DMing a Monk/Wild Magic Sorcerer

[BarneyBent]

So I’m about to start DMing a game, and one of my players has indicated he’d like to play a Halfling Monk/Wild Magic Sorcerer. I’ve made it clear I’m happy for people to be a bit off the wall (this is a side campaign to give our usual DM an off week and a chance to play herself), so I definitely don’t want to discourage what is a pretty creative character.

Problem is it’s not a build with much synergy. So I’m looking for ideas to make the build operate a bit more effectively, and also make more use of the Wild Magic Surge table.

Ideas off the very top of my head include letting him use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Sorcerer spells, letting him roll on the Wild Magic Table without taking Sorcerer levels so he can otherwise focus on being a Monk, or allow him to roll Wild Magic Table when expending Ki OR casting a Sorcerer spell, that sort of thing.

Any ideas would be appreciated - would prefer not to mess with his character idea and just tweak mechanics to make it work but all advice appreciated.

[DeTess]

So I’m about to start DMing a game, and one of my players has indicated he’d like to play a Halfling Monk/Wild Magic Sorcerer. I’ve made it clear I’m happy for people to be a bit off the wall (this is a side campaign to give our usual DM an off week and a chance to play herself), so I definitely don’t want to discourage what is a pretty creative character.

Problem is it’s not a build with much synergy. So I’m looking for ideas to make the build operate a bit more effectively, and also make more use of the Wild Magic Surge table.

Ideas off the very top of my head include letting him use Wisdom instead of Charisma for Sorcerer spells, letting him roll on the Wild Magic Table without taking Sorcerer levels so he can otherwise focus on being a Monk, or allow him to roll Wild Magic Table when expending Ki OR casting a Sorcerer spell, that sort of thing.

Any ideas would be appreciated - would prefer not to mess with his character idea and just tweak mechanics to make it work but all advice appreciated.

Are you sure this will need any tweaking at all? It seems you haven't seen it in action yet, so I'd wait to see if there is an actual issue before trying to change things. If you do decide that change is necessary, I'd talk about it with the player first to see what he would enjoy.

Edit: though if you decide it does need tweaking, I'd start by moving either the casting to Wisdom, or the monk features to charisma and leave it at that.

[CTurbo]

You want to "help" him? Allow the group to roll for stats. Let them roll 2-3 and pick the best OR allow everybody to roll and let anybody choose anybody's array. This is my favorite method. I would NOT allow his spells to work off of Wis.

I've been known to make up some stat arrays to promote stuff like this.

[Vorok]

I think the best thing would be to talk with him about what does he want from the character, maybe try it out for a few sessions, check back if it's what he wanted and adjust accordingly.

[Vogie]

If you just want them to roll the Wild Magic Surge, have it trigger (d20 roll) whenever they spend Ki points as well as sorcerer spells cast, and require a second roll after Ki spent to refresh tides of Chaos.

I also would not allow the Sorcerer Spells to use Wisdom.

[Keravath]

One thing to consider is that wild magic seems like a fun chaotic option .. until that point where the wild magic sorcerer causes a TPK with the wrong roll. If anyone cared about their characters ... poof they are gone.

Of course one might say "but this never happens" ... however, from personal experience, I have seen fireballs rolled twice in separate games. In one case, only the caster and one other party member were within range while in the other most of the party were affected. In the first case, the characters made their save and the party were able to recover from the incident while in the latter case, several characters were knocked to zero hit points and I don't recall if anyone made it out alive (the DM may have adjusted things after the fireball to allow for an unlikely survival).

Other than that, I don't think you need to modify the character. The sorcerer can bring some interesting and useful utility to the monk ... though the player should probably focus primarily on monk levels with the sorcerer levels adding flavour and utility (e.g. have the shield spell will increase the monk survivability ... plus the four cantrips can provide a useful scalable ranged attack along with some utility).

