Neutral Good Death Cleric?

[TheHighWayMan]

How would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?

I know the Death domain is commonly portrayed as for Evil Clerics, but after having a look at the domain I cannot seem to find anything particularly 'Evil' about it. Am I just missing something and if not how would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?


Edit://

I realise the Grave Domain is sort of the alternative to the Death domain for good clerics. However it only really works for Clerics who oppose the idea of Undead - not necessarily for all good Clerics. If you were a Neutral Good Aligned Cleric that was not necessarily opposed to the idea of Undead could the Death Domain be a viable alternative to that of the Grave Domain?

Thanks

[RogueJK]

Neutral Good Aligned Cleric that was not necessarily opposed to the idea of Undead

Does not compute. Undead are inherently abhorrent and non-good.

In all the editions, I can only recall off the top of my head a single example of undead that were anything approaching "good", and that are Baelnorns, which are elves who choose lichdom and sacrifice their afterlife in order to continue to protect and serve their families/clans.


Now, I could potentially see a Neutral Death Cleric, who isn't necessarily evil, but who views undead as a pragmatic means to an end in some situations. More of a detached scientist approach than a traditional necromancer. But even then, they'd need to be pretty careful not to cross the line into Evil while they're raising and working with undead. And finding a Death deity who isn't Evil but isn't anti-undead is going to be tough. The Good and Neutral deities tend to be pretty strongly adverse to undead.

For a Neutral Good character, Grave is certainly the better option. Besides, the only feature they get that specifically relates to undead or fighting undead is the 1st Level "Eyes of the Grave", which lets you detect undead.

[Man_Over_Game]

How would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?

I know the Death domain is commonly portrayed as for Evil Clerics, but after having a look at the domain I cannot seem to find anything particularly 'Evil' about it. Am I just missing something and if not how would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?


Edit://

I realise the Grave Domain is sort of the alternative to the Death domain for good clerics. However it only really works for Clerics who oppose the idea of Undead - not necessarily for all good Clerics. If you were a Neutral Good Aligned Cleric that was not necessarily opposed to the idea of Undead could the Death Domain be a viable alternative to that of the Grave Domain?

Thanks

There are a few things that definitely come off as "evil".

Notably, compared to almost any other Cleric option, the Death Cleric has proficiency in Martial weapons but not heavy armor. Additionally, its level 1/2 features are not about gathering information, improving magic, healing people or enhancing their casting; their level 1 feature is about shooting twice as many people, and their level 2 feature makes it so that when they try to kill someone with a weapon, they do it even better.
Translation: It is a better murderer than protector.

Lastly, the only spells in their spell list that do not benefit from or create pain on others is False Life, Antilife Shell, and Death Ward, with only Death Ward as a possibly "unselfish" spell.

There is the side note that Negative Energy is the literal element of Evil, and that all undead are canonically charged with Negative Energy (as referenced mechanically by the spell Negative Energy Flood), and combined with the fact that you have Animate Dead and Necromancy listed in several places on the subclass, it's pretty clear it's a mostly evil subclass.


------------------

Alternatively, if we're ignoring the lore of classes, the Grave Cleric has no effects that inherently harm undead, nor anything that even implies that undead are against the domain. The only mention of Undead in the entire class is that they can see undead magically within 60 feet of them, which is a Cleric feature provided by their belief, so it could easily be reflavored into their God giving them the ability to seek out and aid the undead.

Additionally, Grave Cleric abilities can work with undead perfectly with the way they're written. You can cancel a critical hit on an undead ally, guide an undead to make a powerful strike, and (at level 17) you can even heal undead by harvesting the souls of fallen enemies.

[1Pirate]

I would play it as though your cleric didn't seem to have any choice in their domain. They devoted themselves to a god and, for only-DM-knows-what reasons, said god gifted them Death Domain abilities.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Depends on the setting. You could play him as a less crazy Punisher like character. As Netural Good you aren't a zealot, but you honestly believe that the best way to protect people is to remove the threat. In this way you are basicly a caster focused vengeance Paladin. Instead of worshipping death, your god is like a jailer of evil souls.

