or intelligent manufactured weapons. Yes stops. Presumably, they don’t bypass it?

But its statblock also claims it can be bypassed by lawful attacks by sentient Mindless beings. Again, where is the editor? I assume the this was intended to be how you bypass its DR.

The Akishra has a breath weapon (evasion says you don’t care), it can deal WIS drain (you should be immune) and its spine acts as a Symbol of Persuasion (again, you should be immune).

But by far the strangest ability it has is called Panversal. It gives it 8 attacks of opportunity per round and it can attack anyone within “teleport range.”

Teleport range? Teleport’s range is based on the user’s caster level! The book doesn’t say what this range is, but if its “caster level” for the effect is equal to its HD, then it can attack anyone within 5,100 miles.

But wait! The Akishra has a more powerful version of itself! The Akishra Hydra, which has 8 bodies and is CR 68! And it’s basically the same monster but with bigger numbers. Yawn! Oh wait, it can take 64 attacks of opportunity per round, but only 8 against a single character. 115,000-mile range, if you were curious.

Neither Akishra will threaten an epic party as far as I’m concerned. They’re just piles of HP with breath weapons. I think this might just be the most boring monster in the book so far.

[Aniikinis]

Oh gods, I forgot about this one, pun not intended. They also forgot to put Ghostly Glow in the statblocks of the Worm and the Hydra. Honestly I'm having a hard time figuring out the inspiration for this one, but I'm pretty sure I know what it might have been. The inspiration was probably the same as the one for SCP-3000, Ananteshesha the serpent at the end of everything but I'm having a hard time honestly believing it myself. If SCP-3000 wasn't created in 2017, I'd probably say that this ripped off that entry, but the book predates it by like 12 years.

Oh, right the creature. Completely worthless as an epic creature save the fact that you could possibly use a network of them to simulate warp gates by having them make an attack against somewhere and stepping off the head of it.

[Remuko]

Akishra, CR 40


https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG
Image link. (https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG)


This monster is just odd. Their fluff is that originates from an original monster from the Immortal Handbook that we haven’t seen yet. Already off to a great start, I see.

It has no spells and no spell-like abilities, despite its statblock claiming it has the latter. Someone did EDIT this book, right? The Akishra Regeneration 25 which can be bypassed by epic lawful attacks.

As for its DR 25? It stops nonepic and natural attacks from sentient creatures or intelligent manufactured weapons. Yes stops. Presumably, they don’t bypass it?

But its statblock also claims it can be bypassed by lawful attacks by sentient beings. Again, where is the editor? I assume the this was intended to be how you bypass its DR.

The Akishra has a breath weapon (evasion says you don’t care), it can deal WIS drain (you should be immune) and its spine acts as a Symbol of Persuasion (again, you should be immune).

But by far the strangest ability it has is called Panversal. It gives it 8 attacks of opportunity per round and it can attack anyone within “teleport range.”

Teleport range? Teleport’s range is based on the user’s caster level! The book doesn’t say what this range is, but if its “caster level” for the effect is equal to its HD, then it can attack anyone within 5,100 miles.

But wait! The Akishra has a more powerful version of itself! The Akishra Hydra, which has 8 bodies and is CR 68! And it’s basically the same monster but with bigger numbers. Yawn! Oh wait, it can take 64 attacks of opportunity per round, but only 8 against a single character. 115,000-mile range, if you were curious.

Neither Akishra will threaten an epic party as far as I’m concerned. They’re just piles of HP with breath weapons. I think this might just be the most boring monster in the book so far.

I wonder what SLA it was supposed to have were? Wonder if they could have made it any more interesting.

[Karl Aegis]

Think of an Elder Brain, but it spawns these things instead of larval flayers. I think the idea behind this one is they are Space corrupted by Thought or something.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Think of an Elder Brain, but it spawns these things instead of larval flayers.

I know what the monster that spawns the Astral Eels is, it's called a Cogent. I was just saying it's poor writing to introduce the monster that spawns from the Cogent first, rather than the other way around.

[danielxcutter]

I know what the monster that spawns the Astral Eels is, it's called a Cogent. I was just saying it's poor writing to introduce the monster that spawns from the Cogent first, rather than the other way around.

Weeeeeeeeell it's done in alphabetical order, but it wouldn't have hurt to put it under there, like, say, Mockery Drones and Mockery Monarchs.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Weeeeeeeeell it's done in alphabetical order, but it wouldn't have hurt to put it under there, like, say, Mockery Drones and Mockery Monarchs.

I agree, especially since we're talking about a monster that no one who hasn't read the Immortal Handbook before would recognize.

[Karl Aegis]

I agree, especially since we're talking about a monster that no one who hasn't read the Immortal Handbook before would recognize.

Wait, are you saying that after reading the rest of the book you understand what this thing is? Isn't that against the point of the book?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, are you saying that after reading the rest of the book you understand what this thing is? Isn't that against the point of the book?

More like the thing that spawns them is a later entry, so it WOULD have made more sense to add this at the end of that entry, but they didn't.

[Eldan]

I wonder what SLA it was supposed to have were? Wonder if they could have made it any more interesting.

Probably teleport, at least, maybe gate? Would make sense for the fluff.

[Aniikinis]

I wonder what SLA it was supposed to have were? Wonder if they could have made it any more interesting.


Probably teleport, at least, maybe gate? Would make sense for the fluff.

Seconding teleport. It probably also should have some sort of divination or enchantment SLAs. ...Actually it'd probably follow the pattern set before and have a bunch of seemingly random SLAs with a few that seem thematically appropriate.

[Eldan]

That reminds me... it has an enormous range on AoOs, but don't AoOs require line of sight? It would pretty much need either a few ten thousand points in spot or divinations.

[Eldan]

Akishra, CR 40


https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG
Image link. (https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001303im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Akishra1.JPG)



Wait, is that a giant errect phallus in the background?

[OgresAreCute]

Wait, is that a giant errect phallus in the background?

If you're asking seriously, I think it's supposed to be the underside of the upside down horned guy's foot.

If you're joking, yes, and it even has pearly penile papules.

[Eldan]

Of course I'm aware it's not intended to be one.. The similarity just immediately struck me when I saw the image again.

[Aniikinis]

If you're joking, yes, and it even has pearly penile papules.

I feel kinda sorry for the guy, the head is chipped and so in need of moisturiser that the skin is cracking. Also, that viperfish jaw probably won't be good for the *cough* health of it either.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Wait, is that a giant errect phallus in the background?

:eek:

I, did not notice that before. :smalltongue:

[Karl Aegis]

It's an odium passing by.

Edit: Oh it's some deceased deity's foot okay.

[Blue Jay]

I think they're all posing in front of their surfboards, which happen to all be portals into other bizarro worlds.

[Lleban]

I can't un see it now, also this thread is a great idea.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Amidah, CR Varies


Image link. (https://i.somethingawful.com/u/elpintogrande/epicbestiary/07.gif)

https://i.somethingawful.com/u/elpintogrande/epicbestiary/07.gif


This is a template, a paragon of paragons. The template can be applied to gods as well as paragon creatures and it gives out… a lot of benefits, actually.

Wish at will as an SLA. Do I need to go on at this point? Amidah also get a +60-luck bonus to AC, attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, initiative and spell/SLA DCs. Their enemies suffer a -12-luck penalty to just about all those things too, plus damage rolls.