[RogueJK]

plus the four cantrips can provide a useful scalable ranged attack

Which is an area where Monks traditionally suffer. (Lack of good ranged options was my only real frustration with the Shadow Monk I played, but everyone can't be good at everything.)

But most Monks wouldn't be able to have a high enough CHA to remain competitive with Sorcerer attack spells, since they're fairly MAD already, needing a high DEX and WIS, and a moderate CON already. So unless they're really lucky when rolling for stats, they'll likely be relegated to defensive and utility spells if they dip Sorcerer, due to a middling CHA score. Still potentially useful, though.

(In addition, from a strictly optimization standpoint, if they did end up with lucky enough rolls to have a high CHA to justify dipping Sorcerer to pick up attack spells, Warlock would be a better option, for Eldritch Blast. And more importantly, Warlock would allow access to Hex as well, to add 1d6 extra damage to each of their many Monk attacks per round. And Hexblade Patron would allow for even a bit more added damage and more frequent crits from Hexblade's Curse, plus access to Shield. In addition, both the Monk's Ki and the Warlock's spell slots reset on a Short Rest, so there's additional synergy there.)

[Max_Killjoy]

First, I do find it odd that there's so little synergy to be found in the mechanics of the two character classes built around "internal energy". There should be a way to be found to work Ki and Sorcery Points into an interaction that's both interesting and balanced.

Second, I wish they'd left Wild Magic for a subsequent sourcebook and put a different "sorcerous origin" into the PHB alongside the dragon blood... Wild Magic isn't fit for some/many campaigns, and that table just comes across as a giant bag of troll (the internet kind) that tempts other players to have their PCs murder a Sorcerer PC in their sleep and leave the body for the scavengers.

[Man_Over_Game]

[...]
Any ideas would be appreciated - would prefer not to mess with his character idea and just tweak mechanics to make it work but all advice appreciated.



For a solution for this exact kind of problem, you can check out the Prestige Options link in my signature. I created a suite of additional options to use as alternate modifiers for specific classes, but tied in some simple restrictions to maintain balance.

There is one option I had in mind that would fit perfectly:

Medium of the Arcane
You can level into Sorcerer, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Sorcerer features.
Requirement: You cannot have levels of Cleric or Druid. You must be able to cast Detect Magic.

The Sorcerer is a type of caster that is inherently magical. Wisdom is the stat for recognizing all that you see around you and what your senses are registering to your mind. These two ideas (someone that can "feel" magic/The attribute of being in tune with your senses) seem to have a lot of similarities.

However, before just tacking on "Wisdom" onto everything Sorcerer, balance needs to be upheld. Sorcerers allow the modification of magic, making them incredibly versatile and a welcome addition for any caster than can afford the Charisma for it. However, Clerics and Druids who already have a large number of Concentration spells, AoE spells, and Medium Armor are incredibly versatile as it is. Allowing Clerics/Druids to combine with Sorcerer will result in some overpowered, over versatile builds that will trump many other options. Narrative-wise, it also makes sense for the Sorcerer to specialize in believing in themselves for casting their spells as opposed to relying on an outside source. Even with something like multiclassing with Warlock, a pact can be of your own choosing and design, so it fits well narratively, where Druid and Clerics do not.

Additionally, Sorcerers have access to some of the best melee combat spells at low levels for martial characters, with things like Absorb Elements, Shield, Thunderwave, and the SCAG cantrips. To make it less effective for "murderhobo" style builds, Detect Magic is also added as a requirement for the sake of reducing overall combat efficiency. With how it is written, the requirement for Detect Magic can be satisfied with Ritual Caster or other caster levels rather than using Sorcerer spell selections, but that also dampens the overall combat effectiveness of the build.

As a result, you have a character that works well with the Ranger and Monk without completely overstepping on the playstyle of Eldritch Knights (or similar melee caster combatants), and while still rewarding Charisma-based Sorcerers for having access to more Caster options. This ends up making the Wisdom Sorcerer a valid mechanical choice, but mostly a narrative one.

