Some TW/MW Fighting Feats - Looking for input

[Corenthius]

Hello everyone, I am looking for people's thoughts on some homebrew feats of mine (except Double Hit which is from Miniatures Handbook). Let me know if you think they need to be reworded, requirements changed, scrapped because of power issues, etc. To give you some insight on why I designed these feats, I created a Thri-kreen Monk/unarmed fighter. Thank you in advance for any input you can give.

Edit: 1/30/2019. Added Two Weapon Variants and Spoilers

Two-Weapon Fighting, Practiced
Two-Weapon Fighting, Practiced
[General][Fighter]
Through training, a character has learned how to fight with two weapons to greater ability.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: When you attack with light weapons or unarmed strikes in you off-hand, you do not take the -2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with multiple weapons. You can only gain this benefit with light or simple weapons.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting, Practiced as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Reference of similarity: Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability of Bloodclaw Master prc in Tome of Battle (page 97).

Multiweapon Fighting, Practiced
Multi-Weapon Fighting, Practiced
[General][Fighter]
Through training, a creature has learned how to fight with multiple weapons to greater ability.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, three or more arms, Multiweapon Fighting, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: When you attack with light weapons or unarmed strikes in you off-hands, you do not take the -2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with multiple weapons. You can only gain this benefit with light or simple weapons.
Special: A fighter may select Multiweapon Fighting, Practiced as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Reference of similarity: Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability of Bloodclaw Master prc in Tome of Battle (page 97).

Double Hit
Double Hit
Type: General, Fighter
Source: Miniatures Handbook
You can react with your off hand to make an additional attack along with an attack of opportunity.
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When making an attack of opportunity, you may make an attack with your offhand against the same target at the same time. You must decide before your first attack roll whether you want to also use your offhand. if you do, both attacks take the standard penalties for fighting with two weapons.
Special: A fighter may select Double Hit as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Multi Hit
Multi-Hit
[General][Fighter]
You can react with your off hands to make an additional attacks along with an attack of opportunity.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, three or more hands, Combat Reflexes, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting.
Benefit: If you are wielding multiple weapons and you make an attack of opportunity you may make a single melee attack with each off-hand weapon against a single opponent in addition to the normal attack of opportunity. You must decide before your first attack roll whether you want to also use your offhand attacks. You still suffer the normal penalties for Multi-weapon fighting.
Normal: You may only attack with a single weapon as an attack of opportunity.
Special: A fighter may select Multi-Hit as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Reference: Double Hit feat in Miniatures Handbook

Two-Weapon Flurry
Two-Weapon Flurry
[General][Homebrew]
Gain an additional off-hand attack during a flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from flurry of blows at 1st level of monk. You still apply any penalties associated with Two-Weapon fighting.

Multiweapon Flurry
Multiweapon Flurry
[General][Homebrew]
Gain additional off-hand attacks during a flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from flurry of blows at 1st level of monk. You still apply any penalties associated with multiweapon fighting.

Two-Weapon Flurry, Greater
Two-Weapon Flurry, Greater
[General][Homebrew]
Gain an additional off-hand attack as part of a greater flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 21, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon fighting, Two-Weapon Flurry, Greater Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack withyour off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from Greater flurry of blows at 11th level of monk.. You still apply any penalties associated with Two-Weapon fighting.

Multiweapon Flurry, Greater
Multiweapon Flurry, Greater
[General][Homebrew]
Gain additional off-hand attacks as part of a greater flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 21, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon fighting, Multiweapon Flurry, Greater Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from Greater flurry of blows at 11th level of monk.. You still apply any penalties associated with multiweapon fighting.

