Help the Pug's Character part II: Electric Boogaloo

[Pyramid Pug]

Sup folks, Pug's here with a follow up to the previous thread.

Things went both significantly better and worse than expected. I took the advise from the thread, bounced ideas with my barbarian mate and (despite what I said in the thread), ended up choosing a Bard/Warlock as a chassis for my researcher (the final push was my barbarian mate asking me if I was sure I didn't want it, 'cause bard pretty much hits all the notes I wanted out of the character, pun intended).

So I went to work, made both a good story to retire my current character without removing it from the campaign, and a good story intertwining the new character and the old party. At first my DM eyes flared up when I said I wanted to retire him, but I immediately told him I had both stories planned (he values fluff over mechanics so I didn't even mentioned classes 'till he asked), and he genuinely liked both of them and was commenting and giving advice and whatnot. He was really enjoying it.

He's an Indiana Jones kind of character, a scholar/researcher interested in the hidden story of the world, delving into ruins to find out how the old tribes/civilisations were and how they lived. Early on while on an expedition, he unknowingly helped an agent (could be a human, a dryad, a nymph, etc) of a patron (gonna be Celestial, but I'm fluffing it as a Nature type Patron) who was injured, at the expense of an old artefact that got lost in the process. The agent questions him about the artefact being lost and my character says it's fine 'cause what's important was the knowledge it gave, not the gold or magical value of it, and the living are the ones making history right now. Being stranded with the agent while it recovers, the agent teaches him how to fend for himself in the jungle (EB, Invocations), how to protect himself (armor of agathys, arms of hadar) and how to better move (spider climb, misty step), as a payment for his help. At the end, the patron commands the agent to test the character and the agent leads him to some ruins saying it would be of interest to the character. He braves the ruins finding vestiges and hints of an ancient tribe/civilisation that lived there and at the central chamber, with a series of murals depicting part of the story of the people and the being they followed, he found a pedestal with a medallion with a series of engravings further detailing the story. Has he picked the medallion, the pact was sealed and the patron gifted him with a book, asking him to go and record the hidden story of him, his people and the world (pact of the tome).

Now for the mechanic bits..

He's gonna be a Bard (lore)/ Warlock (celestial, tome). We're currently at lvl 9 so I assume he'll enter at least at that character level (depending on when my DM decides he joins up). Since I don't like the whole musical aspect of the Bard, I asked my DM if I could do some changes to it and he agreed, namely:

- Song of Rest is fluffed as a pep talk around the proverbial campfire, and Bardic Inspiration is.. well Inspiration really "KICK IT HARDER!!"😂. It helped that my DM has dm'd for several editions, including 3rd which had Oratory as a bard focus.
- Changed spell focus from instruments to an Arcane Focus (the medallion that sealed the pact with the patron)
- Changed tool proficiencies from instruments to Thief Tools (set of intricate tools to better handle relics), navigator tools (he needs to be able to find his way) and scribe/cartographer (probably scribe, makes more sense)
- The patron is celestial, but fluffed as a nature spirit (nature related classes have healing spells too after all). This is mostly fluff, with stuff like the EB being thorns being shot, Arms of Hadar being vines lashing out and so on.
- Gonna switch proficiency in one of the weapon with whip. This is just flavour whim and no more 🤣

Now before I go into further detail, the part that went badly.. I made a booboo.. an irreparable booboo... I rolled for stats, and boy oh boy, NEVER AGAIN! I got a 14, 9, 13, 12, 7, 11, this was with 4 rolls, drop the lowest. My DM took pity on my and told me to roll 1 set again and replaced the 7. I rolled a 9. I think I'll name the character Mr. Glass 😂

And this is the reason for this thread.. I wanted advice on how to proceed with these stats, 14, 9, 13, 12, 9, 11. For races I think Half-Elf gives me the more bang for my buck, with dark vision +4 stats and +2 skills (good since I'm making it a skill monkey of sorts), plus it makes sense from a story perspective, but I'm open to suggestions.

