Is Durkon going to Regenerate his mom's arm?

[heavyfuel]

He can still cast the spell, even though he lost 2 levels from dying twice (he could previously cast Symbol of Death, a lv 8 spell)

Is he gonna spend a spell on her? Will he offer and she refuse? My bet is on the latter

[AutomatedTeller]

He can still cast the spell, even though he lost 2 levels from dying twice (he could previously cast Symbol of Death, a lv 8 spell)

Is he gonna spend a spell on her? Will he offer and she refuse? My bet is on the latter

Well, he's about to go into battle with more vampires and the fate of the world is at stake, so I'm guessing he's not going to spend a high level spell on his mom's arm - and I'm guessing she'd be pissed if he did.

After, maybe. After the order defeats Xykon, probably.

[heavyfuel]

and I'm guessing she'd be pissed if he did.

That's what I think is going to happen. He'll offer to cast and she'll lecture him

[KorvinStarmast]

That's what I think is going to happen. He'll offer to cast and she'll lecture him She never let go. :smallcool: I wonder if, emotionally, she feels that the lost arm is still a connection between her and her dead husband. (That may come up if the offer of regenerate comes up ...)

[The Pilgrim]

Leaving her arm without regenerating was the price she paid for not resurrecting her husband. Regeneraring it would feel for her like if she had left all the sacrifice on him. Like a betrayal to the memory of her husband. So she probably is not going to allow Durkon do it.

[Synesthesy]

She never let go.

This still is the best moment in this comic for me.

However, he is Durkon again, now. He can cast the spell, but there is no chance he has prepared it. Mostly because there is no reason Greg should have, and Durkon didn't have time to prepare his own spells

[Jasdoif]

However, he is Durkon again, now. He can cast the spell, but there is no chance he has prepared it.He's planning to prepare new spells at dawn. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1152.html)

[Verappo]

I don't think Durkon has the necessary spell slots for that right now, but I'd say he'll definitely offer. If anything, we know Sigdi is developing arthritis in the other hand, so if she doesn't want the whole arm fixed that can be cured at least

[Throknor]

You are asking the wrong question.

The correct question is "Has Sigdi resolved to let go of the past and her choices involved to ask for her arm to be restored?"

Reliving his life through memories has probably helped Durkon come to terms with the idea that his mother's problems aren't his to solve for her, if the weekly conversations already haven't. As a former soldier injured in the line of duty there's no way she couldn't have had her arm restored if she'd really wanted it.

But she is still holding on to her dead husband in her heart. She won't regrow her arm until she moves on which might be never (in life, anyway).

[Fyraltari]

As a former soldier injured in the line of duty there's no way she couldn't have had her arm restored if she'd really wanted it.

Not having enough money to pay for it sounds like a way.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, the whole "so poor they don't even have enough money to replace a broken dish" was the main through-line of what Durkon was showing the vampire. It's why he was shocked when he found out she gave up a fortune instead of fixing her arm or raising Durkon's father.

[Throknor]

Yeah, the whole "so poor they don't even have enough money to replace a broken dish" was the main through-line of what Durkon was showing the vampire. It's why he was shocked when he found out she gave up a fortune instead of fixing her arm or raising Durkon's father.


Not having enough money to pay for it sounds like a way.

Here's the thing: raising dead costs actual diamonds. Regenerate has no such requirement. If after she made a donation of enough money to raise five strangers the clerics refused to regenerate her arm lost in service to her land.... I would not want to be one of those clerics when meeting a Deva for judgement.

I hold a similar dim view of an armed service that wouldn't have a system of having its soldiers healed when it can be done so easily. Heck, if she had been passed out the clerics probably would have done it without asking. They're Lawful Good. The combination of die-honorably/pile-of-diamonds probably would stop outright raising of dead soldiers, but there must be some version of a Hippocratic Oath honorable Lawful Good clerics would follow.

I don't know why she chose to live such a life of poverty. But it was a choice. The five miners she brought back all appear to be doing better than her. Even a one armed former soldier could have gotten a job as an instructor in the very least to bolster her pension.

[Dion]

Nope. I can’t imagine her allowing it. She’s holding Tenrin’s hand with that missing arm, and she will never let go.

[Peelee]

As a former soldier injured in the line of duty there's no way she couldn't have had her arm restored if she'd really wanted it.
You seem to have an idealized view of veteran care. Or at least great optimism that it's better in Stickworld.

Here's the thing: raising dead costs actual diamonds. Regenerate has no such requirement. If after she made a donation of enough money to raise five strangers the clerics refused to regenerate her arm lost in service to her land.... I would not want to be one of those clerics when meeting a Deva for judgement.
Raise Dead needs a 9th level cleric. Regenerate needs a 13th level cleric. There'll be fewer of them, likely significantly fewer. It's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that they're in the single digits, and high up enough in church hierarchy to not be available for personal requests.

I hold a similar dim view of an armed service that wouldn't have a system of having its soldiers healed when it can be done so easily.
Ah. So not optimism about Stickworld, just the idealized view of veteran care in general.

[deuterio12]

+1 to Durkon restoring her arm in the epilogue.
...
Unless she dies hnorably and heroically saving her son.
...
Crap, she's gonna die saving her son isn't she? :smallfrown:


Here's the thing: raising dead costs actual diamonds. Regenerate has no such requirement. If after she made a donation of enough money to raise five strangers the clerics refused to regenerate her arm lost in service to her land.... I would not want to be one of those clerics when meeting a Deva for judgement.

I hold a similar dim view of an armed service that wouldn't have a system of having its soldiers healed when it can be done so easily. Heck, if she had been passed out the clerics probably would have done it without asking. They're Lawful Good. The combination of die-honorably/pile-of-diamonds probably would stop outright raising of dead soldiers, but there must be some version of a Hippocratic Oath honorable Lawful Good clerics would follow.

You only need to take a look at real life militaries across history to see that getting a crippling injury usually means you're shoved to the side whitout much ceremony and needing almost begging for any long-term treatment. And Durkon's mom is just too prideful for begging.



I don't know why she chose to live such a life of poverty. But it was a choice. The five miners she brought back all appear to be doing better than her. Even a one armed former soldier could have gotten a job as an instructor in the very least to bolster her pension.
She soon had a newborn son to raise with a single arm and nobody to help fulltime, she couldn't really afford any fulltime job.

Besides the military having a one-armed instructor isn't exactly inspiring for new recruits. "If you work your hardest, you may end up just like me!"

[Fyraltari]

+1 to Durkon restoring her arm in the epilogue.
...
Unless she dies hnorably and heroically saving her son.
...
Crap, she's gonna die saving her son isn't she? :smallfrown:
Nah, Durkon already has an origin story, she's just as safe as aunt May.


Besides the military having a one-armed instructor isn't exactly inspiring for new recruits. "If you work your hardest, you may end up just like me!"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b07887ZzKiw

[RatElemental]

Here's the thing: raising dead costs actual diamonds. Regenerate has no such requirement.

"Among us dwarves, only the high priest o' Odin's skilled enuff ta muster tha sort o' magic. At least these days. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)"

"[...] We dinnae haf enuff ta make tha trip ta tha capital, e'en!"


If after she made a donation of enough money to raise five strangers the clerics refused to regenerate her arm lost in service to her land.... I would not want to be one of those clerics when meeting a Deva for judgement.

"Och, tha clerics need ta pay fer stuff too, lad!"

Spellcasters that can cast 7th level spells are rare. Regenerate isn't a spell one often needs to prepare in the morning, especially when your job is to act as the head priest of a temple and not going out adventuring, meaning they'd have to prepare it the next day and then cast it. This will deprive them of the slot for use in, say, making magic items or casting other spells they tend to use day to day.

Someone needs to foot the bill for tying up the time and resources of one of the most powerful people in the world for a whole day.

[littlebum2002]

I mean if you want to be realistic about it, the Clerics saying "since you brought so many of our soldiers back to life, we'll Regenerate your arm for free" is a lot less likely of a response than, say, "You brought so many of our soldiers back to life, now are you going to pay to feed and shelter them for the next few decades, too? We already wrote them off in our budget."

In fact, I believe there was a man who was wrongfully declared dead, went to court to contest it, and his petition was denied due to it creating too much red tape.

[Peelee]

I mean if you want to be realistic about it, the Clerics saying "since you brought so many of our soldiers back to life, we'll Regenerate your arm for free" is a lot less likely of a response than, say, "You brought so many of our soldiers back to life, now are you going to pay to feed and shelter them for the next few decades, too? We already wrote them off in our budget."
They were miners, not soldiers.

