Tanking lore bard?

[alexfitzrose]

Long story as short as I can make it: I just started a new PHB (with some reskins and a few significant restrictions like no multiclassing, more as relevant) campaign with 5 new-to-D&D players and we rolled for our level 5 characters on Sunday. Well, the party (including a divination wizard and a thief rogue) looks OK except that I'm not sure the halfling barbarian (with 10 CON and probabaly going frenzy) and the ranger (good stats but took the archery fighting style) will be able to hold the frontlines... (there is a druid but how do you explain "HP tanking through wildshape changing" and all the mechanics to a first time player?)

I rolled really well - 16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 13 - but we are playing only human (normal), elf, dwarf, halfling, and half-elf WITHOUT feats (no sorcerer or warlock classes either). At first I wanted to go controller lore bard and create a really powerful PC that can guide the group without dominating play but the more I thought about it our group would get wiped pretty easily by any encounter of 3 or 4 or more enemies or even just a couple of enemies played with a semblance of a strategy. 3 full spellcasters plus rogue, ranger and barbarian may not balanced enough in terms of roles.

Then I looked into more MAD builds like paladin (without feats I don't think it would works as I want) and Eldritch Knight (no Warcaster which probably means 2handed weapon STR build, unless I can charm my DM into, uh, hand-waving somatic components) which can be done really well with my stats. But before I sit down at the next session where we will begin actual play, I wanted to see if anyone had any ideas for a "tanking" bard. Would I need to switch to Valor bard for armor and weapon profs or is that a trap since that would still be behind a full plate EK and I lose early Magical Secrets (next level since we start at 5)? Would I dare use MS on shield (only a level 1 spells) or should I really take one of the more powerful options like fireball or counterspell even if they don't help tank?

I know thats a lot of info but still only the tip of the iceberg so I will try to answer y'alls questions too. I'm really just looking for any kind of practical advice considering those restrictions but also wanting to support these new players the best way possible, esepcially considering I will be bringing the most experience to the most mechanically (with those starting stats) PC at the table. Thanks!

[Man_Over_Game]

These are actually some really solid points you make.

At first, Abjuration Wizard was the go-to solution for a utility-based protecting caster, but the team already has an Intelligence-based caster.
Then, Druid of the Land (going Arctic) was another option that would have a lot of control, but your team already has a Druid.
It has no Charisma-based character so far, so that's probably the best route to go.

Paladin's an option, but your team is a bit light on magic as-is, with no healer or damage mitigation.

I would strongly recommend Valor as the option of choice here. That Barbarian is incredibly squishy, and so he'll probably have to resort to using Hit Die pretty often. The Ranger doesn't have any tricks, and likely won't tank, thinking that the Ranger was designed as an archer (because that's what a lot of noobs think). Check to see whether the Druid went Moon Druid or not, because that will decide on the course of action.

Your Divination Wizard should definitely pick up Counterspell or Dispel Magic when they can. At the very minimum, the melee combatants of your team can hold the line while you cast magic as a full caster, but the alternative will be a lot worse if you can't take a hit or two. Don't forget that you can always put away your weapon each turn for free as an Object Interaction, and you're not likely going to need a weapon drawn and to cast a spell in the same turn, so the whole "component casting" problem isn't as big of a deal as most people say it is. Those people usually are trying to use a weapon cantrip from the Sword Coast books, and so the whole component problem isn't relevant without those spells. The one catch is that you might not have a scary Opportunity Attack against enemies running past you during turns when you cast a major spell (and have no weapon drawn), so just try to cast most of your spells before you need to maintain the line.

[CTurbo]

I think a Paladin is exactly what your party needs. Why do you think it wouldn't work without feats? I played a Paladin without feats and it was awesome. 20 Str, 18 Con, and 20 Cha is damn near OP.

So yeah I'd go Pally all the way. Choose an Oath that interests you and roll with it. Just go Sword and Board and either Dueling or Defense and you'll be great.


