High-level gishes/theurges/etc?

[danielxcutter]

Okay, so I'm guessing that one of the most obvious and/or prominent shortcomings of multiclassed characters, such as gishes, theurge-types, Arcane Tricksters and whatnot, is that you're invariably a bit behind in at least one aspect of your build and probably even farther behind in the other(s).

An arcane gish for example, might not be too far behind in either BAB or casting, but obviously you're going to have a worse BAB than the Barbarian and lower-level spells than the full casters even if you aren't bleeding caster levels left and right due to, say, Swiftblade.

The reason those kinds of builds stay relevant - besides being cool, of course - is that the abilities you get, either in terms of multiple skillsets, such as most theurge-types, the synergy, like an arcane gish casting Quickened True Strike on themselves, unique abilities - for example Swiftblades - or a combination of the previous three.

I'd guess the difference comes up the most at lower-ish levels? A Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5 doesn't need minions to beat the crap out of their foes for them, but a Fighter 1/Wizard 5 is just a slightly less squishier caster than their peers. Theurge-types are strictly inferior until - and often even a bit after - their dual-progression PrCs, but when you get 9th-level spells on at least one side, the slight deficiency in that part is more than made up for with the not-so-far-behind spells on your other side, no?

After you get 9th-level spells, then the only real differences from a normal spellcaster that hasn't lost any progress are caster levels and spell slots, and you don't need more than +16 BAB if you can make up for it with buffs.

It looks like it gets even more pronounced post-Epic, especially with a prestige class that normally loses a bunch of caster levels. Swiftblade in particular comes to mind; you can get 9th-level spells alongside the varied and powerful abilities that make people seriously contemplate giving up 9ths in the first place.

And in the words of :xykon: : A big pile of spells isn't enough when the other guy has a big pile of spells AND the strength to crush your windpipe with his bare phlanges. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

What do you guys have to say on this topic?

[Troacctid]

Your analysis is mostly correct, but I'll add that such builds often have improved utility at low levels as well, because the benefits of the "other side" of your progression are often frontloaded. For example, if I'm playing a game starting at level 1, I would argue that Jade Phoenix Mage is actually a more powerful option overall than single-class wizard, because it allows me to start as a warblade, and warblades are brutal in the early game.

[danielxcutter]

Your analysis is mostly correct, but I'll add that such builds often have improved utility at low levels as well, because the benefits of the "other side" of your progression are often frontloaded. For example, if I'm playing a game starting at level 1, I would argue that Jade Phoenix Mage is actually a more powerful option overall than single-class wizard, because it allows me to start as a warblade, and warblades are brutal in the early game.

Hmm, the "linear warriors quadratic mages" works both ways, doesn't it? Cast a few spells a day and then you're stuck as a commoner in a funny dress until next morning, eh?

[Kayblis]

There's a few caveats to that analysis, and it mostly depends on the kind of character.

Yes, most of the problems of a theurge class end when he gets to 15+ and the dual progression picks up on the quadratic part of spell advancement. The problem is, when you get 9ths, your full-caster friend has had them for a while now, and you still have less of the higher slots because dual progression only happens for at most 10 levels. At 20 you're a demigod, but the road to there is noticeably more rocky and painful, and on all levels before that you're behind the curve. Yes, you get more spells from a different class, but by 19 you still doesn't have 9ths and many of your enemies do. And the full-caster can use Limited Wish to cast any spell your other half could if he reeeeally wanted to. You actually gain little by level 20, when you finally get on the curve.

Yes, having full BAB will help you deal more damage with full-attacks. Problem is, you get that +16 by level 20, and you hurted your spell progression up until then instead of Summoning things for damage. In my experience, most of the "+16/9th level spells" are more of an optimization challenge than a change in playstyle. Any level 20 full-caster can buy a way to use Divine Power and have +20 BAB for as long as he needs to. Yes, it costs an action most of the time. No, it doesn't make a 20-level build investment worth it. I'd say the BAB isn't the real kicker, it's the whole chassis - having more HP and Fort lets you facetank what you couldn't, and wearing heavy armor is both cool and efficient.