"The only one who can stop a bad guy with death magic, is a good guy with death magic"

[apepi]

I played a true neutral Death Cleric before, roleplayed that Death is just a part of life. I am not sure how you could roleplay a good one though. It reminds me of how Spore Druids are described so I recommend reading this:


Druids of the Circle of Spores find beauty in decay. They see within mold and other fungi the ability to transform lifeless material into abundant, albeit so me what strange, life.

These druids believe that life and death are parts of a grand cycle, with one leading to the other and then back again. Death isn't the end of life, but instead a change of state that sees life shift in to a new form.

Druids of this circle have a complex relationship with the undead. Unlike most other druids , they see nothing inherently wrong with undeath, which they consider to be a companion to life and death. But these druids believe that the natural cycle is healthiest when each segment of it is vibrant and changing. Undead that seek to replace all life with undeath, or that try to avoid passing to a final rest, violate the cycle and must be thwarted.

Long Death Monks also use death in their background which could give you a some more inspiration perhaps:

Monks of the Way of the Long Death are obsessed with the meaning and mechanics of dying. They capture creatures and prepare elaborate experiments to capture, record, and understand the moments of their demise.
They then use this knowledge to guide their understanding of martial arts, yielding a deadly fighting style.

[GlenSmash!]

While I personally don't view necromancy as evil in and of itself (I might even argue it's just a good use of resources like recycling) The 5e rules call it out as specifically Evil.

Which makes this pretty tough.

[Ravens_cry]

There's non-evil and even good undead, so I personally don't see why there can't be non-evil or good clerics who raise them.
I'd talk to your DM to see if this was something that would work in the setting they have in mind, but I would allow it.

[Man_Over_Game]

There is one interesting alternative I just remembered:

The Dustmen. They're a cult of people who believe that life is a prison sentence, death is release, suicide is breaking out of jail, and the undead are the hired hands.

You yearn for Death. You love it. Cherish it. It is what you've always wanted. But you are to avoid it whenever possible in order to be truly forgiven.

However, since Death is denied from you, you try to "save" others by sending them to an early grave. You bring them swift "forgiveness".

[The_Hansard]

You're looking for a whorshiper of Jergal
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jergal

Either a companion of the pallid mask (undead hunters) or a scrivener of doom (clerics who record the names of the dead and how they died)

[MintyNinja]

I had a character that was basically, this, right down to worshipping Jergal. I had my GM switch Animate Dead for Speak with Dead to steer away from the undead-raising part of the Death domain. He worked well, and was a decent secondary-frontline guy. Got killed when attacked by a load of blights at once. Good times.

[RogueJK]

Well, there ya go. Non-evil, pro-undead Death deity.

[Prince Vine]

I don't remember the issue number off hand but in the 3e era Dragon Magazine had a great article that outlined the outlook and methods of necromancers of all the good and neutral alignments.

I will leave it to peopke with better google fu than me to find it or I may stumble across it at work but I can remember some random snippets.

Chaotic neutral necromancers are ofteb responsible for many of the wandering lesser undead as they may animate a skeleton to do manual labor and release it after the well is dug, item hauled, whatever.

Chaotic good tend to name their mindless undead and give them personalities and equipment and treat them as friends (think Chris Hardwick in Critical Role).

Lawful tend to create regimented battalions similar to the terra cotta warriors.

I will post if I find it.

[RogueJK]

I don't remember the issue number off hand but in the 3e era Dragon Magazine had a great article that outlined the outlook and methods of necromancers of all the good and neutral alignments.

I will leave it to peopke with better google fu than me to find it or I may stumble across it at work but I can remember some random snippets.

A quick Google shows it to be an article titled "Shades of Death" from Dragon 298 in August 2002.

[Malifice]

Depends on the setting. You could play him as a less crazy Punisher like character. As Netural Good you aren't a zealot, but you honestly believe that the best way to protect people is to remove the threat. In this way you are basicly a caster focused vengeance Paladin. Instead of worshipping death, your god is like a jailer of evil souls.

