3.X The Marshal Knight tier?

[liquidformat]

So I am not great with the whole tiering system what I am wondering is if I put the Marshal and Knight together gestalt style what tier would said combo be? Would that just be tier or are the two together enough to pump it up into tier 3 territory? I believe it would be higher end of tier 4 but not sure...

[Silva Stormrage]

Marshal and Knight together would probably be about tier 4. It's not even in the particularly high end for tier 4. A barbarian 1/fighter X probably outclasses it in most ways. It certainly outclasses it in sheer damage output.

Marshal and Knight both aren't particularly good classes so combining them together doesn't help that much, there is a lot of overlap between the two (Full BAB good fort saves, etc etc)

Also remember the tier system isn't about raw power or damage or anything like that. Tier 4 is essentially defined as "Can either do one thing well but fails outside of that" or "Can do a bunch of things mediocre". Knight//Marshal has some skill synergy with marshal stuff and decent skill points per level but it's too MAD to focus on skills and it doesn't really get anything to help it contribute to a substantial degree compared to fighters or barbarians and it would be almost strictly worse than a crusader.

Also remember that something being a low tier doesn't mean it isn't fun or a good character. A marshall//knight sounds like an actually interesting character.

[liquidformat]

Marshal and Knight together would probably be about tier 4. It's not even in the particularly high end for tier 4. A barbarian 1/fighter X probably outclasses it in most ways. It certainly outclasses it in sheer damage output.

Marshal and Knight both aren't particularly good classes so combining them together doesn't help that much, there is a lot of overlap between the two (Full BAB good fort saves, etc etc)

Also remember the tier system isn't about raw power or damage or anything like that. Tier 4 is essentially defined as "Can either do one thing well but fails outside of that" or "Can do a bunch of things mediocre". Knight//Marshal has some skill synergy with marshal stuff and decent skill points per level but it's too MAD to focus on skills and it doesn't really get anything to help it contribute to a substantial degree compared to fighters or barbarians and it would be almost strictly worse than a crusader.

Also remember that something being a low tier doesn't mean it isn't fun or a good character. A marshall//knight sounds like an actually interesting character.

Ya I thought it sounded like a cool synergy, one comment though, marshal is 3/4 bab with d8 hd and good fort and will, also oddly Knight has bad fort save...

Anyways I am not sure if it would end up being very mad, your primary stats would be con and cha, because of of knight's emphasis on heavy armor dex can most likely be dumped, with good will save wis isn't much of a concern and with 4+int while you can't dump int it shouldn't be hurting too much for skill points focusing on cha based skills. All and all I am not seeing it being very MAD, probably the the worst part is the knight bonus feat selection is kind of insulting...

[Troacctid]

Individually, marshal is on the lower end of T4 and knight is mid-T5. Together, I think they'd be on the high end of T4.


Also remember the tier system isn't about raw power or damage or anything like that. Tier 4 is essentially defined as "Can either do one thing well but fails outside of that" or "Can do a bunch of things mediocre". Knight//Marshal has some skill synergy with marshal stuff and decent skill points per level but it's too MAD to focus on skills and it doesn't really get anything to help it contribute to a substantial degree compared to fighters or barbarians and it would be almost strictly worse than a crusader.
It's just a straightforward power ranking. All you need to do to be in T4 is be stronger than every T5 class, but weaker than every T3 class.

[Blackhawk748]

Solidly Teir 4, though it would probably play a more support oriented roll than the Knight typically does. Buff your buddies while making the enmy hit you in the face. So id see Con and Cha being the Primaries with Str and Wis being secondary. (if Knights challenges come from Wis, I cant recall off hand if they do).

So ya, solidly Tier 4, probably high-end Tier 4 with the right build.

[liquidformat]

knight challenge is based off of cha so wis is only useful for boosting will saves, listen, and sense motives. Over all I am liking the combo it seems fun.

[noob]

knight have a good thing: it have a fast progressing will save.

[Troacctid]

knight have a good thing: it have a fast progressing will save.
You went for the one marshals already have, rather than the full BAB or the d12 hit die?

[noob]

You went for the one marshals already have, rather than the full BAB or the d12 hit die?

wait so marshals did not have full bab?

[Telonius]

wait so marshals did not have full bab?

No, 3/4. The Wizards Archive has the class here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b). Knight is on the archive here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2).

[Bavarian itP]

I'm really astonished that people bothering to respond to this thread without knowing the fundamentals of both classes in question.

Dunning-Kruger Effect, anyone?

[Eldariel]

I'd say it actually borders a low Tier 3. Minor Marshal auras are actually really powerful; it's the rest of the chassis that bombs the class. A martial with 4+Int skills, the ability to add Charisma to any non-Cha skills and double Charisma to Charisma skills, also share these boosts to teammates, and then provide these boosts to non-skill attribute checks (which are a pain to boost otherwise), is really good at a lot of non-combat stuff. Of note is the ease of pumping UMD when you have double Charisma to it on a Cha-focused chassis (though it is of course not a class skill).

Add to this fair combat prowess (Charisma to Trip-checks, some flat to hit/damage bonuses, Charisma to flank or charge damage, Knight's defensive bulwark, etc.) makes you a pretty solid area control character with a tripping reach weapon from very early on (the tactic is at its best 1-6ish and this combo hits pretty high notes on level 3, before Crusader gets Thicket of Blades even). Marshal with full BAB and d12 HD is already a pretty solid character, but the few relevant Knight abilities complement it nicely.

[DeTess]

Yeah, Marshall//knight, sounds like a pretty decent beat-stick with workable out-of-combat utility. I don't think it's up to par with the martial initiators, but it gets pretty close. In fact, if I remember this when I next DM a 3.5 game, I might include marsahl//knight as a single class.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, Marshall//knight, sounds like a pretty decent beat-stick with workable out-of-combat utility. I don't think it's up to par with the martial initiators, but it gets pretty close. In fact, if I remember this when I next DM a 3.5 game, I might include marsahl//knight as a single class.

You can add Paladin to the mix to make it a solid Tier 3 while fitting the same mechanical space.

