3.5 Dark Vision?

[Wolfswift]

Multiple questions about dark vision. I thought forever ago I read somewhere that creatures with Dark Vision only got the black and white see 60 feet in darkness sort of vision only if they were actually in the dark, and in light it was disabled so they could distinguish color and so forth.

1. If that is the case if my character is the only one in the party with only low light vision and needing light and has a light source, is the rest of the party forced to use normal non low-light, non dark vision unless they leave my light radius? Or can they see color in the light radius and black and white within the darkness outside it? Do they suffer at all from the difficulty to see in the dim light portions?

2. How doable might it be for my character to extinguish his light and take one of their hands to be lead blindly if we need stealth?

3. Another question, I had a past DM who ruled that enemies possessing dark vision disabled any ability for a stealthy character to hide in shadows and other dark spots at all. How much truth might there be to this?

4. He especially ruled this to include the shadow dancer's supernatural ability to hide in plain sight so long as they are within 10 feet of a shadow. I told him I saw that like they become one with the shadows and if the enemy can't see shadow then they can't see me. He said it made that ability useless against them and proceeded to throw only undead and creatures with Dark vision at me to disallow any sneak attacking and to especially disallow multiple sneak attacking in a fight. That DM didn't like my every hit to be akin to a fireball and have no limitations like spells per day or worrying about catching allies in the radius. But what about that ability? Another party member does plan to go shadow dancer this game, so it may be relevant.

[peacenlove]

1. Darkvision works in reference to you, not any light source. Meaning if you have dark vision 60' and holding a light source that sheds light to 20', then you see in color at 20' and the next 40' is in B&W
2. Darkvision still uses your eyes or equivalent sensory organ so if you are blindfolded, you cant utilize DV.
3. True. Darkvision negates any concealment created by normal (not supernatural) darkness or dim light.
4. False. HiPS and Darkvision do not interact at all. HiPS is usable regardless of the sensory capabilities of onlookers. If an opponent wants to disable some forms of HiPS, he should bring a stronger light source or utilize Dimensional anchor/lock.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1. If that is the case if my character is the only one in the party with only low light vision and needing light and has a light source, is the rest of the party forced to use normal non low-light, non dark vision unless they leave my light radius? Or can they see color in the light radius and black and white within the darkness outside it? Do they suffer at all from the difficulty to see in the dim light portions?

I've always ruled that they see fine and in color in bright light, fine and in B&W in full darkness, and have trouble distinguishing things in shadowy illumination; regardless of their position relative to the light source(s) affecting the lighting conditions.


2. How doable might it be for my character to extinguish his light and take one of their hands to be lead blindly if we need stealth?

It's an option but it's not a great one. Characters that cannot see are effectively blind and restricted to moving at half their normal speed as well as having not only their dex negated but taking a further -2 to AC from enemies that attack them. If the enemy is outside your darkvision, they can hit your buddies -hard- before any of you know what's happening. I'd suggest getting some darkvision granting items, having the party caster(s) learn/prepare darkvision, or picking up blind-fight for everyone who needs it ASAP, if you expect darkness to be a regular obstacle.


3. Another question, I had a past DM who ruled that enemies possessing dark vision disabled any ability for a stealthy character to hide in shadows and other dark spots at all. How much truth might there be to this?

In full darkness, that's absolutely correct. For shadowy areas, it's a bit more iffy. It depends on how a GM rules the interaction between darkvision and shadows. Get some dwarfblind stones to fix it either way.


4. He especially ruled this to include the shadow dancer's supernatural ability to hide in plain sight so long as they are within 10 feet of a shadow. I told him I saw that like they become one with the shadows and if the enemy can't see shadow then they can't see me. He said it made that ability useless against them and proceeded to throw only undead and creatures with Dark vision at me to disallow any sneak attacking and to especially disallow multiple sneak attacking in a fight. That DM didn't like my every hit to be akin to a fireball and have no limitations like spells per day or worrying about catching allies in the radius. But what about that ability? Another party member does plan to go shadow dancer this game, so it may be relevant.