Valor Bard would be the second option here IMO

[FirstBornSon]

Tanking, buffing, keeping fellow party mambers alive sounds like a job for a cleric. Maintaining concentration seems lika a only problem without feats (ressiliant or warcaster) but with 16 in con (or 18 if dwarf) you will be fine. Other option is divine soul sorcerer for con proficency and taking mountin dwarf for medium armor proficiency but than you will have no shield and little hp but a lot of options (shield spell, bless, fireball, spirit guardians)

[BobZan]

It's possible to build towards a 'tanking' lore bard. Without feats you'd need Multiclass. Fighter or Paladin. MS you can go for Shield and Aid.

Fighter 1/Bard x
Paladin 2/Bard x

Else, I'd recommend Ancients Paladin. Very tough and great dpr.

[iTreeby]

The nice thing about lore bard is that you can snip spells from other lists but I don't feel like building a tank is the best use of magical secrets. A paladin is a much better "tank", there really isn't a way to "tank" in this edition but paladin does the job well, it's an unignorable threat that can't be put down easily. Using auras to buff the party while having heavy armor is quite "tanky".

[Man_Over_Game]

[...]there really isn't a way to "tank" in this edition[...]

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, Cavalier Fighter and the Crown Paladin all have means of effectively "taunting" a creature into fighting you, and two of those (Cavalier, Ancestral Guardian) do not require any kind of saving throws (making them incredibly reliable).

As for burst survivability, Shield and Absorb Elements do a wonderful job at making someone nigh invulnerable for a cheap price.

Lastly, something like Sentinel will make sure that even if you deal low damage, you cannot be ignored.

[iTreeby]

Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, Cavalier Fighter and the Crown Paladin all have means of effectively "taunting" a creature into fighting you, and two of those (Cavalier, Ancestral Guardian) do not require any kind of saving throws (making them incredibly reliable).

As for burst survivability, Shield and Absorb Elements do a wonderful job at making someone nigh invulnerable for a cheap price.

Lastly, something like Sentinel will make sure that even if you deal low damage, you cannot be ignored.

Yeah but the op wants phb only no feats no Multiclassing soo

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah but the op wants phb only no feats no Multiclassing soo

I guess I mean that there are options in this edition, but some of them are not in the core book, some of them require specific spells (and so require specific classes), and some of them require feats.

They're not all applicable to the player's situation, but there are definitely tanking options in this edition.

[jaappleton]

First, some facts about 5th Edition D&D...

1. Its better to prevent damage than to heal after the fact.

That's it. And that's an incredibly important fact.

That being said, its possible that a Controller is a better thing to have than a Tank.

Enemies are often put into one of four categories: Glass cannon, High HP but low AC, or decent AC and decently powerful, or fodder. And really... Some may disagree, but I think if you're smart with your tactics, you can get through anything.

So what's better? Having high AC as a Tank, or rendering most of an enemy party useless due to one casting of Hypnotic Pattern? Having high AC, or using Cutting Words to turn an enemy attack into a miss? Your AC helps YOU, and only YOU.

Controlling helps the entire party.

[Willie the Duck]

Hill or Mountain Dwarf cleric (war, life, or forge) would be a good addition to this party. Not what you want to play, mind you, but good.

[PeteNutButter]

First, some facts about 5th Edition D&D...

1. Its better to prevent damage than to heal after the fact.

That's it. And that's an incredibly important fact.

That being said, its possible that a Controller is a better thing to have than a Tank.

Enemies are often put into one of four categories: Glass cannon, High HP but low AC, or decent AC and decently powerful, or fodder. And really... Some may disagree, but I think if you're smart with your tactics, you can get through anything.

So what's better? Having high AC as a Tank, or rendering most of an enemy party useless due to one casting of Hypnotic Pattern? Having high AC, or using Cutting Words to turn an enemy attack into a miss? Your AC helps YOU, and only YOU.

Controlling helps the entire party.

I'm with jaappleton on this one. Just play a regular bard. Buff the team and control the enemy.

With your stats starting past the first ASI you'll have a 20 cha (half-elf). If you want to keep your barbarian alive just cast Heroism and give him 5 THP a round. It's actually a fairly potent spell as far as buffs go, especially on barbarians as every round, the raging barbarian can absorb up to 10 (or more damage due to rounding) damage without actually taking any hp damage.

Honestly though, the best play in big fights is to slap enemy groups with hypnotic pattern DC 16. Enemies either waste rounds rousing their buddies or you greatly reduce the number of foes. Spells like that are encounter winners.

