7/3 Gloomstalker Scout. What next?

[Crgaston]

I've managed to get my GS/Scout to L10 (7/3) and finally have the Scout features and the Wis save proficience from Gloomstalker. Over the next few levels, he'll be getting a couple ASI's and potentially Uncanny Dodge, more SA dice and 3rd level spells.

For context, he's operating as sort of a Pancho Villa or Francis Marion in a Combat as War campaign.

If you were running this guy, how would you do it? I'm thinking it'd be better to go 2 levels in either Rogue or Ranger so he ends up at 7/5 or 9/3, then 2 in the other for a 9/5 by CL 14.

What do y'all think for the ASI's?

Dex 20 and Sharpshooter?

Alert and Sharpshooter?

Dex 20 and Alert?

Something different?

I'm not so much interested in the -5/+10 from SS as I am the range and accuracy.

Also, what are your opinions on an 11/9 split vs a 9/11 split? Or some other combo? I'm not totally averse to a little Fighter or Druid in there depending on how his story unfolds.


Character is a variant Human with MI: Wizard for Control Flames, Mending and Find Familiar.

Stats are 12/18/14/10/14/8

Current spells are Find Familiar*, Disguise Self*, Goodberry, Hunter's Mark, Rope Trick*, Silence, Spike Growth and PWT.

Thanks for looking!

[Wildarm]

Grab another level of ranger and rogue for the ASIs - Get Dex and Sharpshooter for sure. Grab Ranger 9 for 3rd level spells. Rogue 5 for evasion. Then maybe fighter 3 for action surge and battlemaster moves.

[solidork]

I'd head straight for Reliable Talent personally, but that might just be me.

[McSkrag]

If you take Gloomstalker to level 13 there is a lot of synergy with Greater Invisibility for advantage on attacks, Sharpshooter's -5/+10 disregarding cover and range, and Stalker's Flurry for second chance if you do miss.

[Keravath]

I'd tend to go dex 20 and SS for ASI since, depending on your DM, the negating of cover and long range effects can be extremely useful even if you don't use the -5, +10. However, if you are fighting in darkness (the favorite environment for the gloomstalker) then you should probably almost always be using the SS damage bonus due to being considered invisible against creatures using darkvision and thus having advantage ... at least until you land your sneak attack. Generally the -5,+10 isn't desirable until after you have landed your sneak attack but your second attack can benefit from it.

As for leveling, the rogue gets good feature from 5 through 9 ... uncanny dodge, evasion and 10' bonus movement are all good.

The 11th level Stalker's Flurry is great for ensuring you land your sneak attacks since it gives you another attack if you miss .. this can make using the -5/+10 from sharpshooter more desirable (at least after you have landed your sneak attack).

On the other hand, the rogue gets reliable talent at 11 which means you will never roll less than 10 on any skill check you are proficient with.

The difference between 9 and 11 for rangers is one spell known and one spell slot ... as well as natural explorer (additional terrain) and hide in plain sight (relatively useless - at best extremely situational) which isn't that much.

On the other hand, rogue 10 is another ASI, and 11 is another d6 on sneak in addition to reliable talent - which will help all six skills you have expertise in.

So I might give the combat edge to Stalker's Flurry at level 11 ranger but in general, rogue 11 would appear to have a lot more utility along with some combat upgrades and an extra ASI.

[CTurbo]

I'd go Rogue all the way from there as the Scout's level 13 feature is great and the more Rogue features and sneak dice, the better.

Definitely 20 Dex and Sharpshooter and probably add on something like Mobile, Alert, Lucky, or Ritual Caster/Magic Initiate.

[Crgaston]

Thanks for the thoughts so far. Am I nuts for thinking that it might be worth prioritizing Alert over 20 Dex? +5 to initiative, never being surprised, and unseen enemies not getting advantage vs +1 to all the Dex stuff? I mean, it's not as though I took Assassin (although it was REALLY tempting), but Gloomstalkers get a pretty decent alpha strike every combat and it helps to go first.

After these 2 ASI's it'll be a long while before he gets another one... if I go GS9 then the next one won't be until L17. That's pretty late to max Dex, so... Yeah...

I'm thinking I want at least GS9 for Water Breathing and Plant Growth or Conjure Animals. With PWT and Water Breathing you've essentially got a SEAL team.

[RogueJK]

+2 to DEX. No contest. Get that DEX to 20 ASAP, especially since the alternative means waiting until almost the endgame to max it out.

A +2 to DEX gets you:
+1 to AC
+1 to Initiative (reducing Alert's benefit to only a comparative +4 more)
+1 to each of your attacks (melee and ranged)
+1 to your damage on each attack
+1 to DEX saves
+1 to Acrobatics (which is your character's primary anti-Grapple/Shove/Restrain defense)
+1 to Stealth (an important skill for your character concept)
+1 to Sleight of Hand

Those are bonuses that will be useful to you on a huge number of rolls. Comparatively, how often do you roll really low on Initiative? How often are you surprised? How often do you fight unseen attackers? Sometimes, sure. But not nearly as often as you roll for an attack, or roll for damage, or are on the receiving end of an attack, or try to be stealthy, or... etc.