Two-Weapon Fighting, Hastened
Two-Weapon Fighting, Hastened
[General][Fighter][Homebrew]
Make an extra off-hand attack while hastened.
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon in addition to the extra attack you gain from being hastened. You still apply any penalties (if any) associated with Two-Weapon fighting.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting, Hastened as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Multiweapon Fighting, Hastened
Multiweapon Fighting, Hastened
[General][Fighter][Homebrew]
Make extra off-hand attacks while hastened.
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Three or more hands, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist in addition to the extra attack you gain from being hastened. You still apply any penalties (if any) associated with multiweapon fighting.
Special: A fighter may select Multiweapon Fighting, Hastened as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Debihuman]

The reason for the multiweapon feat is for creatures with 3 or more arms or appendages that can use weapons. Two-weapon feats are for creatures that can ONLY use two weapons. No one would want to have to take extra prerequisites if they didn't have to. I am assuming 3.5/3.75 and not 5e.

Debby

[rferries]

On the other hand, the Two-Weapon and Multi-Weapon feats could be merged into a single chain (where if you have more than two arms you automatically benefit).

[Debihuman]

Except you never need both. They basically do the same thing.

Multiweapon Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.

[rferries]

Yes, I mean the existing Two-Weapon feats should be renamed Multiweapon X, and the existing Multiweapon feats can then be deleted. Fewer feats to keep track of, though probably unnecessary.

Plus if a PC somehow gains or loses limbs, their feats will still be useful.

[Corenthius]

I think we went off topic here. I was looking for input on the posted feats. I wasn't really concerned about the balance or logistic issues of the "Two-weapon fighting" and "Multiweapon Fighting" feats themselves. I just posted TW/MW in the title to state that you could make either "Two-Weapon Fighting, Practiced" or "Multiweapon Fighting, Practiced" depending on your count of limbs. If you guys could please give me some input on the posted feats, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Debihuman]

Multi-Weapon Fighting, Practiced
[General][Homebrew]
Through training, a creature has learned how to fight with multiple weapons to greater ability.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, three or more arms, Multiweapon Fighting, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: When you attack with light weapons or unarmed strikes in you off-hands, you do not take the -2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting with multiple weapons. You can only gain this benefit with light or simple weapons.
Reference of similarity: Superior Two-Weapon Fighting ability of Bloodclaw Master prc in Tome of Battle (page 97).

If it can't use weapons because it has paws with claws or something how does this work? Creatures don't suddenly grow hands and opposable thumbs. Also no creature would use unarmed strikes -- they have natural weapons. It would hamstring them far too much.



Multiweapon Attack of Opportunity
[General]
You can exploit an opponent's opening in combat with Multiple weapons.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, three or more hands, Combat Reflexes, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting.
Benefit: If you are wielding multiple weapons and you make an attack of opportunity you may make a single melee attack with each weapon. You still suffer the normal penalties for Multi-weapon fighting. Each attack counts against your total number of attacks of opportunity per round. You still cannot exceed your normal maximum number of attacks of opportunity in a round.
Normal: You may only attack with a single weapon as an attack of opportunity.
Special: A fighter may select Multi-Weapon Attack of Opportunity as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Reference: Double Hit feat in Miniatures Handbook


Why not just add this as a Extra Attack of Opportunity? You already have Combat Reflexes so this just adds one more to each weapon. Improved Combat Reflexes rather than incorporating it with multiattack.



Multiweapon Flurry
[General][Homebrew]
Gain additional off-hand attacks during a flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from flurry of blows at 1st level of monk. You still apply any penalties associated with multiweapon fighting.

This seems to be the same as being hasted and far too expensive to waste a feat for this. Also, I've rarely seen a monster with levels in monk because natural weapons are so much better than unarmed attacks. Also monk requires creatures to be lawful. I don't see this getting much use as there are few 3+ armed races. I haven't seen a lot of Thri-kreen PCs (they are NOT usually lawful). As a novelty it would be interesting but not very useful.


Multiweapon Flurry, Greater
[General][Homebrew]
Gain additional attacks as part of a greater flurry of blows.
Prerequisite: Dex 21, three or more hands, Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon fighting, Multiweapon Flurry, Greater Flurry of Blows class feature
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist you have in addition to the extra attack you gain from Greater flurry of blows at 11th level of monk.. You still apply any penalties associated with multiweapon fighting.