In fact, I believe there was a man who was wrongfully declared dead, went to court to contest it, and his petition was denied due to it creating too much red tape.
Source? Court systems are designed to help the wronged party*, and even though legal codes are, to the lay person, ridiculously rigid and labyrinthine, the courts are still run by people, not automatons. Most "silly" court decisions people hear about are either gross misrepresentations of the details of the case (usually malicious and/or part of a concerted effort to distort the truth, like the famous McDonald's coffee case) or flat-out urban legends.

*and determine which, if any, party was wronged. Also this is a pretty big simplification. Tossing this all out before any actual lawyers beat me to the punch.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I definitely think Durkon will offer to do so. It’ll be interesting to see how Sigdi responds.


In fact, I believe there was a man who was wrongfully declared dead, went to court to contest it, and his petition was denied due to it creating too much red tape.

Real Life Imitates Catch-22, apparently. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

Source?
Dunno if it's what littlebum was thinking of, but this (https://apnews.com/ee4d620dae76406a93e02b434c970740) came up on a Google search. As you suspected, the case is more complex than "there's too much red tape."

[C_Myriel]

Spellcasters that can cast 7th level spells are rare. Regenerate isn't a spell one often needs to prepare in the morning, especially when your job is to act as the head priest of a temple and not going out adventuring, meaning they'd have to prepare it the next day and then cast it. This will deprive them of the slot for use in, say, making magic items or casting other spells they tend to use day to day.

Someone needs to foot the bill for tying up the time and resources of one of the most powerful people in the world for a whole day.

Besides, even if the High Priest of Odin were willing to prepare Regenerate in all of his 7th-or-higher level spellslots and spend all day casting it on the injured for free, the amount of people who would need body parts regenerated would likely still far exceed the number of Regenerates he could cast in a day.

[Throknor]

"Among us dwarves, only the high priest o' Odin's skilled enuff ta muster tha sort o' magic. At least these days. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)"

"[...] We dinnae haf enuff ta make tha trip ta tha capital, e'en!"



"Och, tha clerics need ta pay fer stuff too, lad!"

Spellcasters that can cast 7th level spells are rare. Regenerate isn't a spell one often needs to prepare in the morning, especially when your job is to act as the head priest of a temple and not going out adventuring, meaning they'd have to prepare it the next day and then cast it. This will deprive them of the slot for use in, say, making magic items or casting other spells they tend to use day to day.

Someone needs to foot the bill for tying up the time and resources of one of the most powerful people in the world for a whole day.

TLDR/Summary: Sigdi didn't share her true reasons for not being healed until Durkon was an adult an revealed she doesn't want the arm healed - the lost arm is still holding on to the dwarf she loves. Anything she said before that should be taken with a grain of salt.

Long form:
I admit I forgot that Regenerate was higher level and she claimed required traveling she couldn't afford. My argument is that between suing the government because the threat was misrepresented; nicking money off the five people she helped; or simply plea-bargaining with the clerics of Thor who witnessed her charity she had ways of raising the money if she had really wanted to.

I will clarify that there may be something beneath everything Sigdi told Durkon about why she couldn't be healed. The real reason was "I did na let go". When Durkon was young and didn't know how she lost her arm she just fed him plausible reasons for not getting it back. I'm merely trying to point out ways she probably good have if she wasn't suffering from a form of PTSD.

That being said, I will repeat the Good and Honorable labels. We know the High Priest of Odin has traveled to visit the High Priest of Thor. He may make annual visits; possibly to do local healings for those who can't travel but can pay for the healing itself. So it isn't beyond possibility that the clerics who witnessed Sigdi make the donation could have started a fund to pay for the Regenerate during his next visit - if she would accept it.

Religious leaders go through hospitals daily for those that can't go to them. Even the Pope goes around the world to bless those that can't make it to him.

I don't have an idealized version of real-life interactions of people. But I do have expectations for the labels Good and Honorable applying to Clerics, that they would make an effort to help those in need. For Sidgi to characterize Thor's clerics as beholden to only helping those who can pay puts them firmly into Lawful Neutral territory. Yes, they have expenses. But if they can't find a way to be occasionally charitable they would have no right to be called Good.

ETA:

Besides, even if the High Priest of Odin were willing to prepare Regenerate in all of his 7th-or-higher level spellslots and spend all day casting it on the injured for free, the amount of people who would need body parts regenerated would likely still far exceed the number of Regenerates he could cast in a day.

Call me crazy, but part of the reason to become a high-level non-adventuring cleric would probably be the desire to help those who need it. I know they need money to keep themselves fed but I will again assert that if they never heal anyone who cannot pay then they'd have no right to the label "Good", and it's debatable about "Honorable". Granted I don't know that Odin's followers are in fact "Good" so this may not actually fully apply. My above arguments mainly apply to whether her clerics of Thor would try to help if she asked.

[Fyraltari]

suing the government because the threat was misrepresented
You are from the United States, aren't you?


nicking money off the five people she helped; or simply plea-bargaining with the clerics of Thor who witnessed her charity she had ways of raising the money if she had really wanted to.
That she doesn't want to rely on the charity of others (literal hand-out) does not mean she would never wants her arm back.
The one thing Sigdi doesn't want to be is a burden on somebody else's shoulders not her friends, not the Church of Thor not th


I will clarify that there may be something beneath everything Sigdi told Durkon about why she couldn't be healed. The real reason was "I did na let go". When Durkon was young and didn't know how she lost her arm she just fed him plausible reasons for not getting it back. I'm merely trying to point out ways she probably good have if she wasn't suffering from a form of PTSD.
I mean why would she not want it regrown? It isn't going to make her forget Tenrin. He'd probably be the first to tell her that it would just be making her life harder to nobody's benefit.

That being said, I will repeat the Good and Honorable labels. We know the High Priest of Odin has traveled to visit the High Priest of Thor. He may make annual visits; possibly to do local healings for those who can't travel but can pay for the healing itself. So it isn't beyond possibility that the clerics who witnessed Sigdi make the donation could have started a fund to pay for the Regenerate during his next visit - if she would accept it.
That was a priest of Odin not the High Priest, probably the highest-level Dwarven Cleric of Odin at the time but it's never said he was the High Priest. The current High Priest is a human woman. And I see no reason to assume these two are Good.



Religious leaders go through hospitals daily for those that can't go to them. Even the Pope goes around the world to bless those that can't make it to him.
And yet the odds of a random bed-ridden catholic ever meeting the pope are pretty slim. Also the pope doesn't have to manage a congregation of magicians, nor does he ever receive specific missions from his god.


I don't have an idealized version of real-life interactions of people. But I do have expectations for the labels Good and Honorable applying to Clerics, that they would make an effort to help those in need. For Sidgi to characterize Thor's clerics as beholden to only helping those who can pay puts them firmly into Lawful Neutral territory. Yes, they have expenses. But if they can't find a way to be occasionally charitable they would have no right to be called Good.

There are plenty of Neutral and Evil Clerics.




Call me crazy, but part of the reason to become a high-level non-adventuring cleric would probably be the desire to help those who need it. I know they need money to keep themselves fed but I will again assert that if they never heal anyone who cannot pay then they'd have no right to the label "Good", and it's debatable about "Honorable". Granted I don't know that Odin's followers are in fact "Good" so this may not actually fully apply. My above arguments mainly apply to whether her clerics of Thor would try to help if she asked.
Help how? They can't cast the spell and saving some of their money to pay for it would be taking money they need for something else for Sigdi's benefit, something she will never agree to.

[tomandtish]

I mean if you want to be realistic about it, the Clerics saying "since you brought so many of our soldiers back to life, we'll Regenerate your arm for free" is a lot less likely of a response than, say, "You brought so many of our soldiers back to life, now are you going to pay to feed and shelter them for the next few decades, too? We already wrote them off in our budget."

In fact, I believe there was a man who was wrongfully declared dead, went to court to contest it, and his petition was denied due to it creating too much red tape.

Actually, not quite. I've been following the case in question (https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/judge-tells-living-man-that-he%E2%80%99s-still-legally-dead-201043615.html;_ylt=A0LEVxOMPbBWMKEANa5XNyoA;_ylu= X3oDMTBybGY3bmpvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYw Nzcg--) through the years.

He was declared legally dead (appropriately under the law). When he finally showed up in court, he tried to have the order overturned (https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2013/10/09/Man-unable-to-get-his-death-ruling-overturned/15901381332824/). However, there's a three year statue of limitations on having it overturned.

Having it overturned would mean that everything that occurred because of the ruling was undone (insurance settlements, property sales, etc.). That's why there's a time limit on appealing the ruling. What he could (and still can) do is simply file the appropriate paperwork to have himself declared alive again. So you have him LEGALLY alive until 1994, LEGALLY dead from 1994 until he files, then LEGALLY alive again once his filing is complete.