The only thing that is really "worth it" in terms of character strenght is the special powers. Maneuvers from ToB are great for a lot of situations and really helps in wars of attrition. Psionics brings new powers to the table that were never accessible to a common caster. The ability to cast as a free action, or have multiple actions, or activate effects faster than normal, all play a huge role in high-level play. Anything other than that is usually covered by spells, because Draconic Polymorph exists for every situation you need raw strenght and Time Stop pretty much spells "I win" in most scenarios. It's not a fair game.

[danielxcutter]

There's a few caveats to that analysis, and it mostly depends on the kind of character.

Okay fair, I'm just going to break this up into parts and take them one at a time.


Yes, most of the problems of a theurge class end when he gets to 15+ and the dual progression picks up on the quadratic part of spell advancement.

Wouldn't the low levels, where you haven't really gotten enough theurge-progress and thus have none of the advantages while still having the disadvantages, be more of a problem?


The problem is, when you get 9ths, your full-caster friend has had them for a while now, and you still have less of the higher slots because dual progression only happens for at most 10 levels. At 20 you're a demigod, but the road to there is noticeably more rocky and painful, and on all levels before that you're behind the curve.

I'm not saying you're wrong - higher spell levels are really that important - but I'd think it's going to be relatively less rocky the higher-level you are, especially if you're the only real caster, or the other caster specializes in something else(example: theurge focused on buffs and summons and psion blaster). And once you get 9th-level spells - especially in Epic games - you are really going to have a lot of spell slots per day.


Yes, you get more spells from a different class, but by 19 you still doesn't have 9ths and many of your enemies do. And the full-caster can use Limited Wish to cast any spell your other half could if he reeeeally wanted to. You actually gain little by level 20, when you finally get on the curve.

Hmm... It depends on which way you look at it. If you just need a few niche spells, then you could get those with Limited Wish, yes, or even an item. If you're milking your large number of spell slots and diverse spell lists for all they're worth, though, that's a bit of a different story. Buffs for the whole party! Use Arcane Spellsurge to cast your arcane spells as swift actions and divine spells as normal!


Yes, having full BAB will help you deal more damage with full-attacks. Problem is, you get that +16 by level 20, and you hurted your spell progression up until then instead of Summoning things for damage.

While I can understand what you're getting at, a) +16 BAB is more of a minimum benchmark(+17 or +18 isn't too hard, methinks), and b) Rather than summoning, I'd focus on battle control and buffs(coughHastecoughMass Snake's Swiftnesscough). Better to help the team instead of trying to be the team by yourself, after all(though yes, summoning certainly helps).

This is mostly just nitpicking; don't mind this part of mine too much.


In my experience, most of the "+16/9th level spells" are more of an optimization challenge than a change in playstyle.

It's not just that. Anything much slower than that starts lagging behind severely. Learning Teleport doesn't help much when the other casters just got - or already have - the Greater version, for example. And after Epic levels start, you don't get more iterative attacks, so while you might be able to afford to delay your casting progress, the same can't be said for your BAB.


Any level 20 full-caster can buy a way to use Divine Power and have +20 BAB for as long as he needs to. Yes, it costs an action most of the time. No, it doesn't make a 20-level build investment worth it.

Hey, I wouldn't say any; not all DMs let Extra Spell work like that and I'm pretty sure that's not RAI. And what about Illithid Slayers?


I'd say the BAB isn't the real kicker, it's the whole chassis - having more HP and Fort lets you facetank what you couldn't, and wearing heavy armor is both cool and efficient.

Well, I'll agree that BAB isn't the only thing you should be looking at, yes. You can't replicate BAB with spells or items without jumping through more than a couple of hoops, but having more hit points, AC, and other things are also quite significant, yes. Abjurant Champion has full BAB and casting, but also has excellent class features, a good Fort save as well as Will, and d10 HD - more or less everything a gish needs.