Again not many monsters have levels of monk because natural weapons are so much better than unarmed attacks with the lawful requirement AND having 3+ arms.


Multiweapon Fighting, Hastened
[General][Fighter][Homebrew]
Make extra off-hand attacks while hastened.
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Three or more hands, Multi-Weapon Fighting, Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting, Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may make an additional attack with each off-hand weapon or fist in addition to the extra attack you gain from being hastened. You still apply any penalties (if any) associated with multiweapon fighting.

You probably shouldn't be able to stack hasten with itself.

Here's the thing, I don't hate the feats, but I don't want to spend the time to design a monster that would use them. It's too time consuming. Finding a niche monster takes too long and I can't think of many 3+ armed races for PCs (Thr-Kreen are usually chaotic so can't be monks and even if they could, they have LA and aren't often wanted by players as PCs). These feats are very niche.

Debby

[Corenthius]

Thank you for your input.
Forgive me if I mess up quotes. First time trying to use them.


If it can't use weapons because it has paws with claws or something how does this work? Creatures don't suddenly grow hands and opposable thumbs. Also no creature would use unarmed strikes -- they have natural weapons. It would hamstring them far too much.

As stated in the beginning. I made these feats with a thri-kreen monk concept in mind. Unarmed strikes scale with character level and become stronger than a base creatures natural attacks. Just because a creature doesn't have opposable thumbs does not mean they cannot use their limb as an unarmed strike. The feat requires three or more arms, so wings, legs, tentacles, etc. are out not counted.


Why not just add this as a Extra Attack of Opportunity? You already have Combat Reflexes so this just adds one more to each weapon. Improved Combat Reflexes rather than incorporating it with multiattack.

The combat reflexes feat allows you to make additional attacks of opportunity per round. It still limits you to 1 attack per combatant per round. With this feat you could make an additional attack with your off-hands (1 for TW, 2+ with MW) against the same opponent per attack of opportunity.
Improved Combat Reflexes is [Epic] and still does not allow a character to have more than 1 attack per combatant per round.


This seems to be the same as being hasted and far too expensive to waste a feat for this. Also, I've rarely seen a monster with levels in monk because natural weapons are so much better than unarmed attacks. Also monk requires creatures to be lawful. I don't see this getting much use as there are few 3+ armed races. I haven't seen a lot of Thri-kreen PCs (they are NOT usually lawful). As a novelty it would be interesting but not very useful.

Being hasted and using a monk's flurry of blows are not the same thing. A monk makes extra attacks with penalties for being less accurate. The rules do not state that you cannot include an extra hasted attack in addition to a monk's flurry attacks. People waste a feat (weapon focus) to gain a +1 to attack, so I don't see how gaining an extra attack at your highest BAB being too expensive.

If you had a magic item that grants you a constant haste, the hasted feat becomes far greater. Even if the haste time was limited, the extra potential damage output makes that feat worth it.

I don't see why you think natural attacks are better than a monk's unarmed strike. Most CR 4 or less creatures' natural attacks are 1d6 or 1d8. A monk's unarmed damage at lv 4 is 1d8. A creature's natural attack damage does not decrease with hit die, only when changing sizes, nor does a creature gain iterative attacks with those natural weapons. A monk's unarmed damage continues to increase with level as well as increases with size, they may also be treated as natural attacks for the purpose of feats and spells, and a monk gains iterative attacks with their unarmed strikes.


Finding a niche monster takes too long and I can't think of many 3+ armed races for PCs (Thr-Kreen are usually chaotic so can't be monks and even if they could, they have LA and aren't often wanted by players as PCs). These feats are very niche.

Remember you can make these Two-Weapon variants so the 3+ arm thing and LA may not be an issue at all. Usually chaotic does not mean you can't make a lawful thri-kreen.

Thanks again for your input.

[rferries]

I suppose there's sahuagin mutants, Xill, and mariliths too. Hecatoncheires as well haha?

[Corenthius]

Looking back, does anyone think that I should just combine the Two-Weapon Flurry and Greater Two-Weapon Flurry feats into a single feat, or should they stay separate?