Thief Wizard (Illusion) - Opinions for Spells from 1st - 4th

[HermanTheWize]

Hello Guys, it's been a long while since I posted.

For a new game I'm playing a High Elf Illusion Wizard who used to be the designated thief of his old pirate crew (before they were captured).

Anyways, he uses his magic to help him steal/stealth (and for the party scout, hide and of course CC for fights).


I would like everyone's opinions on what spells you think are a "must" for each level up to 4th (higher if you would like). Just give me your top 2 spells for each level for this character.

Thanks guys

[RogueJK]

Narrowing it down to just two per level is tough, but here's what I've got for a Thief Pirate Wizard.

Cantrips:
Minor Illusion (unlimited simple illusions)
Mage Hand (telekinetic swiping; even better with 3 levels of Arcane Trickster Rogue)

Level 1:
Find Familiar (scout, companion, helper, Advantage, etc.; every good pirate needs a parrot or monkey on his shoulder)
Feather Fall (nothing makes for a flashy getaway like swan-diving off the rooftop; also handy if he or someone else fell off the ship's rigging)

Level 2:
Alter Self (instant disguises; water breathing and swim speed are handy while seafaring)
Misty Step (short range teleportation; emergency getaways when the authorities try to take him into custody)

Level 3:
Fly (exploration; thievery in high places, getaways)
Major Image (versatile illusions with few limits)

Level 4:
Greater Invisibility (duh)
Dimension Door (long range teleportation for break-ins and getaways)


Note that these are all utility spells, so you'll want to fill in the gaps with some combat spells too.

[HermanTheWize]

Narrowing it down to just two per level is tough, but here's what I've got for a Thief Pirate Wizard.....


Note that these are all utility spells, so you'll want to fill in the gaps with some combat spells too.

Thanks for the list man. Thanks a lot and thanks for explaining each choice. I don't mind them being mostly Utility as I can always use them for CC/Buff purposes in most cases if I'm creative.

I'm trying to stick to exactly what my Character would prioritize learning, not what optimizes combat. I may just have be more creative when using the spells in combat to make them effective.

[opaopajr]

As a past pirate, you should definitely have Control Flames & Mending, (and maybe Create/Destroy Water & Gust of Wind, if you leveled with them that far,). Those will be life savers.

[HermanTheWize]

As a past pirate, you should definitely have Control Flames & Mending, (and maybe Create/Destroy Water & Gust of Wind, if you leveled with them that far,). Those will be life savers.

I like the gust idea, think that would be really cool.

[Azazel_Unbound]

Mislead woule probably be a good option, if its a spell level that you can cast

[MilkmanDanimal]

Narrowing it down to just two per level is tough, but here's what I've got for a Thief Pirate Wizard.

Cantrips:
Minor Illusion (unlimited simple illusions)
Mage Hand (telekinetic swiping; even better with 3 levels of Arcane Trickster Rogue)

Level 1:
Find Familiar (scout, companion, helper, Advantage, etc.; every good pirate needs a parrot or monkey on his shoulder)
Feather Fall (nothing makes for a flashy getaway like swan-diving off the rooftop; also handy if he or someone else fell off the ship's rigging)

Level 2:
Alter Self (instant disguises; water breathing and swim speed are handy while seafaring)
Misty Step (short range teleportation; emergency getaways when the authorities try to take him into custody)

Level 3:
Fly (exploration; thievery in high places, getaways)
Major Image (versatile illusions with few limits)

Level 4:
Greater Invisibility (duh)
Dimension Door (long range teleportation for break-ins and getaways)


Note that these are all utility spells, so you'll want to fill in the gaps with some combat spells too.

Very solid list, if I may say. Also:

Level 1: Charm Person (for when someone sees you), Disguise Self (a classic, for some misdirection, Fog Cloud (obscurement is so useful), Grease (to send the city watch sprawling), Silent Image (more illusions are always good).

Level 2: Knock (obvious), Locate Object (I mean, if you want to steal a thing, knowing where the thing is . . . probably useful), Spider Climb (obvious again).