"The only one who can stop a bad guy with death magic, is a good guy with death magic"

Punisher is LE.

[Rusvul]

If your DM rules that all forms of undead and negative energy magic are inherently evil, in the cosmic sense: You can't. Death clerics are Evil. (This is the default 5e assumption, but I think it's bland and boring--RPGs are much more interesting, IMO, when you allow for some moral shades of grey, instead of actively avoiding any ambiguity.) Perhaps your DM could be persuaded to allow a "NE-on-paper" death cleric with selfless ideals who acts in the best interests of the people around them.

If your DM decides that undead are creepy and nobody likes them but they're not capital-E Evil "because ew"? I don't think it'd be fundamentally different from playing any other kind of character: I think goals, ideas, and personality traits are what make characters interesting, not alignment and class/subclass. You've set yourself up for a lot of really interesting tension, though: undead are creepy, and no-one likes them, and by extension, people probably don't like you.

Further, you've got internal tension: you want to do good things, but the means available to you are mostly pretty dodgy. Even if making zombies isn't inherently evil in a cosmic sense, desecrating a body is still generally considered a bad thing to do. Do you only raise animals? Will you raise a human if they consent (either before death or via a speak with dead)? Maybe you don't raise the dead at all, but you do use all kinds of unpleasant death magic. Why? Are you an ends-justify-the-means type? Perhaps you avoid the unpleasant magic as much as possible, and try to make death painless for your enemies. Maybe you're like the aforementioned Dustmen or the weird dudes in the House of Black and White in Game of Thrones, and you see death as a potential gift. Maybe you hate all the death magic, but like 1Pirate said, you didn't get a choice in your domain and you're making the best of it. There's a lot you could do with this idea.

[Malifice]

If your DM rules that all forms of undead and negative energy magic are inherently evil, in the cosmic sense: You can't. Death clerics are Evil. (This is the default 5e assumption, but I think it's bland and boring--RPGs are much more interesting, IMO, when you allow for some moral shades of grey, instead of actively avoiding any ambiguity.) .

Why cant you play an Evilly aligned necromancer, who genuinely thinks he's good (and has noble goals to boot)?

Give him a noble goal (liberate his people from a foreign opressor, or defend his homeleand, religion and/or family from an outside enemy, unite the people of the realm under a single flag to end all war and ensure a peaceful future for the continent etc). Have him genuinely believe he is good. He is a caring, kindly and protective man (to his own people and to his family).

He just uses terrible means (necromancy, murder, torture, terrorism or whatever) to achieve his noble goal.

History is littered with such examples, and there is nothing in the alignment section that prohibits such well meaning monsters.

[Rusvul]

That's essentially what I suggested in the next sentence. "Perhaps your DM could be persuaded to allow a "NE-on-paper" death cleric with selfless ideals who acts in the best interests of the people around them." I suppose there's a distinction between "necromancer but does good things with necromancy" and "necromancer but does good things with necromancy/murder/torture/terrorism,"
but the more non-necromancy Evilness you involve, the less NG it gets.

Aside from "how would you play a good death cleric", I think the other question at the core of OP's post--forgive me if I'm misinterpreting HighWayMan--is "what, if anything, makes death clerics evil?" To which the answer is DM dependent: either it's "they do necromancy, and are therefore evil" or it's "nothing, they're just creepy and nobody likes them."

[Griswold]

How would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?

I know the Death domain is commonly portrayed as for Evil Clerics, but after having a look at the domain I cannot seem to find anything particularly 'Evil' about it. Am I just missing something and if not how would one go about playing a Neutral Good Death Cleric?


I think that's pretty straightforward: play a cleric of the Blood of Vol from Eberron. Eberron's gods / divine-magic-giving-sources don't care what alignment you are.

Their primary tenets of the Blood of Vol faith are:


Blood is the essence of divinity itself.
The gods are evil and absorb the souls of their worshippers.
The undead are useful tools and have made the ultimate sacrifice (since they are bloodless they've lost their divinity) to continue serving the living.