Apparently the problem is that he keeps trying to fight the ruling instead of just filing, and then after failing to fight the ruling says he doesn't have the money to do the filing. I believe he tried appealing again last year with a similar result.

In short, it seems he initially got some bad legal advice (I have no idea why his lawyer didn't tell him he was past the time frame), and has chosen to stick with it. This isn't a red tape problem as such, since there realistically comes a point in time where you can't reasonably undo all the actions taken as a result of the death ruling. It's someone being way too stubborn for their own good.

[Peelee]

Actually, not quite. I've been following the case in question (https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/judge-tells-living-man-that-he%E2%80%99s-still-legally-dead-201043615.html;_ylt=A0LEVxOMPbBWMKEANa5XNyoA;_ylu= X3oDMTBybGY3bmpvBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYw Nzcg--) through the years.

He was declared legally dead (appropriately under the law). When he finally showed up in court, he tried to have the order overturned (https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2013/10/09/Man-unable-to-get-his-death-ruling-overturned/15901381332824/). However, there's a three year statue of limitations on having it overturned.

Having it overturned would mean that everything that occurred because of the ruling was undone (insurance settlements, property sales, etc.). That's why there's a time limit on appealing the ruling. What he could (and still can) do is simply file the appropriate paperwork to have himself declared alive again. So you have him LEGALLY alive until 1994, LEGALLY dead from 1994 until he files, then LEGALLY alive again once his filing is complete.

Apparently the problem is that he keeps trying to fight the ruling instead of just filing, and then after failing to fight the ruling says he doesn't have the money to do the filing. I believe he tried appealing again last year with a similar result.

In short, it seems he initially got some bad legal advice (I have no idea why his lawyer didn't tell him he was past the time frame), and has chosen to stick with it. This isn't a red tape problem as such, since there realistically comes a point in time where you can't reasonably undo all the actions taken as a result of the death ruling. It's someone being way too stubborn for their own good.
Legal reporting is very similar to scientific reporting (https://smbc-comics.com/comic/2009-08-30).

[Chronos]

Durkon has told us that the reason he became a cleric was that so he could eventually regenerate his mother's arm. She surely knows that. And Durkon has a very solid claim that he does, in fact, owe it to her. I think that we're going to see her try to refuse, out of her general stubbornness and refusal to accept charity and out of her devotion to her husband, and that Durkon is going to overrule her.

But not until after the battle with the remaining vampires. Because Sigdi will, in fact, have a very good point that she can afford to wait one more day, and that he'll need every spell he can get for that battle.

[zimmerwald1915]

[he] is going to overrule her.
Yes, I'm sure that is a thing that the Mr. Burlew of today would write.

[Rrmcklin]

I can see a situation similar to what happened on Durkon's coronation occurring: she refuses or makes a fuss at first for worrying him and taking a favor, and he responds that it's okay to let your son that you raised and took care off for decades to help you out with something important.

Tears and hugs may or may not follow.

[Emanick]

Yes, I'm sure that is a thing that the Mr. Burlew of today would write.

I know Rich is more aware of gender dynamics than he used to be, but if he decides not to have Durkon regenerate his mother’s arm, I don’t think it will be because he has an ethical problem with showing a man successfully convincing his mother to do her a favor.

[Fyraltari]

I can see a situation similar to what happened on Durkon's coronation occurring: she refuses or makes a fuss at first for worrying him and taking a favor, and he responds that it's okay to let your son that you raised and took care off for decades to help you out with something important.

Tears and hugs may or may not follow.


Durkon was never crowned. If you meant his ordination that was long after they had a fight about regrowing her arm (obviously).

[zimmerwald1915]

I know Rich is more aware of gender dynamics than he used to be, but if he decides not to have Durkon regenerate his mother’s arm, I don’t think it will be because he has an ethical problem with showing a man successfully convincing his mother to do her a favor.
The word used was "overrule," not "convince," "cajole," "out-argue," or anything similar. An exercise of power to enforce a man's sense of what is right upon a woman who disagrees, not an exercise of logos or pathos to get her to change her mind.

[Aveline]

I know Rich is more aware of gender dynamics than he used to be, but if he decides not to have Durkon regenerate his mother’s arm, I don’t think it will be because he has an ethical problem with showing a man successfully convincing his mother to do her a favor.

I think Zimmerwald was referring less to gender relations and more to bodily autonomy. If Durkon went on to "overrule" Sigdi's desire not to have her arm regenerated, then no matter the reason she wants to decline, regenerating her arm without permission would be a severe abuse of bodily autonomy.

If it was intended to mean that Durkon would convince Sigdi to accept a Regenerate casting, then sure. But "overrule" has a much more forceful and authoritative meaning.

Edit: Zimmerwald weighed in and was not actually talking about bodily autonomy but I stand by my point.

Edit: Oops, the person who said "overrule" wasn't you. Corrected.

[zimmerwald1915]

Edit: Zimmerwald weighed in and was not actually talking about bodily autonomy but I stand by my point.
FWIW, I'm in agreement with your second paragraph. The concern over enforcement by power is one that is shared between your perspective and mine.

[Peelee]

I think Zimmerwald was referring less to gender relations and more to bodily autonomy. If Durkon went on to "overrule" Sigdi's desire not to have her arm regenerated, then no matter the reason she wants to decline, regenerating her arm without permission would be a severe abuse of bodily autonomy.

If it was intended to mean that Durkon would convince Sigdi to accept a Regenerate casting, then sure. But "overrule" has a much more forceful and authoritative meaning.

Edit: Zimmerwald weighed in and was not actually talking about bodily autonomy but I stand by my point.

Edit: Oops, the person who said "overrule" wasn't you. Corrected.

Even though Zim meant something else, bodily autonomy is also an excellent argument against that happening. With real-world parallels to DNRs.

[Mightymosy]

Remember the scene when Sigdi saved some Dwarf with holding him with her one hand?
That was pretty darm close, I'd say!
Wouldn't it be a little easier to save people in such situations with two arms?

"Letting go" in the sense of letting Durkon or another cleric regenerate her arm might be seen as "heroic" by some - maybe by the person she saves next, in a situation where two arms are clearly better than one......

I can see her refusing, but then that would be a kind of stubborness I can't get behind, to be honest.

[Emanick]

The word used was "overrule," not "convince," "cajole," "out-argue," or anything similar. An exercise of power to enforce a man's sense of what is right upon a woman who disagrees, not an exercise of logos or pathos to get her to change her mind.

I was under the impression that you didn't mean "overrule" to mean a literal exercise of power, since that makes little sense - Durkon is obviously not going to physically force his mother to have her arm regenerated against her will. Rather, I pictured him "overruling" her by saying something along the lines of "no, overruled, reason A to accept a regeneration spell is more important than your reason B to decline the spell," and Sigdi accepting his reasoning.

There are two primary meanings of the word overrule - either to "reject or disallow by exercising one's superior authority" or to "reject the decision or argument of someone." The authority definition makes little sense, since Durkon has no authority over his mother, so I assumed you meant to reject Sigdi's arguments (he would not deny his mother the chance to make the final decision, of course).

I agree with you that The Giant is not going to show the (arguably) most Good of his protagonists violating his mother's bodily autonomy, but I can certainly see him arguing with her about it, though I wouldn't expect it to be a protracted disagreement or an ill-tempered one.

[FireJustice]

Well, gods forbid her to move on, after suffering an entire life withou an arm and making his son grow without a father.
Moving on is bad and evil, right?

The entire premise of rent-a-spell clerical spell is OK, too.
gotta pay those golden holy symbols and platinum statues somehow.

and lets not forgive a son who finally got the means to treat his mother.
who was a guard, and could even help him (world at stake... she's probably even-or-higher level than the other cleric that's gonna get ress'd anyway).

but yeah, waiting for "hell was right all along thread" at this point

[zimmerwald1915]

There are two primary meanings of the word overrule - either to "reject or disallow by exercising one's superior authority" or to "reject the decision or argument of someone." The authority definition makes little sense, since Durkon has no authority over his mother, so I assumed you meant to reject Sigdi's arguments (he would not deny his mother the chance to make the final decision, of course).
On the contrary, the authority definition is the only one that makes sense semantically. The rejection definition just amounts to "disagree with."

[Callista]

I'd like to see anybody try to convince Sigdi to do anything she doesn't want to do.