[Thurbane]

Tristalt Fighter/Knight/Marshal - What Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542297-3-5-Tristalt-Fighter-Knight-Marshal-What-Tier)

If you throw Fighter in there, about tier 4, by consensus...

[Troacctid]

Tristalt Fighter/Knight/Marshal - What Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542297-3-5-Tristalt-Fighter-Knight-Marshal-What-Tier)

If you throw Fighter in there, about tier 4, by consensus...
I think if you throw fighter in there too, you get to T3. At that point you should be able to hit the benchmarks set by martial adepts.

[T.G. Oskar]

Tristalt Fighter/Knight/Marshal - What Tier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?542297-3-5-Tristalt-Fighter-Knight-Marshal-What-Tier)

If you throw Fighter in there, about tier 4, by consensus...

Thanks for pointing out that thread. I knew there was a discussion related to it.

However, since I made the exercise to figure out how it works (as in, worked the class mix) and have the notes on how each part of the class works on the mix, might as well post it out here for convenience.


The marshal provides almost as many new skills to the knight as the knight already has, with a strong focus on Strength and Charisma
The marshal grants the knight a good Fortitude save, while the knight grants a good Base Attack Bonus. The knight also grants a hefty Hit Dice, which is incredibly solid. The two have good Will saves, however. The combined chassis has virtually no dead levels, aside from level 18th which grants nothing but bonuses to saving throws and BAB.
The knight and the marshal both have the same proficiencies.
Aura is the key class feature of the marshal; it makes the combo far more focused in Charisma, but this combines well with the knight’s fighting challenge class feature, which nominally relies on Charisma. To the knight, it grants two passive benefits that provide strong assistance to allies.
Fighting challenge is a pretty straightforward ability, allowing the knight to better fight a single strong enemy. The marshal adds the auras to the mix, therefore providing a variety of opportunities. Given the knight’s focus on mounted combat, the marshal||knight combo can benefit from the Over the Top minor aura, and either the Motivate Ardor or Motivate Attack major auras for increased attack, or either Motivate Care or Hardy Soldiers for increased defensive capabilities. Just at 7th level, the marshal||knight combo can easily overcome a single opponent and still provide a solid buff to his allies.
Test of mettle is an “aggro” mechanic, meant to pull strong enemies into the knight. The marshal’s auras provide the combination with added resilience, due to Motivate Care, Resilient Troops or Hardy Soldiers, combined with the minor auras Demand Fortitude, Force of Will and Watchful Eye complementing saving throw bonuses. Because these extend to all allies in range, this also means the marshal||knight combo aids its allies regarding area of effect spells.
Call to battle is no transcendental ability, but the marshal’s auras make it even easier for his allies to break free from the fear effect. Either Force of Will or Resilient Troops (or both) can grant a considerable Will save, effectively making his ally break free from any fear effect in anything but a natural 1 roll.
Daunting challenge is a relatively weak, but fluffy ability that essentially disables weaker opponents. The marshal’s abilities grant little benefit, though the increased reliance on Charisma makes it much easier to boost the saving throws.
This is a good ability in case the marshal||knight combination’s high Will saves are not enough to resist mind-affecting abilities. If timed correctly, something like Force of Will and Resilient Troops can make this save even easier to meet, therefore allowing the marshal||knight combo to break free from insidious effects like charm or dominate.
Loyal beyond death is evidently the coolest ability the knight has at its disposal. The idea is that the knight can survive fatal blows this way, by spending a relatively rare resource. The marshal provides an increased reliance on Charisma, though not by much; however, being a free action, this leaves the gestalt combination with the ability to provide the necessary benefits to survive the onslaught until the battle ends or he can be healed. However, its auras can only take it so far.
The marshal||knight gestalt makes for a fine face-type character. With 4 skill points per level and Diplomacy as a class skill, alongside Motivate Charisma, the combo should make the ultimate face. That said, the marshal could do it already; the knight doesn’t support that.
The knight has a very minor focus on mounted combat, and getting the start of this feat chain is a good example of how. The marshal||knight gestalt can use a mount to increase its movement rate, and take advantage of the Over the Top minor aura to deal greater damage with mounted charges, but this is mostly the knight providing a valuable attack option to the marshal.
Shield block is a pseudo-Dodge effect that grants better AC against a single opponent, most likely the same one taunted by fighting challenge. The marshal’s side of the mix provides little benefit, other than increased AC or DR via major auras.
Bulwark of defense is one of the two class abilities the knight has that aids with tanking, alongside vigilant defender and test of mettle. The knight would normally rely on a reach weapon and a feature like tripping; the marshal only assists by providing a minor aura that adds Charisma to Strength, therefore granting a better chance at tripping for lockdown tactics. However, the increased dependency on multiple abilities (by making Charisma more valuable) and the reduced amount of feats means the gestalt combination might find it hard to nudge this fighting style to take proper benefit.
Armor Mastery is a nice ribbon ability, meant to make the knight more mobile, though it becomes redundant when using a mount.
This is a cool and underrated ability of the marshal that allows allies to make tactical movements to move away from enemies, or closer in the case of melee attackers. However, it’s an “orphaned” ability because it doesn’t boost any of the knight’s class features at all.
Bonus feats are good, except when they’re somewhat limited. Because Mounted Combat is given for free, a knight (and therefore, the blend of both classes) can focus on the mounted combat feat chain and make a decent charger build for good damage, adding Charisma to damage rolls twice (or even thrice) via Spirited Charge (and/or a lance). The rest are meant to boost saving throws (irrelevant), skills (again, irrelevant) or make the gestalt combo harder to kill (somewhat irrelevant). so the feats are there mostly for the mounted combat feat chain and the illusion of some choice.
With Vigilant Defender, don’t use Tumble near the marshal||knight gestalt. Since the only way to escape a knight (the single class) once inside its threat range is Tumble or teleport, this makes the knight a bit more “sticky”. However, this ability is largely independent of the marshal’s abilities, other than making the gestalt combo so sticky that grant move action can be used effectively to allow squishies to move away. Other than that, it doesn’t blend well.
Shield Ally is a way to get damage redirection (i.e., control the flow of damage of the enemy), the class mix can protect nearby allies from harm, but more often than not you don’t want allies so close for comfort. The Hardy Soldiers aura helps to mitigate some of the damage, however. Improved Shield Ally is, naturally, an improvement to shield ally, but nothing that the marshal can truly support.
Impetuous Endurance is a solid ability that the marshal side of the gestalt improves greatly. With Resilient Troops and the right minor aura, a Marshal simply cannot fail a saving throw, ever. That said, the hypotetical mix has no mettle or evasion, which would make this ability utterly broken, but magic items can come to the rescue. (Tabard of the Great Crusade comes to mind).
To “compensate* for the addition of all knightly skills and class features, the gestalt combination is saddled with the knight’s code as well. This restriction doesn’t affect the gestalt combination’s auras by means of the marshal side, but it does affect fighting challenge.