My background is Sage (researcher), My skills are set as well (assuming half-elf) with a mix of academia and survival stuff, and my spells are stuff that would make sense a field researcher to have, with spider climb, healing word, dispel magic, leo's tiny hut, suggestion, invisibilty, detect magic, identify, heat metal and lesser restoration.

For magical secrets, I picked Counterspell and want to pick a damage spell. Thing is.. fireball is good but doesn't make much sense on someone who wants to study and record ancient history and was trained by nature spirits. I was thinking maybe Tidal Wave? Does okayish damage, knocks folks prone (my other team mates are melee) and extinguishes fires).

My cantrips are again stuff that makes sense for a field researcher, with EB, Mage hand, Message, Minor illusion, Guidance, Thorn Whip (again, nature stuff + whip + could be used with OOC shenanigans :smallbiggrin: ) shocking grasp, vicious mockery plus the stuff from celestial.

The split will prolly be Lore Bard 6/ Celestial Tomelock 3.

That about it folks. TLDR: What do with 14,9,13,12,11,9 stats sans racial adjustment, advices on race (inclined to half elf) and advise on the 2nd magical secret spell.

[RogueJK]

Half Elf is a solid choice. I'd do:

STR 9
DEX 13+1
CON 11+1
INT 12
WIS 9
CHA 14+2

Or beg the DM for another mulligan, and just take the Standard Array or Point Buy. That'd get you:

STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 12
INT 13 +1
WIS 10
CHA 14+2


Then boost your CHA with another +2 from your Bard4 ASI.

For your next Magical Secrets at Bard10, Destructive Wave is a nice and flavorful nature-related 5th Level AOE spell. But for 3rd Level spells for a Lore Bard's first round of Magical Secrets, I think Counterspell and Fireball is a tough combo to beat. Like you did with your Warlock spells, you could reflavor Fireball as the scorching heat of the sun, or a meteor strike, or the like, to make it more nature-related.

Fly is another nifty choice for a 3rd Level spell to take with Magical Secrets. It's a great exploration spell that fits with the "ruins explorer" motif, it goes with the "nature" theme if you flavor it as "cool winds blowing in and bearing the target aloft", and it can assist your melee-centric party greatly, especially when fighting flying enemies.

Or, if you're the designated party healer, Aura of Vitality from the Paladin list is a nice 3rd Level healing spell (especially when used outside of combat), and could be another good choice for your other Magical Secret.

[Pyramid Pug]

Half Elf is a solid choice. I'd do:

STR 9
DEX 13+1
CON 11+1
INT 12
WIS 9
CHA 14+2

Or beg the DM for another mulligan, and just take the Standard Array or Point Buy. That'd get you:

STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 12
INT 13 +1
WIS 10
CHA 14+2


Then boost your CHA with another +2 from your Bard4 ASI.

For your next Magical Secrets at Bard10, Destructive Wave is a nice and flavorful nature-related 5th Level AOE spell. But for 3rd Level spells for a Lore Bard's first round of Magical Secrets, I think Counterspell and Fireball is a tough combo to beat. Like you did with your Warlock spells, you could reflavor Fireball as the scorching heat of the sun, or a meteor strike, or the like, to make it more nature-related.

Fly is another nifty choice for a 3rd Level spell to take with Magical Secrets. It's a great exploration spell that fits with the "ruins explorer" motif, it goes with the "nature" theme if you flavor it as "cool winds blowing in and bearing the target aloft", and it can assist your melee-centric party greatly, especially when fighting flying enemies.

Or, if you're the designated party healer, Aura of Vitality from the Paladin list is a nice 3rd Level healing spell (especially when used outside of combat), and could be another good choice for your other Magical Secret.

Well the issue with Fireball is not so much the flavor, but rather the colateral damage (indiscriminate explosion and setting fire to things). If my character is an archeologist wanting to find and preserve the past, a fireball sounds like a bad thing to use (and even more if the character is taught by nature spirits, who tend to not enjoy it very much lol).