I've played a neutral good death domain cleric who did things like raise the dead as mindless undead to do menial or dangerous tasks to relieve an oppressed populace. No danger to miners from cave-ins if you're just sending in some skeletons.

In addition, you spend your time spreading your faith. All of those other people are worship false, vampiric gods who wish to feed on their life force and deny them eternal life. You want to save them by liberating them from their false faith. And sometimes that means hurting people (especially the clerics and paladins who want to stop you).

As far as the spells and abilities granted, plenty of "good" domains (Light, Nature) give spells directed at murdering people. Death has false life, death ward and anti-life shell which are all defensive spells. Doesn't seem that evil compared with fireball. Heck, half of the spells given to Grave domain, the supposedly "good" equivalent are on the Death domain list.

[Sigreid]

If I wanted to play an NG death cleric I would avoid using animated or created undead and roll play the devotion to "removing the rot so the garden can flourish".

[ATHATH]

Wee Jas is a pretty chill/not-crazy LN god of magic, law, vanity, and death that DOESN'T wax on about how "death is inevitable and natural", "all the living must die", "all undead are abominations", etc. She's totally cool with you raising undead, provided that you don't reanimate them against their will and don't acquire the corpses that you reanimate unlawfully. You might want to check her out as a patron deity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wee_Jas.

You could also just be a cleric that's interested in the forces of life and (un)death and how to manipulate them. I mean, you're in the business of dealing with/causing death. Wanting to know how do kill/snuff out the life forces of others is just common sense, really.

[ATHATH]

I think that's pretty straightforward: play a cleric of the Blood of Vol from Eberron. Eberron's gods / divine-magic-giving-sources don't care what alignment you are.

Their primary tenets of the Blood of Vol faith are:


Blood is the essence of divinity itself.
The gods are evil and absorb the souls of their worshippers.
The undead are useful tools and have made the ultimate sacrifice (since they are bloodless they've lost their divinity) to continue serving the living.

I've played a neutral good death domain cleric who did things like raise the dead as mindless undead to do menial or dangerous tasks to relieve an oppressed populace. No danger to miners from cave-ins if you're just sending in some skeletons.

In addition, you spend your time spreading your faith. All of those other people are worship false, vampiric gods who wish to feed on their life force and deny them eternal life. You want to save them by liberating them from their false faith. And sometimes that means hurting people (especially the clerics and paladins who want to stop you).

As far as the spells and abilities granted, plenty of "good" domains (Light, Nature) give spells directed at murdering people. Death has false life, death ward and anti-life shell which are all defensive spells. Doesn't seem that evil compared with fireball. Heck, half of the spells given to Grave domain, the supposedly "good" equivalent are on the Death domain list.
Ooh, yeah, the Blood of Vol are also pretty reasonable, despite being labeled as "LE" in previous editions (IIRC).

[Ganymede]

I know the Death domain is commonly portrayed as for Evil Clerics, but after having a look at the domain I cannot seem to find anything particularly 'Evil' about it. Am I just missing something...

"The Death domain is concerned with the forces that cause death, as well as the negative energy that gives rise to undead creatures. Deities such as Chemosh, Myrkul, and WeeJas are patrons of necromancers, death knights, liches, mummy lords, and vampires.
Gods of the Death domain also embody murder (Anubis, Bhaal, and Pyremius), pain (Iuz or Loviatar), disease or poison (Incabulos, Talona, or Morgion), and the underworld (Hades and Hela)."

You didn't see anything evil in there?

[Malifice]

No danger to miners from cave-ins if you're just sending in some skeletons.

Just the danger of those undead becoming uncontrolled and going on a murderous rampage and slaughtering everyone.

Plus (3.5 and 5E) the fact that you're doing so channelling magic that is inherently dark, evil and soul corrupting... in order to force an evil tortured spirit to animate a corpse of a once living creature that probably isnt OK with you doing so, and creating a NE murderous monster in the process.