That seems excessive. It's a supernatural class ability and darkvision doesn't penetrate magical darkness. The damage concern is overblown; a sneak attack is only half a fireball unless you -just- got into shadowdancer. Then it's 2/3. Even so, it's still got to actually hit and is only single-target.

[Maat Mons]

As far as I know, a character with darkvision always gets all the information darkvision entitles him to, and all the information regular vision entitles him to. Darkvision doesn't "turn off" in light, but it's rendered completely redundant by ordinary vision under those circumstances.

The interaction between hiding and darkvision is kind of murky. But on the plus side, there's always a Ring of the Darkhidden (Magic Item Compendium, p122). It only costs 2,000 gp, and it renders you invisible to darkvision, meaning creatures with darkvision can't see you unless creatures without darkvision would be able to see you.

[Crake]

Shadowdancer's hide in plain sight functions in the presence of a shadow. Whether person A has darkvision or not, the presence of a shadow is unaffected. Your ability to hide in plain sight isn't based on what they can see, it's based on what is physically around you. That said, another reasonable interpretation is that in total darkness, there are no shadows, only darkness, and that you need light to produce a shadow to hide near.

That said, you need to realise, hide in plain sight doesn't count as invisibility. If you're attacking from hiding, you become revealed unless you succeed on another hide check at -20 if you're playing 3.5. In pathfinder, it's just straight up impossible, and you need to move to hide once more between every attack, meaning at best you can get a single sneak attack per round. In 3.5, if you can succeed on your hide check at -20, you can keep attacking, but if you get spotted, you have to go back to hiding once more, and if you full attack, then you might have trouble with that.

If your DM is having issues with your hide in plain sight, it sounds like either a) he's not rolling enough spot checks for the enemies, b) isn't properly enforcing the hide rules, or utilizing readied actions for when you invariably reveal yourself, or c) hasn't thought to hit you with glitterdust yet.

[Fizban]

Hide in Plain Sight can be very dependent upon reading, especially when there are different versions of the ability that are worded slightly differently, or even worse, say "like a Shadowdancer" but with something other than shadows.

I read the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight as thus: normally you can hide anywhere with concealment or cover (such as dim light), but not from people who can actively see you, or people who aren't affected by that type of concealment or cover. Hide in Plain Sight allows you to ignore the fact that you are being actively observed, but doesn't change anything else. Which means if they have darkvision, you can't hide in dim light no matter how good you are at jumping behind a shadow- they don't care about dim light, so they see you again immediately. However, if you have some fog or a bush, you can hide while being observed even if they have darkvision (as long as there's enough light to cast some shadows). If you had to break down this mechanical ruling, it would apparently mean that the supernatural Hide in Plain Sight ability can overwhelm any sort of vision for a moment, but not continuously.

But that's just one reading. A DM could read "shadow" specifically as dim light, changing the conditions. Or as many people seem to read it, as a constant supernatural ability that lets you ignore the normal need for cover or concealment to maintain a hide check, rather than only the ability to ignore the "being observed" problem.

A quick search of the FAQ finds no further explanation of this, nor is it mentioned in the hide rules (under Movement) in Rules Compendium. So you're on your own.

[Wolfswift]

2. It's an option but it's not a great one. Characters that cannot see are effectively blind and restricted to moving at half their normal speed as well as having not only their dex negated but taking a further -2 to AC from enemies that attack them. If the enemy is outside your darkvision, they can hit your buddies -hard- before any of you know what's happening. I'd suggest getting some darkvision granting items, having the party caster(s) learn/prepare darkvision, or picking up blind-fight for everyone who needs it ASAP, if you expect darkness to be a regular obstacle.

First off, thanks for being the only one to respond to this one. I know it's not a great option, but my character technically is the light source and can disable/enable his light as a free action, so the only real danger is being ambushed and attacked before he gets a turn. Also, the dark vision spell! I totally forgot that one, I'm actually playing an Archivist so I can prolly get that at 3rd spell level from the ranger or possibly at 2nd spell level from a divine alternate sourced wizard scroll. But I will also keep an eye out for magic items that grant dark vision, thanks.

