Rolling Perception checks

[JoeJ]

Is there any difference I'm not seeing between rolling Stealth vs. passive Perception and rolling Perception vs. "passive" Stealth? If not, then it occurred to me that having the players (rather than NPCs) be the ones to roll, whether they're the ones looking or sneaking, might be more fun.

[Zhorn]

No reason you can't do this.
Passive perception is just the most used which is why it has a spot on character sheets, but all abilities can be passives. Just comes down to how the DM want to run their game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emHtNULI6c0

[JoeJ]

On further thought, having multiple characters rolling Perception significantly increases the chances that at least one will succeed. Which isn't necessarily a problem, since the bias would always be in favor of the side rolling dice, which would be the PCs, and I kind of think that having monsters or NPCs successfully sneak up on PCs is only fun if it doesn't happen very often.

[Edenbeast]

Is there any difference I'm not seeing between rolling Stealth vs. passive Perception and rolling Perception vs. "passive" Stealth? If not, then it occurred to me that having the players (rather than NPCs) be the ones to roll, whether they're the ones looking or sneaking, might be more fun.

It depends. I never use passive stealth, I also can't really imagine why or when I would use it. Passive perception vs. a roll for perception though, is to me the difference between actively trying to spot something or just happen to notice that goblin sneaking past while looking at the stars. The difference between standing guard or just sitting at the camp fire eating your meal. I think you should be careful with letting the players role for everything. Will that actually be more fun?
In the example with the sneaky goblin, will you ask all your players to roll for perception or just one of them? If only one and he fails, the others will know something is wrong and ask to make a perception check as well. If you ask everyone to roll, and all fail, they will expect something still, unless you let them roll perception every ten minutes even if nothing is wrong.
The other option is that you roll stealth for the goblin behind your screen. None of the players knows why you rolled a dice, do it on your phone and none of them even suspects anything. Then compare the result with each player's passive perception and when one spots the goblin give them a note or jut tell them. I think the last (passive perception vs. stealth) is ultimately more fun and immersive. You could use the goblin's passive stealth, but where's the fun in that? He might fail critically and tumble over a bucket of water, or have a good day with a natural 20.
The same you can do when a player tries to sneak past a bunch of orcs: have him roll for stealth vs. the orcs' passive perception. Which makes resolving the situation just easier for you since they probably have the values. However, you could argue in favour of rolling for the orcs' perception, when they are guarding an entrance for example. Some of them might hear something and go check it out while the others stay behind. After all, enemies that get split up are easier to deal with for the party.
So, short conclusion is, don't let all the rolls come down to the players.

[UnintensifiedFa]

Here’s what I do. For perception, investigation, and insight checks, it’s easy for a player to think that when they get a bad roll, they haven’t seen anything and will suspect more. So, when you want to roll perception, get their modifier (or have it written down) and roll for them, then describe what they see. This is an amazing way to cut down on meta gaming in those kind of checks. So if you’re rolling the players against passive stealth, then if the players roll low, they won’t suspect a thing.

[Orc_Lord]

Here’s what I do. For perception, investigation, and insight checks, it’s easy for a player to think that when they get a bad roll, they haven’t seen anything and will suspect more. So, when you want to roll perception, get their modifier (or have it written down) and roll for them, then describe what they see. This is an amazing way to cut down on meta gaming in those kind of checks. So if you’re rolling the players against passive stealth, then if the players roll low, they won’t suspect a thing.

This is exactly what I do. Even the best role-players will meta game this. I also do this for their stealth.

I write both numbers down so I can roll for them. However perception is meant to be passive most of the time so there is no need for roll.

To answer about the reverse, can players passively stealth? Here is how I do it...

If my players say they are being sneaky or quiet or whatever I will. If players are talking in character while approaching something I assume they are not being stealthy which means that anyone with a 10+ passive perception would just notice them.

If their passive is low, like 7 or lower I might roll for them.

Always add flavor to these rolls. I find it a great way to make the world come alive. The harder they fail the more compromising I will make it look.

Examples of NPCs failing passive perception: sleeping guard, PCs catching NPCs doing things like taking a swig of drink, checking themselves out with a mirror, talking to themselves, cooking. Having a conversation with someone. Picking their nose

Examples of NPCs failing stealth: tripping, yelling something, bumping furniture, dropping a plate, brushing against a bush or tree

I do the same for the PCs but it's almost always environment related since I don't want to take freedom from player action. Unless I find some low hanging comedic effect, for example one PC liked eating weird things, he himself said that one of the rotting hedgehogs he had for lunch gave him a stomach ache...so when he rolled a one in stealth, I said something like "you feel your stomach rumble, your squeeze your butt to hold the fart but it's no use the pressure is too high and it makes it worse, your ass cheeks let out this high pitched sound that continues for a few seconds...the orc looks behind the rock you where hiding at, with a mix of blood lust an amazement..roll initiative"

[JoeJ]

Good points everyone. As far as metagaming goes, though, there are plenty of cases where it doesn't matter. Failing to detect an ambush, for example, just means that your character is surprised when the arrows start flying. If a pickpocket tries to grab something from a random PC and run, a failed Perception check means that they have a head start but the PCs still have a chance to catch them. If failure means the PC doesn't notice anything at all until much later then yeah, I would not have the player roll that.