Level 3: Clairvoyance (scouting), Gaseous Form (if you need a getaway, a cloud of gas is hard to stop)

[HermanTheWize]

Very solid list, if I may say. Also:

Level 1: Charm Person (for when someone sees you), Disguise Self (a classic, for some misdirection, Fog Cloud (obscurement is so useful), Grease (to send the city watch sprawling), Silent Image (more illusions are always good).

Level 2: Knock (obvious), Locate Object (I mean, if you want to steal a thing, knowing where the thing is . . . probably useful), Spider Climb (obvious again).

Level 3: Clairvoyance (scouting), Gaseous Form (if you need a getaway, a cloud of gas is hard to stop)

I really like these suggestions, thanks Milkman

[OverLordOcelot]

Don't overlook general utility spells that are also good for you:

1st level: Detect magic (ritual cast it so you don't have to memorize it) helps with finding magical traps and finding magical objects to steal, and of course is useful for regular adventuring. Unseen Servant (also ritual cast) can be used for distraction (put some clothes with a hat or hood on it), to trigger traps that mage hand won't, like having someone walk down a hall, or as part of scams, IMO it's probably the most underrated 1st level spell. Find familiar is IMO best first level spell in the game.

2nd Level: Hold Person is a great combat spell, but is also really useful for dealing with guards and other onlookers. Spider Climb or levitation is good for getting into windows and other elevated areas, I thing spider climb is better for you because of the hour duration, and it's handy on a ship. Darkvision is great if you have human (or halfling etc) companions so that you can all operate without a light source.

3rd level: Hypnotic pattern is a great spell for CC in combat and for covering a getaway if things go south. Nondetection has obvious getaway uses. Gaseous form is good for bypassing doors without opening them.

4th level: Arcane Eye is probably the best 'casing the joint' spell you'll have. Dimension door lets you completely bypass any wall or door that isn't warded against teleportation, and is also a great escape spell.

[HermanTheWize]

I think the hardest part for me is making sure I balance the utility with combat.

I think a good spell is levitate.

Can scale walls using this and help party members do the same.
Make treasure levitate so I can take it a long with me easier and ride it down walls if Im high up (use item as an "elevator").
Send a melee opponent into the air as cc.


I will almost definitely pick that spell.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I'll highlight my top picks for each tier, but I'll also list some of my other choices as I play a wizard now at 7th level and the original concept was a wizard thief. That changed, but I had planned my spells out pretty far in advance.

Cantrips: You get Improved Minor Illusion for free at Level 2, and if you know it you can pick another wizard cantrip for free. It's the best cantrip for Illusionists, and especially thieves. You'll use this probably more than any other spell through the whole campaign, except maybe a damage cantrip. So my top two actual "choices" would be Message and Mage Hand. Follow this up with a damage cantrip of your choice (Firebolt is my personal favorite).

1st Level: You'll have a total of 8 of these from selections. My top two for a thief wizard are Disguise Self and probably Fog Cloud. Maybe that's surprising, but Fog Cloud would be great for escaping or cutting away vision as you sneak in and it covers a large enough area to be widely applicable. Other 6 I'd take are Charm Person, Detect Magic, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Sense Emotion, and Find Familiar.

2nd Level: You get 4 of these. My top two are Invisibility and Knock. Levitate would be highlighted if I could pick 3 and my last would be Suggestion. Spells to search for and scribe might be Find Object, Alter Self, Darkness, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, and Mirror Image are all fantastic.

3rd Level: 4 more spells. Top two: Blink and Major Image followed by Gaseous Form and Fireball (for a getaway nuke if needed). Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Nondetection are all great if scribed!

4th Level: Same story, new characters. Polymorph is worth two spell selections and Dimension Door is close for thieving. I'd also take Greater Invisibility and either Arcane Eye Leomund's Secret Chest (mostly for flavor), or Fabricate to make dummy objects to leave behind in place of what you steal.

Hope that helps! I can explain further ideas if any of them don't make sense to you.

[Azgeroth]

rope trick, sub dimensional invisible hideout for an hour? yes please!

slow, 6 targets, half speed, no reactions. great for a getaway

i wouldn't suggest knock, as its audible for 300ft, so unless you have a ring of spell storing and some one to cast silence, your not doing this in a robbery, or any other stealthy endeavour.

speak to your DM about Glyph of Warding, and illusions.. get creative, great spell.

if you think you might end up in melee, or 60ft, and you hide alot. shadow blade, 2d8 force, with advantage if your in dim light or darkness, ask your DM if the heavy obscurement of fog cloud, counts as either of these.