+75 to all ability scores, Fast Healing 100, DR 150/epic and cursed (yes, cursed) change all hit dice to d100s and it gets max HP per hit dice. +80 to its CR. Obviously how tough it is going to depend on what you apply the template to, but Wish at will is pretty insane.

The sample monster is a CR 163 (?!) paragon vampire with 6 (yes, 6) artifact swords. I think this is the highest CR monster we’ve seen yet in this book. He has 11,700 HP and SR 187!

I… honestly don’t know what a level 160+ party would look like, but I suspect that short of abusing that Wish SLA, they’d stomp this vampire flat. I think?

[Karl Aegis]

You use Combine Turning from Ghostwalk Web Enhancement and Disciple of the Sun from Complete Divine and hope you can get past his Evil Eye and Luck abilities. Done.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Hey guys I think we found Goku. Brb imma make a level 500 amidah monk

[ExLibrisMortis]

So basically, an amidah goblin commoner 1 is CR 79 or so, with about 137 hit points, +97 or +98 to pretty much any check (AC 107 or 108, skills +101 or +102), and at-will wish. It is, in fact, capable of disposing of a hecatoncheires (by using wish, of course--the hecatoncheires can only save on a 20, and the goblin will always go first), and it's virtually immune to its attacks (the hecatoncheires can only hit on a 20, and then can't overcome the goblin's DR).

Apart from the hit points, it's probably not far off the benchmarks for its CR. I'm sure that's an accident.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Apart from the hit points, it's probably not far off the benchmarks for its CR. I'm sure that's an accident.

Most likely, but I doubt it'd beat a level 75 party.

[danielxcutter]

So basically, an amidah goblin commoner 1 is CR 79 or so, with about 137 hit points, +97 or +98 to pretty much any check (AC 107 or 108, skills +101 or +102), and at-will wish. It is, in fact, capable of disposing of a hecatoncheires (by using wish, of course--the hecatoncheires can only save on a 20, and the goblin will always go first), and it's virtually immune to its attacks (the hecatoncheires can only hit on a 20, and then can't overcome the goblin's DR).

Apart from the hit points, it's probably not far off the benchmarks for its CR. I'm sure that's an accident.

Well, compared to the trainwrecks in the ELH and this book, it's probably a lot better than those.

Speaking of which, how well does the Paragon template fare? Once saw a campaign journal with a Paragon Jovoc as part of the guards of a MacGuffin which a near-epic, highly optimized party had to retrieve. A party with a DMM: Persistent cleric, a Pact Adept with custom dragonpacts, a Ranger/Deepwood Sniper who's favored enemies are the main focus of the campaign, and not one but two Frenzied Berserkers, as a matter of fact.

Apparently, most of them ended the fight with single-digit hit points.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Speaking of which, how well does the Paragon template fare?

Not so well on low level monsters. They end up being glass cannons with extra glass.

[danielxcutter]

Not so well on low level monsters. They end up being glass cannons with extra glass.

Depends on the monster; the Paragon Jovoc I just mentioned was apparently quite frightening.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Depends on the monster; the Paragon Jovoc I just mentioned was apparently quite frightening.

It should be CR 20. I can't see it posing any threat to a level 20 party. Or a level 17 one for that matter.

What level were the PCs who battled it?

EDIT: Paragon is a +15 to CR, BTW.

[danielxcutter]

It should be CR 20. I can't see it posing any threat to a level 20 party. Or a level 17 one for that matter.

What level were the PCs who battled it?

EDIT: Paragon is a +15 to CR, BTW.

About 17~18th-level, I think. There were also two Immolation Demons and a Nemesis Demon(ported from Pathfinder) as well. Aura of Retribution is very scary when the Jovoc can survive taking 100 points of axe damage to the face and not die, you see.

[Lleban]

Ya know normally I'd say its a shame that at will wish overshadows any other feature this class has...but its just overshadowing numbers bloat. What kind of abilities should a paragon of paragon template give though.

[danielxcutter]

Ya know normally I'd say its a shame that at will wish overshadows any other feature this class has...but its just overshadowing numbers bloat. What kind of abilities should a paragon of paragon template give though.

I don't know, but generalized, powerful enhancements do seem like the right direction, since it's not a specific boost for just one archetype.

[martixy]

This thread makes me wanna design a better epic handbook.

One that isn't just all numbers. Don't get me wrong, numbers are important too, but at that point bags-of-HP are about the most boring imaginable. Which the immortals handbook is overflowing with. It's lazy.

These things should start acting like the natural disasters and eldritch horrors they ought to be.

On that point, I'm particularly interested what this thread would have to say about the Nexus Dragon.

[danielxcutter]

This thread makes me wanna design a better epic handbook.

One that isn't just all numbers. Don't get me wrong, numbers are important too, but at that point bags-of-HP are about the most boring imaginable. Which the immortals handbook is overflowing with. It's lazy.

These things should start acting like the natural disasters and eldritch horrors they ought to be.

On that point, I'm particularly interested what this thread would have to say about the Nexus Dragon.

To be fair, when non-epic monsters or even players can cause natural disasters fairly easily, it's hard to expand on that much without rehashing stuff.

Still, I wish the average had been closer to the Odium, at least in design and coolness if not power.

[unseenmage]

I remember wah back in my newbie days I'd made a tribe of goblins who were made from force effects. Literally just took the physical traits of a wall of force and slapped them on the goblin stat block. Could even make game attacks through them.

Players wound up burying the little buggers one by one since they weren't high enough level to actually destroy them.

I recall it as an example of an 'overpowered' template just not mattering on a weak monster.

Now the Kaiju template from Dragin Magazine, THAT we had done epic fun with.

[martixy]

To be fair, when non-epic monsters or even players can cause natural disasters fairly easily, it's hard to expand on that much without rehashing stuff.

Still, I wish the average had been closer to the Odium, at least in design and coolness if not power.

When I say natural disaster, I mean so in the context of a magical universe. Events that span planets, planes, dimensions and pantheons, not a volcanic eruption.

[danielxcutter]

When I say natural disaster, I mean so in the context of a magical universe. Events that span planets, planes, dimensions and pantheons, not a volcanic eruption.

Hmm. Okay, fair. Still, you can get that with monsters on the relatively low end of Epic - the Elder Evils come to mind, for one.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Now the Kaiju template from Dragin Magazine, THAT we had done epic fun with.

I had a player harass a seal in our D&D game.

So I made a Winged Kaiju seal and had it declare vengeance on him. :smallbiggrin:

It never went anywhere, but it was kind of funny.

[danielxcutter]

I had a player harass a seal in our D&D game.

So I made a Winged Kaiju seal and had it declare vengeance on him. :smallbiggrin:

It never went anywhere, but it was kind of funny.

What issue number is that?

[Lapak]

Don't get me wrong, numbers are important too,
Honestly, I don't agree. Epic level PC parties can deliver arbitrarily high numbers in any given category, so numbers are never going to be an interesting challenge.

I agree with the rest of your post a lot and think the threat they pose should be broader and more existential than 'can drop a dice bag's worth of damage on a PC,' but tied to that I think the only road to making them feel different and epic is to make them essentially puzzle encounters. Don't give me an Uber-lich with a billion hit points and five lives. Give me one who can only be harmed by a grandmother who has never known sorrow and let the party work out how to find one, arm her, and recruit her without disqualifying her in the process.

Give me an avatar of conflict who can only be defeated if every sapient being within 100 miles forgives their worst enemy.

Give me a forge-god wielding Swordbreaker who makes every war around him escalate to increase the power of his worshippers and let them figure out that he can only be attacked by someone who is unarmed.