And keep in mind that, with 5e's bounded accuracy, a +1 increase to all those has a significantly greater impact than a +1 in 3.x/4e.

[Wildarm]

Max your Dex ASAP. Just so important for a you. I always hate the almost mandatory +2 to your primary stat at level 4/8. There is almost never a better choice but it's a statistical thing so you barely notice it in play. I've been trying to limit ASIs to +1/+1 in my current campaign and it's working fairly well. People are picking up useful feats or half feats a lot more often and no one is really noticing a drop in power level from what I can see. Wish there was an alternate ASI progression added to the game. Maybe an automatic feat at Level 7 and 14 may be the solution. Possibly weakens the fighter a bit too much though.

[Crgaston]

+2 to DEX. No contest. Get that DEX to 20 ASAP, especially since the alternative means waiting until almost the endgame to max it out.

A +2 to DEX gets you:
+1 to AC
+1 to Initiative (reducing Alert's benefit to only a comparative +4 more)
+1 to each of your attacks (melee and ranged)
+1 to your damage on each attack
+1 to DEX saves
+1 to Acrobatics (which is your character's primary anti-Grapple/Shove/Restrain defense)
+1 to Stealth (an important skill for your character concept)
+1 to Sleight of Hand

Those are bonuses that will be useful to you on a huge number of rolls. Comparatively, how often do you roll really low on Initiative? How often are you surprised? How often do you fight unseen attackers? Sometimes, sure. But not nearly as often as you roll for an attack, or roll for damage, or are on the receiving end of an attack, or try to be stealthy, or... etc.

And keep in mind that, with 5e's bounded accuracy, a +1 increase to all those has a significantly greater impact than a +1 in 3.x/4e.


Max your Dex ASAP. Just so important for a you. I always hate the almost mandatory +2 to your primary stat at level 4/8. There is almost never a better choice but it's a statistical thing so you barely notice it in play. I've been trying to limit ASIs to +1/+1 in my current campaign and it's working fairly well. People are picking up useful feats or half feats a lot more often and no one is really noticing a drop in power level from what I can see. Wish there was an alternate ASI progression added to the game. Maybe an automatic feat at Level 7 and 14 may be the solution. Possibly weakens the fighter a bit too much though.

It is indeed tough to argue against max Dex, but does this make sense? I may have left out some pertinent information.

This character has the Archery FS and Bracers of Archery. So, baseline, that's like having a 22 attack stat.

He's already got Expertise in Athletics (+9) and is consequently not proficient in Acrobatics, so grappling/escaping would be unaffected, and if the party happens to run across some Gauntlets, none of the Str characters would have any use for them since their stats are already 20, but they'd turn him into a beast.

Stealth is already Expertised, with Boots of Elvenkind for advantage, not to mention Pass Without Trace, so sneaking is solid.

He has managed to earn the enmity of a recurring NPC villain; a Rakshasa who who operates on the Prime Material and inner planes using the cultivated persona of a human bounty hunter and who often travels with a pair of goblin rogues who have Rings of Invisibility. So the likelihood of Alert getting to shine is high.

Another side of that +1 tradeoff is that while those numbers have a higher payoff over time, they don't tend to provide dramatic results compared to Feats. I know I see a bunch of builds that recommend using SS or GWM before maxing out the attack stat, for example. And avoiding a surprise round by 2 invisible rogues is a pretty dramatic result. Not to mention the other times a +4 (vs 20 Dex) Initiative + Dread Ambusher + Hunter's Mark + Sneak Attack means one fewer opponent gets a turn the first round. +20% Initiative isn't chump change.

So, despite the very compelling argument to go +2 Dex, I'm finding a strong appeal for Alert.

Am I whack?

[CTurbo]

It is indeed tough to argue against max Dex, but does this make sense? I may have left out some pertinent information.

This character has the Archery FS and Bracers of Archery. So, baseline, that's like having a 22 attack stat.

He's already got Expertise in Athletics (+9) and is consequently not proficient in Acrobatics, so grappling/escaping would be unaffected, and if the party happens to run across some Gauntlets, none of the Str characters would have any use for them since their stats are already 20, but they'd turn him into a beast.

Stealth is already Expertised, with Boots of Elvenkind for advantage, not to mention Pass Without Trace, so sneaking is solid.

He has managed to earn the enmity of a recurring NPC villain; a Rakshasa who who operates on the Prime Material and inner planes using the cultivated persona of a human bounty hunter and who often travels with a pair of goblin rogues who have Rings of Invisibility. So the likelihood of Alert getting to shine is high.

Another side of that +1 tradeoff is that while those numbers have a higher payoff over time, they don't tend to provide dramatic results compared to Feats. I know I see a bunch of builds that recommend using SS or GWM before maxing out the attack stat, for example. And avoiding a surprise round by 2 invisible rogues is a pretty dramatic result. Not to mention the other times a +4 (vs 20 Dex) Initiative + Dread Ambusher + Hunter's Mark + Sneak Attack means one fewer opponent gets a turn the first round. +20% Initiative isn't chump change.

So, despite the very compelling argument to go +2 Dex, I'm finding a strong appeal for Alert.

Am I whack?

Nah do whatever you feel is best. Alert is a great feat. You'd be fine to put the +2 Dex off some if you want to.