But hey! 'The ends justify the means' is basically the core tenets of NG isnt it?

[Particle_Man]

I don't know how you could do pro-undeath as 5e is written unless you narrowly focus on the welfare of the few good undead (I think ghosts can be any alignment?).

Anyhow, here goes: As an NG character focused on death you care about the dead person; if they had dying wishes (speak with dead might help here), unfinished business, etc., you try to fulfil the wish and finish the business (this also works for ghosts!), assuming that it doesn't involve hurting innocents (since you are NG). You also provide comfort to those left behind, and perhaps have a sideline as a particularly empathetic undertaker (I would take proficiency in Insight, as you try to see to people's emotional needs) and/or graveyard maintainance worker. You might also give free funeral services for children and the poor. The TV show "William and Mary" showcases Martin Clunes's character as one such.

Since you care about people, you want their deaths to be good ones (no that doesn't mean you try to kill everyone like a serial killing or spree killing sociopath - you are NG!). So you try to cure painful diseases and the like. Everyone dies eventually but they don't need to die in pain, or scared, or alone. You are a comforter. If they die of old age in a century, but at peace and having accomplished their life goals, that is fine. Mercy killing would actually be rare, since clerics are so very good at curing damage and almost any condition. Funny how things change when you make the world explicitly magical! :smallsmile: That said, palliative care still makes sense in some cases, since death by old age is still a thing.

A tenet might be "Live a good life, so that you may have a good death". If you encourage people to be good, they may be less likely to be tormented by their conscience or a fear of a hostile afterlife (a very realistic fear in most D&D multiverses!) when their end time approaches.

[TheHighWayMan]

Why cant you play an Evilly aligned necromancer, who genuinely thinks he's good (and has noble goals to boot)?

Give him a noble goal (liberate his people from a foreign opressor, or defend his homeleand, religion and/or family from an outside enemy, unite the people of the realm under a single flag to end all war and ensure a peaceful future for the continent etc). Have him genuinely believe he is good. He is a caring, kindly and protective man (to his own people and to his family).

He just uses terrible means (necromancy, murder, torture, terrorism or whatever) to achieve his noble goal.

History is littered with such examples, and there is nothing in the alignment section that prohibits such well meaning monsters.

Interesting point, this could lead to some pretty intriguing ethical dilemmas in a campaign, ie something along the lines of ... "if an Evil act is committed for Good reasons is it still an Evil act?"

Could be fun to role-play

[Malifice]

Interesting point, this could lead to some pretty intriguing ethical dilemmas in a campaign, ie something along the lines of ... "if an Evil act is committed for Good reasons is it still an Evil act?"

Could be fun to role-play

Yes it is still an evil act.

Alignment doesnt care about your goals or desired ends, only your methods and means.

You could desire the noblest of outcomes (eternal peace, triggering a golden age of prosperity and an end to all war, advancement of a religion and an end to religious conflict and harmony). That has no bearing on your alignment.

It's the means you use to achieve that goal that matters.

An evil person employs torture, murder, genocide and 'any means necessary' to achieve it.

A good person avoids those means and employs compassion, kindness, empathy and self sacrifice.

Plenty (indeed most) villains profess noble goals. That doesnt make them any less evil villains.

Contrast the Pubisher (evil) with Daredevil (good). Identical goals, background and motivations.

Vastly different methods.

It's why two rarely work together despite desiring the same outcome, and when they do there are conflicts galore before it ends poorly. They are morally black and white.

[Millstone85]

If you were a Neutral Good Aligned Cleric that was not necessarily opposed to the idea of Undead could the Death Domain be a viable alternative to that of the Grave Domain?
I played a true neutral Death Cleric before, roleplayed that Death is just a part of life.Undeath is a mockery of both. Which is why the Death domain should have been in the PHB with the fluff of the Grave domain.

Unless the setting is changed so undeath is somehow, as spore druids believe, "a companion to life and death". One way this can be done is by making the Shadowfell more like it was in fourth edition. Bar a few exceptions, every departed soul goes to this netherworld, wandering the place as a ghost, or other undead, until it finds its way to the Astral, where it is then reborn in a celestial or fiendish body. Undeath is thus part of the cosmic program, and there could even be Shadowfell druids.