[iTreeby]

So what's better? Having high AC as a Tank, or rendering most of an enemy party useless due to one casting of Hypnotic Pattern? Having high AC, or using Cutting Words to turn an enemy attack into a miss? Your AC helps YOU, and only YOU.

Controlling helps the entire party.

I agree for the most part with this sentiment. When you fight monsters with legendary resistances, high saves, high numbers, or ambush tactics, it can be nice to have an aura buff held by a tough to disrupt paladin.

At the same time if you want to control the battlefield, realize that to some extent any concentration spell will put a target on your head so spells like shield and absorb elements are very useful in that context.

[Willie the Duck]

First, some facts about 5th Edition D&D...
1. Its better to prevent damage than to heal after the fact.
...
Controlling helps the entire party.

I'm with jaappleton on this one. Just play a regular bard. Buff the team and control the enemy.

These are general truths, but the simplicity of the situation stops when you don't have enough heavies to be a front line, and everyone ends up spending their actions and spells running around trying not to get hit. A tank with a high AC and HP becomes better than a controller with Hypnotic Pattern once the Hypnotic Pattern only lasts a round before the 1-2 remaining opponents snipe the caster enough to make them fail their concentration.

Not saying that a tank would be better in this situation, only that the solution (like most) is not quite so simple.

[JackPhoenix]

Tempest cleric. Reasonably tough (with d8 HD + 18 Con if you pick a dwarf, plus heavy armor and shield, not to mention spells) and decent in melee, as all clerics, good at supporting the party (it seems they'll need a healer), and tempest even have some offensive magic. You can't do everything at once, of course, but I think for this party it's better pick than bard. Still missing Cha character, but that's not that bad, and at least you won't take the spotlight from new players during social situations.

[PeteNutButter]

These are general truths, but the simplicity of the situation stops when you don't have enough heavies to be a front line, and everyone ends up spending their actions and spells running around trying not to get hit. A tank with a high AC and HP becomes better than a controller with Hypnotic Pattern once the Hypnotic Pattern only lasts a round before the 1-2 remaining opponents snipe the caster enough to make them fail their concentration.

Not saying that a tank would be better in this situation, only that the solution (like most) is not quite so simple.

That's entirely true, but I was comparing that vs the attempt to tank as a lore bard (or any bard). If the OP wants to be hard to kill they are better off being the paladin. In other words, my advice was intended to be a bit like "stay in your lane" or "do what you're good at."

[alexfitzrose]

So what's better? Having high AC as a Tank, or rendering most of an enemy party useless due to one casting of Hypnotic Pattern? Having high AC, or using Cutting Words to turn an enemy attack into a miss? Your AC helps YOU, and only YOU.

Controlling helps the entire party.

This really resonates (as well as calls for cleric, but I just played one for months and want to go another route, like using CHA) and I am tempting to be a backline tank as someone who can draw fire by the impact of my spells on the enemy. I guess I am really hamstrung by the no multiclass/ no feats/ no +1 book restrictions because all the things I read on this great site often include them.

If i leave counterspell and fireball to the wizard should I steal Shield as a last resort when directly targeted?

Please keep suggestions coming (as I love checking in every so often anyways) and in the meantime I'll see if my DM will grant me some special leniency as the most exerienced player, especially since I'm not trying to hog the spotlight but rather keep the fun flowing.

Ps. Someone mentioned half-elf as I can't go Vuman, but since we are starting at level 5 I feel like 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14 (+1 to all at level 1 and then +1/+1 at 4) is tooooooo good, but I'll listen to thoughts about race as well

[stoutstien]

Aid is a spell that may be worth a magic secret if you go bard and it is on the cleric/pally list also.
It stacks with thp
Rare non concentration buff that can last all day
it a fairly cheap at a lv 2 slot

[solidork]

One thing that people haven't mentioned is taking Conjure Animals as one of your magical secrets. It's kinda cheesy, and you'll have to negotiate with your DM about how it works at your table, but it's very effective at taking up space on the battlefield and absorbing damage.