[Rukelnikov]

First, I do find it odd that there's so little synergy to be found in the mechanics of the two character classes built around "internal energy". There should be a way to be found to work Ki and Sorcery Points into an interaction that's both interesting and balanced.

Well, this provides an easy buff to the character in question without changing class stats, let Ki and Sorcery point be interchangable, gg.

[Vogie]

Well, this provides an easy buff to the character in question without changing class stats, let Ki and Sorcery point be interchangable, gg.

... so Sorcery points refresh on short rest?

Yeah, that doesn't sound problematic at all.

*Sips coffee*

[Max_Killjoy]

... so Sorcery points refresh on short rest?

Yeah, that doesn't sound problematic at all.

*Sips coffee*

More or less problematic than the "coffeelock"? :smallwink:

[PeteNutButter]

No synergy? There’s plenty of synergy. It’s just MAD.

First level in sorcerer gives shield spell which is golden for any melee character. Picture a Monk 7/Sorc 1. Enemy attacks, hits, monk casts shield, and surges making a fireball drop on both the enemy and the monk. Monk makes save with evasion and takes nothing, nuking everything around him. Granted that’s super rare, but it be hella cool for the player to walk out of that fireball unscathed.

In practice though Blur and mirror image are both great. Alter self turns the monk into wolverine making his unarmed strikes +1 weapons for an hour. There are lots of good things you can get. Haste is obviously great if it gets to sorc 5.

If you want to make it have a better quality of life you could offer to have ki/sp be interchangeable but lose the ability to turn them into spell slots (to prevent the aforementioned coffeelock BS). But really the only reason this MC isn’t great is the MADness.

[sithlordnergal]

Best method to help this build is let them use Point Buy, and give them 30 to 31 points to use instead of 27. The player can then make a Half-Elf that starts with 16 charisma, 16 wisdom, 14 con, and 14 dex. The player will eventually need to choose if they want to focus on charisma casting or monk stuff. But that's one of the difficulties of playing a build like that.

[MrStabby]

I have allowed ki and sp to be interchangeable before. It has been surprisingly balanced. You lose out on so much in the mix that a few more resources is not game breaking. More to the point, it isn't really more resources in most adventuring days. Sure, add some per short rest you take but consider the sp you could have got from spell slots but now you can't.

I also based both of cha and it worked just fine.

[Rukelnikov]

... so Sorcery points refresh on short rest?

Yeah, that doesn't sound problematic at all.

*Sips coffee*


More or less problematic than the "coffeelock"? :smallwink:

If its a player that would abuse short rest recovery, then he clearly doesn't need a "buff" to his char to begin with :S

My sorlock never did that

[Garfunion]

My 2 cents

Replace the monk’s Wisdom with Charisma, restrict multiclassing no bards, sorcerers or warlocks.

Path of wild sorcery
At 3rd level the monk learns two sorcerer cantrips. The monk also learns two sorcerer spells of 1st level. The monk can learn higher level spells as they gain levels, see table below.
Monk lvl—————Spell lvl
5———————2nd
9———————3rd
13———————4th
17———————5th
The monk learns two additional spells at 6th, 11th, and 17th level. Anytime you gain a monk level, you may replace one spell you know for another spell from the sorcerer spell list.

The monk uses Ki to cast spells. The max amount of Ki a monk can spend to casting a spell or up cast a spell is shown on the table below.
Monk lvl———Ki/Spell lvl
3——————-2/1st
5——————-3/2nd
9——————-4/3rd
13——————5/4th
17——————6/5th
When a monk spends Ki to cast a spell they may roll a percentile die on the sorcerer’s wild magic surge table. If the monk rolls an effect that restores sorcery point, the monk restores Ki instead.
Charisma is the monks spellcasting ability for any spell that requires a spell attack.

With this you now have a Tower of Fang sorcerer that can go by the name of Orphan.

[Man_Over_Game]

My 2 cents

Replace the monk’s Wisdom with Charisma, restrict multiclassing no bards, sorcerers or warlocks.