[Mad Humanist]

After today's episode I have the feeling that Hilgya will heal Sigdi's arm. I have the feeling that they are going to go off and become great friends and that is how it happens. I suppose it might even happen in time for Sigdi to play a role in the confrontation with the Exarch. Dunno - just wild speculation.

[Chronos]

To be clear, I didn't mean in any sense that Durkon has any sort of authority over his mother. I just meant that he's going to give a good enough argument that she can't honestly deny it (and Sigdi is not the sort to dishonestly deny anything).

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd like to see anybody try to convince Sigdi to do anything she doesn't want to do.Which takes us back to a comic where someone does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html). :) Sigdi was going to pay her back for that dress, and it took a strong will to get her to back down. :smallwink:

[Emanick]

On the contrary, the authority definition is the only one that makes sense semantically. The rejection definition just amounts to "disagree with."

I don't know about semantically, but it makes zero sense contextually, since Durkon has no authority over his mother.

But I'll drop this, since it's a really irrelevant point and I regret bringing it up.

[gatemansgc]

Well, he's about to go into battle with more vampires and the fate of the world is at stake, so I'm guessing he's not going to spend a high level spell on his mom's arm - and I'm guessing she'd be pissed if he did.

After, maybe. After the order defeats Xykon, probably.

i think that's what most of us are thinking.

also, he's gonna have to do most of the fighting. he's underleveled compared to the rest of the order due to the -2 levels and needs to get all the XP possible before the final battle.

[Emanick]

i think that's what most of us are thinking.

also, he's gonna have to do most of the fighting. he's underleveled compared to the rest of the order due to the -2 levels and needs to get all the XP possible before the final battle.

That’s not how XP works. Every member of a party splits XP down the middle, unless some of them are lower-level than others, in which case they receive a slightly greater proportion of it. In any case, how much of the fighting you do does not determine how much XP you get - there’s even an early strip where Belkar explicitly criticizes this system, IIRC, because Elan is getting as much XP as everyone else is, despite being practically useless.

[Kish]

Print-only content. And I think Dragon magazine.

[Mike Havran]

I believe Sigdi had a conversation about Regenerate with her 5 friends long ago. That Durkon can cast it for free now will do little to change her position.

[martianmister]

What if Durkon physically tortures his mother till she accept it? As they said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Fyraltari]

I believe Sigdi had a conversation about Regenerate with her 5 friends long ago. That Durkon can cast it for free now will do little to change her position.

That nobody will have to lose anything to make her life better will. She doesn’t want to live on anybody’s charity but she will accept presents as seen with the ‘new dress’ scene. There is really no sound reason for her to refuse.

[martianmister]

That nobody will have to lose anything to make her life better will. She doesn’t want to live on anybody’s charity but she will accept presents as seen with the ‘new dress’ scene. There is really no sound reason for her to refuse.

Not to mention they owe their lives to her. Regenerating her arm shouldn't be hard for them.

[Fyraltari]

Not to mention they owe their lives to her. Regenerating her arm shouldn't be hard for them.

None of them are Clerics. She doesn't feel like they have any obligation towards her so she won't accept them spending money on her behalf.

[martianmister]

None of them are Clerics.

They can collect money.


She doesn't feel like they have any obligation towards her so she won't accept them spending money on her behalf.

If she can accept gifts, there is no reason for her to not accept something they owe her.

[Peelee]

If she can accept gifts, there is no reason for her to not accept something they owe her.

And that's the story of how she got 25,000 gold from her friends and didn't raise Durkon in poverty.

[Fyraltari]

If she can accept gifts, there is no reason for her to not accept something they owe her.

And that would be relevant if she felt like she was owned anyhting.

"Och no (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html), ye dinnae need ta tell 'em tha!" and "Wha kinda dwarf would I be if I did tha? If I'n put my happiness ahead o' tha lives - tha very souls - o' five others?" show that she does not think she is. Which was foreshadowed a bit by: "Och, stop tha (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)t. I dinnae do nuthin' no one else 'er wouldnae've done".

[Dion]

That nobody will have to lose anything to make her life better will.

This is not a woman who needs two arms to have a fulfilling and meaningful life. Giving her two arms might make Durkon’s life better. I see no evidence in the strip that it would make her life better.

[Fyraltari]

This is not a woman who needs two arms to have a fulfilling and meaningful life. Giving her two arms might make Durkon’s life better. I see no evidence in the strip that it would make her life better.

...

Do you really think having two arms is not better than having only one? Do you really think things are not harder when you only have one arm?

[Verappo]

Also we know she's developing arthritis, so a little clerical help wouldn't hurt, regardless of whether it's to cure one lost arm or the other.

[Aveline]

...

Do you really think having two arms is not better than having only one? Do you really think things are not harder when you only have one arm?

It's complicated.

For one thing, there's a lot to relearn after having lived with one arm. How old is Durkon? Fifty-some years? That's a very long time for Sigdi to come to terms with a disability. Going back to two arms would probably not be the most comfortable thing in the world.

For another, it can be a sense of identity. Even putting aside the personal significance of her sacrifices, having a disability is often an establishing factor in one's relationships. Getting healed would change one's social dynamics - and not necessarily for the better.

If you asked me if I would want to have my arm regenerated, I wouldn't have a clear answer for you.

[martianmister]

And that's the story of how she got 25,000 gold from her friends and didn't raise Durkon in poverty.

She didn't raise him in poverty.


And that would be relevant if she felt like she was owned anyhting.

"Och no (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1129.html), ye dinnae need ta tell 'em tha!" and "Wha kinda dwarf would I be if I did tha? If I'n put my happiness ahead o' tha lives - tha very souls - o' five others?" show that she does not think she is. Which was foreshadowed a bit by: "Och, stop tha (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0947.html)t. I dinnae do nuthin' no one else 'er wouldnae've done".

They still owe their lives to her, despite how much she deny it.

[Mightymosy]

This is not a woman who needs two arms to have a fulfilling and meaningful life. Giving her two arms might make Durkon’s life better. I see no evidence in the strip that it would make her life better.

....until someone falls off a cliff because she would have needed TWO hands to hold them.

Then her life would probably suck because she would feel guilty.


Also, I don't buy the "feel uncomfortable with two arms all of a sudden" line of reasoning.
This is magical christmas land where her son can bring back dead people to life, for example.
Maybe a little spell called "Feel better feeling whole again, simsalabim"?

[Peelee]

She didn't raise him in poverty.

Yes, not being able to so much as buy a few dishes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) without borrowing money indicates solidly middle-class. Possibly upper.

[Fyraltari]

It's complicated.

For one thing, there's a lot to relearn after having lived with one arm. How old is Durkon? Fifty-some years? That's a very long time for Sigdi to come to terms with a disability. Going back to two arms would probably not be the most comfortable thing in the world.

For another, it can be a sense of identity. Even putting aside the personal significance of her sacrifices, having a disability is often an establishing factor in one's relationships. Getting healed would change one's social dynamics - and not necessarily for the better.

If you asked me if I would want to have my arm regenerated, I wouldn't have a clear answer for you.
You have a better understanding of these things than I could ever (I hope) have and I understand that this is a complicated question. Relearning to use two arms would be a complicated process but not an impossible one I think so I am unconvinced that avoiding that transitional period would be worth not living the rest of her years with two arms.

As for the identity, again I cannot stress enough that I have not and do not know very well anyone with a comparable disability and I don't want to, herr, "ablesplain" (is that a word? Well you get my meaning) you, but if I remember correctly you were a child when you lost the use of your arm yes? While Sigdi was already an adult so her disability may not be as important a part of her personality as yours is of yours.


She didn't raise him in poverty.
Yeah she did. Or not very far above it, at least.


They still owe their lives to her, despite how much she deny it.
So? She doesn't want them to pay for her arm, what do you expect them to do? Tie her to a chair while a Cleric casts Regenarate on her?

[Aveline]

You have a better understanding of these things than I could ever (I hope) have and I understand that this is a complicated question. Relearning to use two arms would be a complicated process but not an impossible one I think so I am unconvinced that avoiding that transitional period would be worth not living the rest of her years with two arms.

As for the identity, again I cannot stress enough that I am not and do not know very well anyone with a comparable disability and I don't want to, herr, "ablesplain" (is that a word? Well you get my meaning) you, but if I remember correctly you were a child when you lost the use of your arm yes? While Sigdi was already an adult so her disability may not be as important a part of her personality as yours is of yours.

These are good points, and none of us can say Sigdi would really want. All I'm really trying to say is that although there can be benefits, there can be detriments as well, making the choice non-trivial.


Maybe a little spell called "Feel better feeling whole again, simsalabim"?

This, on the other hand, is trivial. I would categorically refuse any spell designed to permanently change my feelings.