The only thing that is really "worth it" in terms of character strength is the special powers. Maneuvers from ToB are great for a lot of situations and really helps in wars of attrition. Psionics brings new powers to the table that were never accessible to a common caster. The ability to cast as a free action, or have multiple actions, or activate effects faster than normal, all play a huge role in high-level play.

Define "worth it". I don't deny ToB or psionics are fun and plenty of things to the table. But being a decent swordsman and comparative to most archmages isn't exactly that common, is it? Besides, with the right spells, you can pull off things neither martials nor pure casters can do - and let's be honest, how many other character archetypes get as much mileage from a Quickened True Strike?


Anything other than that is usually covered by spells, because Draconic Polymorph exists for every situation you need raw strength and Time Stop pretty much spells "I win" in most scenarios. It's not a fair game.

Whoa, whoa, hang on there. Oh sure, those spells are good, but why do those invalidate gishes? If anything, gishes get even better mileage from those; the former from good BAB and feat synergy, and the latter because extra time to buff is incredibly useful, especially short-term non-Persistable ones like, oh I don't know Greater Heroism?

Caster-martial disparity is one of the biggest problems in 3.5, yes, but it's kinda exaggerated sometimes, especially on this forum. From what I've seen, it's not always as simple as that. Most people don't try to squeeze every single drop of power out of their builds, especially the ones who play to have fun instead of to win.

I mean, just because you can break the system over your knee doesn't mean you have to.

[Troacctid]

It's worth noting as well that many gish and theurge builds lose only a single level of casting. That's the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer.

[danielxcutter]

It's worth noting as well that many gish and theurge builds lose only a single level of casting. That's the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer.

At the most, two or three. And who's to say the other full casters haven't lost CL either?

[sleepyphoenixx]

Aside from the things already mentioned losing CL is also a big problem in higher-op play because it makes your spells easier to dispel and lowers your chances of dispelling enemy spells. This is especially painful for classes like gishes who rely on their buffs, but it also hurts theurges.

Then there's the fact that single-class full casters already get enough spell slots at the mid-high levels to last all day.
And that for most of their career before that theurges actually have less spells/day or only slightly more but lower level ones (without early entry shenanigans at least).
So by the time the theurge actually has a decisive advantage in spells per day the single-class caster has more than enough for all but the most rest-deprived of campaigns, and they're higher level, higher CL and probably higher DC too on top of that.

Adding to the problem is that they're still limited by the action economy. It doesn't matter how many spells you have or that you can cast & full attack if you can still only do one thing per round. Combat just doesn't last long enough in most cases to really turn that into an advantage.
That's also the main reason Swiftblade (for Perpetual Options and free-action Haste) and psionic theurges (Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Schism, Temporal Acceleration) are so good, because they break that action limit.
It's not the BAB or extra spells/powers, it's this simple fact that makes them worthwhile. And the lack of it is what makes Mystic Theurge the worst theurge class, simply because they're limited to Celerity at best.

And while it's true that at high levels the drawbacks lessen in that you get 9th level spells eventually there's still the opportunity cost to factor in.
Because while the gish/theurge spent 10 levels on Swiftblade or his theurge class the single-class caster probably took another PrC.
This is especially important for wizards, who have awesome PrCs. Incantatrix, IotSV, Archmage, Shadowcraft Mage, all classes with powerful and buld-defining special abilities. That the theurge has no room for.
And most of the time they're worth a lot more than "also cast spells from another class" unless it's something with good synergy like psionics action economy manipulation.


At the most, two or three. And who's to say the other full casters haven't lost CL either?
Since most good caster PrCs have full casting and we're talking about optimized play? It's unlikely unless they traded it for something really good (like Malconvoker for example).

[Eldariel]

I'm not saying you're wrong - higher spell levels are really that important - but I'd think it's going to be relatively less rocky the higher-level you are, especially if you're the only real caster, or the other caster specializes in something else(example: theurge focused on buffs and summons and psion blaster). And once you get 9th-level spells - especially in Epic games - you are really going to have a lot of spell slots per day.