[Man_Over_Game]

Good points everyone. As far as metagaming goes, though, there are plenty of cases where it doesn't matter. Failing to detect an ambush, for example, just means that your character is surprised when the arrows start flying. If a pickpocket tries to grab something from a random PC and run, a failed Perception check means that they have a head start but the PCs still have a chance to catch them. If failure means the PC doesn't notice anything at all until much later then yeah, I would not have the player roll that.

Good rule of thumb: If the player didn't ask to do it, don't tell them to roll. If the player isn't rolling, then use the player's passive stat and then you roll against that.

The way Stealth is treated in DnD 5e is that you roll your Stealth as an active roll against everyone's passive Perception, and then your Active roll is treated like a Passive Stealth that everyone rolls against actively using their Perception. But there's no reason you couldn't just skip out on the first step (of requiring a player to make an Active Stealth roll) if they're Hiding everywhere they go.

[Orc_Lord]

Good points everyone. As far as metagaming goes, though, there are plenty of cases where it doesn't matter. Failing to detect an ambush, for example, just means that your character is surprised when the arrows start flying.

If rolling or not rolling makes no difference there should be no roll. They automatically succeed. You only roll lot have them roll if it actually makes a difference. Or adds to the story.

Now from the DM side you sometimes roll to create variance. This is why things like weather tables make sense.

For PCs every time they roll it breaks immersion from the game. Rolling is always out of character as an action.


To take your example..and by the way, you know what your table finds fun, so use your judgement, you are the ones that knows your table..but anyway.

What's better.

DM: you are walking down the alley, roll Perception
PC1: 8
PC2: ****, Nat 1
DM: you keep walking down the alley heading to the Yawning Portal
PC1: (nervously) uhm do we see anything?
PC2: By the way, my sword is at the ready, and I am in the back
DM:An arrow flies from the rooftop, what's your AC?
PC1: 18
DM: it hits,roll initiative

Or
DM: You are walking down the alley (secret roll while talking, you roll a 5+3 stealth and a 1)
DM to PC2 that totally failed: you step on a rotten tomato and almost slip, it smells disgusting
PC2: ****!, I wipe my boot off
PC1: that stinks m...
DM: *thunk* an arrow hit you straight on the shoulder
PC2: ****
DM: Roll initiative

To me, the second way is much better. It helps me be more creative, I now have to take the roll and manifest it, why did the PC roll a 1?

[JoeJ]

If rolling or not rolling makes no difference there should be no roll. They automatically succeed. You only roll lot have them roll if it actually makes a difference. Or adds to the story.

I meant situations where metagaming doesn't matter, not that the roll doesn't.


Now from the DM side you sometimes roll to create variance. This is why things like weather tables make sense.

For PCs every time they roll it breaks immersion from the game. Rolling is always out of character as an action.


To take your example..and by the way, you know what your table finds fun, so use your judgement, you are the ones that knows your table..but anyway.

What's better.

DM: you are walking down the alley, roll Perception
PC1: 8
PC2: ****, Nat 1
DM: you keep walking down the alley heading to the Yawning Portal
PC1: (nervously) uhm do we see anything?
PC2: By the way, my sword is at the ready, and I am in the back
DM:An arrow flies from the rooftop, what's your AC?
PC1: 18
DM: it hits,roll initiative

Or
DM: You are walking down the alley (secret roll while talking, you roll a 5+3 stealth and a 1)
DM to PC2 that totally failed: you step on a rotten tomato and almost slip, it smells disgusting
PC2: ****!, I wipe my boot off
PC1: that stinks m...
DM: *thunk* an arrow hit you straight on the shoulder
PC2: ****
DM: Roll initiative

To me, the second way is much better. It helps me be more creative, I now have to take the roll and manifest it, why did the PC roll a 1?

It would be more like:

DM: You start down the alley. Everybody roll a perception check. <pause to let them roll> Anybody who didn't roll at least a modified 14 is surprised when a dark figure hidden in the shadows ahead of you raises a crossbow and fires. Everyone roll initiative.

Initiative comes before the attack hits or misses, because an unsurprised PC might be able to act before the attacker gets their shot off.

[Orc_Lord]

Alright,

In my example I had both fictional PCs fail, probably because it fit my narrative as an example.