[Lyracian]

Players handbook has Nephthys, Goddess of death and Grief as CG with Death domain and Anubis who is LN.

Page 298 has the text
And Nephthys is a chaotic good goddess of mourning. Thus, although most clerics of Death domain (found in the Dungeon Master's Guide) are
villainous characters, clerics who serve Anubis or Nephthys need not be.

Not sure the best way of Role-Playing them but it should be possible to play a NG Cleric with Death domain.

[RogueJK]

I don't know how you could do pro-undeath as 5e is written unless you narrowly focus on the welfare of the few good undead (I think ghosts can be any alignment?).

Anyhow, here goes: As an NG character focused on death you care about the dead person; if they had dying wishes (speak with dead might help here), unfinished business, etc., you try to fulfil the wish and finish the business (this also works for ghosts!), assuming that it doesn't involve hurting innocents (since you are NG). You also provide comfort to those left behind, and perhaps have a sideline as a particularly empathetic undertaker (I would take proficiency in Insight, as you try to see to people's emotional needs) and/or graveyard maintainance worker. You might also give free funeral services for children and the poor. The TV show "William and Mary" showcases Martin Clunes's character as one such.

Since you care about people, you want their deaths to be good ones (no that doesn't mean you try to kill everyone like a serial killing or spree killing sociopath - you are NG!). So you try to cure painful diseases and the like. Everyone dies eventually but they don't need to die in pain, or scared, or alone. You are a comforter. If they die of old age in a century, but at peace and having accomplished their life goals, that is fine. Mercy killing would actually be rare, since clerics are so very good at curing damage and almost any condition. Funny how things change when you make the world explicitly magical! :smallsmile: That said, palliative care still makes sense in some cases, since death by old age is still a thing.

A tenet might be "Live a good life, so that you may have a good death". If you encourage people to be good, they may be less likely to be tormented by their conscience or a fear of a hostile afterlife (a very realistic fear in most D&D multiverses!) when their end time approaches.

What you've just described is the Grave domain. It views death as part of the "circle of life", and is focused on easing suffering and helping folks transition to death. Picture the stereotypical compassionate village priest/midwife/nurse/undertaker, who aids with childbirth, heals the sick and injured, eases the pain of the dying, and presides over funerals and burials.

The Death domain, as written, is specifically about pain, brutal death, undeath, and necrotic/negative energy.

[Griswold]

Ooh, yeah, the Blood of Vol are also pretty reasonable, despite being labeled as "LE" in previous editions (IIRC).

Yeah, Blood of Vol as a religion is LE in 3.5. But that doesn't particularly matter because in Eberron clerics can be of any alignment. Also, the Blood of Vol doesn't worship a god, so there's no individual enforcing an alignment. In 5E, Blood of Vol is listed as a LN religion, which makes a lot more sense.

I'm not sold on the undead = bad morality especially in the morally gray noir world of Eberron. It sounds like a smear campaign committed by the elves of Aerenal, who hated the House of Vol for using negative energy to create undead. Claiming it's "obviously evil" because some undead feed off the life force of the living. Unlike the wonderful perfect Undying Court which uses positive energy to create totally-not-undead. And then the Undying Court lives off the worship of their descendants, which is also totally different than drinking blood. Oh yeah and they deny large swathes of their population immortality because there's not enough positive energy to go around.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I built a NG Necromancer, and the backstory was there was a notably prosperous area, and she was raising zombies and skeletons to be farm hands, fix buildings, and do other tasks, and people volunteered to allow her to use their bodies after they were dead for the common good of everyone, and I played her as a perky and optimistic scientist who had found a very pragmatic way to use wasted resources (i.e., corpses).

[Millstone85]

My problem with the walking dead as a workforce is that it would make a whole lot more sense to build golems. Easier to control, as long as they aren't heavily damaged, and surely much more hygienic, both because they run on clean elemental energy and because they aren't made of flesh (except for flesh golems, obviously).