This is kinda true but when rebuilding the Wyrmlords for RHoD for instance, I noticed that the difference in each spell level is just that big. There's always a spell that turbocharges you compared to the previous level or simply completely negates a weakness. 9th level spells are the most obvious: Shapechange completely removes the need for any other spells as that spell alone enables you to do almost anything, Wish can actually do almost anything, Gate can do almost anything, Time Stop completely breaks the combat part of the game [effectively allowing attacks without the opponent having a chance to counter], Disjunction suddenly makes all magical defenses nigh' useless [and magical defenses are the only ones that matter on this level], Genesis produces an impenetrable divinity-proof base where you can build your own world, etc.

But before that too, 8th level spells offer Polymorph Any Object, which essentially suddenly means you can build anything out of anything (not to mention waltz around in ridiculously powerful base form that makes you all but impervious to attacks and make all your friends waltz around in absurdly powerful forms too), Mind Blank completely breaks the game-defining information wars, Greater Planar Binding gets you pet Pit Fiends, etc.

7th level spells have, y'know, Simulacrum (gets you any spell-like in the game with some effort, let alone what you can accomplish by creating Simulacrums of yourself or such), Limited Wish (mini-Wish, has autosuccess among its options), Magnificent Mansion (mini-Genesis), and a ton of improved/late-Wizard options (Control Weather, Plane Shift, Greater Teleport, etc.).

6th level has Contingency completely changing how combat and your defenses work, Planar Binding in its proper, insane form, Antimagic Field with all its protective uses (cast it with a hole for yourself from Extraordinary Spell Aim/Archmage while flying and anything without natural flight can basically never close in on you), Disintegrate for lesser degree of terrain manipulation and building, etc.

5th level is beyond ridiculous with Teleport/Lesser Planar Binding/Contact Other Plane/etc. Lots of game-changing spells there.


And well, below that you again have all the usual suspects. Note, that's only a few off the core spells of course. There's so much more, and on every list. Basically, the higher level always gives you options you didn't have before so it's very painful indeed to get it late because you're essentially an extremely restricted version of a full caster of equal level. When I made Kharn a Ruby Knight Vindicator losing enough caster levels to make him cap at level 4 spells instead of level 6, he became much weaker in spite of the Crusader buffs and more importantly, he didn't do much lesser opponents couldn't specifically because he lacked higher level spells opening up new options. I found that hard to justify in spite of how good a PRC RKV actually is. That's how big the difference is.

[Anthrowhale]

There's a case for an Archivist as the best theurge. You get access to nearly every spell in the game. Your spells are divine, so you can cast in armor. With a single dip into Sacred Exorcist you get access to DMM[Persist] Divine Power for full BAB. Weapon and armor proficiency are handled by Master's Touch (also persistable). Altogether, you become a fighter/spellcaster with a single prestige class level that does not degrade spellcasting. You lack the ability to natively skill monkey, but there are a half dozen divine advancing prestige classes providing 4+ skills/level and you are Intelligence focused so this is fixable without degrading other aspects. In total, you can make a Fighter/Skill Monkey/Spellcaster which subsumes most of the abilities of most PHB classes.

You lack some of the "specials" from the classes like bard song, bardic knowledge, trapfinding, and wild shape, but theurges typically lack or effectively lack these things anyways.

[danielxcutter]

Aside from the things already mentioned losing CL is also a big problem in higher-op play because it makes your spells easier to dispel and lowers your chances of dispelling enemy spells. This is especially painful for classes like gishes who rely on their buffs, but it also hurts theurges.

You're not wrong. Lots of gishes and theurges take Practiced Spellcaster because of that, but you're still burning one or two feats. And that's assuming you have access to that feat.


Then there's the fact that single-class full casters already get enough spell slots at the mid-high levels to last all day.
And that for most of their career before that theurges actually have less spells/day or only slightly more but lower level ones (without early entry shenanigans at least).

...less? I mean, I get the "only lower leveled spells", which is the biggest weakness of theurges, but a couple of levels in the theurge class should give you loads of spell slots, if only in quantity rather than quality.