In general, your hypotetical mix is essentially a marshal with better fighting skills, but too spread out to make it an efficient fighting machine. The knight provides a large amount of fighting capabilities to the marshal, who merely provides the knight with more skills and passive benefits that it can spread to everyone. The two classes can make themselves more resilient to resist the effects of tanking, or make themselves more dangerous by means of improved damage, but relies too much on the knight side of the equation to be successful.

So, if anything, it's more of a low Tier 4/high Tier 5 if anything. Low Tier 4 if you consider it as a superior face (it does one thing exceptionally well, and that is Diplomacy, in itself a pretty broken skill), but can't do the others well (it fights well, it tanks pretty decently, but it can't focus to maximize either, and the lack of a good mount means it can't be a proper Ubercharger). If you don't focus on Diplomacy, on the other hand...


I think if you throw fighter in there too, you get to T3. At that point you should be able to hit the benchmarks set by martial adepts.

Erm...nope. You're basically adding more feats to the mix. It *does* help with the feat starvation thing (by granting a ton of bonus feats), but by that point it's more of what you can do with those feats. If the Fighter, itself a Tier 5 class, doesn't get a lot with feats, the Fighter/Marshal/Knight Tristalt won't go any further either.

Now, Paladin, on the other hand...

[Heliomance]

It's just a straightforward power ranking. All you need to do to be in T4 is be stronger than every T5 class, but weaker than every T3 class.

That is very much not the case. The tier system has never been a one-dimensional power ranking - flawed as it is, give it the credit it's due. Silva is correct in their definition.

[Gnaeus]

Knight/marshal is low T4.

The problem with things like knight//fighter//marshal is that knight comes preequipped with the knights code, which sucks, especially for a Marshall who could be handing out auras that boost flanking. And once you have factored in the will save you get from marshal and the good BAB from fighter it becomes a question of whether a pile of bad feats and the crummy challenge mechanic even beats the penalty for breaking the code. It’s not a lot better than just fighter marshal. That isn’t 100% true. The knight feats do fill some decent prerequisites. It’s a solid base to a trip build. But only circumstantially better. Knight is one of the worst T5s in gestalt.

[T.G. Oskar]

Knight/marshal is low T4.

The problem with things like knight//fighter//marshal is that knight comes preequipped with the knights code, which sucks, especially for a Marshall who could be handing out auras that boost flanking. And once you have factored in the will save you get from marshal and the good BAB from fighter it becomes a question of whether a pile of bad feats and the crummy challenge mechanic even beats the penalty for breaking the code. It’s not a lot better than just fighter marshal.

Actually: isn't a specific part of the Knight's Code points out that you can give flanking to your allies, but not take advantage of the flanking yourself? It's even the first point of the code:
A knight does not gain a bonus on attack rolls while flanking. You still confer the benefit of a flanking position to your ally, but you forgo your own +2 bonus on attack rolls. You can choose to keep the +2 bonus, but doing so violates your code of honor (PHB 2, p.27, "The Knight's Code")

Pretty explicit; you can provide the flanking aura (Master of Tactics) AND a flanking position, but you can't benefit from it. This includes benefitting from Master of Tactics yourself.

That said: you still have the fundamentals for a charger build (sans the mount); Knight's Fighting Challenge + Marshal's Auras (specifically Over the Top, which boosts charging damage) stack your damage potential. It's too focused, yes, but it's a thing. I pointed out how each of the components help, but I do agree it's no bigger than T4, if only because they can't do many things well, and their main schtick isn't overwhelmingly good (i.e., they're no better buffers than the Bard, nor they can do as many things as the Bard can do outside of combat, not even with +Cha to all skills if you get all skill-related auras).

They're also...distinct to a Marshal||Fighter gestalt, if only because the Knight is pretty hard to kill (Loyal Beyond Death, Impetuous Endurance, d12 HD) and the Marshal's auras can help with that. Marshal||Knight draws more from Charisma than Marshal||Fighter, and while it's more focused, it gives more leeway on auras. I'd dare say Marshal||Knight is better than Marshal||Fighter, but by a difference so marginal, it could be considered negligible.

[noce]

I once thought about merging Knight, Marshal and Soulborn (without the code). This would be pretty much T3, I assume.

[liquidformat]

I once thought about merging Knight, Marshal and Soulborn (without the code). This would be pretty much T3, I assume.

The problem with soulborn is it is a 10 level prestige class turned into a base class. If you smash it back into a 10 level prc and give it easy prereques to hit around 4 or 5 it is actually quite nice holy warrior prc.

Anyways given the marshal/knight's cha focus adding in dreadful wrath, imperious command, and never outnumbered rounds it out pretty nicely and seems like a pretty straight forward choice to go with the abilities of the combination.

[Troacctid]

Erm...nope. You're basically adding more feats to the mix. It *does* help with the feat starvation thing (by granting a ton of bonus feats), but by that point it's more of what you can do with those feats. If the Fighter, itself a Tier 5 class, doesn't get a lot with feats, the Fighter/Marshal/Knight Tristalt won't go any further either.

Now, Paladin, on the other hand...
More feats is just what the doctor ordered for a class like knight. The tank strategy is perennially feat-starved. Bonus feats are the push you need to be able to control enemies with combat maneuvers while still presenting a credible offensive threat. Combined with the versatility of the marshal's "Cha to everything" both in and out of combat, you should be able to match a warblade or swordsage no problem—and they're benchmark melee T3s.