[iTreeby]

Ps. Someone mentioned half-elf as I can't go Vuman, but since we are starting at level 5 I feel like 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14 (+1 to all at level 1 and then +1/+1 at 4) is tooooooo good, but I'll listen to thoughts about race as well


Since you already have at least one party member without dark vision, it does not hurt you too much to not have it, it's a shame though because it looks like the party might actually be fairly stealthy otherwise (it looks like no one has heavy armor) if you feel like you need to have good scores in every stat, human is the way to do it but from an optimization standpoint, that may not be necessary. Having decent stats all around does combo with Jack of all trades meaning that you can cover all the skill gaps of the party sortof. For a Cha based character, half elf is basically a dream race.

Personally I like the gnome cunning ability so much that I am tempted to take it any time I roll a bard ( just because of the slim chance I get to use it with magic secret magic jar which is generally regarded as a bad idea).

[Corran]

People make good arguments about adding a spellcaster with good control (edit: or summoning) options to the mix, but seeing the party (wizard, rogue, ranger archer, barbarian with low con), I think I would like to play someone up front, so that I can take some of the pressure off the barbarian. (Conjuration and necromancy wizard are also options, though you already have a wizard, and while this is a benefit, I can understand why you might not want to play a class someone else is already playing).

The tricky part is that you cannot take feats. That means, that if you play any class that relies first and foremost on spells (like bards do) as a frontliner, you are going to have a problem. That's because you wont be able to boost concentration. So playing a spellcaster (bard, cleric, etc) as a frontliner, means that either you will drop concentration very often, or that you will have to rely mostly on non concentration spells. And however I try to see this, I personally don't like it.

That's why I would either play a frontliner without spells (and since you already have a barbarian, that limits you to pick fighter, which does not excite me much in a featless game), or I would play a paladin.

Paladin because, due to aura of protection (and due to your good rolls), you will have less of an issue maintaining conrecentration (even less of an issue when you are concentrating on bless). Moreover, lay on hands, aid, (and later on aura of vitality perhaps) is going to work well on your barbarian (due to rage resistance, the barb is usually mostly an HP tank than an AC one), whom you might have to babysit a bit (again, due to their low con score). I would probably pick devotion, for aura of warding and sanctuary (the latter is going to be very useful given that the majority of your party are squishies). On a last note, paladins can indeed make good use of various feats, but they are not that badly hurt if you are not allowed feats. Being MAD means that you can make good use of many ability bumps (I'd pick halfelf -despite the minor redundancy between aura of warding and elven ancestry-, STR 17, DEX 15, CON 17, INT 13, WIS 13, CHA 18, or.... STR 13, DEX 17, CON 17, INT 13, WIS 15, CHA 18. I'd use my first ASI to boost both CON and my attack stat by 1, thus rounding them to a nice even number; though with these stats, any race wont be far worse).

[jaappleton]

For Magical Secrets at lv6, I suggest Shield and Counterspell.

Yes, the Wizard will already have it. But rolling a 2 is rolling a 2. Its well within the realm of possibility.

And as a Bard, I do believe your Jack of All Trades skill DOES apply to the ability check required by Counterspell.

[OverLordOcelot]

(there is a druid but how do you explain "HP tanking through wildshape changing" and all the mechanics to a first time player?)

If the druid is a moon druid then they need to figure out how to use wildshape or they're wasting their subclass. If they are a moon druid you have tanking covered and should help them use their wild shapes for tanking (Which is mostly a matter of printing off the best wild shapes that they can use). If they're not a moon druid, at 5th level they have conjure animals which can handle tanking for the party. (A moon druid with feats can do both, but without feats I wouldn't expect to fight in wild shape and keep concentration spells going).

I think that a lower-HP barbarian and druid should be able to put a lot of meat in the front line. If you really want to tank then go for a paladin or fighter, but I think a more conventional bard that buffs the barbarian's HP will give you enough front-line fighting ability.


Paladin's an option, but your team is a bit light on magic as-is, with no healer or damage mitigation.

I wouldn't call diviner wizard (full caster), druid (full caster), Ranger (1/3 caster) rogue and barbarian 'light on magic' or 'with no healer'. If by 'light on magic' you mean something like 'not everyone is a spellcaster', I'd say that's a bit excessive. This setup has bonus action heals and OOC healing covered, and you don't need a specialized in-combat healer for 5e.