As for everything else, I think it all has a pretty clear consensus on how it works except how dark vision works in bright light or dim light. I can see from how people responded that those with Dark vision definitely see just fine through the darkness outside a light radius, but can they see perfectly in areas of dim light and shadowy illumination? That's what I'm most curious about now.

[Fouredged Sword]

Now, the comment about hiding in shadows may be referring to hiding normally using the concealment granted by shadowy or total darkness. In this case YES, darkvision negates this concealment and thus negates a character's ability to use said concealment to hide. Note, you may or may not be aware your hide check auto failed and a clever monster may fake being unaware of your presence to lure a squishy rogue into a vulnerable position.

[Kish]

As for everything else, I think it all has a pretty clear consensus on how it works except how dark vision works in bright light or dim light. I can see from how people responded that those with Dark vision definitely see just fine through the darkness outside a light radius, but can they see perfectly in areas of dim light and shadowy illumination? That's what I'm most curious about now.
Not perfectly--in that their view of anything they can't see with normal vision is black and white. That's the one way in which darkvision is inferior to low-light vision, and why really powerful races (like dragons) have both low-light vision and darkvision.

But if they only need to make out shapes, dim light or shadowy illumination is fine for that, as is pitch darkness.

[Fizban]

As for everything else, I think it all has a pretty clear consensus on how it works except how dark vision works in bright light or dim light. I can see from how people responded that those with Dark vision definitely see just fine through the darkness outside a light radius, but can they see perfectly in areas of dim light and shadowy illumination? That's what I'm most curious about now.
Nothing I've ever read in 3.5 indicates darkvision has to or even can be turned on or off, willingly or unwillingly. If there's light, you see in color, if not you see in black and white. In shadowy illumination you would see color poorly because the light is bad, but the black and white portion of your vision still works just fine so no miss chance, within 60'. It's just "totally not magic" eyes- your eyes are always seeing color and black and white, darkvision apparently gives you an absolute minimum of 60' night vision even when there's no actual light for your eyes to pick up.

As for what spell to use, if you have a sor/wiz that can get Ghost Lantern (Complete Mage, 3rd level), that's the main "stealthy light" spell. Or at 1 level higher there's Mass Darkvision (Spell Compendium) with the full duration, though it's sor/wiz again.

[Tamior]

So when exactly "black and white only" is actually a limiting factor?
You are trying to tell how ripe a strawberry is or what?

[Kish]

Humorous answer: You have six seconds to decide which elemental protection spell to cast as the dragon only you can currently see takes a deep breath. It looks black to you!--but right now, nearly all dragons would look black to you...

Serious answer: I think you greatly underestimate the amount of visual acuity that hinges on color differentiation.

[Fizban]

Any time the DM notices it ought to be a limiting factor. Monster description? Lose the colors- who knows what color of dragonoid it is, oh shame the bright unnatural colors on that animal didn't give away its being a magical beast. Loot description? Lose the colors- who knows what kind of gems or possibly even metals this stuff is made of. Is that incoming spell an orb of red or green or blue or yellow? Hey, how are you marking your potions and scrolls for quick access anyway? Oh look, a sign in an unknown language, shame you can't see the bright red color, might have gave you a warning. Most people don't spend much time trying to identify unfamiliar things in the dark where their color vision is out of whack, but it gets a lot harder.

The game doesn't give a penalty, but there's plenty of justification for it. But darkvision is the "um, monsters can always see so nyeh. oh and I guess dwarves and half orcs have it too" kludge- it's not meant to have a penalty so there isn't one. Because then someone would notice the monsters never have that penalty.. Low-light vision is a far more appropriate replacement unless the whole party is going to be no-light subterraneans.

[Doctor Awkward]

The conclusion I have reached after going over all the relevant rules that I could think of on whether or not Darkvision will negates a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is that it's irrelevant because the two abilities don't really interact.

Per the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill, two things are required to attempt a hide check:

1. You must have broken line of sight to the thing you wish to hide from. If a creature can see you, attempts to use the Hide skill against them automatically fail. As noted under Vision and Light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#visionAndLight) (PHB, pg 164), "A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover."