That is very much not the case. The tier system has never been a one-dimensional power ranking - flawed as it is, give it the credit it's due. Silva is correct in their definition.
Yes it is the case, yes it has been, and no they're not correct.

[Heliomance]

Yes it is the case, yes it has been, and no they're not correct.

From the original thread:



Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

[Troacctid]

From the original thread:
Which is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Also from the original thread:

Thus, this system is created for the following purposes:

1) To provide a ranking system so that DMs know roughly the power of the classes of the PCs in their group before applying their own changes.
I ranked them in tiers of power... regardless of the general campaign, an Archivist and a Wizard will be reasonably close to each other in power, and both will be far stronger than a Monk, for example. I do still have to make a few basic assumptions, such as that player skill and optimziation are reasonably close and that for the most part RAW is being played, but that's about it.

[Heliomance]

Which is descriptive, not prescriptive.


It very much runs counter to your assertion that "all you have to do is be more powerful than everything in T5 and less powerful than everything in T4". The edges of the tiers are reasonably well defined - there are qualititative criteria that a class needs to meet to be in a certain tier. "Power" is far too nebulous a term to form the basis of a ranking, unqualified, which is a large part of the reason that the tier system is useful in the first place.

The difference between a T1 and a T2 character is not the same as the difference between a T2 and a T3 character. It's much closer to the difference between T3 and T4 - it's about breadth of power rather than strength. Silva gave the definition of T4 more or less straight from the original thread, I don't quite understand how you can assert that they're wrong.

[AvatarVecna]

This may well end up being an unpopular opinion, but the biggest thing Marshal does for the Knight is make it actually good at tanking - yes, with a good Fortitude save, but far more importantly with its auras. Tanking is a matter of becoming a priority among enemies despite being difficult to take down, and auras are a fantastic buff that very successfully paints a giant bullseye on you not by forcing a Will save against the NPCs, but against the DM IRL. Manipulating enemy targeting can be done on either side of the screen, and Marshal is far better at manipulating how the DM picks targets than the Knight is at manipulating how NPCs pick targets. That the Marshal also makes the Knight fantastic at Diplomacy is icing on the cake, and means the Knight now has something to do out-of-combat. If you add Fighter instead of Marshal, then the good Fort is still useful, but is overshadowed by the feats Fighter contributes that allows the Knight to either support it's incredibly awful default playstyle (lance-and-shield from horseback is decent-with-glaring-flaws for offense and straight-up-awful for defensive tanking) or combos well with the Knights more generic class features to be truly dangerous and tanky (a reach monster Fighter build with Test Of Mettle, Bulwark Of Defense, and Vigilant Defender is an at-will 30-ft radius sphere of solid BFC). Adding both Marshal and Fighter onto Knight makes for an absolutely fantastic tank/BFC/party support character with some out-of-combat utility who isn't starved for feats, and is - while perhaps not nearly good enough for T3 - is certainly at the higher-end of T4.

EDIT: Or swap Fighter for CC spell-less paladin to get Cha to saves, smiting, bonus feats, and a mount that won't fall to a stiff breeze.

[T.G. Oskar]

More feats is just what the doctor ordered for a class like knight. The tank strategy is perennially feat-starved. Bonus feats are the push you need to be able to control enemies with combat maneuvers while still presenting a credible offensive threat. Combined with the versatility of the marshal's "Cha to everything" both in and out of combat, you should be able to match a warblade or swordsage no problem—and they're benchmark melee T3s.


This may well end up being an unpopular opinion, but the biggest thing Marshal does for the Knight is make it actually good at tanking - yes, with a good Fortitude save, but far more importantly with its auras. Tanking is a matter of becoming a priority among enemies despite being difficult to take down, and auras are a fantastic buff that very successfully paints a giant bullseye on you not by forcing a Will save against the NPCs, but against the DM IRL. Manipulating enemy targeting can be done on either side of the screen, and Marshal is far better at manipulating how the DM picks targets than the Knight is at manipulating how NPCs pick targets. That the Marshal also makes the Knight fantastic at Diplomacy is icing on the cake, and means the Knight now has something to do out-of-combat. If you add Fighter instead of Marshal, then the good Fort is still useful, but is overshadowed by the feats Fighter contributes that allows the Knight to either support it's incredibly awful default playstyle (lance-and-shield from horseback is decent-with-glaring-flaws for offense and straight-up-awful for defensive tanking) or combos well with the Knights more generic class features to be truly dangerous and tanky (a reach monster Fighter build with Test Of Mettle, Bulwark Of Defense, and Vigilant Defender is an at-will 30-ft radius sphere of solid BFC). Adding both Marshal and Fighter onto Knight makes for an absolutely fantastic tank/BFC/party support character with some out-of-combat utility who isn't starved for feats, and is - while perhaps not nearly good enough for T3 - is certainly at the higher-end of T4.

EDIT: Or swap Fighter for CC spell-less paladin to get Cha to saves, smiting, bonus feats, and a mount that won't fall to a stiff breeze.

Had a big post coming in, but I feel this post explains it better; and better yet, it supports both our arguments.

Part of the issue was how that "one weird trick" ended up working, and the concept of essentially manipulating the DM into attacking you because of the passive bonuses, while still being fantastic at actual tanking; without considering that psychological factor, the argument about tanking was relegated to how "sticky" (i.e., how much of a threat the character is in order to prioritize targeting) the gestalt/tristalt ended up being. Adding larger damage certainly makes the Marshal||Knight||Fighter very sticky, but the core principles and existing synergies don't take that many feats (at most, a good reach weapon and Power Attack, perhaps with some good Dex for Combat Reflexes). Anything beyond that is essentially diminished returns, since the bulk of the damage will come from PA, and the rest is how to maximize that PA boost to damage without losing too much accuracy. As you can see, it explains the core of your argument in simpler words.