So by the time the theurge actually has a decisive advantage in spells per day the single-class caster has more than enough for all but the most rest-deprived of campaigns, and they're higher level, higher CL and probably higher DC too on top of that.

Higher level until the theurge gets 9ths on at least one side. Mind, that's usually at ECL 20, to be fair. The point about save DCs is perfectly valid. The CL part depends, but either you're taking a hit to CL on at least one side, or you're burning a feat or two on Practiced Spellcaster, so yeah.


Adding to the problem is that they're still limited by the action economy. It doesn't matter how many spells you have or that you can cast & full attack if you can still only do one thing per round. Combat just doesn't last long enough in most cases to really turn that into an advantage.
That's also the main reason Swiftblade (for Perpetual Options and free-action Haste) and psionic theurges (Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Schism, Temporal Acceleration) are so good, because they break that action limit.
It's not the BAB or extra spells/powers, it's this simple fact that makes them worthwhile. And the lack of it is what makes Mystic Theurge the worst theurge class, simply because they're limited to Celerity at best.

Hmm... well, to be fair, Swiftblade has a lot more than just action economy powers. As for Mystic Theurge and the like, how about Arcane Spellsurge? Cast your divine spells as normal, and your arcane spells on fast-forward? Quicken Spell can also help; you've got lots of spell slots to use for that, especially at high levels.


And while it's true that at high levels the drawbacks lessen in that you get 9th level spells eventually there's still the opportunity cost to factor in.
Because while the gish/theurge spent 10 levels on Swiftblade or his theurge class the single-class caster probably took another PrC.
This is especially important for wizards, who have awesome PrCs. Incantatrix, IotSV, Archmage, Shadowcraft Mage, all classes with powerful and build-defining special abilities. That the theurge has no room for.
And most of the time they're worth a lot more than "also cast spells from another class" unless it's something with good synergy like psionics action economy manipulation.

Well, that's fair enough, at least in terms of "pure casters have been doing things that make them better at casting". Don't think I'd use Incantrix or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil of all PrCs as examples, but the point still stands. Whether "also cast spells from another class" is worth it is a little more iffy - though if you're doing a theurge, you're probably not trying to directly compete with the other casters in the party, if there are any in the first place.


Since most good caster PrCs have full casting and we're talking about optimized play? It's unlikely unless they traded it for something really good (like Malconvoker for example).

"Most"? A lot, probably. Absolutely no idea if you're right or not in terms of most, though, and I mean that literally. Still, there are plenty of full casting progression PrCs with relatively simple entry requirements, even if they're not the majority(and they very well might be; as said, I don't know).


This is kinda true but when rebuilding the Wyrmlords for RHoD for instance, I noticed that the difference in each spell level is just that big. There's always a spell that turbocharges you compared to the previous level or simply completely negates a weakness.

Yes, I suppose that's always a thing, until you get up to Epic or at least 9th-level spells.


-snip-

When I made Kharn a Ruby Knight Vindicator losing enough caster levels to make him cap at level 4 spells instead of level 6, he became much weaker in spite of the Crusader buffs and more importantly, he didn't do much lesser opponents couldn't specifically because he lacked higher level spells opening up new options. I found that hard to justify in spite of how good a PRC RKV actually is. That's how big the difference is.

To be honest, I don't know about RHoD(stands for Red Hand of Doom or something, I think?) much, or the Wyrmlords, or who or what Kharn is, so I don't think I can talk about this much without more information. Still, I think I get the point somewhat...


There's a case for an Archivist as the best theurge. You get access to nearly every spell in the game. Your spells are divine, so you can cast in armor. With a single dip into Sacred Exorcist you get access to DMM[Persist] Divine Power for full BAB. Weapon and armor proficiency are handled by Master's Touch (also persistable). Altogether, you become a fighter/spellcaster with a single prestige class level that does not degrade spellcasting. You lack the ability to natively skill monkey, but there are a half dozen divine advancing prestige classes providing 4+ skills/level and you are Intelligence focused so this is fixable without degrading other aspects. In total, you can make a Fighter/Skill Monkey/Spellcaster which subsumes most of the abilities of most PHB classes.

