Non-Wizard, Red Wizard Entry

[Yogibear41]

The DMG says that while rare it is possible for Sorcerers and Bards to qualify for the Red Wizard prestige class, but the feat Tattoo Focus requires you to be Specialized in a school of magic. Am I missing something obvious? other that being a higher level bard/sorcerer with 1 level in wizard?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I fear this might be a case of fluff being contradicted by crunch.

[Ruethgar]

AFB atm, but aren’t there Sorcerer specializations in some obscure Dragon Magazine that would qualify you? They were a terrible option as I recall, but still.

[Florian]

I fear this might be a case of fluff being contradicted by crunch.

Nope. But that's one of the cases that one should read Unapproachable East for the full Red Wizard of Thay an not just the mechanically actualized DMG write-up. In Thay, you don't matter if you don't have at least one level of Wizard, no matter how powerful you are as a Sorcerer, you will always be a 2nd or 3rd rate citizen and be barred from entering the rank of the Red Wizards.

[ShurikVch]

Doesn't Incantatrix count as Abjuration specialist?

[Yogibear41]

AFB atm, but aren’t there Sorcerer specializations in some obscure Dragon Magazine that would qualify you? They were a terrible option as I recall, but still.


Believe it or not I was looking at maybe a Bard or Death Master entry.

[Edenbeast]

Believe it or not I was looking at maybe a Bard or Death Master entry.

You actually answered your own question in your first post. One level of wizard, pick a school to specialise, and get Tattoo Focus. Get enough levels of bard or death master to cast 3rd level arcane spells, and you're there. You need to be human, and more specifically from Thay. Red Wizard are xenophobic and racists. Oh, and the feat requirements of course.

[ColorBlindNinja]

AFB atm, but aren’t there Sorcerer specializations in some obscure Dragon Magazine that would qualify you? They were a terrible option as I recall, but still.

They might? I think the perquisites specified having a level of Wizard.

[Jeraa]

They might? I think the perquisites specified having a level of Wizard.

Nope, the prerequisites don't specify any class. You just need to be specialized in a school of magic (in order to take the prerequisite feat) and cast 3rd level arcane spells.

The passage in question regarding sorcerers/bards(not this is in the descriptive text):


All Red Wizards have some skill as a specialist wizard, and most follow that path exclusively, but a few dabble in other sorts of learning (such as combat or divine magic). While it is possible for a sorcerer or bard to become a Red Wizard, such misfits are ridiculed in their homeland and are incredibly rare.

All have specialist wizard levels. Just some have other levels - of those, the ones with sorcerer and bard levels are ridiculed. If you look at the whole section is isn't saying or implying that single classed sorcerers and bards can take the class. It very clearly says all have specialist wizard levels.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Nope, the prerequisites don't specify any class. You just need to be specialized in a school of magic (in order to take the prerequisite feat) and cast 3rd level arcane spells.

So strictly RAW, Sorcerer and Bards qualify.


All have specialist wizard levels. Just some have other levels - of those, the ones with sorcerer and bard levels are ridiculed. If you look at the whole section is isn't saying or implying that single classed sorcerers and bards can take the class. It very clearly says all have specialist wizard levels.

That would imply that you need a one level dip in a Wizard, but I'm not sure that text actually counts as a prerequisite.

[Jeraa]

So strictly RAW, Sorcerer and Bards qualify.



That would imply that you need a one level dip in a Wizard, but I'm not sure that text actually counts as a prerequisite.


That text isn't a prerequisite. IT is the descriptive fluff text of the class. At the time, there was no other way to be specialized in a school of magic without being a wizard. And by RAW, single classed sorcerers and bards do not qualify, as they can't specialize in a school of magic. If they can somehow overcome that limitation, they could take the feat and qualify for the class. By default, they can't unless multiclassed.

I posted that section of textbecause it was claimed sorcerers and bards can take the class. If you look at the entire section, it makes it clear that it wasn't talking about single classed characters (as it states before that that all have some specialist wizard levels).

If you can find a way for a non-wizard arcane caster to specialize in a school, then they would be able to take the feat and the prestige class.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That text isn't a prerequisite. IT is the descriptive fluff text of the class. At the time, there was no other way to be specialized in a school of magic without being a wizard. And by RAW, single classed sorcerers and bards do not qualify, as they can't specialize in a school of magic. If they can somehow overcome that limitation, they could take the feat and qualify for the class. By default, they can't unless multiclassed.

That makes sense I guess.

[ShurikVch]

3.0 version of Incantatrix (published 2 months after the Red Wizard) explicitly got specialization in Abjuration school, and must select another prohibited school (unless already Abjurer); Bards and Sorcerers are got it too

Another way - to get Tattoo Focus as a bonus feat - bonus feats are ignore prerequisites, so even non-spellcaster may get it

[Daefos]

Another way - to get Tattoo Focus as a bonus feat - bonus feats are ignore prerequisites, so even non-spellcaster may get it

Most bonus feats do require you to have the prerequisites; that’s certainly not something you can make a generalized claim about. And the sources of bonus feats that do let you ignore prerequisites (ranger and monk come to mind) give you a list you select from. I’m not aware of anything that would let you take Tattoo Focus without being, or at least counting as, a specialist wizard.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I’m not aware of anything that would let you take Tattoo Focus without being, or at least counting as, a specialist wizard.