I’m planning on getting Fly at a later date yeah, but for now I didn’t want to frontload the 3rd lvl spells too much. I’ll also take into account the Aura, tho those tend to center around the character and I ain’t too keen to get close to the action (especially with those stats lol).

The stats are good advice, tho I forgot to mention something. I might leave Con at 11 and boost wisdom to 10 with the racial. This is a gamble on my part, banking on surviving enough for the next ASL so I can take Resilient Con (which would prolly be the only feat I’ll take). The lvl 4 ASL I’m thinking of putting on Char yes, ‘cause missing stuff on ocasion can be fun but missing and having stuff resisted consistently is quite honestly frustrating.

Any thoughts on this?

[RogueJK]

Well the issue with Fireball is not so much the flavor, but rather the colateral damage (indiscriminate explosion and setting fire to things). If my character is an archeologist wanting to find and preserve the past, a fireball sounds like a bad thing to use (and even more if the character is taught by nature spirits, who tend to not enjoy it very much lol).

Understood. But considering the rest of your party is reportedly all melee combatants, which are usually less optimal against masses of weaker enemies, an AOE spell is a good option, especially since you said you want a damage spell. Fireball is the most effective 3rd level AOE damage spell, by a large margin. (The designers admit that Fireball is purposely overpowered.)

And even the more "natural" AOE damage spells will still potentially cause damage to the surroundings, including the Tidal Wave spell you were initially leaning towards.



I’ll also take into account the Aura, tho those tend to center around the character and I ain’t too keen to get close to the action (especially with those stats lol).

Aura of Vitality is better as an out of combat healing spell than an in combat healing spell. Nothing says you have to fire it up and wade into the thick of melee, although that's one potential use for it (for a sturdier caster like the Paladin it was originally designed for).

Instead, save it for after combat, when the party is victorious but beat up and in need of a lot of healing, and you don't have the opportunity for a Short Rest. (Or a Short Rest doesn't heal the party enough...) It does 20d6 healing, spread around in 2d6 increments any which way you like, to whoever in the party needs it. You can give one character the full 20d6 healing, heal one character for 14d6 and another for 6d6, heal five different characters for 4d6 each, etc.

It's much more efficient at out of combat healing than burning a whole bunch of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level slots on Cure Wounds or Healing Words, and it's a great option for times when one or two party members are hurt badly, or everyone in the party is hurt somewhat.

[RogueJK]

If you don't want AOE damage, Spiritual Weapon could be a decent choice for a damage spell. It's not a ton of damage, but it doesn't require concentration, it won't cause collateral damage, it doesn't require you to be near the front lines, and it's a 2nd level spell so you won't be front-loading your 3rd Level Spells Known. Plus it gives you something to do with your unused Bonus Actions, other than slinging Bardic Inspiration. (A Lore Bard can be spending his Inspiration Dice during combat on Cutting Words as a Reaction anyway, so you can do both.)

And unlike most Warlocks, it doesn't look like you took Hex, which is what most Warlocks spend a lot of their Bonus Actions on, so no competition there.

You could flavor the Spiritual Weapon however you like, such as a giant book smacking enemies around.

[OracularPoet]

Maybe 1/2 elf with moderately armored as feat?

S: 9
D: 12 +1 +1
C: 13 +1
I: 12
W: 9
CH: 14 +2

If get Res(Con) later, split an ASI between that and Wis?

[OracularPoet]

Other ideas:

1. Standard human with a level of cleric (Knowledge, for expertise in Arcana and History). ASI CON/CHA, Res(Con) later.

S: 9+1
D: 13+1
C: 11+1+1
I: 9+1
W: 12+1
CH: 14+1+1

2. Swap out Celestial for Hexblade (and if you keep it at level 1, you get 2 ASIs). Refluff patron as whatever, attack with whip using CHA, have medium armor & shield.

S: 9
D: 13+1
C: 12+1
I: 12
W: 9
CH: 14+2 (+2+2 with ASIs, potentially)

With #2, you can go tomelock later, if you want.