[Keravath]

Clerics in plate armor with a shield can be good tanks, decent at melee and very good party support characters as well. They get spirit guardians at 5th level and having healing word is essential to keeping the barbarian in the game.

On the other hand, a level 5 bard has hypnotic pattern already which can be a game changer in many combats and he also has healing word. The lore bard is also amazing at social interaction and the skills aspects of the game. Your party doesn't actually have a party face and if you went half-elf you will start with 20 charisma (18 at 1 and CHA ASI since you mentioned no feats) if you like and extra skills.

Finally, if your DM is decent then you don't actually NEED to have an optimized party to do well and have fun. The DM should adjust the encounters somewhat for the party.

Also, I would have hoped that the DM would have helped your fellow players make characters so as to avoid situations like a barbarian with 10 constitution. Unless they just rolled really badly ... in which case the DM might want to consider allowing them to use point buy or standard array instead.

By the way, with those dice rolls, a half-elf paladin will likely work amazingly well. You will either have 18 strength or 20 charisma at level 4 which will translate into being quite effective hitting things or an amazing +5 to saves from your aura at level 6. You will also have lay on hands, ability to use heavy armor and with your stats you can make your dexterity high enough that using a bow for ranged damage is feasible.

The following would be very good at level 5 in heavy armor - 3 x 18's !

Option 1 / ASI (combat)
Str 16 +1 +1 18
Dex 15 15
Con 16 +1 +1 18
Int 13 13
Wis 13 13
Cha 16 +2 18

Or Option 2 / ASI (saves)
Str 16 16
Dex 15 +1 16
Con 16 16
Int 13 13
Wis 13 +1 14
Cha 16 +2 +2 20

I kind of like option 1 but both are good and would certainly be able to take a front line roll - especially option 1. Keep in mind that it might not be as powerful as it would be with feats but in a game with no feats and no multiclassing it will be an awesome character (though not the back row support you were originally envisaging). Your aura is likely to help your party a lot and if you go oath of vengeance (since PHB only) you'll also have hunter's mark if you want to do extra damage (plus smites and other features).

On the other hand, the control abilities of a lore bard are encounter changing.

[PeteNutButter]

Ps. Someone mentioned half-elf as I can't go Vuman, but since we are starting at level 5 I feel like 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14 (+1 to all at level 1 and then +1/+1 at 4) is tooooooo good, but I'll listen to thoughts about race as well

Due to the nature of 5e, having a bunch of good stats is generally not as effective as having a couple really good ones. Characters by and large can only add one stat at a time to their attack and damage or spell save DC. While other characters can usually fill in the areas where yours isn't as effective.

In this particular instance, the human nets you +1 more con mod (great for saves and hp), +1 to other saves (mostly just wisdom), and +1 to a few different skills.

The Half Elf (13, 16, 17, 13, 16, 20) nets you +1 to your spell save DC (your main contribution), +1 to your best skills, +2 more skill proficiencies, +25% more Bardic Inspiration uses, as well as +1 to spell attack rolls (should that come up through magical secrets), and darkvision.

I'd say the half-elf is better, but you aren't going to be behind with those stats either way. The game assumes you to have no more than an 18 by that level so, play what you like.

[Man_Over_Game]

Due to the nature of 5e, having a bunch of good stats is generally not as effective as having a couple really good ones. Characters by and large can only add one stat at a time to their attack and damage or spell save DC. While other characters can usually fill in the areas where yours isn't as effective.

In this particular instance, the human nets you +1 more con mod (great for saves and hp), +1 to other saves (mostly just wisdom), and +1 to a few different skills.

The Half Elf (13, 16, 17, 13, 16, 20) nets you +1 to your spell save DC (your main contribution), +1 to your best skills, +2 more skill proficiencies, +25% more Bardic Inspiration uses, as well as +1 to spell attack rolls (should that come up through magical secrets), and darkvision.

I'd say the half-elf is better, but you aren't going to be behind with those stats either way. The game assumes you to have no more than an 18 by that level so, play what you like.