That said, it ends up agreeing with me in that it's not enough for Tier 3; not even on that borderline case where the Warblade stands. That's not bad; the combination is fun to play and pretty effective, but it's just not Tier 3, not even low Tier 3. When I mentioned the Paladin instead (and not the spell-less version), it's because the Paladin's tools add just as much, if not more, to your overall stickiness as a tank, while giving you an even bigger toolbox than the Fighter's feats would. Without going into specific feat choices, or ACFs, or even specific racial choices, the Paladin offers a boatload of synergies that support both sides of the gestalt, while giving a broader toolbox to play with. In that regard, using Paladin for the hypothetical tristalt ends up being a stronger argument than using Fighter.

In short: more feats don't really push up that tristalt to Tier 3. It needs more tools to play with, and combat feats can only take you so far. Granted, though - some of those tools are Martial Study and Martial Stance, and the right choices can lead you pretty far.

(So, in other words, AvatarVecna; I doubt it's an unpopular opinion. At least, not in my regard).

[Cosi]

It probably makes Knight better. It's still crap though.

It doesn't really fix the fundamental problems with Marshal, which are principally that Marshal levels are kind of pointless. Motivate Move Action blows, your Major Aura bonus grows too slowly, you learn Minor Auras too slowly ("CHA to everything" is a massive overstatement, you barely get CHA to a majority of things by teen levels), and your Minor Aura bonus has nothing to do with your Marshal level. You get like 50% of the benefit of Marshal from the first level, and like 90% from taking Leadership and getting lots of 1st level Marshals as followers.

[liquidformat]

It sounds like simply opening up the knight's bonus feats including level 2 when he otherwise would get mounted combat to any bonus fighter feat does almost as much as tristalt with fighter...

[zfs]

Agree with the consensus of middle to low Tier 4, though it's very flavorful and would be fun to play.

Now, add on Paladin, and I think you have a strong Tier 3. Find a way to pick up Mettle and Evasion through WBL and suddenly you pretty much are eventually guaranteed to save against anything level appropriate, since you'll be getting 2xCha bonus to saves and eventually you'll stop auto-failing on 1's.

[noob]

I think a Knight//Druid would be tier 1 and that a Knight//Incarnate would probably be tier 3.

[AvatarVecna]

I think a Knight//Druid would be tier 1 and that a Knight//Incarnate would probably be tier 3.

I agree. I think a Knight//Wizard would also be T1.

[Troacctid]

It very much runs counter to your assertion that "all you have to do is be more powerful than everything in T5 and less powerful than everything in T4". The edges of the tiers are reasonably well defined - there are qualititative criteria that a class needs to meet to be in a certain tier. "Power" is far too nebulous a term to form the basis of a ranking, unqualified, which is a large part of the reason that the tier system is useful in the first place.

The difference between a T1 and a T2 character is not the same as the difference between a T2 and a T3 character. It's much closer to the difference between T3 and T4 - it's about breadth of power rather than strength. Silva gave the definition of T4 more or less straight from the original thread, I don't quite understand how you can assert that they're wrong.
It's not a definition, it's a description. Tiers are a ranking of the classes by power and versatility. Patterns emerged from there. But the tier system is ultimately a power ranking. I'm not pulling this from my mule, JaronK said as much in the original thread too.

[Godskook]

Marshal is a competent skill-monkey, that could easily keep pace with a Factotum, Rogue or Bard in overall ability to solve skill-based encounters, especially charisma-based ones. What Marshal suffers from is an inability to be useful in combat outside some mediocre buffs that get outclassed quickly by a Bard.

Knight, otoh, excells at combat like most tier 4s/5s. Useful, but monotone.

A combination of these traits produce a quintessentially high-tier-4 class, cause really, this ends up being far closer to a better Barbarian(in a slightly different archetype) than it does to being a worse Warblade.

[Seerow]

Marshal is a competent skill-monkey, that could easily keep pace with a Factotum, Rogue or Bard in overall ability to solve skill-based encounters, especially charisma-based ones. What Marshal suffers from is an inability to be useful in combat outside some mediocre buffs that get outclassed quickly by a Bard.

2 fewer skill points per level and no incentive to pump int, especially for a class intended to be on the front lines, and thus will be very MAD makes this super questionable. Marshall is not a skill monkey, it's just not totally useless at skills, and can augment allies skills (a far more valuable out of combat ability)

[Cosi]

Marshal is not really a skillmonkey. They lack Trapfinding, and their skill list, while better than most martial classes, doesn't have a lot of core skill monkey-ing skills. And while the aura bonus is nice, past low levels having more trained skills is nicer. With double-CHA to social skills, the Marshal is decent for specifically social stuff, but for general use you really want a Rogue.

[Troacctid]

You don't need trapfinding to be a skillmonkey.

[Cosi]

Trapfinding is foundational to the role of skillmonkey.

[Thurbane]

You don't need trapfinding to be a skillmonkey.

That really depends on which particular definition of skillmonkey is being referenced.

[Cosi]

Even if we grant that not having the core competency of skill monkies doesn't disqualify the Marshal from being a skill monkey, there's still the issue that their skill list is fairly shallow. It's basically the Fighter skill list, plus social skills, and Spot/Listen. Having the social skills is an advantage, but you would really rather have stealth or UMD than Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Gather Information. The Marshal (or, really, a one-level Marshal dip because extra Marshal levels suck a lot) is a very good choice for a social butterfly, but that's a much narrower niche than "skill monkey".

[daremetoidareyo]

Even if we grant that not having the core competency of skill monkies doesn't disqualify the Marshal from being a skill monkey, there's still the issue that their skill list is fairly shallow. It's basically the Fighter skill list, plus social skills, and Spot/Listen. Having the social skills is an advantage, but you would really rather have stealth or UMD than Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Gather Information. The Marshal (or, really, a one-level Marshal dip because extra Marshal levels suck a lot) is a very good choice for a social butterfly, but that's a much narrower niche than "skill monkey".

Everything you said is true.

I thought i would chime up and say that marshal is awesome bluffplomancer for diplosploitative antics. Nearly unrivalled.

Throw a little changeling rogue substitution level on there and maybe some naberius.

Now yer cookin with fire.