Oh, and you don't get to see grandma as an automatic door opener. Even if you are convinced that the soul has wholly left this mortal vessel behind, it is still unsettling.

[Hail Tempus]

I built a NG Necromancer, and the backstory was there was a notably prosperous area, and she was raising zombies and skeletons to be farm hands, fix buildings, and do other tasks, and people volunteered to allow her to use their bodies after they were dead for the common good of everyone, and I played her as a perky and optimistic scientist who had found a very pragmatic way to use wasted resources (i.e., corpses). But you're still increasing the evil in the world by taking a twisted, tortured spirit and cramming it into a murder-bot that will kill the living if you ever forget or are unable to refresh your control of it.

Putting aside the philosophical or moral questions of raising undead, they are an inherently dangerous creation, and you're putting others at risk by raising them. I don't see that as something a good person would do.

What would you think of a person in the real world who built an armed robot or a drone that would turn murderous if its creator forgot to reinstall its operating system every morning?

[Vogie]

The closest I can think of is the denizens of Amonkhet, who use mummified undead as their labor force, allowing them to live in a post-scarcity society and focus their lives on training for their Olympic-esque (but deadly) trials pursuing eternal glory. Anyone who dies in the trials is mummified to assist the survivors in training.
https://cdn1.mtggoldfish.com/images/gf/Sparring%2BMummy%2B%255BAKH%255D.jpg

Whoever is the person processing those animations is just doing their job. The Cartouches worn around the neck of the mummified undead make sure they stay in the bounds of society.

[NecroDancer]

Well playing a good necromancer all depends on the lore of your world. For example maybe not all undead are evil in your campaign. You can also choose to refluff the lore of the Death Domain.

One idea is that you worship a death god that wants to stop undead that want to live forever. Your god grants you the ability to make undead to aid you but on the condition that the zombies you make are returned to the grave (sorta like your renting the undead from your god). You would compare how you zombies to how other clerics summon celestials, how druids summon wild animals, or how wizards conjure elementals.

[manyslayer]

You're looking for a whorshiper of Jergal
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Jergal


Players handbook has Nephthys, Goddess of death and Grief as CG with Death domain and Anubis who is LN.

Page 298 has the text
And Nephthys is a chaotic good goddess of mourning. Thus, although most clerics of Death domain (found in the Dungeon Master's Guide) are
villainous characters, clerics who serve Anubis or Nephthys need not be.

Add my favorite non-evil pro-undead to the list. Evening Glory, goddess of love and undeath.
http://faerunian.wikia.com/wiki/Evening_Glory

Love is eternal, it should not be limited by the fleeting nature of the flesh.

I played a cleric of her in a 3.5 based LARP. I presented myself as a cleric of a goddess of love (and only slowly brought up the becoming undead to exist as long as one's true love does later). When I rebuked the undead that were attacking instead of turning them, the one player that caught that and knew the significance gave me the greatest look.

[Misterwhisper]

I can see a few ways to do a NG, but not with making lots of Undead.
Doesn't have to be evil or anything but I can't see it being NG with lots of undead.

I could easily see a follower of Kelemvore being NG, or even LG, but they are VERY against undead.

[TheHighWayMan]

But you're still increasing the evil in the world by taking a twisted, tortured spirit and cramming it into a murder-bot that will kill the living if you ever forget or are unable to refresh your control of it.

Putting aside the philosophical or moral questions of raising undead, they are an inherently dangerous creation, and you're putting others at risk by raising them. I don't see that as something a good person would do.

Playing Devil's advocate here, surely any sort of weapon could be viewed as inherently dangerous. The only thing that makes a dagger or the like not 'Evil' is how its owner uses it. Surely the same principle should also be applied to Undead? After all when one has control over them they are nothing more than a tool mindlessly following your orders. I cannot see what is particularly 'Evil' about that. Especially if it was a way of forcing Evildoers to atone for their crimes in death - a temporary servitude to allow their souls to go onto a brighter afterlife.