To add on to what PNB said, having a balanced spread of stats (like the one you proposed) is best used for multiclassing (as multiclassing requires 13 in the required stats), or to fuel multiple main abilities from multiple classes.

For example, an Eldritch Knight does quite well with having an ample supply of low level, rechargeable spell slots provided by a Warlock level or two, but usually cannot afford the requirement of having Constitution, Dexterity/Strength, and Intelligence for its primary class and still afford a 13 into Charisma to get the Warlock multiclass on top of it.

[Keravath]

This really resonates (as well as calls for cleric, but I just played one for months and want to go another route, like using CHA) and I am tempting to be a backline tank as someone who can draw fire by the impact of my spells on the enemy. I guess I am really hamstrung by the no multiclass/ no feats/ no +1 book restrictions because all the things I read on this great site often include them.

If i leave counterspell and fireball to the wizard should I steal Shield as a last resort when directly targeted?

Please keep suggestions coming (as I love checking in every so often anyways) and in the meantime I'll see if my DM will grant me some special leniency as the most exerienced player, especially since I'm not trying to hog the spotlight but rather keep the fun flowing.

Ps. Someone mentioned half-elf as I can't go Vuman, but since we are starting at level 5 I feel like 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14 (+1 to all at level 1 and then +1/+1 at 4) is tooooooo good, but I'll listen to thoughts about race as well

I'd suggest NOT leaving counterspell entirely to the wizard. Bards get to add 1/2 their proficiency to the die rolls for counterspell since they are skill/ability checks and jack of all trades applies. This makes the bard actually significantly better at counterspell than most other classes.

Other magical secrets choices are very challenging. My Bard in AL took fireball and counterspell since in adventurers league you never know the capabilities of the characters who might be in a particular adventure. In that case, flexibility and adaptability are both very important.

In your case, I would probably still take counterspell ... but the other choice is more challenging.

If you go valor bard you won't get the level 6 magical secrets but you will be able to have both medium armor and a shield which will significantly increase your armor class. Extra attack will give you some melee capability at 6th level ... but your primary role will still likely be spell caster and if you are concentrating on a spell you do NOT want to be in the front row. A bard concentrating on hypnotic pattern which breaks because they take damage in melee can result in a TPK depending on how many enemies the bard had under control.

[CTurbo]

Seriously with stats like these 16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 13 I'd go Paladin all the way and never look back. I'd probably take Defense for the +1 AC

Human starting level 5 with 18 Str, 16 Dex, 17 Con, 14 Int, 14 Wis, 18 Cha

or

Half-Elf starting level 5 with 18 Str, 15 Dex, 18 Con, 13 Int, 13 Wis, 18 Cha

No reason you could flip Str for Dex and make a Dex Pally if you want a more stealthy approach.

As far as Oaths, I'd probably go for Ancients as it's the most defensive, but Devotion would be really tempting with stats like that.

[Rukelnikov]

So you want a Lore Bard "tank" with the following restrictions:


PHB only
No multiclass
No feats
Only human (normal), elf, dwarf, halfling, and half-elf


You could go mountain dwarf for the "combat" stats (18 Str, Con and Cha including racials and ASI)and medium armor, if at 6 you get Find Steed and Agathys you will susbtantially increase the amount of front line damage soak of your party, just remember to cast Agathys before dismounting and let the steed fight independently. Lvl 13+ the effort/return of this will be rather small unless you invest extra resources on improving the steed (Notice that the horse CAN equip plate to get 18 AC)

Later on Aid can help you (and the steed) hold the line a lil better without compromising your concentration.

Warding bond help you keep a squishy alive longer even if enemies ignore you in combat.

Tbh it would probably be better to go Valor for a front line Bard with these restrictions, you wouldn't need mountain dwarf and could go half-elf.

[Son of A Lich!]

I know this isn't really on the table in the discussion yet, but seeing the stellar range of your abilities scores and starting at level 5...

Have you considered monk?

I don't know your DM, but if I have a party that is void of Dispell Magic or Remove Curse like spells, I don't use Curses. If I do use curses, I have an NPC that is near by that they can use and he doubles as a plot hook (I'll clear this curse, IF you take care of the giant rats in the sewer).