[Quarian Rex]

This exercise begs the question; What DO we want in an epic monster?

Kaiju are supposed to be punching bags so far as their lore is concerned.
Do we want every epic challenge to be wizard Godzilla?

Is Galactus a threat purely due to his size?

Perhaps late season Stargate style Replicators on occasion.

What exactly constitutes an epic threat, let alone an epic monster?

This is actually a pretty good question. I think the main obstacle I've had with a lot of the Epic type rules/ideas I've seen is that they usually just pile on the numbers without doing anything remotely interesting. Also, 'epic' monsters are best used in a non-epic campaign (from a narrative point of view). Battling Cthulhu loses a lot when the PCs are now technically his peers.

Aniikinis posted a thread about adapting The Eldrazi Titans (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538962-The-Eldrazi-Titans-(because-planeshift-Zendikar-was-too-dismissive)) a while back that was interesting but suffered (from my perspective) from some of the meaninglessly large bag of numbers issues that can be seen in Epic content.

Thre post I made in that thread, here...

I hear ya, and that's why no one plays epic. It's a game of rocket tag and the only players are those who have epic spellcasting. It becomes yet another game of arbitrary number stacking.

I would ask you to consider re-balancing this for something that can be used in a normal campaign. That is not to say that it can't be epicly ridiculous, just that it shouldn't be hand-wavingly impossible. Here are some thoughts because criticism needs to be constructive...

- Currently your Eldrazi is too small. Look at those pictures, 30' by 30' doesn't do it justice. Create a new size category (Colossal+ to keep it simple) where you can put an arbitrary spacing (within mild reason, like 100' by 100' or somesuch). Having a monster take up the majority of one side of the battlemap (without fully being on the board) is a great way to let the players know that they are in the sh*t.

- Set up facings so that only 1/4 of its total attacks can be used within a cone facing outward from a given side and reduce the total number of attacks to 40-60 (10-15 attacks per side) so the DM doesn't have to give up on rolling attacks and declare the PCs dead because he's tired.

- Add a hp multiplier to the Eldrazi subtype so that you can get to an appropriate HP total without requiring an unusable number of HD. Try keeping the HD around the 25 mark to prevent things from scaling to stupidly.

- To make up for the reduced number of attacks have all melee attacks affect a 5' AoE (check the to-hit once against everyone in the area) and do double damage to unattended objects. This way when attacking cities/crowds the carnage is exactly as devastating as you think it should be but delta force/adventuring parties don't have to die in one swipe (unless they're caught in a group hug).

- Lower the to-hit against small things. I'm talking something like -5 per size category starting at Colossal. Tweak it till it has about a +5 to 10 to hit medium characters. Commoners will mostly be wiped out in one hit (though some kids might be able to survive to become a plot hook), armored soldiers might have a 50% chance of not being squashed on the first hit and a fully decked out knight might be able to take a couple swipes. With 10 to 15 AoE hits coming down a round this has the effect you want without just saying 'the army's dead'. "What?!?", I hear you say, "That's insane, how is my eldritch horror supposed to show these pesky adventurers that they are nothing if he can't hit them?". That's because these attacks are just the Eldrazi swatting insects out of the way. When something draws its interest then...

- For every extra attack used on the same target you negate a size penalty (so 2 tentacles = +5 to hit, 3 tentacles = +10, etc.) but the attack only does one hit of damage (which for this guy is still going to be nuts). This lets hard targets (like the players) act as tanks (something that doesn't usually work very well in 3.P) because every extra tentacle used on them is an attack that isn't being used on someone else.

- The massive threatened area (120' or more) needs to be addressed. AoO are something to multiply the number of attacks in an area (justifying the lowered number of attacks) but would still follow the previous convention where multiple AoOs can be expended for a higher hit bonus. A lot of the combat is going to be happening away from the Eldrazi but it still needs to be engaging. Say that the tentacles can be attacked for one round after they make an attack as if they occupied the squares of their AoE. Each tentacle has 1/4 (or something like that, adjust to taste) of the Eldrazi's hp and half of all damage done to the tentacle is done to the main body as well. As tentacles are destroyed the Eldrazi can spend a full round action to change its facing, bringing a new set of tentacles to bear while simultaneously giving the party a small, well earned, breather. Fast healing (something you left out) would be applied to the body and tentacles separately so this is still no joke.

- For something like Eldritch Moon, draw those effects out. This is the sort of thing that can turn a campaign into a supernatural disaster movie instead of a hand-wave that says that the entire country has been annihilated before you can finish watching Lord of the Rings. If you're dealing with a radius of 350 miles then you can afford to start off "subtle". Say that it starts with a DC 5 made once per day. Not really a threat to the average adventurer but you will lose about 20% of the commoner population per day. That is an apocalypse that needs to be dealt with. For every 150 miles you are closer to the Eldrazi the DC goes up by 5 to a max of DC 15. Within 50 miles the save has to be made every hour. Escalating threat and coupled with a lowered movement rate of 20 (120 means this puppy can travel 96 miles a day, which is too damn much for an approaching apocalypse). MV 20 allows humans to outrun it so long as they're unburdened or don't hit difficult terrain.

- Stat up an actual template for the victims of Eldritch Moon (increasing the HD and such) and have them make Will saves (DC 15 or 20) every day or be forced to move to Emrakul at full speed, attacking anything in the way. Once within Emrakul's threatened range they must make another will save every round or be permanently dominated by the Eldrazi. Remove Dominate Monster from the normal spell-likes.


Those are some thoughts on how to turn this from an auto-death encounter (or worse, something that can be "easily defeated through an epic-level banish spell or through the use of an instant death effect") into a herald of its own apocalypse and changer of the setting while still leaving the potential of having a setting afterward.

Thoughts?
... basically sums up a lot of what I'm generally looking for in an 'epic' threat. Something that has a far reaching effect that cannot be ignored. Something with the action economy to deal with a party (preferably in a way that actually makes sense). Something with somewhat of a scaling threat (again, in a way that makes sense) so that it's presence doesn't just auto-destroy any nation it lands in.

I've been tinkering with a version of Emrakul adjusted along my suggestions but haven't completed it yet, mainly because I don't currently have a campaign that it would be useful in. I kinda wish Aniikinis had gotten around to that redesign.

[Aniikinis]

*Reminders of an ancient thread with good advice for this handbook*

Oh gods, I completely forgot about that thread. If I'd remembered about that, I'd have them all statted out by now if I wasn't working on a campaign, a few characters, and working too much. I think I still have my notes somewhere too.

But yeah, I second everything he said and this book would be so much better if they'd stuck with the source material closely and focused on cool factor over most other things.

[danielxcutter]

I'd say the people who wrote Elder Evils did a slightly better job at making world-shaking walking apocalypses, with stuff like the Signs and whatnot.

Slightly.

[ShurikVch]

What issue number is that?Dragon #289



Think of an Elder Brain, but it spawns these things instead of larval flayers. I think the idea behind this one is they are Space corrupted by Thought or something.

I know what the monster that spawns the Astral Eels is, it's called a Cogent. I was just saying it's poor writing to introduce the monster that spawns from the Cogent first, rather than the other way around.There it is:
https://image.ibb.co/e3PqvV/Cogent1.jpg

(It reminded me about the "BRAINS! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brains!_(Voltaire_song))")


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjjrSfwknw

[martixy]

Honestly, I don't agree. Epic level PC parties can deliver arbitrarily high numbers in any given category, so numbers are never going to be an interesting challenge.