[Kish]

It's complicated.

For one thing, there's a lot to relearn after having lived with one arm. How old is Durkon? Fifty-some years? That's a very long time for Sigdi to come to terms with a disability.
That's the time for a dwarf to become an adult, and as Rich showed with elves, he's not doing the stupid "actually their extended lifespans means they age to 21 just like humans and then stall there for decades or centuries" thing; it's not that long for a dwarf. Equivalent to less than thirty years for a human. Which could still mean the arm being regenerated would throw her off, but I'll be surprised if Durkon doesn't regenerate it, for my part.

[martianmister]

Yeah she did. Or not very far above it, at least.

Yes, not being able to so much as buy a few dishes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html) without borrowing money indicates solidly middle-class. Possibly upper.

I don't believe that someone like Sigdi would left her son to a life in poverty. And she had no problem with providing food for her guests.

So? She doesn't want them to pay for her arm, what do you expect them to do? Tie her to a chair while a Cleric casts Regenarate on her?

Their paying for her arm is a no issue; she would reject it because regenerating it would mean "letting go" of her husband, as she herself admitted. Whole money thing is just an excuse.

[Fyraltari]

I don't believe that someone like Sigdi would left her son to a life in poverty.
Based on what? She doesn't want handouts. If she doesn't think they were indebted to her she wouldn't take their money. The Thundershields are poor yes, in a lower-class sense, but it's not like they were starving or caveless. She would probably value "not being a burden on others" above "have some more nice, non-essential things".

And she had no problem with providing food for her guests.
You assume she paid for all the food all the time. It could have been that everyone brings a dish or two for everybody to enjoy or all six of them took turns providing (even though (I think) it was always at her place).

Their paying for her arm is a no issue; she would reject it because regenerating it would mean "letting go" of her husband, as she herself admitted. Whole money thing is just an excuse.
If that's true I do hope Durkon explain to her how stupid that is. Because that's not a proof of love, that's incapacitating yourself over survivor's guilt and that's bull****.

[Peelee]

I don't believe that someone like Sigdi would left her son to a life in poverty.

That's a nice thought and all, but when what you believe isn't reflected in the comic then your belief is irrelevant.

[Peelee]

Then they're not in poverty.

They're also not in poverty unless they're true scotsmen.

Seriously,youre drawing a REALLY ****ty line here.

[Jasdoif]

So? She doesn't want them to pay for her arm, what do you expect them to do? Tie her to a chair while a Cleric casts Regenarate on her?If we're really talking about an involuntary scenario, I should point out that regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) allows a Fortitude save to negate the effect, if the target chooses to make one.

[martianmister]

That's a nice thought and all, but when what you believe isn't reflected in the comic then your belief is irrelevant.

Because Sigdi was too proud to borrow money from her friends or let them to buy her son's hammer...

Based on what? She doesn't want handouts. If she doesn't think they were indebted to her she wouldn't take their money.

She gave up her own money to resurrect them, it's no more of a handout than her pension.

The Thundershields are poor yes, in a lower-class sense, but it's not like they were starving or caveless.

Then they're not in poverty.

You assume she paid for all the food all the time. It could have been that everyone brings a dish or two for everybody to enjoy or all six of them took turns providing (even though (I think) it was always at her place).

That would be unlike of her to get paid by her guests.

If that's true I do hope Durkon explain to her how stupid that is. Because that's not a proof of love, that's incapacitating yourself over survivor's guilt and that's bull****.

Hopefully.

[Fyraltari]

She gave up her own money to resurrect them, it's no more of a handout than her pension.
That's your opinion, not hers.


Then they're not in poverty.
Yes they are. There are two different mentions of her having to borrow money to make ends meet, and th fact that they were poor is what made Durkon* crash.



That would be unlike of her to get paid by her guests.
Whoever said that?


Hopefully.
I'm glad we can agree on that.

[martianmister]

That's your opinion, not hers.

That's not an opinion, it's a fact. She had that money, she gave that money.

Yes they are. There are two different mentions of her having to borrow money to make ends meet, and th fact that they were poor is what made Durkon* crash.

Is that "first world" version of poverty? Where I am from, you need to be unable to provide your basic needs to be counted as "in poverty."

Whoever said that?

You said that "all six of them took turns providing" the food.

[hroþila]

This is the most literal case of "arguing semantics" I've ever seen.

[Aveline]

Is that "first world" version of poverty? Where I am from, you need to be unable to provide your basic needs to be counted as "in poverty."

"Sorry the stew is so thin t'day. I ran outta turnips on Tuesday, and me pension dinna come 'til t'morrow." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html) That sounds like a periodic struggle to eat.

[Fyraltari]

That's not an opinion, it's a fact. She had that money, she gave that money.
And it doesn't matter one jolt since she doesn't see it that way. That's the thing with debts, you are only indebted if your benefactors wants you to be.


Is that "first world" version of poverty? Where I am from, you need to be unable to provide your basic needs to be counted as "in poverty."
I believe we've both made our positions clear. If Sigdi was willing to accept financial aid from the dinner party five she and durkon would have a higher standard of living.



You said that "all six of them took turns providing" the food.
Yeah so if next time I invite friends over and we agree that it's [friend]'s turn to bring the food, I'm not getting paid. I don't see how that's ambiguous.

[martianmister]

And it doesn't matter one jolt since she doesn't see it that way. That's the thing with debts, you are only indebted if your benefactors wants you to be.

I don't think she literally believes that. She's just too humble.

I believe we've both made our positions clear. If Sigdi was willing to accept financial aid from the dinner party five she and durkon would have a higher standard of living.

I think they can live with Sigdi's pension without falling into poverty.

Yeah so if next time I invite friends over and we agree that it's [friend]'s turn to bring the food, I'm not getting paid. I don't see how that's ambiguous.

I translated it wrong. By paid I meant helping her for the food.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think she literally believes that. She's just too humble.
Same difference.



I think they can live with Sigdi's pension without falling into poverty.
You keep avoiding the point. If she was willing to let them by her stuff they wouldn't struggle to make ends meet.



I translated it wrong. By paid I meant helping her for the food.

Why on Earth not?

[Peelee]

You keep avoiding the point.

She's not avoiding the point, she's just defining poverty as homelessness.

[Fyraltari]

She's not avoiding the point, she's just defining poverty as homelessness.

I've yet to see her adress the inconstitency between claiming that Sigdi only refused to have them pay for her arm because of how she lost it (and not because she doesn't want to take their money) and her and Durkon struggling financially.

[Elanasaurus]

So have the five repaid the money by this point in the comic?

[KorvinStarmast]

You can't put a price on the love of your extended/adopted family.
I pretty much don't understand that question.

[eilandesq]

I suspect that Durkon will raise the issue, Sigdi will refuse, and Elan--standing nearby--will suggest to her that having Durkon cast Regenerate on her arm will be the fulfillment of Durkon's hero's journey that was first started by Durkon deciding to become a cleric so that one day he could cast that spell, and that denying him this wish would be crushing to him. Sigdi reluctantly agrees, then whispers in Durkon's ear that she doesn't want to upset the nice dim human boy by arguing with him. Durkon decides that any old port in a storm is a good one and regenerates Sigdi's arm without further discussion.

[Chronos]

I was raised in poverty, literally: When I was young, my family was well below the official poverty line. We were never at risk of being homeless, since despite a low income, Mom owned our house free and clear. And we didn't struggle much with food, because a lot of what we ate came from Mom's garden. But we did struggle with the gas bill in the winter (especially since Mom's house is old and very inefficient), and we had basically no luxuries.

Durkon's upbringing looks like mine, minus the gardening. So yes, he was raised in poverty.

[martianmister]

I've yet to see her adress the inconstitency between claiming that Sigdi only refused to have them pay for her arm because of how she lost it (and not because she doesn't want to take their money) and her and Durkon struggling financially.

Where is the inconsistency? Sigdi don't want to be a burden to her friends, so she only ask their help in extraordinary cicumstances (like the break of her dishes). That doesn't mean that Durkon growed up in poverty, or Sigdi is too proud to heal herself.

[Peelee]

Where is the inconsistency? Sigdi don't want to be a burden to her friends, so she only ask their help in extraordinary cicumstances (like the break of her dishes). That doesn't mean that Durkon growed up in poverty, or Sigdi is too proud to heal herself.

A.) She never asked for their help that we know of.
2.) If dishes breaking is an extraordinary circumstance that requires her to ask for help she is otherwise too proud to ask for, then by your own logic they live in poverty.