Edit: corrected error in #1, was accidentally giving an extra point in CHA.

[Pyramid Pug]

Sorry for the delay in replyin’ folks, got caught up with work.


Understood. But considering the rest of your party is reportedly all melee combatants, which are usually less optimal against masses of weaker enemies, an AOE spell is a good option, especially since you said you want a damage spell. Fireball is the most effective 3rd level AOE damage spell, by a large margin. (The designers admit that Fireball is purposely overpowered.)

And even the more "natural" AOE damage spells will still potentially cause damage to the surroundings, including the Tidal Wave spell you were initially leaning towards.

-


Aura of Vitality is better as an out of combat healing spell than an in combat healing spell. Nothing says you have to fire it up and wade into the thick of melee, although that's one potential use for it (for a sturdier caster like the Paladin it was originally designed for).

Instead, save it for after combat, when the party is victorious but beat up and in need of a lot of healing, and you don't have the opportunity for a Short Rest. (Or a Short Rest doesn't heal the party enough...) It does 20d6 healing, spread around in 2d6 increments any which way you like, to whoever in the party needs it. You can give one character the full 20d6 healing, heal one character for 14d6 and another for 6d6, heal five different characters for 4d6 each, etc.

It's much more efficient at out of combat healing than burning a whole bunch of 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level slots on Cure Wounds or Healing Words, and it's a great option for times when one or two party members are hurt badly, or everyone in the party is hurt somewhat.


If you don't want AOE damage, Spiritual Weapon could be a decent choice for a damage spell. It's not a ton of damage, but it doesn't require concentration, it won't cause collateral damage, it doesn't require you to be near the front lines, and it's a 2nd level spell so you won't be front-loading your 3rd Level Spells Known. Plus it gives you something to do with your unused Bonus Actions, other than slinging Bardic Inspiration. (A Lore Bard can be spending his Inspiration Dice during combat on Cutting Words as a Reaction anyway, so you can do both.)

And unlike most Warlocks, it doesn't look like you took Hex, which is what most Warlocks spend a lot of their Bonus Actions on, so no competition there.

You could flavor the Spiritual Weapon however you like, such as a giant book smacking enemies around.


One thing my DM suggested that might be more thematically coherent was Cloud of Daggers, and at a later date Cloudkill (followed by Cloud Strife at lvl 7, badumtish! :smallbiggrin: At first I was hesitant ‘cause it’s competing for concentration, but now that I look at it, I don’t really have any concentration stuff in combat outside of heat metal. It also goes well with repeling blast (my second invocation) and thorn whip.

I’ll definitely pick Aura later on, sounds like a good compliment for the song of rest as well. I really should have gone with stat array, there’s so many feats I’d like to take (inspiring leader and ritual casting for one).


Maybe 1/2 elf with moderately armored as feat?

S: 9
D: 12 +1 +1
C: 13 +1
I: 12
W: 9
CH: 14 +2

If get Res(Con) later, split an ASI between that and Wis?


Other ideas:

1. Standard human with a level of cleric (Knowledge, for expertise in Arcana and History). ASI CON/CHA, Res(Con) later.

S: 9+1
D: 13+1
C: 11+1+1
I: 9+1
W: 12+1
CH: 14+1+1

2. Swap out Celestial for Hexblade (and if you keep it at level 1, you get 2 ASIs). Refluff patron as whatever, attack with whip using CHA, have medium armor & shield.

S: 9
D: 13+1
C: 12+1
I: 12
W: 9
CH: 14+2 (+2+2 with ASIs, potentially)

With #2, you can go tomelock later, if you want.

Edit: corrected error in #1, was accidentally giving an extra point in CHA.

Sorry mate, got no intention of going anywhere near melee. Tho it’s inevitable at times, my stuff is geared towards repositioning if needed (repelling blast, misty step, shocking grasp). Plus my team mates are melee (barbarian and rogue), and what my team is lacking is spellcasting, skills, healing and ranged options. I’m feat hungry with these stats, but I put ritual casting, inspiring leader and resilient con above medium armor right now.