I agree with the rest of your post a lot and think the threat they pose should be broader and more existential than 'can drop a dice bag's worth of damage on a PC,' but tied to that I think the only road to making them feel different and epic is to make them essentially puzzle encounters. Don't give me an Uber-lich with a billion hit points and five lives. Give me one who can only be harmed by a grandmother who has never known sorrow and let the party work out how to find one, arm her, and recruit her without disqualifying her in the process.

Give me an avatar of conflict who can only be defeated if every sapient being within 100 miles forgives their worst enemy.

Give me a forge-god wielding Swordbreaker who makes every war around him escalate to increase the power of his worshippers and let them figure out that he can only be attacked by someone who is unarmed.

1. You may not agree, but not everyone won't. Large numbers can be an integral part of the power fantasy some players seek. The fact that you can reach arbitrarily high numbers doesn't mean that you should. And while the system is broken because of this, one can agree to NOT break it enough to allow that power fantasy to exist.
2. While you have the right idea - honestly I was gonna say the same thing - epic encounters should turn into what are essentially puzzles, the examples you offered sound just as boring - or worse, obnoxious - than the bags-of-hp of old.
But we can borrow a lot from video games here. Concepts like multi-stage boss-battles, environmental effects, objective-based fights, larger-than-life scales, time pressure, etc.

For example, the lich-with-5-lives isn't that terrible an idea. It's the perfect setup for a multi-stage battle. If you don't fall into the obvious trap of multi-stage battles - just having 5 bars of HP. You make each stage unique - perhaps he has different powers in each stage. And maybe you know of a couple of his phylacteries and can take out one or two, but have to decide what kind of powers(i.e. which stages) you want to face, and none of your choices are good.

Maybe in one of the stages he's a crazy-powerful dracolich, and in another he's not just one creature, but an entire army of undead monstrosities, and you can't disable both before he catches up to you, but can choose which one not to face.
It's a mechanic that gives players additional agency, creates an engaging objective-based race, makes for a compelling baddie.

This is just one example, there's a ton more game design techniques one can employ to make things interesting, you just have to be willing to put some thought into it.

[Lapak]

1. You may not agree, but not everyone won't. Large numbers can be an integral part of the power fantasy some players seek. The fact that you can reach arbitrarily high numbers doesn't mean that you should. And while the system is broken because of this, one can agree to NOT break it enough to allow that power fantasy to exist.That's an entirely reasonable take! I certainly don't think mine is the One True Fun, I was just putting my thoughts forward in response to yours.

2. While you have the right idea - honestly I was gonna say the same thing - epic encounters should turn into what are essentially puzzles, the examples you offered sound just as boring - or worse, obnoxious - than the bags-of-hp of old.That's more than fair; when I'm assembling ideas in motion most of them are going to be either borrowed or terrible (or both.) But I think we're in the same place on the overall approach.

[Karl Aegis]

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/gibborim-web.jpg

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Anakim-web.jpg

[noob]

Give me an avatar of conflict who can only be defeated if every sapient being within 100 miles forgives their worst enemy.
easily defeated: kill all the sapient in the area so hard they stop being sapient.(and also make the avatar stop being sapient or else it counts in the limit)

[Theoboldi]

Since we are on that topic, I will say that it has always been a pet peeve of mine that in many old-school d&d modules (looking at you, Basic D&D immortals) and D&D-inspired media (looking at you, Lone Wolf) there is something of a gameplay shift at high levels.

By which I mean to say that it becomes increasingly difficult to gain permanent victory against enemies you face, and that fighting them off becomes increasingly unfeasable in favor of having to solve puzzles to get rid of them. I can't quite articulate why it bothers me so, though if I tried I would say that it feels somewhat antithetic to the general concept of your character growing stronger as he levels.

It's odd. I'm not exactly opposed to the idea of PCs having to fight smart and utilizing their high level abilies to change overwhelming odds, but the way its done usually is very annoying to me. :smallconfused:


On a more relevant note, I think that the sample Amidah's swords deserve a special look. They are a trove of silly madness of their own.

[ColorBlindNinja]

On a more relevant note, I think that the sample Amidah's swords deserve a special look. They are a trove of silly madness of their own.

I might make a bonus post detailing them later.

But for now...




Cherubim, CR 126

(Once again, no picture. It looks like a lion with 6 wings.)

And now we’re getting into the angels in this book. I won’t dwell too long on how they’re organized, but I have to say that the fact that the book has a singular “supreme being” at the top of the hierarchy really clashes with the generally polytheistic D&D pantheon.

With that out of the way, let’s take a look at the first angel in this book, the Cherubim. Apparently, these things once guarded Eden, AKA the upper planes known as Atziluth. Since this is one of the Immortal Handbook’s bizarre cosmological addons, I simply don’t care.

This beast has 345,048 HP, saving throw bonuses in the low hundreds, DR 65 perfect, Regeneration (bypassed by evil artifacts or evil epic spells) and SR 167.

The Cherubim has Shapechange at will as an SLA (caster level 157th!) as well as Astral Projection. Furthermore, it can only be permanently killed by a being of “higher status” than themselves (more divine ranks?) or they just come back to life in 1d10 minutes.

They also enjoy immunity to all non-epic magic and all spells from every school but Evocation, Divination and Universal spells. Again, unless you’re of “higher status” than they are.

And they can nuke everyone within 240 feet of them for 66d100 damage which repeats every round. It offers a reflex save, though, so who cares?

Did I mention they cast as 66th level Clerics with a caster level of 157 and they have 13 epic spells per day? To top it all off, they get an artifact that auto reflects the first two spells cast on it (epic or otherwise).

I know most D&D groups don’t fight angels, but this is a serious case of overkill. I honestly don’t know how you’re intended to kill this thing. Then again, I don’t know what a level 120+ party would look like either so… Let’s move on.

[Karl Aegis]

"A being of higher status" is that thing on the cover. Apparently, Angels can be evil, too. So go ahead and kill the cherubim that are both black and female lions with six wings and a double crown. Also: it looks like if these guys advance enough hit dice they become a different creature. Again, that creature is that guy on the cover.


http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/IH_EpicBestiary_Vol1_NewCover(20%25).jpg

Look at him, he's cute! But, the evil version is the Balseraph, not just double minority lion wearing a double crown.... Sounds like a One Punch Man villain.

[tyckspoon]

I know most D&D groups don’t fight angels, but this is a serious case of overkill. I honestly don’t know how you’re intended to kill this thing. Then again, I don’t know what a level 120+ party would look like either so… Let’s move on.

I suspect at that point the writer expects the party to be some variety of deific beings themselves; IIRC the Immortal Handbook is supposed to be used alongside other material that presents new rules and a new concept of how really really high levels should work, which means we're missing a lot of context about the kinds of PCs that are meant to contend with these sorts of enemies. Won't guarantee they make any more sense *with* those rules, tho.

[noob]

I might make a bonus post detailing them later.

But for now...




Cherubim, CR 126

(Once again, no picture. It looks like a lion with 6 wings.)

And now we’re getting into the angels in this book. I won’t dwell too long on how they’re organized, but I have to say that the fact that the book has a singular “supreme being” at the top of the hierarchy really clashes with the generally polytheistic D&D pantheon.

With that out of the way, let’s take a look at the first angel in this book, the Cherubim. Apparently, these things once guarded Eden, AKA the upper planes known as Atziluth. Since this is one of the Immortal Handbook’s bizarre cosmological addons, I simply don’t care.