[CJG]

To answer the OP: I think Durkon will offer and Sigdi refuse, but I don’t think that would be the end. Part of this arc has been Durkon realizing that your worst day doesn’t define you, and that you don’t have to stuff feelings away. Perhaps he will alight some clerical wisdom on his mum. Suggesting that it’s no sin to regenerate the arm, that she can still hold tight to her husband, or move past it and those are ok things. Whether that will change her mind I don’t know, but I think Sigdi needs someone to tell her that self care isn’t selfish.

[Emanick]

To answer the OP: I think Durkon will offer and Sigdi refuse, but I don’t think that would be the end. Part of this arc has been Durkon realizing that your worst day doesn’t define you, and that you don’t have to stuff feelings away. Perhaps he will alight some clerical wisdom on his mum. Suggesting that it’s no sin to regenerate the arm, that she can still hold tight to her husband, or move past it and those are ok things. Whether that will change her mind I don’t know, but I think Sigdi needs someone to tell her that self care isn’t selfish.

I like this idea more than any of the others I've read.

OOTS is about the main characters growing as people. All of the other party members with parents have demonstrated the ability to grow past their parents' shortcomings. Durkon, whose parent seems to have the fewest shortcomings, faces the highest bar in doing that, but he still needs to demonstrate his maturity and growth. Being able to teach his mother something as a direct result of his character growth would accomplish that. And if he puts it the way you did, it would not dishonor Sigdi's autonomy or her love for her deceased husband in the least.

[Rrmcklin]

Honestly, the idea that she would refuse because it would mean she had "let go" doesn't resonate with me at all.

Probably because the reason she hadn't done so was stated as due to lack of money on her part, and yes, she hadn't told Durkon everything there, but I still see no reason to doubt it. The idea that she would see getting another arm as "letting go" doesn't come from her at all, but as reinterpreting the meaning of an admittedly meaningful line.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more her refusing at first would seem like a waste of time. It's not necessary for any such moment to be powerful.

[Kish]

I agree with Rrmcklin. At absolute most, she might dissuade him from spending a seventh-level spell slot before he goes to stop the vampires.

[martianmister]

But it also explains why she didn't regenerate her arm after the incident but before the cave-in.

[Fyraltari]

Where is the inconsistency? Sigdi don't want to be a burden to her friends, so she only ask their help in extraordinary cicumstances (like the break of her dishes). That doesn't mean that Durkon growed up in poverty, or Sigdi is too proud to heal herself.
Peelee already adressed this but since when is breaking dishes extraodinary? Especially since she would have needed time to adapt to having to do everything with one arm fewer.

But it also explains why she didn't regenerate her arm after the incident but before the cave-in.
We already have an explanation for that. No Cleric in Firmament could cast Regenarate at the time. She'd have to go to the capital.

EDIT: Also Thirden and the others died of gas poisining not a cave-in.

[martianmister]

We already have an explanation for that. No Cleric in Firmament could cast Regenarate at the time. She'd have to go to the capital.

There was a cleric who can cast Raise Dead right there.

[Peelee]

There was a cleric who can cast Raise Dead right there.

OK, really didn't think I'd ever need to explain this, but Raise Dead is not Regenerate. Raise Dead raises the dead, while Regenerate regenerates. They are, uh, different.

[Fyraltari]

There was a cleric who can cast Raise Dead right there.
So? She didn't need a Raise Dead (level 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)), she needed Regenerate (level 7 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm)).

[martianmister]

So? She didn't need a Raise Dead (level 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm)), she needed Regenerate (level 7 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm)).

Poor Sigdi, she missed her chance by two levels.

[D.One]

OK, really didn't think I'd ever need to explain this, but Raise Dead is not Regenerate. Raise Dead raises the dead, while Regenerate regenerates. They are, uh, different.

And Fireball fires a ball...


:vaarsuvius: <("You are fired!") O

Infamy is strong in this one.

[zimmerwald1915]

Poor Sigdi, she missed her chance by two levels.
Four character levels. Two spell levels. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html)

[Seward]

Not having enough money to pay for it sounds like a way.

Yeah. While there's no material component like with Raise Dead, getting a 7th level spell cast isn't cheap if you aren't friends/relative of the spellcaster.

[eilandesq]

Yeah. While there's no material component like with Raise Dead, getting a 7th level spell cast isn't cheap if you aren't friends/relative of the spellcaster.

Book value to cast a 7th level spell is (70 GP x caster level), which would fall into the 900-1000 GP range for Durkon depending on what his caster level is after Hilgya's tantrum. By comparison, a scroll of that spell at minimum caster level would be 2,275 GP. So definitely a bit pricey on a fixed income.

[Mightymosy]

These are good points, and none of us can say Sigdi would really want. All I'm really trying to say is that although there can be benefits, there can be detriments as well, making the choice non-trivial.



This, on the other hand, is trivial. I would categorically refuse any spell designed to permanently change my feelings.

The point was not about mindcontrol spells or the like.

My point is that the spell Regenerate is a magical fantasy that we don't have access to in real life.
That's why I don't buy that it would have the same kind of limitation like real life "equivalents", like surgery, would have.

For comparison: Roy is dead for several months. The only effect this has on him in this regard is that he falls over his feet once (!) and then gets along fine.
In our world, we cannot heal from death at all.

So, I think it is a VERY reasonable expectation that - unlike real world re-attachment surgery - the Regeneration MAGIC in OotS world would allow people to control their lost organs fine and well.
And if it feels strange at first, there might be Magic to help. Like we have painkiller meds in our world, but better.

[Aveline]

You have missed my point, and I don't much feel like endeavouring to explain it to you.

[D.One]

To answer the OP: I think Durkon will offer and Sigdi refuse, but I don’t think that would be the end. Part of this arc has been Durkon realizing that your worst day doesn’t define you, and that you don’t have to stuff feelings away. Perhaps he will alight some clerical wisdom on his mum. Suggesting that it’s no sin to regenerate the arm, that she can still hold tight to her husband, or move past it and those are ok things. Whether that will change her mind I don’t know, but I think Sigdi needs someone to tell her that self care isn’t selfish.

I like this one. It aligns quite well with the character growth seen so far.


I agree with Rrmcklin. At absolute most, she might dissuade him from spending a seventh-level spell slot before he goes to stop the vampires.

I also agree here. Since his level is reduced now, a 7th level spell slot may be a very precious resource in the fight to come, and can see they postponing the Regenerate for after the fight.

However, What If Durkon uses a Plane Shift (5th level slot, he has probably 4 or 5 of those) to send Sidgi, Kudzu, maybe Hylgia and the brewmaster to Valhalla before the fight? That could spare them the risk of being undone, and also promote Sidgi's meeting with Tenrin.

[zimmerwald1915]

However, What If Durkon uses a Plane Shift (5th level slot, he has probably 4 or 5 of those) to send Sidgi, Kudzu, maybe Hylgia and the brewmaster to Valhalla before the fight? That could spare them the risk of being undone, and also promote Sidgi's meeting with Tenrin.
Hilgya: I don't want any of your pity, Durkon, and my son is staying with me!

Sigdi: I haff faith ye'll save tha world, me boy. An' I know you'll do yer best at it if'n I'm still here.

Firuk: Ach, yer na' shiftin' these two, lad. An' I ain't goin' alone.

[drazen]

The map in #1044l (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html) gives another possibility of Durkon fixing his mom's arm: they have an airship bound for the north pole. They could conceivable drop her off in/near Thane City with Durkon giving her the gold she needs for the spell & travel home.

Alternately, Hilgya is going to do it for her, despite Durkon having studied up to do it himself. Then again, maybe she won't want to give a second arm to the woman who just threatened to wreck her.

[Fyraltari]

The map in #1044l (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html) gives another possibility of Durkon fixing his mom's arm: they have an airship bound for the north pole. They could conceivable drop her off in/near Thane City with Durkon giving her the gold she needs for the spell & travel home.
I don't think they have either the time or the gold for that.

[Zenzis]

My 2 cents: we haven't seen that much of Sigdi, but she seems to be fairly pretty practical and possesses a straightforward wisdom. I can't see her refusing the regeneration on purely sentimental or symbolic grounds. Maybe because she realizes Durkon needs the slot to fight sure, but it would feel really weird to me for her to refuse without some reason grounded in practical benefit for someone.

[Snails]

My 2 cents: we haven't seen that much of Sigdi, but she seems to be fairly pretty practical and possesses a straightforward wisdom. I can't see her refusing the regeneration on purely sentimental or symbolic grounds. Maybe because she realizes Durkon needs the slot to fight sure, but it would feel really weird to me for her to refuse without some reason grounded in practical benefit for someone.

And I think that for all her obvious practical and straightforward wisdom, this is an instance where she chose otherwise.