So you are indeed correct that if only some of the PCs fail you have to roll initiative before the arrow hits. This happens on my table too where I use their Passive Perception or active stealth or whatever....but to use your example


DM: You start down the alley. Everybody roll a perception check. <pause to let them roll> Anybody who didn't roll at least a modified 14 is surprised when a dark figure hidden in the shadows ahead of you raises a crossbow and fires. Everyone roll initiative.

On my table, I would have rolled stealth for the NPC and used PC Passive Perception, but since I am using your example, let's pretend the NPC rolled a 14 stealth and the PCs have to beat his stealth. So let's pretend I rolled Stealth for the NPC of 14, and I rolled for PC1: 10, PC2: 4, PC3: 18 (so she will notice)

DM: You start down the alley. <rolled the values above>. PC3, a dark figure hidden in the shadows ahead of you raises a crossbow, it's an ambush! Everyone roll initiative.

Now depending on the initiative order PC3 might or might not be able to warn everyone. Since I have been playing with my group a while, they all know that I expect them to say in character if they noticed something. At times I will literary pass a note to PC3 and say this part "a dark figure hidden in the shadows ahead of you raises a crossbow, it's an ambush!"

I find notes work the best in this situation because it just makes the game more exciting when the PCs actually have to tell others what's going on.

For me I like creating emotions in my game, good, bad, excitement, surprise, confusion, love, brotherhood. For me that's what the game is for...but I digress.

Again, this is not the only true way to have fun. Maybe for you that seems extremely boring, or just irrelevant. There are DMs that don't roll initiative, they just go with what makes the most sense to them, be it proximity, perception, cinematic experience. Granted it's not RAW, but if it works for their group it works.

If your players LOVE killing things, and they want 99% combat, then maybe they also like rolling a lot.
If your players LOVE roleplaying, and they hate combat, then not rolling initiative at all could make sense.

My main group wants about 70% combat, 30% social. My other group wants 80-90% RP, 10% combat. I DM differently because it makes them like the game more.

I also DM for 3 kids ages 6-9. They roll a lot, because to them rolling IS the game. So you better believe I have them roll for everything.

[LudicSavant]

Is there any difference I'm not seeing between rolling Stealth vs. passive Perception and rolling Perception vs. "passive" Stealth? If not, then it occurred to me that having the players (rather than NPCs) be the ones to roll, whether they're the ones looking or sneaking, might be more fun.

One big difference is that the Observant feat suddenly doesn't do things.

[GlenSmash!]

One big difference is that the Observant feat suddenly doesn't do things.

I love that feat. It's my favorite way to round out an odd Intelligence score.

[JackPhoenix]

What's better.

DM: you are walking down the alley, roll Perception
PC1: 8
PC2: ****, Nat 1
DM: you keep walking down the alley heading to the Yawning Portal
PC1: (nervously) uhm do we see anything?
PC2: By the way, my sword is at the ready, and I am in the back
DM:An arrow flies from the rooftop, what's your AC?
PC1: 18
DM: it hits,roll initiative

Or
DM: You are walking down the alley (secret roll while talking, you roll a 5+3 stealth and a 1)
DM to PC2 that totally failed: you step on a rotten tomato and almost slip, it smells disgusting
PC2: ****!, I wipe my boot off
PC1: that stinks m...
DM: *thunk* an arrow hit you straight on the shoulder
PC2: ****
DM: Roll initiative

Both are equally bad. Initiative always come before the first attack.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Ok, my 2c.

DMs, use the passive.

Riddle me this, is being stealthy actually passive?

What are you adjudicating? Does failure even have a consequence?

If there is no consequence, and the player could eventually succeed, then the player does eventually succeed given enough time.

How much time? I can suggest a number of turns equal to the difference between their first roll and the DC, but you can make up your own rule. And you could have your players roll over and over again.

[Tanarii]

Riddle me this, is being stealthy actually passive?

If the PC is being stealthy repeatedly, and you dont want the player to have to roll the die over and over again, yes.

If the player cannot know the result of the stealth die roll, ie the result must be secret, eg so they cannot guess if there is an enemy nearby percieving them, yes.

Passive just means the player doesnt roll a die. It has nothing to do with the PC being active or passive. Quite literally by PHB definition.

[LudicSavant]

Riddle me this, is being stealthy actually passive? Passive rolls explicitly refer to the player, NOT THE CHARACTER, being passive (as in, they don't actually roll dice). For example, continuously searching for secret doors is clearly the character being active, but it uses a passive roll.

[mephnick]

Now depending on the initiative order PC3 might or might not be able to warn everyone.

As long as you don't let that invalidate surprise. Surprise is determined before positions are set and initiative is rolled. I've seen tables run like that and it's just silly.