This beast has 345,048 HP, saving throw bonuses in the low hundreds, DR 65 perfect, Regeneration (bypassed by evil artifacts or evil epic spells) and SR 167.

The Cherubim has Shapechange at will as an SLA (caster level 157th!) as well as Astral Projection. Furthermore, it can only be permanently killed by a being of “higher status” than themselves (more divine ranks?) or they just come back to life in 1d10 minutes.

They also enjoy immunity to all non-epic magic and all spells from every school but Evocation, Divination and Universal spells. Again, unless you’re of “higher status” than they are.

And they can nuke everyone within 240 feet of them for 66d100 damage which repeats every round. It offers a reflex save, though, so who cares?

Did I mention they cast as 66th level Clerics with a caster level of 157 and they have 13 epic spells per day? To top it all off, they get an artifact that auto reflects the first two spells cast on it (epic or otherwise).

I know most D&D groups don’t fight angels, but this is a serious case of overkill. I honestly don’t know how you’re intended to kill this thing. Then again, I don’t know what a level 120+ party would look like either so… Let’s move on.
I think it is countered by inflicting so much damage(converted to non lethal) it needs 324243434565434234345464574352 years to come back to consciousness.
Which is done by having more contingent spells than it and thus playing first and thus having all the time you want to make it drop its defenses.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I suspect at that point the writer expects the party to be some variety of deific beings themselves; IIRC the Immortal Handbook is supposed to be used alongside other material that presents new rules and a new concept of how really really high levels should work, which means we're missing a lot of context about the kinds of PCs that are meant to contend with these sorts of enemies. Won't guarantee they make any more sense *with* those rules, tho.

True enough. I may have to review that book next. :smalltongue:


I think it is countered by inflicting so much damage(converted to non lethal) it needs 324243434565434234345464574352 years to come back to consciousness.
Which is done by having more contingent spells than it and thus playing first and thus having all the time you want to make it drop its defenses.

I forgot to mention it's got Miracle at will, so it could just use that to emulate Favor of the Martyr and become immune to nonlethal damage.

[noob]

True enough. I may have to review that book next. :smalltongue:



I forgot to mention it's got Miracle at will, so it could just use that to emulate Favor of the Martyr and become immune to nonlethal damage.

which is why I mentioned dropping the defenses first.
a bunch of disjunctions would work since spells are not protected by magic immunity.

[ColorBlindNinja]

which is why I mentioned dropping the defenses first.
a bunch of disjunctions would work since spells are not protected by magic immunity.

Disjunction would not work because it's magic immunity would block it.

EDIT: It's immune to Abjuration spells, therefore it cannot be affected by them. Dispelling its buffs counts as being affected.

[noob]

Disjunction would not work because it's magic immunity would block it.

EDIT: It's immune to Abjuration spells, therefore it cannot be affected by them. Dispelling its buffs counts as being affected.
If you start screwing with the definition of being affected the angel get iron heart surged away.
No it is not affected by losing its boost spells or else the angel would automatically protect all the good people from all the offensive spells because it is sad when a good person dies and so it is affected by offensive spells cast on good people.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you start screwing with the definition of being affected the angel get iron heart surged away.

So what's the duration on the angel?

[noob]

So what's the duration on the angel?
As many rounds as it lives until being iron heart surged away.
Or you can use truename dispell to remove the concept of magic immunity.
Vampire can iron heart surge away their sunlight vulnerability for one round (it is indicated in the errata) so it does not needs a clearly expressed round duration for being iron heart surge-able.
So first you iron heart surge away the limitations iron heart surging then you iron heart surge the angel.

[ColorBlindNinja]

As many rounds as it lives until being iron heart surged away.

No, it needs to have duration. It doesn't have one.


Or you can use truename dispell to remove the concept of magic immunity.

A spell, which it's immune to. And it's immunity appears to be EX.



Vampire can iron heart surge away their sunlight vulnerability for one round (it is indicated in the errata) so it does not needs a clearly expressed round duration.

I found nothing of the sort in the Errata.

Can you provide a link?

[noob]

No, it needs to have duration. It doesn't have one.



A spell, which it's immune to. And it's immunity appears to be EX.




I found nothing of the sort in the Errata.

Can you provide a link?

Well where is the tome of battle errata and did it errata iron heart surge?
as for truename dispell being a spell you are still not casting it on yourself nor on the angel: you cast it on a chicken and use it to rewrite all the rules of the universe since it ends effects.

Again the more widely you interpret effect the worse the game breaks down.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well where is the tome of battle errata

It should be here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)


and did it errata iron heart surge?

Not according to my copy.



as for truename dispell being a spell you are still not casting it on yourself nor on the angel: you cast it on a chicken and use it to rewrite all the rules of the universe since it ends effects.

It only works on spells, the angel's immunity is not a spell.

EDIT: It only works on one spell at a time and that chicken won't last long.

[noob]

It should be here. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/errata)



Not according to my copy.




It only works on spells, the angel's immunity is not a spell.

due to odd formulation it does not works only on spells: it works against any effect.


By speaking aloud the personal truename of your foe and pointing with arm outstretched, you cause a gray haze to swirl around your target briefly.
Then the haze dissipates, carrying your enemy's magic with it.
This spell enables you to see the strands of magic surrounding your target and selectively separate them.
This functions like the dispel magic spell, except that it always targets a creature, you learn the nature of each ongoing magical effect currently affecting the target creature, and effects you want to dispel are automatically removed (no caster level check is necessary), if you succeed on the Truespeak check, you can choose which effects you want to dispel.
Thus, you can eliminate harmful effects while retaining beneficial ones—or vice versa.
Read: it says AND effects you want to dispel are automatically removed.
something does not needs to be dispellable for me to want to dispel it and it removes what I want to dispel.
so if alcohol was effecting me and that I wanted to dispel it then it would be removed even If I did cast truename dispel on a goat.
So it makes me know the magical effect on the creature AND it does the effect of removing all the effects I want to dispel but nowhere does it says the effects have to be a subset of the detected effects.

It is a well known quirk of truename dispel.

[Quarian Rex]

I agree with the rest of your post a lot and think the threat they pose should be broader and more existential than 'can drop a dice bag's worth of damage on a PC,' but tied to that I think the only road to making them feel different and epic is to make them essentially puzzle encounters. Don't give me an Uber-lich with a billion hit points and five lives. Give me one who can only be harmed by a grandmother who has never known sorrow and let the party work out how to find one, arm her, and recruit her without disqualifying her in the process.

Give me an avatar of conflict who can only be defeated if every sapient being within 100 miles forgives their worst enemy.

Give me a forge-god wielding Swordbreaker who makes every war around him escalate to increase the power of his worshippers and let them figure out that he can only be attacked by someone who is unarmed.


I get the sentiment but most ideas like this wind up being pure cancer for the campaign. Weaponizing a grandmother who has never known sorrow comes down to a session(s) of mother-may-I with the DM (there are virtually no mechanics in the game that would let you find such a thing so you will only find her when the DM gets bored and decides to progress the campaign) to let the final encounter be handled by an NPC. I can't imagine anything more unsatisfying.

Having every sapient being within 100 miles forgive their worst enemy? Sounds like the actual puzzle is how to murder every sapient being within 100 miles to de-power an Avatar. And this, like the idea above, would probably only happen after an initial encounter with a creature who is completely unbeatable solely due to DM fiat, possibly resulting in an near TPK. The idea of having to amateur Dr. Phil every disgruntled butcher or century long blood-feud (Hatfield/McCoy) would be excruciating. The idea that true forgiveness could be found from a single conversation or through threat would show such a supreme lack of understanding of basic human nature that it would just take me completely out of the game. People don't show up to play heroic fantasy to get their teeth kicked in without any hope of defense and then be forced to roleplay daytime talk tv.