2. You must have some form of cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#cover) or concealment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#concealment) to attempt to hide. While there are specific rules for this, the general idea seems to be that there must be something that obscures the ability of the creature you wish to hide from to see you.

The notable aspect of these rules is that they are both entirely relative to each individual creature you wish to hide from. For example, if you are trying to hide in a dark corner of a room 60 feet away from a human with a torch and a dwarf, you will only be hidden from the human. The dwarf will see you automatically.

Darkvision is consistently noted in several places to interact with shadowy areas in a specific way. Most specifically, in the Player's Handbook on page 165 it states, "Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover." For the purposes of concealment, there is no difference between a darkened area and a brightly-lit area for a creature with Darkvision.

As is noted under the Hide (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm) skill, it takes two separate ranger abilities to clear these two hurdles. The first is the level 13 ability camouflage, which allows them to attempt Hide checks in any sort of natural terrain without the normally required cover or concealment. Then at level 17, they can attempt Hide checks in a natural terrain even while being observed. Thus a 17th-level ranger in natural terrain can roll a Hide check to quite literally vanish from right in front of you.

Applying this same logic to a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight (Su) leads me to believe that the ability does two separate things. The first is that it allows you to attempt Hide checks while being observed. Thus at all times a Shadowdancer meets the first Hide check hurdle.

The second hurdle still requires you to possess some form of cover or concealment relative to the thing you want to hide from. The ability also clears this hurdle so long as the Shadowdancer is within 10 feet of any shadow besides his own. So the presence of Darkvision in this case is not a factor, as the Shadowdancer does not have to actually be in the shadow to hide. He just has to be near it.

As far as I can tell, there don't seem to be any hard rules on when a "shadow" would be present for the purposes of allowing a shadowdancer to utilize this ability. They extensively discuss "Shadowy Illumination" when referencing light sources, and while the phrase "shadowy area" does appear repeatedly under the Concealment rules, these seem to be different terms for the same thing.

So whether or not such a shadow is present seems to be entirely dependent on the DM. If he rules that no such shadow exists, then a Shadowdancer cannot hide without having some form of cover or concealment relative to the thing he wishes to hide from. And as noted, no degree of darkness provides concealment against a creature with Darkvision.

I would also note that all of this is specific to the Shadowdancer, as other Hide in Plain Sight abilities may follow their own exceptions to the normal rules for hiding.

[Powerdork]

So when exactly "black and white only" is actually a limiting factor?
You are trying to tell how ripe a strawberry is or what?

Bad idea to embed, but to give you an idea of how disorienting it is to not have colour, look at development images for video games, where the models for the creatures and environments haven't been given texture maps.
http://i.pinimg.com/originals/24/3b/c3/243bc371ab77149594ac33825042c1e3.jpg

[tterreb]

If you're concerned about seeing in shadowy illumination or other forms of magical darkness you might consider picking up the spell ebon eyes (SC 77). Level 1 cleric, see in darkness magical or otherwise, no range limit. And you can see in color.

[Fizban]

Ebon Eyes sounds like it's unlimited range darkvision at 1st level, until you read the rest of the sentence, "does not otherwise improve the subject's ability to see in natural dark or shadowy conditions." The next one clarifies that it lets you ignore miss chance from anything other than total darkness. So in total darkness, you still can't see anything. It gives less effective vision range than Low-Light Vision (also a 1st level spell), but lets you ignore magical darkness.

And if you really want to be annoyed with lack of color, don't forget Blindsight. Dunno how much texture you can get from echolocation (ought to be pretty small), but no shading whatsoever based on photonic qualities. The "Limbo Souls" mod which renders everything in black and white based on distance only ought to be a good visual reference.

[ShurikVch]

3.5 Dark Vision?Dark Vision?
Dark?
Vision?
I'll show you the real Dark Vision!

Size/Type: Huge Ooze (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 13d10+39 (110 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (–2 size, +2 Dex, +7 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+20
Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d8+4 plus spell effect)
Full Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d8+4 plus spell effect)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Vision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm), engulf
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., damage reduction 10/magic, hide in plain sight, ooze traits, resistance to cold 10, spell resistance 23
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +13
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 17, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 17
Skills: Hide +8, Move Silently +6
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -