Astral Projection & Your "Second Material Body"

[Duke of Urrel]

When you cast the Astral Projection spell, you create an astral form that is connected to your material form by a silver cord. It is clearly stated in the rules that an enemy can end the Astral Projection spell by casting the Dispel Magic spell upon either your material body or your astral form. But if you traverse the Astral Plane in your astral form and then enter an alternate plane, the Astral Projection spell forms a second material body there.

A. My first question is this. Is your second material body (1) the same as your astral form, or is it (2) distinct from your astral form?

1. Suppose your second material body is the same as your astral form. After you traverse the Astral Plane and enter an alternate plane, your astral form coexists and is coextensive with your second material form. Therefore, an enemy on the alternate plane may end the Astral Projection spell by casting the Dispel Magic spell upon your second material body, which is also your astral form.

2. Alternatively, suppose your second material body is distinct from your astral form. After you traverse the Astral Plane and enter an alternate plane, your astral form either (a) ceases to exist and is replaced by your second material form or (b) continues to exist, but only on the Astral Plane, which you have now left behind. Therefore, an enemy on the alternate plane cannot end the Astral Projection spell by casting the Dispel Magic spell upon your second material body, because even if your astral form still exists, it exists only on the Astral Plane, and the Dispel Magic spell cannot cross interplanar boundaries.

B. My second question is related. Is your second material body the effect of ongoing magic that is detectable as a full magic aura, or is it the product of instantaneous magic that lingers for a short time as a detectable residue?

1. If your second material body is the effect of ongoing magic, any enemy who can detect a magic aura around you can get rid of you by dispelling you.

2. If your second material body is the product of instantaneous magic, every enemy who detects a magic residue around you knows that you can't be dismissed simply by dispelling.

The description of the Astral Projection spell seems to avoid answering question B, because it doesn't give any specific duration for spell except "See text." Since the text mentions the possibility of dispelling either by targeting your primary material body or your astral form, it implies that these bodies, at least, carry ongoing magic that is dispellable. But the text says nothing about your second material body.

C. What do creatures on alternate planes do about the high-level astral travelers they encounter?

If it's possible just to dispel extraplanar interlopers with the Dispel Magic spell, then it's a sure bet that a lot of the devils who patrol Baator and a lot of the demons who patrol the Abyss carry around wands of dispelling and use them to zap any stray paladin they see. If this possibility doesn't exist, this job description won't exist, either, though it's possible that some spellcasting Outsiders prepare the Banishment spell to rid themselves of pesky paladins on quests.

What do you think?

[Elkad]

A: It's the same. You project onto the astral plane. And then onto the alternate plane. Only the cord traverses the astral while you are materialized elsewhere.


B: Sure. But if you are identifiable as an outsider (relative context), people will expect you to be powerful enough to radiate magic anyway. And there are several ways to hide that of course (Mind Blank and Nondetection being the most obvious) if you are on some sort of stealth mission.


C: Banish/Dispel is of course an option. In the case of projection, they need to beat a presumable caster level of 17+, so cheap wands are unlikely to do the job. If you don't want to be dispelled, use plane shift instead. And of course as the native, if you dispel a projection, you've only briefly inconvenienced your target. Who may be angry enough to come right back and destroy you on your home plane.

The big worry while projecting is if you meet someone with a 2e Gith(yanki/zerai?) Silver Sword. Cutting your cord likely spoils your whole day by killing both your bodies.

[Duke of Urrel]

Thanks for this, Elkad. I seem to remember a thread in which people argued a lot over what the Astral Projection spell actually did. I'll still wait a while to see whether anybody posts an objection to what you've written. However, I have no problem with it if there seems to be no controversy about it.

What you say about the pointlessness or dispelling or even dismissal or banishment also makes sense. Now that I think about it, probably only Good Outsiders would ever be so gentle as to use simple dispelling to rid themselves of troublesome interlopers from the Material Plane. This is like letting them off with just a warning. Evil Outsiders who find invaders from the Material Plane will want to capture them, rob them blind, enslave them, and eventually torture them to death.

[Crake]

A: It's the same. You project onto the astral plane. And then onto the alternate plane. Only the cord traverses the astral while you are materialized elsewhere.


B: Sure. But if you are identifiable as an outsider (relative context), people will expect you to be powerful enough to radiate magic anyway. And there are several ways to hide that of course (Mind Blank and Nondetection being the most obvious) if you are on some sort of stealth mission.


C: Banish/Dispel is of course an option. In the case of projection, they need to beat a presumable caster level of 17+, so cheap wands are unlikely to do the job. If you don't want to be dispelled, use plane shift instead. And of course as the native, if you dispel a projection, you've only briefly inconvenienced your target. Who may be angry enough to come right back and destroy you on your home plane.

The big worry while projecting is if you meet someone with a 2e Gith(yanki/zerai?) Silver Sword. Cutting your cord likely spoils your whole day by killing both your bodies.

Considering the (relative context) part, I assume you mean extraplanar, not outsider?