The forge-god wielding Swordbreaker who can only be attacked by someone who is unarmed is actually a good idea, conditional immunity penetrated by something in-obvious but easily at hand. Whether or not this actually works depends solely on whether the PCs are actually given a heads-up, like the god or nearby followers talking up a storm about how the forge-god can never be defeated because all weapons are His gifts, etc.



But we can borrow a lot from video games here. Concepts like multi-stage boss-battles, environmental effects, objective-based fights, larger-than-life scales, time pressure, etc.

For example, the lich-with-5-lives isn't that terrible an idea. It's the perfect setup for a multi-stage battle. If you don't fall into the obvious trap of multi-stage battles - just having 5 bars of HP. You make each stage unique - perhaps he has different powers in each stage. And maybe you know of a couple of his phylacteries and can take out one or two, but have to decide what kind of powers(i.e. which stages) you want to face, and none of your choices are good.

Maybe in one of the stages he's a crazy-powerful dracolich, and in another he's not just one creature, but an entire army of undead monstrosities, and you can't disable both before he catches up to you, but can choose which one not to face.
It's a mechanic that gives players additional agency, creates an engaging objective-based race, makes for a compelling baddie.

This is just one example, there's a ton more game design techniques one can employ to make things interesting, you just have to be willing to put some thought into it.

This sort of thing is way better. Interesting and potent, yet still rewarding player preparation and planning, and giving the players some choice and agency. That their choice is merely to choose the flavor of their poison is fine, it is a meaningful choice nonetheless.

I think that the biggest factor in this kind of thing is to make an interesting encounter for both the DM and the players. An encounter that completely trivializes/negates all player abilities until the party has retrieved a MacGuffin is the opposite of both.

I'm not trying to be overly critical of Lapak (or anyone else, I am quite aware that the examples were thrown out on the spot and such) but I do think that suggestions like this should be explored a bit to see why they may or may not work. Some of these things may actually work in a more narrative form (like a book) but are almost impossible in an actual game (the players don't have the level of world knowledge of their characters so intuitive leaps by book protagonists would have to be spoon-fed info from the DM, something far less satisfying, and even then the players may demand an explanation for bits that make little/no sense).

[ColorBlindNinja]

due to odd formulation it does not works only on spells: it works against any effect.

Read: it says AND effects you want to dispel are automatically removed.
something does not needs to be dispellable for me to want to dispel it and it removes what I want to dispel.
so if alcohol was effecting me and that I wanted to dispel it then it would be removed even If I did cast truename dispel on a goat.
So it makes me know the magical effect on the creature AND it does the effect of removing all the effects I want to dispel but nowhere does it says the effects have to be a subset of the detected effects.

It is a well known quirk of truename dispel.

It won't work because Truename Dispel is a spell. Which the angel is immune to.

EDIT: You have to target the angel to get it to work. Perhaps you've confused Truename Dispel with Spell Rebirth?

EDIT: 2 Or are you trying to claim that the Angel's magic immunity is "affecting" the chicken?

[Lapak]

It won't work because Truename Dispel is a spell. Which the angel is immune to.

EDIT: You have to target the angel to get it to work. Perhaps you've confused Truename Dispel with Spell Rebirth?

EDIT: 2 Or are you trying to claim that the Angel's magic immunity is "affecting" the chicken?
Neither. He is claiming the spell is so loosely written that the effects you end don't have to be effects that have anything to do with the targets. It's an even more generous reading than people who think you can put out the sun with IHS.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Neither. He is claiming the spell is so loosely written that the effects you end don't have to be effects that have anything to do with the targets. It's an even more generous reading than people who think you can put out the sun with IHS.

Agreed, and I don't think the spell works like that.

[Lleban]

Don't....don't tell me the angels get worse than this.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Don't....don't tell me the angels get worse than this.

Okay, I won't. :smallwink:

[Karl Aegis]

Technically, if we're using the rules from Ascension, there should be two MacGuffins in the entire universe able to destroy a cherubim permanently without resorting to smacking it with a balseraph.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Technically, if we're using the rules from Ascension, there should be two MacGuffins in the entire universe able to destroy a cherubim permanently without resorting to smacking it with a balseraph.

Which basically means if the DM doesn't give you one, you're screwed.

[Lleban]

So...what niche does this thing fill exactly, its not a god, nor it it a kaiju to beat down. Is this supposed to be a BBEG cuz i can't think of any narrative role it could fill with such DM specific win conditions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So...what niche does this thing fill exactly, its not a god, nor it it a kaiju to beat down. Is this supposed to be a BBEG cuz i can't think of any narrative role it could fill with such DM specific win conditions.

I believe it technically has divine ranks.

I honestly have no idea what role it's supposed to play in campaign other than "wise NPC man."

[unseenmage]

I believe it technically has divine ranks.

I honestly have no idea what role it's supposed to play in campaign other than "wise NPC man."

Is it a creature or a unique NPC?
Because fighting a troop of these sounds awful.

[Karl Aegis]

Which basically means if the DM doesn't give you one, you're screwed.

You've probably got at least 16 wishes per day and greater teleport for every party member at this point. There's a good chance you can find at least one MacGuffin given enough time. If not, just cast an epic spell in the minute it's dead to seal it away forever.

[tyckspoon]

I believe it technically has divine ranks.

I honestly have no idea what role it's supposed to play in campaign other than "wise NPC man."

There's probably some particular role these are meant to play within the weird extra cosmology that was mentioned, but I'm guessing it's just an outsized version of a Solar or other angel in pre-epic play - the servant/messenger/guardian/etc of a greater power. If the PCs are potentially in conflict with one they may need to try to talk their way past it, offer a service or trade for something it/its master desires, or just do a smash-and-grab; sure, they might not be able to destroy it forever, but they can kick it out of the way long enough to grab an artifact or something from the place it was set to guard.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is it a creature or a unique NPC?
Because fighting a troop of these sounds awful.

It sounds like they're 24 of them total.


You've probably got at least 16 wishes per day and greater teleport for every party member at this point. There's a good chance you can find at least one MacGuffin given enough time.

Fair enough.


If not, just cast an epic spell in the minute it's dead to seal it away forever.

I don't think you can do that with epic spellcasting. Unless you use custom seeds.

[Lleban]

This could be good....if it had a solid theme and a perhaps more easily comprehensible narrative niche, but I'm curious to see the rest of the angels here.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, it's nigh-impossible to make such high-Epic monsters, not just simply because the power scale goes up drastically but because more or less nobody has enough experience to even imagine what it'd be like there. Lowish-Epic is rare but still a thing, and aside from drastic Epic Spellcasting abuse it's largely non-Epic with bigger numbers - close enough to have a rough guess, at least. These are too high-CRed for even that.

[Aniikinis]

I might make a bonus post detailing them later.

But for now...




Cherubim, CR 126

(Once again, no picture. It looks like a lion with 6 wings.)

And now we’re getting into the angels in this book. I won’t dwell too long on how they’re organized, but I have to say that the fact that the book has a singular “supreme being” at the top of the hierarchy really clashes with the generally polytheistic D&D pantheon.