While it is plausible that money was always the issue, I do not think that will turn out to be the case. I think Sigdi, as a veteran soldier who took particularly dangerous missions, could have cashed in favors and goodwill to eventually get her arm restored, if she really wanted a restored arm.

That she chose to not lift a finger to get her arm fixed is one kind of decision deserving one kind of explanation to her son.

When Durkon offers to do it for free because he loves her, we will find out whether the money was really the main factor, won't we? Because the old explanation will turn out to be true or a convenient cover for a deeper truth.

I think it is simple: She blames herself for his death. And her consolation is she never let go -- she was willing to pay any personal price to rectify her mistake. Her missing arm is living proof of this to herself, that she is worthy of that last smile.

[Rrmcklin]

And I think that for all her obvious practical and straightforward wisdom, this is an instance where she chose otherwise.

While it is plausible that money was always the issue, I do not think that will turn out to be the case. I think Sigdi, as a veteran soldier who took particularly dangerous missions, could have cashed in favors and goodwill to eventually get her arm restored, if she really wanted a restored arm.

That she chose to not lift a finger to get her arm fixed is one kind of decision deserving one kind of explanation to her son.

When Durkon offers to do it for free because he loves her, we will find out whether the money was really the main factor, won't we? Because the old explanation will turn out to be true or a convenient cover for a deeper truth.

I think it is simple: She blames herself for his death. And her consolation is she never let go -- she was willing to pay any personal price to rectify her mistake. Her missing arm is living proof of this to herself, that she is worthy of that last smile.

What are you basing this on? Again, none of that sounds based on what we've actually seen of the character, just the insistence there has to be some drama or "deeper" reasoning.

And we've already seen that Sigdi is specifically not the kind of person to "cash in" favors or good-will, even if she had such connections, which we have no reason to believe she does.

[Kish]

I don't think they have either the time or the gold for that.
Also, the airship is a resource they need more than they need one of Durkon's seventh-level spell slots.

[Snails]

What are you basing this on? Again, none of that sounds based on what we've actually seen of the character, just the insistence there has to be some drama or "deeper" reasoning.

And we've already seen that Sigdi is specifically not the kind of person to "cash in" favors or good-will, even if she had such connections, which we have no reason to believe she does.

As for your first point, if this is not a situation where someone might make an arguably sentimental and/or irrational decision in a genre tinted strongly by melodrama, obviously you are not reading the same comic strip as I am.

I think it is fair to say there is a consensus of Readers that Sigdi is hiding something. What I described does fit the facts we know.

Your second point makes sense. But it equally dovetails with my reasoning: if not having an arm is the necessary price to pay for very personal reasons, then gritting ones teeth and refusing all help for the inconveniences is part of the bargain/promise made.

[Fyraltari]

I think it is fair to say there is a consensus of Readers that Sigdi is hiding something. What I described does fit the facts we know.
Really? Because I had the impression that most people who offered their two cents on the subject were of the opinion that "I don't have enugh money and I don't want somebody else to pay for me" was sufficient a reason.

[Vinyadan]

I think he'll cut off the other one, too. When she ended up with only one arm, she saved the lives of five dwarves. If she will have zero arms, she will save infinite dwarves.


0 × ∞ = profit!

[Mightymosy]

You have missed my point, and I don't much feel like endeavouring to explain it to you.

You answered to me, missing my point completely, so I had to "endeavor" with you, but I don't like it much either, so......whatever. Have fun and bye


And I think that for all her obvious practical and straightforward wisdom, this is an instance where she chose otherwise.

While it is plausible that money was always the issue, I do not think that will turn out to be the case. I think Sigdi, as a veteran soldier who took particularly dangerous missions, could have cashed in favors and goodwill to eventually get her arm restored, if she really wanted a restored arm.

That she chose to not lift a finger to get her arm fixed is one kind of decision deserving one kind of explanation to her son.

When Durkon offers to do it for free because he loves her, we will find out whether the money was really the main factor, won't we? Because the old explanation will turn out to be true or a convenient cover for a deeper truth.

I think it is simple: She blames herself for his death. And her consolation is she never let go -- she was willing to pay any personal price to rectify her mistake. Her missing arm is living proof of this to herself, that she is worthy of that last smile.

I like this idea. IF Sigdi still refuses to get Regeneration from Durkon, I expect this to be a reason (other than a strategical reason to save spell slots for the battle vs the vampires).

This would allow for a scene where Durkon manages to convince her to accept it, in the sense that he has grown personally and as a cleric so that he finds the right words, and his relationship with his mother having matured to a point where she would even listen to him on that subject.
Along the lines of: "Growing as a character isn't just about gaining additional spell slots, but getting wiser and more experienced. A good cleric can not only cast high level spells, a good cleric can heal the souls of people with their words"
I can imagine that it would be Sigdi's character growth/arc in this story to realise that she doesn't have to feel guilty accepting a Regeneration.
We will have to wait and see

[Rrmcklin]

As for your first point, if this is not a situation where someone might make an arguably sentimental and/or irrational decision in a genre tinted strongly by melodrama, obviously you are not reading the same comic strip as I am.

That such things can happen is not a guarantee they will happen. Sigdi gave a reason for why her harm was not regenerated. Until given an actual reason to doubt that, lack of money which was a constant in Durkon's childhood flashbacks, I will take that at face value.


I think it is fair to say there is a consensus of Readers that Sigdi is hiding something. What I described does fit the facts we know.

People come up with headcannons for characters all the time. It's nothing new, nor does it mean I have to give them weight. You grossly overestimate how much popular opinion means to me.


Your second point makes sense. But it equally dovetails with my reasoning: if not having an arm is the necessary price to pay for very personal reasons, then gritting ones teeth and refusing all help for the inconveniences is part of the bargain/promise made.

Give me an actual reason to believe she's doing that, and I'll consider it. But you have not done so.

[Throknor]

I'm popping back in just to point out two things. One: They may have already discussed this through Sending. ("I leveled! I can now cast Regenerate like I've always wanted to!") Two: We've technically only seen the parts of the conversations they had that Durkon thought would influence Greg. They may have already had this discussion before his exile; he just didn't show it to Greg (or us).

If I'm correct that doesn't help on the will she/won't she issue. But I expect then either way wrapping up this loose end it won't take more than two panels, probably right before he leaves. Either
"Are you ready?"
"Let's do this."
"REGENERATE"
Zap.

or
"Are you sure?"
"I've made my feelings clear."
"Ok. Love you; gotta go save the world."
Hugs.

[Kish]

Really? Because I had the impression that most people who offered their two cents on the subject were of the opinion that "I don't have enugh money and I don't want somebody else to pay for me" was sufficient a reason.
Yes, me too. I'm going, "There are people who think she's hiding something? And aren't still locked in 'there's something about her name being on that wall' mode?"

[Snails]

If I'm correct that doesn't help on the will she/won't she issue. But I expect then either way wrapping up this loose end it won't take more than two panels, probably right before he leaves. Either
"Are you ready?"
"Let's do this."
"REGENERATE"
Zap.

or
"Are you sure?"
"I've made my feelings clear."
"Ok. Love you; gotta go save the world."
Hugs.

Logically speaking, either makes perfect sense.

My meta-reasoning, based on not the strongest amount of evidence, I admit, leads me to believe that the first is simply not going to happen, but somewhere in the neighborhood of the second. And a strongly emotional personal reason for Sigdi, one that defies normal everyday common sense, will be revealed. Eventually.

As a matter of storytelling, the missing arm exists for a reason. Poverty is not the reason -- we do not need a missing arm to show that. We do not need a missing arm for the drama of a missing father that was not True Resurrected, to save three strangers instead. We do not need a missing arm for Sigdi to tell a woeful story about losing the love of her life.

I admit, it is conceivable The Giant made Sigdi armless to strongly emphasize how tough and poor she was, and how immense her struggle was, and it was an interesting visual detail that appealed to him. My guess is, no, that is not what is going on here, that The Giant does not include such arguably extraneous details without a strong reason that makes sense to him, whether that is the in OotSverse logic or his own personal reasons.

YMMV.

[Fyraltari]

Logically speaking, either makes perfect sense.

My meta-reasoning, based on not the strongest amount of evidence, I admit, leads me to believe that the first is simply not going to happen, but somewhere in the neighborhood of the second. And a strongly emotional personal reason for Sigdi, one that defies normal everyday common sense, will be revealed. Eventually.

As a matter of storytelling, the missing arm exists for a reason. Poverty is not the reason -- we do not need a missing arm to show that. We do not need a missing arm for the drama of a missing father that was not True Resurrected, to save three strangers instead. We do not need a missing arm for Sigdi to tell a woeful story about losing the love of her life.