[Hunterx]

Knight/Marshal gestalt to level 5 than Hexblade 3/marshal 8. Then Kensai.3, knight 8.
This gives you Knight 8/ marshal 8 Hexblade 3 Kensai 3. Because gestahlting is different this is allowed as far as I know and would give you Charisma to your save 2x vs spells and spell like abilities. Now the fun part feats,
You need combat expertise and weapon focus to get into Kensai.
Take steady concentration
And steadfast determination
You know use your con for wis saves and can not fail on a 1
You use concentration for reflex saves and with all that you add you cha modifier to it.

Pick up a ring of evasion twilight Mithras full plate and go to town.

[Cosi]

I thought i would chime up and say that marshal is awesome bluffplomancer for diplosploitative antics. Nearly unrivalled.

Throw a little changeling rogue substitution level on there and maybe some naberius.

Absolutely. The Marshal is a very good choice for a Diplomancer (although just one Marshal level as, again, I cannot overemphasize how bad the returns to additional Marshal levels are compared to doing anything else with your time). But so is Warlock, and no one thinks that's a skill monkey.

[Hunterx]

Absolutely. The Marshal is a very good choice for a Diplomancer (although just one Marshal level as, again, I cannot overemphasize how bad the returns to additional Marshal levels are compared to doing anything else with your time). But so is Warlock, and no one thinks that's a skill monkey.

Warlock can be a skill monkey. It gets +6 to spacific skills that is like gaining 6 levels in that skill simply by casting an incantation. Marshal is the same way, only the aura has to stay up and active were the warlock is locked in for 24 hours.

All seeing eye so:+6 to spot and search
Baleful influence +6 to Bluff intimidate diplomacy
Draconic knowledge: +6 to knowledge and spell craft

That is a pretty solid line up right there.

Now if you cross class the 2 you have even a bettering return and races can make it even scarier .

So yes skill monkey marshal warlock your damn right. By the way you do not need tap finding to be a skill monkey.

Plus the marshal also gets knowledge skills as in anyone they want to take.

[Cosi]

The Warlock gets 2 skill points per level and has no reason to invest in INT. Even assuming you take all three of those invocations (which is all your Least invocations), you're looking at a smaller overall skill bonus than the Wizard before 6th level or so (too lazy to do precise math). You get UMD, which is a plus, but no Diplomacy or Trapfinding (which again, yes that is an essential part of being a skill monkey). And, again, you have a pretty shallow skill list. Skill monkey doesn't just mean "gets big bonuses to a couple of skills". You need to have a reasonable breadth of skills, Trapfinding to leverage your skill bonuses to interact with the single most central example of using of skills in adventuring, both UMD and Diplomacy as class skills, and more than 6 skill points per level, or at least a significant chunk of that. The Warlock has ... UMD.

[Troacctid]

The Warlock gets 2 skill points per level and has no reason to invest in INT. Even assuming you take all three of those invocations (which is all your Least invocations), you're looking at a smaller overall skill bonus than the Wizard before 6th level or so (too lazy to do precise math). You get UMD, which is a plus, but no Diplomacy or Trapfinding (which again, yes that is an essential part of being a skill monkey). And, again, you have a pretty shallow skill list. Skill monkey doesn't just mean "gets big bonuses to a couple of skills". You need to have a reasonable breadth of skills, Trapfinding to leverage your skill bonuses to interact with the single most central example of using of skills in adventuring, both UMD and Diplomacy as class skills, and more than 6 skill points per level, or at least a significant chunk of that. The Warlock has ... UMD.
Int is an important skill for warlocks, as it determines skill points. If trapfinding is an integral part of being a skillmonkey, warlocks can detect magic at will, allowing them to easily detect and locate magic traps, and they can dispel magic at will, allowing them to easily disarm them.

[Heliomance]

Marshal can be worth a three level dip IMO. It can be worth going for both Motivate Charisma and Motivate Dexterity

[Hunterx]

Marshal can be worth a three level dip IMO. It can be worth going for both Motivate Charisma and Motivate Dexterity

Marshal truly is better than most people have ever given it, an extra move action is nothing to sneeze at and I agree the major aura comes on line way to late to be fantastic that pluse the feat knoladge devotion can grant you a +10 to damage which for just saying a few words and making a skill check is not all that bad.

Plus if you add in dragon blood creature with Draconic aura and double auras, you can get up to 4 auras at once. Two minor and two major.

Now if you get fancy and you want even more you can go paladin of freedom get the aura of freedom granting a +4 to saves and than just for fun take the Prc class dragon hunter and get aura of courage as well giving them another +4 vs fear effects

Than dragon lord to improve your dragon auras by X and some magic items for the icing and you have a very potent support char. That just has to stand there and speak. A few words no concentration needed no continuous speaking needed .

[T.G. Oskar]

Marshal truly is better than most people have ever given it, an extra move action is nothing to sneeze at and I agree the major aura comes on line way to late to be fantastic that pluse the feat knoladge devotion can grant you a +10 to damage which for just saying a few words and making a skill check is not all that bad.

Plus if you add in dragon blood creature with Draconic aura and double auras, you can get up to 4 auras at once. Two minor and two major.

Now if you get fancy and you want even more you can go paladin of freedom get the aura of freedom granting a +4 to saves and than just for fun take the Prc class dragon hunter and get aura of courage as well giving them another +4 vs fear effects

Than dragon lord to improve your dragon auras by X and some magic items for the icing and you have a very potent support char. That just has to stand there and speak. A few words no concentration needed no continuous speaking needed .

The thing is, Marshal has some pretty nice stuff (even its ACF, which replaces a move action for temp. HP, is quite good), but it's too passive to be played as a character. It, like the Healer, is formidable as a cohort.

Allow me to explain. The Marshal doesn't have a huge BAB, so its fighting capabilities are somewhat on the down-low. It lacks bonus feats, so it has to depend on fighting styles that are effective from the get-go (THF being the most common), and once you do so, you're pretty much locked into that single trick until the time comes to switch auras or fire GMA. Outside of combat, it has some utility as a superb face (Diplomacy is heavily supported, but you can also do Bluff and Intimidate pretty well). That's what you get from the class itself; that's mostly the reason why people say Marshal is great for a 3-level dip, because that's where you get major auras. Note that you immediately switch to Paladin of Freedom and Dragon Lord to get even more auras, and most importantly, other class features. Have you noticed that the Marshal gains essentially nothing at 13th level? It's probably one of the few classes that has this distinction, because it gains pretty much only a HD and skill points: no BAB, no saves (you got those boosts at 12th level), no new minor auras, no new major auras, and no new class features since 13th level is in-between an additional use of GMA and a boost to Major Aura bonus. That gets repeated at 17th level, so that's two absolutely dead levels. As a player, having two absolutely dead levels, where you don't even get feats to compensate, just doesn't cut it.