I was talking about the more "traditional" terms of theurges and gishes, as in the multiclassing ones. I'm not saying Archivist isn't powerful(it is, and quite), but it's not really what this is about.


You lack some of the "specials" from the classes like bard song, bardic knowledge, trapfinding, and wild shape, but theurges typically lack or effectively lack these things anyways.

The "specials" in this case are things like being able to beat face while still casting (arcane) spells, or pulling on not just one but two kinds of magic at once. Plus the class features from some of the prestige classes, like Abjurant Champion or Arcane Hierophant.



Also, I'm really talking about high-level gishes and theurges - or really, hybrid builds like Arcane Tricksters - to be frank, not in general. I specifically also mentioned Epic levels; while few games ever get to that point, it's true that the gap shrinks like whoa once you get 9th-level spells. And it's even smaller when you get up to all 20 levels' worth of whatever-your-casting-class; at that point it's mostly caster levels and feats.

[Eldariel]

To be honest, I don't know about RHoD(stands for Red Hand of Doom or something, I think?) much, or the Wyrmlords, or who or what Kharn is, so I don't think I can talk about this much without more information. Still, I think I get the point somewhat...

I was intentionally being vague so as to avoid posting spoilers for people who might run the campaign: the important point is, Cleric 11 is much more frightening than Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6 (and even Cleric 12 compared to RKV7 even in spite of the extremely powerful Divine Impetus option being on the table while Cleric 12 gets no extra spell level). And that's not because Crusader and RKV are poor classes, far from it, but simply because Cleric 11 gets 6th level spells with all the beauties that come with those.

[danielxcutter]

I was intentionally being vague so as to avoid posting spoilers for people who might run the campaign: the important point is, Cleric 11 is much more frightening than Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 6 (and even Cleric 12 compared to RKV7 even in spite of the extremely powerful Divine Impetus option being on the table while Cleric 12 gets no extra spell level). And that's not because Crusader and RKV are poor classes, far from it, but simply because Cleric 11 gets 6th level spells with all the beauties that come with those.

Which I suppose is fair, mainly for two reasons:

1) Because delayed casting progress is always a pretty big problem until you get 9ths, and still a bit of a problem unless you get up to Epic levels and fill up all 20 levels' worth of casting.(This is a point I've been mentioning for a while.)

2) Because 6th-level Cleric spells are packed with goodies; seriously, even Core has spells like Word of Recall, Heal and Greater Dispel Magic, and sourcebooks provide things like Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity.

[sleepyphoenixx]

...less? I mean, I get the "only lower leveled spells", which is the biggest weakness of theurges, but a couple of levels in the theurge class should give you loads of spell slots, if only in quantity rather than quality.

It's been a while but i did the math once. You can probably dig it up with a search. Or just add up the spell slots yourself, that's probably faster. :smalltongue:
Iirc if you factor in bonus spells from high ability scores a (non early entry) theurge breaks even on spells/day around level 10-12, but at that point the single-class caster still has 1-2 spell levels on him. They only decisively pull ahead at level 15 or so.

Obviously it also depends on things like if you're SAD like a wizard/archivist or MAD, if you're a specialist wizard and if you're a cleric because of domain slots, but i think that was about the point where a theurge actually had more spells/day than a single-class caster.

[danielxcutter]

It's been a while but i did the math once. You can probably dig it up with a search. Or just add up the spell slots yourself, that's probably faster. :smalltongue:
Iirc if you factor in bonus spells from high ability scores a (non early entry) theurge breaks even on spells/day around level 10-12, but at that point the single-class caster still has 1-2 spell levels on him. They only decisively pull ahead at level 15 or so.

Obviously it also depends on things like if you're SAD like a wizard/archivist or MAD, if you're a specialist wizard and if you're a cleric because of domain slots, but i think that was about the point where a theurge actually had more spells/day than a single-class caster.

Eh, I don't think SAD/MAD factors in that particular area too much. Also, I think Archivists get bonus slots from Wisdom?