Also a slight prob with your plan.. K. Cleric wouldn’t give me anywhere near the skills I needed, nor the expertise, nor the healing potential, plus MC from cleric to warlock would need 13 on both charisma and wisdom.

And just between you and me, the character I parked was a cleric, so I ain’t keen on going back to it lol :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for bouncing ideas with me tho, one never knows when a random thougt from another person might trigger a new insight :smallbiggrin:

[solidork]

Have you considered setting yourself up to handle crowds by using an AOE disabling spell like Hypnotic Pattern, Fear or Slow instead of an AOE damage spell?

Something else to keep in mind is that 2nd level magical secrets are more attractive than usual for you because of your Warlock slots that refresh on a short rest. Some interesting choices in that regard include Spiritual Weapon (already mentioned), Web, Pass Without Trace and Moonbeam (particularly thematic considering your background).

You could also always just pick Lightning Bolt instead of Fireball. It's harder to cause general mayhem and destruction with it, but also harder to get the most out of it.

[Pyramid Pug]

Had an interesting thought regarding the backstory of my character, which explains the bad stats..

So while (unknowingly) helping the patron’s agent, my character gets a severe injury in the eye. While both are recovering and has a thanks, the agent teaches my character how to better fend himself in the jungle and towards the end of the recovery period, the patron orders the agent to bring my character to the nearby ruins in order to (secretly) test him.

My character braves the ruins, finding bits and pieces of lore about the old tribe/civilization that used to live there, eventually finding his way to the central chamber. The chamber was filled with murals telling part of the story of the patron and the tribe and on the center a medallion with more lore in it. Upon touching the medalion the test was completed and the pact sealed, the patron gifting my character a book and bidding him to go and write the hidden story of the world and of the Patron and it’s people (Pact of the tome).

Now seeing the injury on the eye he took upon helping his agent, the patron deems it a worthy sacrifice for him and takes out the character damaged eye, filling the socket with a simbiotic thorny vine that spreads through the character’s body, as it’s blessing.

The vine feeds on my character, making him sickly with coughs and fever (low constitution), and the fever makes it hard for him to collect his thoughts (low int), tho the feverish dreams are sometimes used by the patron to communicate with him. The loss of an eye also interferes with his sight (low wisdom, perception. The thorns however give him bursts of adrenaline allowing him to focus (high dexterity) and exude a pleasant aroma (pheromones, high charisma).

The plant however is simbiotic, not parasitic (it is a blessing after all). It protects my character by growing thorny patches on impact zones hurting enemies (Armor of Agathys, Arms of Hadar), allows him to climb by creating spikes (Spider Climb), can rapidly spread a virulent kind of poison ivy that feeds on metal (shocking grasp), lashes out with violent strentgh at a great distance (Eldritch Blast with Agonizing and Repelling blast, Thorny Whip), allows him to spread a luminescent polen (Light).. well you folks get the idea..

I think it’s a cool way to flavor the stats and spells. I’ll pitch my DM about him being detected and affected by plant affect spells like circles of protection or rebukes, has if he had become an half- plant elemental of sorts.



Have you considered setting yourself up to handle crowds by using an AOE disabling spell like Hypnotic Pattern, Fear or Slow instead of an AOE damage spell?

Something else to keep in mind is that 2nd level magical secrets are more attractive than usual for you because of your Warlock slots that refresh on a short rest. Some interesting choices in that regard include Spiritual Weapon (already mentioned), Web, Pass Without Trace and Moonbeam (particularly thematic considering your background).

You could also always just pick Lightning Bolt instead of Fireball. It's harder to cause general mayhem and destruction with it, but also harder to get the most out of it.

I’m highly tempted to pick Pass without trace, let me tell you.. it’s incredibly useful and thematically appropriate.

LB I’m not keen because it has the same prob as FB (Ignites stuff), and a straight line of 100 ft or whatever it was seems really hard to manage without causing damage to the environment (which granted can be said about most AoE).

As for the rest.. well.. I thought of it, but relying on concentration in battle with such low con, on a save or suck spell.. I’ve considered cloud of daggers (refluffed as cutting leaves, it’s supper effective) in combo with repelling blast.. okay it requires conc, but it’s short rest and will always do a bit of damage and area denial..

That Pass without trace tho... dangit..

[solidork]

As for the rest.. well.. I thought of it, but relying on concentration in battle with such low con, on a save or suck spell.. I’ve considered cloud of daggers (refluffed as cutting leaves, it’s supper effective) in combo with repelling blast.. okay it requires conc, but it’s short rest and will always do a bit of damage and area denial..

That Pass without trace tho... dangit..

Trust me, Hypnotic Pattern is 100% worth it. My party is level 12-14, and I just recently got access to Hypnotic Pattern on my Fighter 7/Warlock 6 and it is still one of the most powerful things anyone in the party can do.

Your concentration checks are only a little worse than normal, and careful positioning will go a long way towards making it so that you won't even need to make them. I think Armor of Agathys is a little counter productive, since it's only really good on characters that are going to be in melee and risking attacks. I'd consider taking Mirror Image instead as a defensive option.

[Pyramid Pug]

Trust me, Hypnotic Pattern is 100% worth it. My party is level 12-14, and I just recently got access to Hypnotic Pattern on my Fighter 7/Warlock 6 and it is still one of the most powerful things anyone in the party can do.

Your concentration checks are only a little worse than normal, and careful positioning will go a long way towards making it so that you won't even need to make them. I think Armor of Agathys is a little counter productive, since it's only really good on characters that are going to be in melee and risking attacks. I'd consider taking Mirror Image instead as a defensive option.

My lvl 2 spells are Spider Climb and Misty step which have both in and out of combat utility and make sense for an explorer. Mirror image would have to replace one of these.

Armor of Agathys is lvl 1 (and I need to pick 2 of them anyway), and even if the melee rider doesn’t apply, it’s still extra hp. Not many more interesting options at lvl 1 on the warlock list... there’s hex obviously, but that’s competing for concentration.. and I suppose comprehend language would make sense for an archeologist...

I do like hypnotic pattern.. requires a bit of finesse to aim, but so does a fireball if I don’t want to harm my teamates lol. It’s a save or suck spell and I have notoriously bad luck with those, but that ain’t the spell’s fault :smallbiggrin:

[solidork]

My lvl 2 spells are Spider Climb and Misty step which have both in and out of combat utility and make sense for an explorer. Mirror image would have to replace one of these.

Armor of Agathys is lvl 1 (and I need to pick 2 of them anyway), and even if the melee rider doesn’t apply, it’s still extra hp. Not many more interesting options at lvl 1 on the warlock list... there’s hex obviously, but that’s competing for concentration.. and I suppose comprehend language would make sense for an archeologist...

I do like hypnotic pattern.. requires a bit of finesse to aim, but so does a fireball if I don’t want to harm my teamates lol. It’s a save or suck spell and I have notoriously bad luck with those, but that ain’t the spell’s fault :smallbiggrin:

When you level up you can swap out a lower level spell for a higher level one, so you could theoretically replace AoA with Mirror Image.

[Pyramid Pug]

When you level up you can swap out a lower level spell for a higher level one, so you could theoretically replace AoA with Mirror Image.

Nope (well yes, but....)

1st lvl, 2 spells (1st lvl)
2nd lvl 3 spells (1st lvl)
3rd lvl 4 spells, (2nd lvl)

So at Warlock lv 3 we gain 1 spell from leveling which can be of 1st or second lvl, and we can replace 1 spell of 1st lvl with another from 2nd lvl, bringing the total of spells of 2nd lvl I can have to 2, which in my case would be Misty Step and Spider Climb.

In other words at 3rd lvl I can have 4/0, 3/1 or 2/2 spells of 1st/2nd lvls.