As a cohort, though? Well, the cohort doesn't have to get into battle, but could contribute (give it a bow and archery feats), can cover for a face in the group, and is sufficiently low-powered so as to not overshadow your group.

The idea behind the Gestalt is to see how the Marshal, a class best known for giving strong passive bonuses, could be stacked on another class that's not very popular (Knight) and improve it. As posted before, it's...not very awe-inspiring, but it ends up with a pretty fun character nonetheless, as the Knight gives it a focus and, most importantly, proper fighting power. It's not Tier 3 by any means, but it's a pretty fun Tier 4, and T4s aren't boring or unable to contribute to a party where most are T3. Saying "Marshals are better than they're thought for", and then essentially dropping them after getting their first GMA, gives mixed thoughts. Saying "Marshals are not bad beyond a 3-level dip" is a fairer proposal, and it'd still get debated. Mostly, because GMA is an ambitious class feature; it's one of the few ways a martial character can provide action economy, but it's limited to movement. If it had granted actions, on the other hand...it'd be fairer to PCs, but it'd end up still being better cohort material.

[Hunterx]

The thing is, Marshal has some pretty nice stuff (even its ACF, which replaces a move action for temp. HP, is quite good), but it's too passive to be played as a character. It, like the Healer, is formidable as a cohort.

Allow me to explain. The Marshal doesn't have a huge BAB, so its fighting capabilities are somewhat on the down-low. It lacks bonus feats, so it has to depend on fighting styles that are effective from the get-go (THF being the most common), and once you do so, you're pretty much locked into that single trick until the time comes to switch auras or fire GMA. Outside of combat, it has some utility as a superb face (Diplomacy is heavily supported, but you can also do Bluff and Intimidate pretty well). That's what you get from the class itself; that's mostly the reason why people say Marshal is great for a 3-level dip, because that's where you get major auras. Note that you immediately switch to Paladin of Freedom and Dragon Lord to get even more auras, and most importantly, other class features. Have you noticed that the Marshal gains essentially nothing at 13th level? It's probably one of the few classes that has this distinction, because it gains pretty much only a HD and skill points: no BAB, no saves (you got those boosts at 12th level), no new minor auras, no new major auras, and no new class features since 13th level is in-between an additional use of GMA and a boost to Major Aura bonus. That gets repeated at 17th level, so that's two absolutely dead levels. As a player, having two absolutely dead levels, where you don't even get feats to compensate, just doesn't cut it.

As a cohort, though? Well, the cohort doesn't have to get into battle, but could contribute (give it a bow and archery feats), can cover for a face in the group, and is sufficiently low-powered so as to not overshadow your group.

The idea behind the Gestalt is to see how the Marshal, a class best known for giving strong passive bonuses, could be stacked on another class that's not very popular (Knight) and improve it. As posted before, it's...not very awe-inspiring, but it ends up with a pretty fun character nonetheless, as the Knight gives it a focus and, most importantly, proper fighting power. It's not Tier 3 by any means, but it's a pretty fun Tier 4, and T4s aren't boring or unable to contribute to a party where most are T3. Saying "Marshals are better than they're thought for", and then essentially dropping them after getting their first GMA, gives mixed thoughts. Saying "Marshals are not bad beyond a 3-level dip" is a fairer proposal, and it'd still get debated. Mostly, because GMA is an ambitious class feature; it's one of the few ways a martial character can provide action economy, but it's limited to movement. If it had granted actions, on the other hand...it'd be fairer to PCs, but it'd end up still being better cohort material.

Paladin not very popular, Hexblade really not popular. Marshal not popular.

Paladin/Hexblade: we have all seen this combo P3/HB3 double Cha to saves some minor magic +6 BAB good saves Curse. DC junk.

Ou add the marshal into this build and just like the knight you are better period. Anything that rely son a single stat and Cha as point of interest gets double strong with 1 Lv of marshal.

Everyone look so to the damage the hp the X look at the style of play that you can do with the marshal. Spell casters and marshal o boy, bard good god, or how about a 5 Lv Prc that will turn you into a worshiper of the god they worship. Making Paladins clerics and other divine caster lose their spells.

The marshal is much better than ppl give it credit, giving it gestalt is down right scary in the right build.

[Cosi]

The Marshal needs a pretty substantial overhaul. Even as a cohort, it's still a pretty lame use of resources, because almost all the stuff you get after the 1st level of Marshal is either very marginal (Major Auras, Grant Move Action), or would be better provided by additional 1st level Marshals (Minor Auras). Possible ideas include access to White Raven maneuvers, some equal-level Warriors as goons, Leadership as a bonus feat, adding your Marshal level to your Leadership score, and changing Minor Auras to scale with level.


Marshal can be worth a three level dip IMO. It can be worth going for both Motivate Charisma and Motivate Dexterity

But it's way better to have two people take 1-level dips. Then you get both auras active at once. Or just get a 1st level Marshal to follow you around, because Minor auras aren't capped by level, and hiring some chump is way the hell cheaper than spending your hard earned XP on levels as empty as Marshal levels.


Marshal truly is better than most people have ever given it, an extra move action is nothing to sneeze at and I agree the major aura comes on line way to late to be fantastic that pluse the feat knoladge devotion can grant you a +10 to damage which for just saying a few words and making a skill check is not all that bad.

You'll note that Knowledge Devotion is not a Marshal class feature, and INT is a pretty damn low priority for a melee class that wants maxed CHA. You could work around that with Motivate Intelligence, but then you're pushing back Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Charisma even further. Knowledge Devotion is also pretty anti-synergistic with the skill monkey plan as it demands you poor a bunch of your skill points into Knowledges. And, no, Grant Move Action is not very good. Especially because it costs your standard action, and can't be used as a reaction.