It's also worth noting that a regular wand of dispel magic (CL5) has a 0% chance of successfully dispelling an astral projection (CL17, DC28 to dispel, would need to roll a 23 on a d20). That being said, many higher level fiends have greater dispel as a built in SLA.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I think Elkad has the right of things here. I just want to point out that the githyanki silver swords are updated to 3e in several places; manual of the planes, the expanded psionics handbook, and I -think- the DMG. The xph version is the most recent of those.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Even if you can cast it yourself, you should find some way to put a nightmare (ie, My Little Hellfire Horsie) under your unwavering control and use its (Su) astral projection ability. Note that (Su) abilities can't be dispelled, and due to the wording on disjunction, it can't do it either -- since it ends effects as dispel magic does, and dispel magic cannot end (Su) effects.

[Crake]

Even if you can cast it yourself, you should find some way to put a nightmare (ie, My Little Hellfire Horsie) under your unwavering control and use its (Su) astral projection ability. Note that (Su) abilities can't be dispelled, and due to the wording on disjunction, it can't do it either -- since it ends effects as dispel magic does, and dispel magic cannot end (Su) effects.

This can sometimes pose a problem for you as well though, since it makes it so that the only way to voluntarily end the projection is to kill yourself.

[Duke of Urrel]

This can sometimes pose a problem for you as well though, since it makes it so that the only way to voluntarily end the projection is to kill yourself.

I don't think this is a problem if the nightmare's supernatural ability works just like the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm).


The spell lasts until you desire to end it, or until it is terminated by some outside means...

The only real problem is that the "you" in this sentence is the nightmare itself, which has control over the supernatural Astral Projection effect that you lack. If you can't trust your trusty steed to end the Astral Projection when you want it to end, then you can end it only by "some outside means" which may indeed be very unpleasant.


You can bring the astral forms of other willing creatures with you, provided that these subjects are linked in a circle with you at the time of the casting. These fellow travelers are dependent upon you and must accompany you at all times. If something happens to you during the journey, your companions are stranded wherever you left them.

So you have to make very sure that your nightmare is "under your unwavering control," as MaxiDuRarity said.

[Crichton]

I don't think this is a problem if the nightmare's supernatural ability works just like the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm).



The only real problem is that the "you" in this sentence is the nightmare itself, which has control over the supernatural Astral Projection effect that you lack. If you can't trust your trusty steed to end the Astral Projection when you want it to end, then you can end it only by "some outside means" which may indeed be very unpleasant.



So you have to make very sure that your nightmare is "under your unwavering control," as MaxiDuRarity said.

Ok, new question. What happens to both your own body and your projected body when you, say, Shapechange into a Nightmare(or otherwise gain its Su ability), use it's Su Astral Projection, then either Shapechange into something else or let the Shapechange expire and return to your normal form? Since Astral Projection's duration is indefinitely or until certain predefined circumstances arise, does the effect end when you no longer have the Nightmare's Su ability, or do you only need to have it to do the initial casting?

[Duke of Urrel]

Ok, new question. What happens to both your own body and your projected body when you, say, Shapechange into a Nightmare(or otherwise gain its Su ability), use it's Su Astral Projection, then either Shapechange into something else or let the Shapechange expire and return to your normal form? Since Astral Projection's duration is indefinitely or until certain predefined circumstances arise, does the effect end when you no longer have the Nightmare's Su ability, or do you only need to have it to do the initial casting?

Just briefly, I thought I had a rules-based answer to this, but actually, I don't. "Ask your dungeon master" is my advice, and if I'm the dungeon master and you ask me, my answer so far is: "I don't know; I'm still trying to figure out which ruling would balance fun and functionality in the best way."

Your question raises another, similar question. Suppose you're a spellcaster, you cast a permanent but dismissible spell, and then you lose your ability to cast spells before you can dismiss this spell. For example, suppose you're a wizard and you protect your ally by casting the Polymorph Any Object spell on them to turn them permanently into something else. Then suppose you use the Mage's Disjunction spell to disjoin an artifact and lose your spellcasting ability. (You're having a hard day.) Can you still change your ally back to their natural form by dismissing the Polymorph Any Object spell? Good question!

UPDATE: I have a house rule that when you use a spell-trigger item to activate a dismissible spell, you can dismiss the spell only if you still hold the item. If somebody else takes the item away from you and is able to activate it, that somebody can dismiss your spell. For example, suppose you have a wand of Alter Self. If you use the wand to change your form and then an enemy takes the wand away from you, my house rule dictates you can no longer dismiss the spell yourself. However, if the enemy is capable of using your wand, they can dismiss the spell at any time.

If I apply a similar rule to spellcasting and to the use of supernatural abilities, my judgement is that you cannot end your Astral Projection yourself if you activate it while you are a nightmare and then are changed into something other than a nightmare. The effect is also not dispellable; therefore, you're stuck forever in your Astral Projection until you end it by some "outside means," which may be rather unpleasant.

[Crake]

So you have to make very sure that your nightmare is "under your unwavering control," as MaxiDuRarity said.

This can still be an issue if, for example, you get separated from the nightmare for some reason.

[Duke of Urrel]

This can still be an issue if, for example, you get separated from the nightmare for some reason.

Yes, indeed!