[HermanTheWize]

I'll highlight my top picks for each tier, but I'll also list some of my other choices as I play a wizard now at 7th level and the original concept was a wizard thief. That changed, but I had planned my spells out pretty far in advance.

Cantrips: You get Improved Minor Illusion for free at Level 2, and if you know it you can pick another wizard cantrip for free. It's the best cantrip for Illusionists, and especially thieves. You'll use this probably more than any other spell through the whole campaign, except maybe a damage cantrip. So my top two actual "choices" would be Message and Mage Hand. Follow this up with a damage cantrip of your choice (Firebolt is my personal favorite).

1st Level: You'll have a total of 8 of these from selections. My top two for a thief wizard are Disguise Self and probably Fog Cloud. Maybe that's surprising, but Fog Cloud would be great for escaping or cutting away vision as you sneak in and it covers a large enough area to be widely applicable. Other 6 I'd take are Charm Person, Detect Magic, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Sense Emotion, and Find Familiar.

2nd Level: You get 4 of these. My top two are Invisibility and Knock. Levitate would be highlighted if I could pick 3 and my last would be Suggestion. Spells to search for and scribe might be Find Object, Alter Self, Darkness, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, and Mirror Image are all fantastic.

3rd Level: 4 more spells. Top two: Blink and Major Image followed by Gaseous Form and Fireball (for a getaway nuke if needed). Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Nondetection are all great if scribed!

4th Level: Same story, new characters. Polymorph is worth two spell selections and Dimension Door is close for thieving. I'd also take Greater Invisibility and either Arcane Eye Leomund's Secret Chest (mostly for flavor), or Fabricate to make dummy objects to leave behind in place of what you steal.

Hope that helps! I can explain further ideas if any of them don't make sense to you.

Wow! Thanks for the detailed response. You make good arguments for your choices.

Also, thanks for the extra spells you would like scribed!

All of these fit my theme pretty well.



rope trick, sub dimensional invisible hideout for an hour? yes please!

slow, 6 targets, half speed, no reactions. great for a getaway

i wouldn't suggest knock, as its audible for 300ft, so unless you have a ring of spell storing and some one to cast silence, your not doing this in a robbery, or any other stealthy endeavour.

speak to your DM about Glyph of Warding, and illusions.. get creative, great spell.

if you think you might end up in melee, or 60ft, and you hide alot. shadow blade, 2d8 force, with advantage if your in dim light or darkness, ask your DM if the heavy obscurement of fog cloud, counts as either of these.

Good point and good suggestion

Glyph of Warding could be very cool and fun, never thought of using it

[HermanTheWize]

Here is the list I am really liking so far, Please critique the choices and help me with the bolded in each spell level:

Know that I am starting at level 1, so make these choices based off knowing that I will start there.

Cantrips(1+ for High Elf and +1 for Illusion School)(Need to Remove 1):
Minor Illusion
Mage Hand
Message
Toll The Dead
Firebolt (In case wisdom saves are high for an enemy and I can't use toll)
Mending
Prestidigitation

Level 1 (Need to remove 1):
Find Familar
Fog Cloud
Detect Magic
Expeditious Retreat
*Ice Knife* - 1 Damage AOE cantrip in case party needs an extra boost or I need to bump up my damage, I think this is the weakest choice.
Silent Image
Unseen Servant
Grease
Disguise Self


Level 2 (Need to remove 2):
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate (Scale walls and help move objects, while also being useful as a combat CC for melee enemies)
Misty Step
Mirror Image
Spider Climb


Level 3 (Need to remove 2):
Fly
Major Image
Fireball
Gaseous Form
Blink
Dispell Magic


Level 4:
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Arcane Eye

[Keravath]

I was also wondering how you are building the character. Will you be taking some levels in rogue for expertise, the skills and cunning action (level 3 for arcane trickster? or possibly swashbuckler?) but mostly being a wizard? Or do you just plan to role play the thief aspect?

I was also wondering what type of wizard you plan to be? Bladesinger meshes fairly well with rogue and pirate from a fluff point of view but you can choose any sort of wizard archetype and make it work.