[Particle_Man]

A complaint I have heard about gishes is "ok maxed out the prestige class; now what?" One way around that is to stack two theurge classes (like mystic theurge and arcane hierophant). That way instead of ending up a secondary caster/tertiary caster you end up a secondary caster/secondary caster.

One of my favourite theruge classes is sapphire hierophant, and part of that is because using only core rules and the book that introduces sapphire hierophant (so presumably a DM that allows sapphire hierophant at all would allow the early entry by such means) one can enter the prestige class from cleric 3/incarnate 1, meaning that one loses only one level of cleric. Thus at level 20 one gets to cleric caster level 19/incarnate manifester level 11, and the lawful incarnate has nice things. That ain't bad.

And for some parties a theurge can shine but they tend to be if you are the only caster in the group (You are Gandalf and you have a bunch of dwarf/elf/human/halfing warrior/rogue types, with maybe a tiny amount of magic from the human ranger, or you are Merlin in a party of Knights of the Round Table). This might be more likely with a small party.

And sometimes a flaw becomes a virtue - those mostly martial parties I mentioned? Well if you are worried about your tier 1 caster roflstomping monsters that otherwise would overwhelm the tier 4 martials, slowing down your progression with a theurge class might be one way to reduce the power disparity.

[danielxcutter]

A complaint I have heard about gishes is "ok maxed out the prestige class; now what?" One way around that is to stack two theurge classes (like mystic theurge and arcane hierophant). That way instead of ending up a secondary caster/tertiary caster you end up a secondary caster/secondary caster.

Yeah, that can happen. It's probably why people staple more than one PrC in a lot of gish builds as well.


One of my favourite theruge classes is sapphire hierophant, and part of that is because using only core rules and the book that introduces sapphire hierophant (so presumably a DM that allows sapphire hierophant at all would allow the early entry by such means) one can enter the prestige class from cleric 3/incarnate 1, meaning that one loses only one level of cleric. Thus at level 20 one gets to cleric caster level 19/incarnate manifester level 11, and the lawful incarnate has nice things. That ain't bad.

It's Sapphire Hierarch. :smalltongue:

The "intended" entry is probably Incarnate 2/Cleric 3, but that's still a lot less of a delay than Wizard 3/Cleric 3 or whatnot, especially since Incarnate is front-loaded like whoa.

Also, Sapphire Hierarches are probably a bit like gishes, since they get buffs like Divine Power from the Cleric side and lots of melee-boosting soulmelds from the LN Incarnate side. They own.


And for some parties a theurge can shine but they tend to be if you are the only caster in the group (You are Gandalf and you have a bunch of dwarf/elf/human/halfing warrior/rogue types, with maybe a tiny amount of magic from the human ranger, or you are Merlin in a party of Knights of the Round Table). This might be more likely with a small party.

And sometimes a flaw becomes a virtue - those mostly martial parties I mentioned? Well if you are worried about your tier 1 caster roflstomping monsters that otherwise would overwhelm the tier 4 martials, slowing down your progression with a theurge class might be one way to reduce the power disparity.

Yes, theurges tend to shine the most when you're the only caster - or also, if I'm right, when you don't tread on the toes of the other caster(s), such as a buff-focused theurge and an Astral Construct-focused Shaper or a blaster Kineticist. Or really most straight Psions; they tend to suck at party buffs.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Eh, I don't think SAD/MAD factors in that particular area too much. Also, I think Archivists get bonus slots from Wisdom?

It matters more than you'd think when the full caster gets bonus spells to level(s) the theurge can't even cast yet.
Or when you consider that a theurge usually won't have a high casting score for both sides unless he's a wizard/archivist, especially once you factor in boni from level-appropriate gear and tomes.

[danielxcutter]

It matters more than you'd think when the full caster gets bonus spells to level(s) the theurge can't even cast yet.
Or when you consider that a theurge usually won't have a high casting score for both sides unless he's a wizard/archivist, especially once you factor in boni from level-appropriate gear and tomes.

Okay, fair enough.