With that out of the way, let’s take a look at the first angel in this book, the Cherubim. Apparently, these things once guarded Eden, AKA the upper planes known as Atziluth. Since this is one of the Immortal Handbook’s bizarre cosmological addons, I simply don’t care.

This beast has 345,048 HP, saving throw bonuses in the low hundreds, DR 65 perfect, Regeneration (bypassed by evil artifacts or evil epic spells) and SR 167.

The Cherubim has Shapechange at will as an SLA (caster level 157th!) as well as Astral Projection. Furthermore, it can only be permanently killed by a being of “higher status” than themselves (more divine ranks?) or they just come back to life in 1d10 minutes.

They also enjoy immunity to all non-epic magic and all spells from every school but Evocation, Divination and Universal spells. Again, unless you’re of “higher status” than they are.

And they can nuke everyone within 240 feet of them for 66d100 damage which repeats every round. It offers a reflex save, though, so who cares?

Did I mention they cast as 66th level Clerics with a caster level of 157 and they have 13 epic spells per day? To top it all off, they get an artifact that auto reflects the first two spells cast on it (epic or otherwise).

I know most D&D groups don’t fight angels, but this is a serious case of overkill. I honestly don’t know how you’re intended to kill this thing. Then again, I don’t know what a level 120+ party would look like either so… Let’s move on.

Here's the picture: A ****huge lion(multiple times larger than a standard sized wizard-keep) with the head of an Akkadian ruler, an artifact crown, and a corona of light.

https://i.ibb.co/rf4fWCQ/Screenshot-2019-01-30-22-54-40.png

Fluff just shows where the source material is and it's far too powerful for its' role. Additionally, the fact that I know what it should have been makes me angry.:smallmad:

This thing is a juiced up and lion-based version of a colossal lammasu. It should be a somewhat humanoid figure with two/three pairs of wings and a head with four faces, an eagle, a bull, a lion, and a man, and the artifact should be a massive flaming sword able to cut through anything not a stupidly OP crown.

[noob]

I just did remember the rules for epic seed combinations and in fact if you combine multiple epic seeds someone get to pick the school but it only have one school(usually with the most fitting school).
So make an epic spell of dispelling that also have divination seed(since in epic you can more or less pick your own cl you can make it able to auto dispel the boosts of the cherubim and unable to dispel your own boosts then you cast it three times) and make it be of the divination school and you can dispel the boosts on that thing then you just have to deal to it tons of damage.

Or since somehow ColorBlindNinja decided that a cherubim did protect its own buff spells with magic immunity get the one of a demilich which does not have the addendum of "higher rank" and thus you can no longer have your boost spells dispelled including your epic spells of boosting.
Then get regeneration(the property) and favor of the martyr and the cherubim can not do anything against you while you can cast epic divination spells on the cherubim.

[Karl Aegis]

I just did remember the rules for epic seed combinations and in fact if you combine multiple epic seeds someone get to pick the school but it only have one school(usually with the most fitting school).
So make an epic spell of dispelling that also have divination seed(since in epic you can more or less pick your own cl you can make it able to auto dispel the boosts of the cherubim and unable to dispel your own boosts then you cast it three times) and make it be of the divination school and you can dispel the boosts on that thing then you just have to deal to it tons of damage.

Or since somehow ColorBlindNinja decided that a cherubim did protect its own buff spells with magic immunity get the one of a demilich which does not have the addendum of "higher rank" and thus you can no longer have your boost spells dispelled including your epic spells of boosting.
Then get regeneration(the property) and favor of the martyr and the cherubim can not do anything against you while you can cast epic divination spells on the cherubim.

That doesn't work because:
A) The double crown prevents the first 2 spells cast on the Cherubim every round and
B) Re-echoing roar bypasses regeneration and averages 3333 damage every round

As to where they fit into a story.... They awaken when the universe awakens at the End of Days where all 24 of them makes a final stand with the 7 seraphim and whatever evil planar layers or planes decide to show up before they all get their butts whooped and devoured.

[noob]

That doesn't work because:
A) The double crown prevents the first 2 spells cast on the Cherubim every round and
B) Re-echoing roar bypasses regeneration and averages 3333 damage every round

As to where they fit into a story.... They awaken when the universe awakens at the End of Days where all 24 of them makes a final stand with the 7 seraphim and whatever evil planar layers or planes decide to show up before they all get their butts whooped and devoured.


A) The double crown prevents the first 2 spells cast on the Cherubim every round and
B) Re-echoing roar bypasses regeneration and averages 3333 damage every round
Is Re-echoing roar ex?
If not then it does not works because of magic immunity.
Also it is obvious I were going to cast the 3 epic dispels with divination school in a single turn because the starting point was that I had more contingent spells than the cherubim(and probably more celrity)
And with epic spells there is other ways to get immunity to damage such as adding to yourself the abilities of a zodar and of a creature immune to blunt damage and the properties of an anaxim.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Is Re-echoing roar ex?

It is SU.


If not then it does not works because of magic immunity.

:smallconfused: What are you talking about? Of course it still works, it just can't hurt the angel that's using it.

[noob]

It is SU.



:smallconfused: What are you talking about? Of course it still works, it just can't hurt the angel that's using it.

I was talking about the demilich magic immunity you can get with transform epic seed that then can not be dispelled due to its own presence.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I was talking about the demilich magic immunity you can get with transform epic seed that then can not be dispelled due to its own presence.

That would work.

[Karl Aegis]

Celerity doesn't work because Anti-magic Field. Likewise with contingency.

Re-echoing Roar also bypasses magic immunity.

[noob]

Celerity doesn't work because Anti-magic Field. Likewise with contingency.

Re-echoing Roar also bypasses magic immunity.

You could possibly have contingent spells triggered by "an antimagic zone is going to touch me"
celerity works since you probably saw the cherubim from far away with epic divination.
Also if you have initiate of mystra which you probably do when you reach level 21 and have no idea of which class to take now that you have epic spellcasting and so take 3 cleric levels at random then you can cast spells fine into an antimagic zone(or you were a cleric in the first place).
Not that it matters since you probably have the classical shrunk lead hat that covers you when an antimagic zone includes it thus allowing you to resume casting fine.
Or you had the great idea of having sent an ice assasin of an aleax of yourself that constantly sent messages to you and so if the cherubim comes close to it then you know it because you stop receiving messages.
Or you were an aleax of yourself thanks to mind swapping and so you are not impeded by anything ever including antimagic zones.
And if the antimagic zone is magical then your magic immunity protects you from it.
By the time you start fighting monsters with that stat block you are so high in high op you probably are using all the tricks of tippy.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Re-echoing Roar also bypasses magic immunity.

How so? The Demilich's magic immunity guards against SU effects.

[Karl Aegis]

How so? The Demilich's magic immunity guards against SU effects.

Divine Damage bypasses immunities and destroys barriers. So it would also destroy any intervening conical hat tricks.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Divine Damage bypasses immunities and destroys barriers. So it would also destroy any intervening conical hat tricks.

Can you quote a citation for that?

[Karl Aegis]

Can you quote a citation for that?

Immortals Handbook: Ascension page 127: "Divine Damage penetrates any type of magical defense (including a force field, prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc.), destroying the barrier in the process."

"...the other half results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to being reduced by resistance to fire-based attacks."(Flame Strike, SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm)

[ColorBlindNinja]

Immortals Handbook: Ascension page 127: "Divine Damage penetrates any type of magical defense (including a force field, prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc.), destroying the barrier in the process."

Magic immunity is EX, it should still guard against it.