All the feat requires is that you have to be specialized in a school of magic, not that you have to be a Wizard.

[Thurbane]

All the feat requires is that you have to be specialized in a school of magic, not that you have to be a Wizard.

I can't find any other crunch text (barring Dragon mags I haven't got access to) that counts a "specialized in a school of magic" other than a wizard variant.

A reasonable DM might hand wave it to allow Spell Focus to count in place of specialized...

[ColorBlindNinja]

I can't find any other crunch text (barring Dragon mags I haven't got access to) that counts a "specialized in a school of magic" other than a wizard variant.

Another poster mentioned something from Dragon Magazine:


AFB atm, but aren’t there Sorcerer specializations in some obscure Dragon Magazine that would qualify you? They were a terrible option as I recall, but still.

[Thurbane]

Another poster mentioned something from Dragon Magazine:

AFB atm, but aren’t there Sorcerer specializations in some obscure Dragon Magazine that would qualify you? They were a terrible option as I recall, but still.

I'm curious to find this now: I've checked Dragon 348 & Dragon 351, with no success. If anyone knows the issue in question, I'd love to see this.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm curious to find this now: I've checked Dragon 348 & Dragon 351, with no success. If anyone knows the issue in question, I'd love to see this.

To the DragonDex (http://www.aeolia.net/dragondex/)!

[Yogibear41]

There is a sorcerer spontaneous caster flaw that makes you pick two prohibited schools.


Dragon Magazine #327, has the flaw, although you maybe referring to something else.

Its not really a "specialist" though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is a sorcerer spontaneous caster flaw that makes you pick two prohibit schools.


Dragon Magazine #327, has the flaw, although you maybe referring to something else.

Its not really a "specialist" though.

Well, that doesn't work because it's just banning schools instead of specializing in one. :smallfrown:

[Thurbane]

Dragon 330 p.94 "Sorcerers Are Special...ists, Too"

Sorcerers have "spheres", which seems to work similarly to Domain Wizards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#). They do use the term "specialist sorcerer". Some of the sample spheres presemted are Acid, Air, Fire Shadow and Summoning.

Not sure if it meets the reqs for Tattoo Focus though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dragon 330 p.94 "Sorcerers Are Special...ists, Too"

Sorcerers have "spheres", which seems to work similarly to Domain Wizards (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#). They do use the term "specialist sorcerer". Some of the sample spheres presemted are Acid, Air, Fire Shadow and Summoning.

Thanks for finding that. :smallsmile:


Not sure if it meets the reqs for Tattoo Focus though.

The feat says specialized a school of magic, so I don't think it would.

[ShurikVch]

Most bonus feats do require you to have the prerequisitesAnd guess why they do it?..
Because, otherwise, you're wouldn't required to have those prerequisites!


that’s certainly not something you can make a generalized claim about.Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm):
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.See: prerequisites are optional for bonus feats!


And the sources of bonus feats that do let you ignore prerequisites (ranger and monk come to mind) give you a list you select from. I’m not aware of anything that would let you take Tattoo Focus without being, or at least counting as, a specialist wizard.There are some possibilities:
Racial 1st-level bonus feat (at least, for Humans and Strongheart Halflings)
Rogue's Special Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities)
Loremaster's Applicable knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/loremaster.htm)
Marshal's 1st-level bonus feat - in case you're already have Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Citadel Elite PrC - unspecified bonus feats at 2nd and 4th levels
Symbiotic Creature template - A symbiotic creature retains the host's feats and gains the guest's feats as bonus feats.

[Daefos]

And guess why they do it?..
Because, otherwise, you're wouldn't required to have those prerequisites!

Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm)

The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
:See: prerequisites are optional for bonus feats!

You're cherry-picking a segment from the rules on monsters (you know, from the Monster Manual) that is explaining how to read their statblocks. That is far from a system-encompassing rule. In fact, that passage does not appear anywhere in either the Players Handbook or the Dungeon Masters guide. But do you know what does appear?


Additionally, members of some classes get bonus feats as class features. These feats may be chosen from special lists (see Fighter Bonus Feats, below, and the individual class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details).
A human character also gets a bonus feat at 1st level, chosen by the player. This feat can be of any feat for which the character qualifies.
There seems to be a conspicuous lack of anything that suggests that you don't have to meet the prerequisites of the feat you select. In fact, humans are specifically called out as needing to meet the prerequisites. But before you argue that specifically calling humans out as needing to meet the prerequisites of their bonus feat suggests that other bonus feats bypass them, let's look one section further down on the page.


Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite. For example, at 3rd level, Krusk, the halforc barbarian, could spend 1 skill point on the Ride skill (gaining his first rank in Ride) and select the Mounted Combat feat at the same time.
A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite. For example, if your character’s Strength drops below 13 because a ray of enfeeblement spell, he or she can’t use the Power Attack feat until the prerequisite is once again met.
Once again, no mention is made of bonus feats bypassing prerequisites. In fact, throughout the entire section, there is no indication that the rules for selecting a bonus feat is in any way different than the rules for selecting a regular feat. The closest it comes to implying a difference is the segment on Fighter Bonus Feats, and even that is just stating that Fighters draw from a shortened list when selecting their bonus feats rather than selecting any feat they want.

You're taking a passage that says "Hey, just so you know monsters were sometimes given bonus feat they don't actually qualify for, but it's fine don't worry about it" from an explanation on reading monster statblocks, and insisting that it says "All bonus feats taken by anyone in any context bypass prerequisites" as a general rule that applies across the entire system in direct defiance of what the rules for selecting feats actually says.

[ShurikVch]

You're cherry-picking a segment from the rules on monsters (you know, from the Monster Manual) that is explaining how to read their statblocks.
There are no separate rules for monsters
Even the quote which I posted pointed it:
A monster gains feats just as a character does.And, if "a monster gains feats just as a character does", then guess what?
It also means "character gains feats just as a monster does"!


That is far from a system-encompassing rule.Monster Manual is a Core book.
Also, if this rule wasn't system-encompassing, then there wouldn't be a need to reiterate it again and again (such as for most classes which are give bonus feats)


In fact, that passage does not appear anywhere in either the Players Handbook or the Dungeon Masters guide.So what?
For example, passage about the voluntary dropped immunities doesn't appear anywhere besides that one place about the Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw.
So, can I ignore it too?


But do you know what does appear?

There seems to be a conspicuous lack of anything that suggests that you don't have to meet the prerequisites of the feat you select.But there is also certain lack of statements which insist you must qualify for bonus feats in order to take them
And it still leave the question about the bonus feats which are neither 1st-level racial feats, nor "chosen from special lists" - such as everything which I listed after the first line


In fact, humans are specifically called out as needing to meet the prerequisites.Specific trumps general
OK, racial 1st-level feats are out!


But before you argue that specifically calling humans out as needing to meet the prerequisites of their bonus feat suggests that other bonus feats bypass them, let's look one section further down on the page.

Once again, no mention is made of bonus feats bypassing prerequisites.Note: it isn't about the bonus feats (thus, irrelevant)


In fact, throughout the entire section, there is no indication that the rules for selecting a bonus feat is in any way different than the rules for selecting a regular feat.Because it doesn't mentioned bonus feats at all!
Absence of RAW isn't a RAW by itself!


You're taking a passage that says "Hey, just so you know monsters were sometimes given bonus feat they don't actually qualify for, but it's fine don't worry about it" from an explanation on reading monster statblocks, and insisting that it says "All bonus feats taken by anyone in any context bypass prerequisites" as a general rule that applies across the entire system Once again - there are no separate rules for monsters!
It's not a 4E!!!


in direct defiance of what the rules for selecting feats actually says.And rules are saying...
What?..
Show me!
Or is it in invisible text which only you can read?
(To lighten your burden of proof - no need to quote anything related to non-bonus feats, it wouldn't fly there :smallwink:)

[Thurbane]

The whole "do bonus feats ignore reqs" thing has been debated back and forth since the early days of 3E. No consensus has ever been reached.

Obviously, some sources of bonus feats specifically spell out that you ignore the usual reqs, so those shouldn't be in debate.

The more general rule, however, isn't really cut and dried either way: probably best just to check with your DM.

[Yogibear41]

If one instance(s) of bonus feats says you can ignore the requirements, then clearly the rest of the time you don't ignore the requirements. Seems pretty simple to me.

[Kelb_Panthera]

See: prerequisites are optional for bonus feats!

Oh you can't be serious?

That quote from the monster manual is calling out an exception for the requirement to meet a feat's prerequisites to -use- a feat, not to choose one. None of the feats to which that section applies are selected. It even says that prerequisites can only be ignored if the monster the feat is attached to doesn't meet them.

In the exceedingly rare case that you are allowed to select a bonus feat -and- ignore its prerequisites, the source of the bonus feat will say so. There are enough instances of bonus feats being granted without prerequisites, mostly without selection being a factor, that the concern of exactly this sort of confusion had reminders placed on some bonus feats for which prerequisites must be met, as normal.

If a source of a bonus feat exempts you from prerequisites, you're exempt. If it explicitly calls on you to meet prerequisites, it's redundant and if it doesn't mention prerequisites at all then they have to be met, as normal. The blanket exemption for bonus feats already assigned to various creatures is not a general rule.