So, I wouldn't worry about the lack of arcane in the party (in fact, it's pretty nice to not have too many arcanists in the party, from my side of the screen).

But a monk with maxed Con, Wis and Dex is a beast in combat. The slow progression of Ki is what always keeps me from wanting to start a Monk at level 1, but you'll have 5 to play with from the get go. You'll also have amble opportunity to stunning fist (Which is clutch in a variety of scenarios) and the mobility of monks is mind blowing at times.

Hell, you could even pull off 4 elements and have fun most of us wouldn't dream of with these scores (If you are really dying for spell casting like abilities).

Just my two copper.

[CTurbo]

I know this isn't really on the table in the discussion yet, but seeing the stellar range of your abilities scores and starting at level 5...

Have you considered monk?

I don't know your DM, but if I have a party that is void of Dispell Magic or Remove Curse like spells, I don't use Curses. If I do use curses, I have an NPC that is near by that they can use and he doubles as a plot hook (I'll clear this curse, IF you take care of the giant rats in the sewer).

So, I wouldn't worry about the lack of arcane in the party (in fact, it's pretty nice to not have too many arcanists in the party, from my side of the screen).

But a monk with maxed Con, Wis and Dex is a beast in combat. The slow progression of Ki is what always keeps me from wanting to start a Monk at level 1, but you'll have 5 to play with from the get go. You'll also have amble opportunity to stunning fist (Which is clutch in a variety of scenarios) and the mobility of monks is mind blowing at times.

Hell, you could even pull off 4 elements and have fun most of us wouldn't dream of with these scores (If you are really dying for spell casting like abilities).

Just my two copper.

I can't help but to agree with this. I still think Paladin has the MOST to offer, but having also played a 20 Dex, 18 Con, 20 Wis Long Death Monk, I can concur that they are indeed a complete beast in combat. They offer little outside of combat and perception though.

[jaappleton]

I can't help but to agree with this. I still think Paladin has the MOST to offer, but having also played a 20 Dex, 18 Con, 20 Wis Long Death Monk, I can concur that they are indeed a complete beast in combat. They offer little outside of combat and perception though.

Also, the mobility of a Tabaxi Monk is utterly INSANE. I know this scenario is PHB only but DAMN is it crazy.

[CTurbo]

Also, the mobility of a Tabaxi Monk is utterly INSANE. I know this scenario is PHB only but DAMN is it crazy.

Yep Tabaxi is on my short list of Monks I want to play along with Aarakocra

[Son of A Lich!]

Oh, I've always wanted to play a Goblin Monk, myself yeah?

Fury of the small and free disengage/hide? And racials to Dex? Sign me up.

The only problem with Monks in this edition is Ki being keyed to specifically Monk levels. But honestly, I think they'd be broken any other way.

[alexfitzrose]

OK, we sit down tomorrow for our first day of playing these characters and here is what I've figured out:

Paladin 2/ Lore bard 3 to start, going to PAL 6 (Devotion) then Bard the rest of the way. I know not hitting 5 in a level first is my optimal but who knows how far we will get so I want the feel of my character (tank with cutting words and lay on hands)

So now I'm looking into Dex builds and need some help with my attributes (16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 13- first world problems, I know) as a halfelf. Something like:

STR 13 Dex 16 CON 16 INT 13 WIS 15 CHA 16 (+2)

but where should I put the +1s?

Round out STR and WIS (athletics and perception, though expertise adds more) or just start adding to Dex and CON so I can eventually get them to 18?

[CTurbo]

OK, we sit down tomorrow for our first day of playing these characters and here is what I've figured out:

Paladin 2/ Lore bard 3 to start, going to PAL 6 (Devotion) then Bard the rest of the way. I know not hitting 5 in a level first is my optimal but who knows how far we will get so I want the feel of my character (tank with cutting words and lay on hands)

So now I'm looking into Dex builds and need some help with my attributes (16, 16, 16, 15, 13, 13- first world problems, I know) as a halfelf. Something like:

STR 13 Dex 16 CON 16 INT 13 WIS 15 CHA 16 (+2)

but where should I put the +1s?

Round out STR and WIS (athletics and perception, though expertise adds more) or just start adding to Dex and CON so I can eventually get them to 18?


Dex and Con