Path of wild sorcery
At 3rd level the monk learns two sorcerer cantrips. The monk also learns two sorcerer spells of 1st level. The monk can learn higher level spells as they gain levels, see table below.
Monk lvl Spell lvl
5 2nd
9 3rd
13 4th
17 5th
The monk learns two additional spells at 6th, 11th, and 17th level. Anytime you gain a monk level, you may replace one spell you know for another spell from the sorcerer spell list.

The monk uses Ki to cast spells. The max amount of Ki a monk can spend to casting a spell or up cast a spell is shown on the table below.
Monk lvl Ki/Spell lvl
3 2/1st
5 3/2nd
9 4/3rd
13 5/4th
17 6/5th
When a monk spends Ki to cast a spell they may roll a percentile die on the sorcerer’s wild magic surge table. If the monk rolls an effect that restores sorcery point, the monk restores Ki instead.
Charisma is the monks spellcasting ability for any spell that requires a spell attack.

With this you now have a Tower of Fang sorcerer that can go by the name of Orphan.

Why not go Sorcerer, using Wisdom? That makes more sense to me than a Monk dodging attacks using Charisma.

[Garfunion]

Why not go Sorcerer, using Wisdom? That makes more sense to me than a Monk dodging attacks using Charisma.
The monk gets some nice perks, that the sorcerer would have to spend resources on to try and replicate.

[Max_Killjoy]

The monk gets some nice perks, that the sorcerer would have to spend resources on to try and replicate.

I think what they meant was, why not have the Sorc change to Wisdom-based, rather than the Monk to Charisma-based, for the multiclass combo?

[Rukelnikov]

I think what they meant was, why not have the Sorc change to Wisdom-based, rather than the Monk to Charisma-based, for the multiclass combo?

Garfunion is not proposing a multiclass, but instead a homebrew monk subclass that keys off Cha

[Max_Killjoy]

Garfunion is not proposing a multiclass, but instead a homebrew monk subclass that keys off Cha

Guess I missed that.

Hmmm... not sure what to make of a CharisMonk.

[Garfunion]

Guess I missed that.

Hmmm... not sure what to make of a CharisMonk.
You can look at charisma as luck or a natural magical protection.

I like luck better, to go with the wild magic part.

[Max_Killjoy]

You can look at charisma as luck or a natural magical protection.

I don't think I can.

[BarneyBent]

Thanks for the input, some good ideas. Had a bit more of a chat and he’s keen on probably just the one level of Sorcerer for cantrips and some first level spells. So he’s probably not going to gimp his Monk build too much - in fact Shield and Absorb elements are quite handy, as is a ranged cantrip or two.

It does mean he’s not going to get much out of the Wild Magic side of things, but that’s ok. He’s happy for me to stick to the normal Wild Magic rules and if that’s not enough to keep things interesting then throw in some more surges when he expends Ki, or perhaps when his usually calm and focused character gets flustered or angry.

[Max_Killjoy]

Thanks for the input, some good ideas. Had a bit more of a chat and he’s keen on probably just the one level of Sorcerer for cantrips and some first level spells. So he’s probably not going to gimp his Monk build too much - in fact Shield and Absorb elements are quite handy, as is a ranged cantrip or two.

It does mean he’s not going to get much out of the Wild Magic side of things, but that’s ok. He’s happy for me to stick to the normal Wild Magic rules and if that’s not enough to keep things interesting then throw in some more surges when he expends Ki, or perhaps when his usually calm and focused character gets flustered or angry.

Maybe he started manifesting the crazy magic that responsed to his emotional state, and was sent to monastery to learn to control his emotions.

(Getting a slight "Teen Titans Raven" vibe here.)

[BarneyBent]

Maybe he started manifesting the crazy magic that responsed to his emotional state, and was sent to monastery to learn to control his emotions.

(Getting a slight "Teen Titans Raven" vibe here.)

That’s more or less the background, yeah.