Now if you were to create Undead and let them escape your control that would be a different matter entirely...


Yes it is still an evil act.

Alignment doesnt care about your goals or desired ends, only your methods and means.

You could desire the noblest of outcomes (eternal peace, triggering a golden age of prosperity and an end to all war, advancement of a religion and an end to religious conflict and harmony). That has no bearing on your alignment.

It's the means you use to achieve that goal that matters.

An evil person employs torture, murder, genocide and 'any means necessary' to achieve it.

A good person avoids those means and employs compassion, kindness, empathy and self sacrifice.


I was under the impression that alignment did not so much dictate what actions your character took but more why your character takes the actions that they do.

Yes there are some actions that 'Good' characters will not even contemplate but 'Evil' charterers will revel in doing, but in the D&D world many 'Good' and 'Evil' characters will make the same choices as one another in any given situation for completely different reasons. Ie a 'Good' character may chose to slay his/her enemies to prevent the from hurting others (ie an ends justify the means sort of approach) while an 'Evil' character may kill just for the sake of killing.

Both make the same decision, but for completely different reasons.

[Misterwhisper]

My problem with the walking dead as a workforce is that it would make a whole lot more sense to build golems. Easier to control, as long as they aren't heavily damaged, and surely much more hygienic, both because they run on clean elemental energy and because they aren't made of flesh (except for flesh golems, obviously).

Oh, and you don't get to see grandma as an automatic door opener. Even if you are convinced that the soul has wholly left this mortal vessel behind, it is still unsettling.

That is something I have always wanted a lot more detail on. Golemancy, why dabble in i death and the moral objections it brings when you can make golems and clockworks. I can only imagine they would be much easier to organize and much safer even if harder to make.

[Particle_Man]

Playing Devil's advocate here, surely any sort of weapon could be viewed as inherently dangerous. The only thing that makes a dagger or the like not 'Evil' is how its owner uses it. Surely the same principle should also be applied to Undead? After all when one has control over them they are nothing more than a tool mindlessly following your orders. I cannot see what is particularly 'Evil' about that. Especially if it was a way of forcing Evildoers to atone for their crimes in death - a temporary servitude to allow their souls to go onto a brighter afterlife.

Now if you were to create Undead and let them escape your control that would be a different matter entirely...

I think that the point is that if the cleric dies (as adventurers sometimes do) then the undead go "free range" and start killing people. It is the need to keep maintainance over the undead in a way that one doesn't over golems.

[Rusvul]

Just the danger of those undead becoming uncontrolled and going on a murderous rampage and slaughtering everyone.

Plus (3.5 and 5E) the fact that you're doing so channelling magic that is inherently dark, evil and soul corrupting... in order to force an evil tortured spirit to animate a corpse of a once living creature that probably isnt OK with you doing so, and creating a NE murderous monster in the process.

But hey! 'The ends justify the means' is basically the core tenets of NG isnt it?

Bolding mine.

The "undeath is always horrible" thing is essentially built-in fluff. It's a default assumption of Faerun, sure, but like the Weave, it isn't present in every setting. If, in your DM's setting, Animate Dead works by shackling the soul of a dead person to their rotting corpse and burning their personality to fuel the shambling corpse of what was once their body? Then yes, I agree, it's a 100% evil thing to do, regardless of justification. "Good necromancer" is an oxymoron.

Undeath is not always portrayed that way. Sometimes, it's less "soulbinding and afterlife torture" and more "creepy recycling." In a setting where Animate Dead just lets you control a corpse, without any soul torture, it's a whole lot more ambiguous. Creepy, definitely, potentially unethical, yes, but black-and-white universally evil, no.

[Millstone85]

The "undeath is always horrible" thing is essentially built-in fluff. It's a default assumption of Faerun, sure, but like the Weave, it isn't present in every setting.Though, by 5e lore, the Weave by any name is also present on Athas, Eberron, Mystara, Oerth, Krynn, etc.

It does take a homebrew setting to escape such assumptions.