[RogueJK]

Cantrips:
Prestidigitation would be my choice to drop. It's great flavor, but not vital, and some effects can be replicated with Minor Illusion.
Or, if you really want to keep Prestidigitation, and you have a decent DEX (16/18), then I'd drop Fire Bolt. You can use Toll the Dead as your primary attack cantrip, and use your Elf proficiency with Long Bows to cover those other situations.

Level 1:
I'd drop Unseen Servant. It's somewhat handy, but overlaps with Mage Hand for some things, and it's not vital.
And you'll probably want to try to get your hands on scrolls/spellbooks with the ever-useful Wizard Reaction spells Shield, Absorb Elements, and Feather Fall. They can quite literally save your life.

Level 2:
I'd drop Spider Climb, which overlaps too much with Levitate and Fly (although it does have a significantly longer duration). I'd then likely drop Invisibility, since you already have Greater Invisibility.

Level 3:
This one's tough, but I think I'd drop Gaseous Form, which overlaps with Fly, Levitate, and Dimension Door. And I would likely drop Blink.


And the good news is that, even if you drop these spells at the start, you can always just try to track down scrolls or copy them from another Wizard's spellbook as you go along. (Except for the Cantrip.)


Edit: Ah, I see you added that you're starting at Level 1. That changes things a bit... The above was based on you starting with access to those 1-4th level spells. Some of it still applies, though. In that case, see below for my changes:

Cantrips:
Same

Level 1:
Same

Level 2:
Keep Invisibility, and drop Knock instead.

Level 3:
Even tougher, but I'll stick by my initial thoughts. You won't be able to break into areas you can't see or bypass doors you can't unlock until you pick up Dimension Door at Wizard7 (or track down a scroll/spellbook with Gaseous Form), but you can still Fly/Levitate to access some hard to reach areas. I'd try really hard to find a scroll ASAP, though.

[OverLordOcelot]

I would ditch toll the dead, I don't really like the 'save or damage' cantrips all that much. Prestidigitation is also a possible ditch. I would ditch ice knife out of the level 1s. Would probably try to buy/scribe magic missile at some point, but that one is so common you're really likely to find it in a spell book. I would ditch knock as it's loud, and just make a point of getting proficiency with thief's tools yourself. I would only take one of levitate or spider climb (I would do spider climb, but you seem to like levitate) and pick up shatter (instead of ice knife), it's a much more solid low-level AOE, and is also useful for breaking objects. You also don't really need both fly and levitate, so that influences the 3rd level spell picks. I would ditch gaseous form (it gets redundant with dimension door) and fireball (presuming you do have shatter at L2). You will probably find fireball in a spell book anyway since it's so common.

[HermanTheWize]

I was also wondering how you are building the character. Will you be taking some levels in rogue for expertise, the skills and cunning action (level 3 for arcane trickster? or possibly swashbuckler?) but mostly being a wizard? Or do you just plan to role play the thief aspect?

I was also wondering what type of wizard you plan to be? Bladesinger meshes fairly well with rogue and pirate from a fluff point of view but you can choose any sort of wizard archetype and make it work.

I'm going to be an Illusion School, seems the most thematic for what I want to do.

I hadn't thought of multiclassing into rogue until you said it lol. I should really think about that, expertise would be very nice to get my stealth up even more.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. My party has no stealthers really, though we have a druid who could, so I will be doing all the scouting or will use my familar.





Cantrips:
Prestidigitation would be my choice to drop. It's great flavor, but not vital, and some effects can be replicated with Minor Illusion.
Or, if you really want to keep Prestidigitation, and you have a decent DEX (16/18), then I'd drop Fire Bolt. You can use Toll the Dead as your primary attack cantrip, and use your Elf proficiency with Long Bows to cover those other situations.......

Thanks man.

I sadly only have 14 Dex (still decent), so I'll probably keep firebolt. And also past level 4, using the bow would be a big drop in damage where as firebolt keeps scaling. I think you are right about dropping prestidigitation.

I like the point you make about overlaps, and I can always try to find a way to scribe the spells I am missing out on.

[RogueJK]

I would only take one of levitate or spider climb (I would do spider climb, but you seem to like levitate) You also don't really need both fly and levitate

I agree that there is overlap between Levitate, Spider Climb, and Fly, when it comes to moving around vertically.

However, don't forget that Levitate doubles as a powerful offensive spell, since you can cast it on an enemy. They get one CON saving throw, and if they fail, they're hoisted into the air for up to 10 minutes, with no further saving throws. This can completely remove a melee enemy from the fight, leaving them helplessly hanging in the air, to be ignored until the end of the fight and then picked off at leisure with ranged attacks. And unlike most other ongoing duration debuff/control spells, they get no further saving throws once they fail the first one.

That puts it well above Spider Climb in my book, and still useful even once you get Fly.

[RogueJK]

I hadn't thought of multiclassing into rogue until you said it lol. I should really think about that, expertise would be very nice to get my stealth up even more.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. My party has no stealthers really, though we have a druid who could, so I will be doing all the scouting or will use my familar.

You don't need to take Rogue levels to be an effective Scout and Thief, but it helps, at the cost of slowing down your Wizard progression. You can get Stealth and Thieves Tools from your Background.

However, 1 level of Rogue gets you an extra Skill and Expertise in two skills, which would help boost your Stealth (probably a good idea with your middling DEX). The 1d6 Sneak Attack isn't as useful, since it requires a weapon attack, and doesn't apply to spells.

1 level of Rogue to boost your skills and get Expertise in Stealth and something else like Acrobatics or Thieves Tools won't delay your spell progression that much, and is a sound choice. I'd take the Rogue level as early as possible. If you want spells right away at 1st Level, take it at Level 2, to be a Wizard1/Rogue1, and then go straight Wizard. Or if you can live without spells for 1 level, the best options would be to start as a Rogue1 and then go straight Wizard from there, which nets you one additional class skill (4) over taking Wizard first and then multiclassing into Rogue (2+1), plus it gets you two additional HP (since 1st level HP are maxed and you'd be getting the Rogue's 8 instead of the Wizard's 6). And since you're a High Elf, you'd at least start with one cantrip to use with your 1st Level Rogue character. I'd choose either Minor Illusion, or a ranged attack cantrip since your INT is probably higher than your DEX. But if you do go Rogue1 first, you'll definitely want to pick up the Arcana skill from your background, as you won't have the ability to get it otherwise.

If you decide to go higher than Rogue1, I'd wait until after Wizard5 to take the next two levels, since 3rd Level Spells are real game-changers.

Rogue2 gets you Cunning Action. This isn't as useful to a Wizard as it is to other characters, but can still come in handy for times when you need to both Cast a Spell and Dash/Disengage/Hide in a single round.

Rogue3 gets you 2d6 Sneak Attack (again, not as useful), plus a Rogue Subclass. Arcane Trickster is thematically appropriate, and opens up some shenanigans with Mage Hand, along with a couple additional Cantrips and 3 more 1st Level Spells Known, as well as boosting your caster level by 1 to open up more Spell Slots. (Although not more high level spells known.)

I definitely wouldn't go higher than Rogue3, no matter what. And even Rogue3 would be problematic. At that point, you'd be a Wizard5/Rogue3, with Cunning Action, greater Mage Hand utility, and more options for cantrips and 1st level spells. However, a Wizard7/Rogue1 or a Wizard8 would have 4th level spells, and a Wizard8 would already have a second ASI and be coming up on 5th level spells. 4th level spells beat out the benefits gained from Rogue2 and Rogue3, IMO. So I think dipping Rogue for 3 levels wouldn't really be worth it in the long run for this Wizard. Go either straight Wizard with just some thief stuff from your Background, or go only 1 level of Rogue, preferably at Level 1.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Cantrips(1+ for High Elf and +1 for Illusion School)(Need to Remove 1):
Minor Illusion
Mage Hand
Message
Toll The Dead This would be my second choice to remove because IME it's less consistent than Firebolt and you don't need two damage cantrips. Ultimately just decide if Prestidigitation is worth it to you or not.
Firebolt (In case wisdom saves are high for an enemy and I can't use toll)
Mending
Prestidigitation I'd ditch this one as it overlaps a fair amount with Improved Minor Illusion.

Level 1 (Need to remove 1):
Find Familar
Fog Cloud
Detect Magic
Expeditious Retreat
*Ice Knife* - 1 Damage AOE cantrip in case party needs an extra boost or I need to bump up my damage, I think this is the weakest choice. Agreed. Ditch Ice Knife and try to scribe Magic Missile at some point.
Silent Image Check with your DM about whether Minor Illusion can be a "moving object" or if it has to be stationary. Also see if you could center it on a point, like giving someone an illusory cape for instance. If both those things are cool, this is a bit redundant. If neither of those things are cool, you should definitely take this.
Unseen Servant Rogue JK's points about Unseen Servant are good. I'd consider dropping it in favor of either Charm Person or Sense Emotion. My reasoning for Sense Emotion is that you can use it to manipulate someone into letting you in or becoming friends without them knowing you're using magic on them. Knowing someone's prevailing emotional state is a great piece of information for a con artist/thief.
Grease
Disguise Self


Level 2 (Need to remove 2): I still think Suggestion should be here for any wizard ever. It's one of the best pound-for-slot spells in the game. If you go for it then I'd drop Misty Step since it overlaps with Dimension Door and some others, or Mirror Image if you really like the Bonus Action usage from Misty Step.
Invisibility
Knock Ultimately I agree that I'd try to scribe this instead, especially if you dip Rogue and get Expertise w/thieves' tools. You should do that while we're on the topic, haha. Even a one level dip would be great, but you could justify up to 3ish.
Levitate (Scale walls and help move objects, while also being useful as a combat CC for melee enemies)
Misty Step
Mirror Image
Spider Climb This would be the first to go from my list. It overlaps with Levitate and Polymorph literally lets you become a spider once you get 4th level spells. There are just too many other options that do something equivalent plus something extra, even if you get more time with this one.


Level 3 (Need to remove 2):
Fly I don't have fly. I've never missed fly. I use Levitate and Polymorph to completely subvert the need for this spell.
Major Image
Fireball
Gaseous Form
Blink
Dispell Magic I'd also get rid of this and try to scribe it. It should be common enough. But Gaseous Form and Blink would also be okay choices to try to scribe later. Ultimately this is probably more preference.


Level 4:
Dimension Door
Greater Invisibility
Polymorph
Arcane Eye

My edits/recommendations are in red above.


I'm going to be an Illusion School, seems the most thematic for what I want to do.

I hadn't thought of multiclassing into rogue until you said it lol. I should really think about that, expertise would be very nice to get my stealth up even more.

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. My party has no stealthers really, though we have a druid who could, so I will be doing all the scouting or will use my familar.

If you take a level or more in Rogue then I'd encourage expertise in stealth and thieves' tools. If you go far enough to get more expertise I'd put it in persuasion and sleight of hand. It's a really good idea to at least pick up that first level or two, but going beyond that you'll start giving up a lot/getting way behind in spell progression. That last bit is the hardest pill to swallow when you multiclass into a martial with a Wizard.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I definitely wouldn't go higher than Rogue3, no matter what. And even Rogue3 would be problematic. At that point, you'd be a Wizard5/Rogue3, with Cunning Action, greater Mage Hand utility, and more options for cantrips and 1st level spells. However, a Wizard7/Rogue1 or a Wizard8 would have 4th level spells, and a Wizard8 would already have a second ASI and be coming up on 5th level spells. 4th level spells beat out the benefits gained from Rogue2 and Rogue3, IMO. So I think dipping Rogue for 3 levels wouldn't really be worth it in the long run for this Wizard. Go either straight Wizard with just some thief stuff from your Background, or go only 1 level of Rogue, preferably at Level 1.

I agree with this entire assessment, especially that last line. You could definitely do more than the first level, but is it worth it? Probably not from an optimization standpoint based on the role you want to play in the party.

As a supporting argument, you really do want to get Polymorph ASAP as a wizard and especially a thief. It covers over so many gaps in your spell list and should always be prepared. Grab the McGuffin and polymorph into a mosquito or a hawk or a lizard or a fish or a cheetah or a (insert appropriate and fast/stealthy animal here). Also use it in the same way to infiltrate whatever you're trying to steal. It's great as a "quick heal" if you or a teammate goes low. Maybe check with your DM though about what forms they'd allow you to take on yourself and still maintain concentration.

[HermanTheWize]

My edits/recommendations are in red above....

...hat last bit is the hardest pill to swallow when you multiclass into a martial with a Wizard.


I agree with this entire assessment, especially that last line. You could definitely do more than the first level, but is it worth it? Probably not from an optimization standpoint based on the role you want to play in the party.

As a supporting argument, you really do want to get Polymorph ASAP as a wizard and especially a thief. It covers over so many gaps in your spell list and should always be prepared. Grab the McGuffin and polymorph into a mosquito or a hawk or a lizard or a fish or a cheetah or a (insert appropriate and fast/stealthy animal here). Also use it in the same way to infiltrate whatever you're trying to steal. It's great as a "quick heal" if you or a teammate goes low. Maybe check with your DM though about what forms they'd allow you to take on yourself and still maintain concentration.

I think with smart playing, I don't need the expertise bonus that seems so nice (why brute force do something when I have the intelligence and spells to back it up).

Thanks guys for your point of view

[RogueJK]

I think with smart playing, I don't need the expertise bonus that seems so nice (why brute force do something when I have the intelligence and spells to back it up).


Careful. Even if you're Invisible or obscured by a Fog Cloud, you'll still need a good Stealth bonus, as you'll still have to actively Hide (i.e. roll for Stealth) in order to not be perceived through other means, such as being heard, noticing your footprints/tracks, etc.

Invisibility just means you're automatically Heavily Obscured and can't be seen. Not that you're automatically Stealthed/Hidden. Therefore, I personally think Expertise on Stealth, plus the other 1st level bonuses, are worth you delaying spell progression by 1 level. Especially since you only have a 14 DEX.

If you want to boost your Stealth through spells, as you mentioned doing, you'd have to rely on assistance from your party Druid with either Guidance (+1d4 bonus to your Stealth roll), Enhance Ability - Cat's Grace (Advantage on Stealth checks), or the amazing Pass Without Trace (+10 to your Stealth roll and you leave no tracks). None of which are spells you can learn and cast yourself.

You could, however, conceivably generate Advantage for your Stealth roll yourself. This would entail something like using Minor Illusion to create a distracting image or loud noise elsewhere, or having your Familiar Help you with your Stealth roll by doing something like being obnoxious and making a bunch of noise to attract attention to itself instead of you. (My Arcane Trickster Rogue uses his Owl familiar as a distraction in certain situations.) But these are dependent on your DM playing along, and likely wouldn't work in every situation where you need to be Stealthy.

[HermanTheWize]

Careful. Even if you're Invisible or obscured by a Fog Cloud, you'll still need a good Stealth bonus, as you'll still have to actively Hide (i.e. roll for Stealth) in order to not be perceived through other means, such as being heard, noticing your footprints/tracks, etc.....

If you want to boost your Stealth through spells, as you mentioned doing, you'd have to rely on assistance from your party Druid with either Guidance (+1d4 bonus to your Stealth roll), Enhance Ability - Cat's Grace (Advantage on Stealth checks), or the amazing Pass Without Trace (+10 to your Stealth roll and you leave no tracks). None of which are spells you can learn and cast yourself......


All good points, I'll make sure I'm still hiding when using the abilities.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I think with smart playing, I don't need the expertise bonus that seems so nice (why brute force do something when I have the intelligence and spells to back it up).

Thanks guys for your point of view

Thematically I do like the idea of going straight Wizard the best. That’s what my plan was even though I knew that taking 1 level in Rogue would be really helpful. You should have a blast! Pun intended. Let us know how it goes if you play soon.

[HermanTheWize]

Thematically I do like the idea of going straight Wizard the best. That’s what my plan was even though I knew that taking 1 level in Rogue would be really helpful. You should have a blast! Pun intended. Let us know how it goes if you play soon.

Will be playing Saturday, will update you guys on how it goes.

Thanks for the replies, they were all very thoughtful.

Got a lot of good info here.

[HermanTheWize]

I was having thoughts about Hypnotic Pattern for a 3rd level spell.

Great for combat mass CC
If I'm running away from people after stealing something it is also good.
Easily placed to not hit buddies