I admit, it is conceivable The Giant made Sigdi armless to strongly emphasize how tough and poor she was, and how immense her struggle was, and it was an interesting visual detail that appealed to him. My guess is, no, that is not what is going on here, that The Giant does not include such arguably extraneous details without a strong reason that makes sense to him, whether that is the in OotSverse logic or his own personal reasons.

YMMV.
His mother missing an arm is what drove Durkon to become a Cleric, as explained in strip 983, A Healer's Reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html).

EDIT: I do expect Durkon and his mom to tlak about for more than two panels (because what kind of writer would have that discussion happen off-screen?) but ultimately I don't think there is any mystery behind Sigdi not having had the arm regenerated by now.

[KorvinStarmast]

As a matter of storytelling, the missing arm exists for a reason. Poverty is not the reason -- we do not need a missing arm to show that. We do not need a missing arm for the drama of a missing father that was not True Resurrected, to save three strangers instead. We do not need a missing arm for Sigdi to tell a woeful story about losing the love of her life.

I admit, it is conceivable The Giant made Sigdi armless to strongly emphasize how tough and poor she was, and how immense her struggle was, and it was an interesting visual detail that appealed to him. My guess is, no, that is not what is going on here, that The Giant does not include such arguably extraneous details without a strong reason that makes sense to him, whether that is the in OotSverse logic or his own personal reasons.

YMMV. Five strangers, not three. (Obligatory Monty Python joke waived for brevity)

I will now indulge in raw speculation: I wonder if the missing arm is Rich's call out to someone he knows, either a friend or someone he met, who is a veteran (like a Vietnam vet, not to mention Iraq war was going on during the first seven years he wrote this strip, and ops in Afgh are still going on ... ) who lost a limb. Furthering on the guess, that person has impressed Rich with how they have handled that damned hard thing in life. If that were the case, Rich might not feel right about a wish fulfillment/magic return of the limb lost ... if Sigdi is in some way a tribute character ... this is a wild guess, and may have zero basis in the "why." There are a lot of wounded vets around.

[Draconi Redfir]

i always just kinda figured Sigdi just didn't want her arm back. That's as valid an excuse as any, probably more so.

[RatElemental]

i always just kinda figured Sigdi just didn't want her arm back. That's as valid an excuse as any, probably more so.

People usually do have reasons for wanting or not wanting things. Even if they don't know all the reasons.

[Listening Here]

I strongly suspect Elan would not advise Durkon to regenerate Sigdi’s arm before the final battle with Xykon. Storytelling logic dictates that if he did then Durkon would be tying up all personal loose ends clearing the way for a tragic final battle death. But if he waited then it’ll lend well to a strong happy ending montage.

[Jay R]

People usually do have reasons for wanting or not wanting things. Even if they don't know all the reasons.

Yes, of course. She doesn't want it back because she never let go. Down under tons of rock, she is still holding on.

[Peelee]

Yes, of course. She doesn't want it back because she never let go. Down under tons of rock, she is still holding on.

And she still would be. Regenerate doesn't dissolve the lost arm or teleport it back onto the torso. It just creates a new arm.

[Fyraltari]

And she still would be. Regenerate doesn't dissolve the lost arm or teleport it back onto the torso. It just creates a new arm.

Even if it would it would still be stupid not to regenerate her arm because of that.

[Angrith]

Even if it would it would still be stupid not to regenerate her arm because of that.

No, it would be illogical. People often think emotionally when loved ones are involved, not logically. From the strips we've seen with Sigdi, I could 100% believe that she doesn't want her arm back because that sacrifice is one of her connections to Tenrin. That said, I'm sure that eventually she'll let Durkon restore the arm. It just may or may not be before he has to leave to fight Xykon.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes, of course. She doesn't want it back because she never let go. Down under tons of rock, she is still holding on.

And once again I have to say: stop saying this is if it's her stated reason. It is not.


And she still would be. Regenerate doesn't dissolve the lost arm or teleport it back onto the torso. It just creates a new arm.

And more than that, she knows perfectly well he's living it up (in a manner of speaking) in Valhalla, which is why she probably wouldn't have brought him back even the Dinner Party Five hadn't of died.

I get that things like this are sentimental/not totally logical, but Sigdi's actually stated thoughts on the situation just don't mesh with the "she doesn't want to let go, and getting a new arm would be doing that" theory.

[zimmerwald1915]

And once again I have to say: stop saying this is if it's her stated reason. It is not.
:elan: That it isn't her stated reason makes it more likely. What is the drama in being open and honest with people?

[Draconi Redfir]

I feel like "Not wanting her arm back" is plenty reason enough to not want her arm back.

She doesn't want it back because she's good. doesn't need it. She's moved on without it. Forcing a new arm on her would be incredibly rude. that's all you really need.

[Anymage]

On a re-read of 1129, "I ne'er let go" is what Sigdi said when it was implied that she let go of Tenron. When the issue of her arm was raised, she said it was an issue of her happiness vs. the lives and souls of other dwarves. The arm's narrative point could easily be another thing that the money could have been spent on, to highlight the sort of dwarf that Sigdi is.

I'm guessing that Durkon will pick a combat useful seventh level spell today. (Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) is coincidentally a seventh level spell. However, unless Rich bends the rules for irony's sake, it doesn't affect undead.) The stakes are high, and Sigdi can handle one more day just fine. But once the threat is concluded and the dwarves vote not to destroy the world, two things will happen. First, in universe, the odds that Durkon will absolutely need all his spell slots the next day will plummet. Spending a seventh level slot on something his mom admits would make her happy has a much lower opportunity cost. And second, narratively speaking, the plot for this book will be in wind down mode. Having his exile ended and being able to tangibly help his mom out like that are exactly the sorts of things that Durkon would do at the end of his growth arc.

[Lacuna Caster]

I'm guessing that Durkon will pick a combat useful seventh level spell today. (Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) is coincidentally a seventh level spell. However, unless Rich bends the rules for irony's sake, it doesn't affect undead.)
Undead are immune to effects that require fort saves, but the spell specifies 10d6 damage even if the Fort save is made. Do they get immunity to the whole spell or just the instant-death effect?

[Jasdoif]

Undead are immune to effects that require fort saves, but the spell specifies 10d6 damage even if the Fort save is made. Do they get immunity to the whole spell or just the instant-death effect?Destruction doesn't affect objects, so undead are immune to the spell entirely.

[Lacuna Caster]

Destruction doesn't affect objects, so undead are immune to the spell entirely.
But that's the question. Does this non-object-effect immunity extend to the entire spell, or just the instant-death effect?

[Jasdoif]

But that's the question. Does this non-object-effect immunity extend to the entire spell, or just the instant-death effect?Pretty sure I meant "immune to the spell entirely" when I said "immune to the spell entirely".

[Lacuna Caster]

Pretty sure I meant "immune to the spell entirely" when I said "immune to the spell entirely".
Okay, but what's your reasoning there? Is this spelt out explicitly somewhere in the DMG or designer commentaries or what?

[Jasdoif]

Okay, but what's your reasoning there? Is this spelt out explicitly somewhere in the DMG or designer commentaries or what?The trait itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) is pretty clear.


Traits
....
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
....Destruction is an effect that requires a Fortitude save and does not affect objects nor is it harmless, so undead are immune to the effect...including that part of the effect that's conditional on failing the save.

[Lacuna Caster]

The trait itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) is pretty clear.

Destruction is an effect that requires a Fortitude save and does not affect objects nor is it harmless, so undead are immune to the effect...including that part of the effect that's conditional on failing the save.
But that's the ambiguity. The destruction spell can be argued to have two different effects, and only one of them is dependent on the results of a fort save.

I mean, if this is the convention in general play, I'm happy enough to go along with that, but the wording itself isn't 100% clear to me.

[Jasdoif]

But that's the ambiguity. The destruction spell can be argued to have two different effects, and only one of them is dependent on the results of a fort save.

I mean, if this is the convention in general play, I'm happy enough to go along with that, but the wording itself isn't 100% clear to me.The spell itself is the effect that requires a Fortitude save. ("Effect" is a pretty generic term; covering the mechanical results of spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, extraordinary abilities....) You can certainly argue that passing the save and failing the save have different results...both of which are dependent on the effect undead are immune to.

[Kish]

Also, this:


The destruction spell can be argued to have two different effects, and only one of them is dependent on the results of a fort save.
is incorrect. There's a result for passing the Fortitude save; there's a result for failing the Fortitude save. There is no result that doesn't involve rolling the save first.