Speaking of angels...



Elohim, CR 46


Image link (https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001234im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Elohim2.JPG)

https://web.archive.org/web/20060830001234im_/http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/Elohim2.JPG



And now, what just might well be the weakest monster we’ve seen so far. The Elohim is basically an epic Paladin angel. It even has some Paladin abilities, including Paladin spellcasting (caster level 16).

All of its SLAs suck with, except once per week it can summon a Solar. Its DR and Regeneration are a measly 15 and can by bypassed by evil and epic.

The Elohim’s only two noteworthy abilities are an aura that blinds everyone who fails a REF save and repeats every round and a touch attack that deals 66d20 half fire/half divine damage. It can only use this ability on each opponent once per day.

It also has a suit of armor that forces whoever attacks the wearer to act last in a round.

My prediction is that a level 40 party will tear the Elohim to shreds. The only possible way for it to pose any sort of threat is to summon a Solar and abuse its Wish SLA. Other than that, it’s basically XP fodder.

[JoshuaZ]

My prediction is that a level 40 party will tear the Elohim to shreds. The only possible way for it to pose any sort of threat is to summon a Solar and abuse its Wish SLA. Other than that, it’s basically XP fodder.

This might make a decent challenge at what? Around level 25 or so? The only issue with making it even lower is that the DCs for the blinding thing might be too high.

[ColorBlindNinja]

This might make a decent challenge at what? Around level 25 or so? The only issue with making it even lower is that the DCs for the blinding thing might be too high.

That and the touch attack will probably one shot someone. If it lives that long.

[noob]

Immortals Handbook: Ascension page 127: "Divine Damage penetrates any type of magical defense (including a force field, prismatic sphere, wall of force, etc.), destroying the barrier in the process."

So they decide to stupidly change the mechanics of pre epic entirely.
Now a low level cleric with flame-strike can destroy everything magical that can help to defend against that spell or that is a defense.
So for example there is illusions in a corridor now flame strike can destroy those and now flamestrike can destroy an entire guard and wards and so on.
They honestly should have made a new kind of damage and call it rudisplork damage or something like that and give it the properties they want.

[Karl Aegis]

Border Patrol Demi-gods, hell yeah!

They do get Greater Teleport at will and come with 300,000 troops to support them. The sheer number of troops are probably what is important about them. A continuing trend of having spell-like abilities in more than one part of their entry...

[noob]

Divine Damage bypasses immunities and destroys barriers. So it would also destroy any intervening conical hat tricks.

it would not because you played 1500 actions before the thingie could use its ability to destroy the conical hat.

[Elricaltovilla]

Border Patrol Demi-gods, hell yeah!

They do get Greater Teleport at will and come with 300,000 troops to support them. The sheer number of troops are probably what is important about them. A continuing trend of having spell-like abilities in more than one part of their entry...

I feel like "comes with 300,000 troops" might be relevant just for the sheer volume of it. Are the troopers' statistics listed anywhere?

[noob]

I feel like "comes with 300,000 troops" might be relevant just for the sheer volume of it. Are the troopers' statistics listed anywhere?

If the troops are solars then maybe it is significant.
If it is commoners with pitchforks that suicide as soon as they see something to avoid the buckets of rolls for initiative then it is irrelevant.

[Karl Aegis]

So they decide to stupidly change the mechanics of pre epic entirely.
Now a low level cleric with flame-strike can destroy everything magical that can help to defend against that spell or that is a defense.
So for example there is illusions in a corridor now flame strike can destroy those and now flamestrike can destroy an entire guard and wards and so on.
They honestly should have made a new kind of damage and call it rudisplork damage or something like that and give it the properties they want.

Wait till you see all the new damage types! Bane, Astro, Telluric, Quantum, Atomic, Annhilating, Chronal, Gravatic, Karmic, Thellemic, Antimatter, Omega, Ultima....

[Theoboldi]

Wait till you see all the new damage types! Bane, Astro, Telluric, Quantum, Atomic, Annhilating, Chronal, Gravatic, Karmic, Thellemic, Antimatter, Omega, Ultima....

You kid now, but wait until we get to the last few monsters.
Yeah, I dont know if that is really the right terminology. Bite me. :P

[Karl Aegis]

I feel like "comes with 300,000 troops" might be relevant just for the sheer volume of it. Are the troopers' statistics listed anywhere?

1 Elohim
1 Solar
10 Planetar
320 Astral Devas
10,000 Monadic Devas
320,000 Movanic Devas
3001 Auxiliaries

All get new (and improved) divinity templates to go along with their hit dice. Of note are Solars which can get up to the Intermediate Deity template, far outclassing the Demi-deity templates the other angels (even the Elohim himself) can get.

[Florian]

I'd say the people who wrote Elder Evils did a slightly better job at making world-shaking walking apocalypses, with stuff like the Signs and whatnot.

Slightly.

At least it tried to decouple "world shaking events" from sheer personal power, the route we see with Epic and Deities.

[noob]

If they did not want to add damage types I would understand them making changes to old kinds of damages but since they do add new damage they could have wrapped their changes to divine damage into a new kind of damage.

[DrMotives]

Wait till you see all the new damage types! Bane, Astro, Telluric, Quantum, Atomic, Annhilating, Chronal, Gravatic, Karmic, Thellemic, Antimatter, Omega, Ultima....

Given the rest of the content seen in this thread, I honestly have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not. This sounds terrible, and I love it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1 Elohim
1 Solar
10 Planetar
320 Astral Devas
10,000 Monadic Devas
320,000 Movanic Devas
3001 Auxiliaries


Where are you getting that from? The organization line for this angel says "solitary".

[tyckspoon]

Given the rest of the content seen in this thread, I honestly have no idea if you're being sarcastic or not. This sounds terrible, and I love it.

No, I think that's about right - when you start hitting the golems made of stars, black holes, and degenerate neutron matter they pretty much just make up whatever damage type sounds like it might be appropriate and/or cool. I think they're all just meant to be variations on 'this damage cannot be resisted with standard Resist Energy effects', and it probably would have made more sense for the author to just create a tag that said that - 'this deals 1brazillion d trillion damage, Penetrating (50%)' or something that would indicate 'this percentage of damage goes through all resistances.'

[Melcar]

Honestly, I don't agree. Epic level PC parties can deliver arbitrarily high numbers in any given category, so numbers are never going to be an interesting challenge.

That is solely depending on the level of experience, system mastery, optimization and the party at hand! A party of 4 level 21 low optimized fighters with can have trouble taking down 4000 hp, before they themselves run out! And killing something before I it’s enrage timer procs is often a prerequisite if you want to down the boss!

[Lleban]

New and different damage types are fine in principle, especially if we're supposed to be running about the multiverse fighting uber angels immune to everything, undead cyborgs who put stars in bottles, or whatever crazy concepts you face at that level. I just wonder if those damage types are available to players or just monsters.

[Karl Aegis]

Where are you getting that from? The organization line for this angel says "solitary".

Table A-4 on page 27.


New and different damage types are fine in principle, especially if we're supposed to be running about the multiverse fighting uber angels immune to everything, undead cyborgs who put stars in bottles, or whatever crazy concepts you face at that level. I just wonder if those damage types are available to players or just monsters.

Most of those are available to the players. Most of the more esoteric damage types are locked behind templates on par with ye olde Cherubim at 100+ hit dice, though. Technically, you can throw a miniature atomic bomb at dudes at ecl 53, but you would miss out on quite a few goodies.