[Hunterx]

The Marshal needs a pretty substantial overhaul. Even as a cohort, it's still a pretty lame use of resources, because almost all the stuff you get after the 1st level of Marshal is either very marginal (Major Auras, Grant Move Action), or would be better provided by additional 1st level Marshals (Minor Auras). Possible ideas include access to White Raven maneuvers, some equal-level Warriors as goons, Leadership as a bonus feat, adding your Marshal level to your Leadership score, and changing Minor Auras to scale with level.



But it's way better to have two people take 1-level dips. Then you get both auras active at once. Or just get a 1st level Marshal to follow you around, because Minor auras aren't capped by level, and hiring some chump is way the hell cheaper than spending your hard earned XP on levels as empty as Marshal levels.



You'll note that Knowledge Devotion is not a Marshal class feature, and INT is a pretty damn low priority for a melee class that wants maxed CHA. You could work around that with Motivate Intelligence, but then you're pushing back Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Charisma even further. Knowledge Devotion is also pretty anti-synergistic with the skill monkey plan as it demands you poor a bunch of your skill points into Knowledges. And, no, Grant Move Action is not very good. Especially because it costs your standard action, and can't be used as a reaction.

The move action you grant as a standard action your right that is bad, I remember some where, were you can use standard actions as immediate actions now where was that o yeah the players handbooks, if you prepare an action to take affect on a spacific thing than the action is used as an immediate a action, so you pre arrange that that action will take effect the moment initiative has been resolved, for fit you place in initiative and go last and poof.

[Cosi]

A readied action is nothing like an immediate action. You have to declare the trigger in advance, and if the trigger doesn't happen, you lose your action. And, unlike an immediate action, it stops you from using your standard action. Which means that any round where you use Grant Move Action that is all you get to do that round. It's kind of bizarre that for a class that is supposed to represent tacticians, their one active ability offers almost no ability to react dynamically to an evolving tactical situation. You would think of all the martial classes in the game, the Marshal would be the one with a mandate to have a wide suite of abilities that have complex effects that are dependent on tactical circumstances, but you would be wrong.

[Hunterx]

A readied action is nothing like an immediate action. You have to declare the trigger in advance, and if the trigger doesn't happen, you lose your action. And, unlike an immediate action, it stops you from using your standard action. Which means that any round where you use Grant Move Action that is all you get to do that round. It's kind of bizarre that for a class that is supposed to represent tacticians, their one active ability offers almost no ability to react dynamically to an evolving tactical situation. You would think of all the martial classes in the game, the Marshal would be the one with a mandate to have a wide suite of abilities that have complex effects that are dependent on tactical circumstances, but you would be wrong.

Well since initiative is bound to happen you can declare that after initiative happens this happens. That is your declare and poof the extra move action takes place.

You sir are nothing more than the old fashion power gamer looking to do the most damage right out the gate and be the best, so it is pointless to talk to you until you start looking at other things.

[Cosi]

Well since initiative is bound to happen you can declare that after initiative happens this happens. That is your declare and poof the extra move action takes place.

You can't ready outside combat. Even if you could, having the extra moves fire at the beginning of combat isn't especially useful.


You sir are nothing more than the old fashion power gamer looking to do the most damage right out the gate and be the best, so it is pointless to talk to you until you start looking at other things.

First: Stormwind Fallacy.

Second: This is a non sequitur. You've also been arguing in mechanical terms. You haven't be trying to make the case that the Marshal is interesting even if it's weak, so even if the argument you're making here was valid, it contradicts the rest of your points.

Third: You'll note that in my previous post, I complained that the Marshal is conceptually unsatisfying, in addition to being mechanically weak.

In Summary: Your argument is fallacious, and more accurately applies to your points than my own.

[Hunterx]

You can't ready outside combat. Even if you could, having the extra moves fire at the beginning of combat isn't especially useful.



First: Stormwind Fallacy.

Second: This is a non sequitur. You've also been arguing in mechanical terms. You haven't be trying to make the case that the Marshal is interesting even if it's weak, so even if the argument you're making here was valid, it contradicts the rest of your points.

Third: You'll note that in my previous post, I complained that the Marshal is conceptually unsatisfying, in addition to being mechanically weak.

In Summary: Your argument is fallacious, and more accurately applies to your points than my own.

Remember this is gestalt character for marshal so lets have a look at this again and we will throw in stuff to make marshal better as you like to say so here you go.

Marshal 10 Hexblade 10
Lets see what this gives us shall we:
Marshal: 5 minor/3 major auras
Grant move action 2/day
7 3 7 on saves
+7/+2 BAB

Hexblade
Arcane Attunement
Hexblade curse 3/day
Arcane Resistance
Mettle
Summon Familier
Bonus feats 2
Force of Omen
Swift spell 2 day
Greater Curse
7 3 7 saves
+10/+5 BAB

Now Minor Auras
Motivate Char: This increases your DC on your Curse making it harder to resist.
Motive Dex: Increase initiative
Master of Opportunity: dodge bonus against AOO
Master of Tactics bonus to flanking
Watchful eye bonus to reflex saves

Major
Motivate Care Bonus +2 to AC
Hardy Soldier : Damage reduction 2/-
Motivate Arbor: +2 on damage attacks

Now your not quite there but you can start to build it and you are going to take the hexblade ACF dark companion, and start to build toward Karmic strike and Robehts Gambit.

With all the bonuses to AC and dodge you are not going to get hit much and if you do the lower damage reduction yeah only a 2 but the curse helps with that to. This allows for a really good AOO build and without the marshal does not work as well is not as strong and is not as effective, plus you can give your cleric a move action to get to heal you if needed or the rogue to flanking

So yes the marshal is very good and in a gesthlt is better than you think.

[T.G. Oskar]

Paladin not very popular, Hexblade really not popular. Marshal not popular.

Paladin/Hexblade: we have all seen this combo P3/HB3 double Cha to saves some minor magic +6 BAB good saves Curse. DC junk.

Ou add the marshal into this build and just like the knight you are better period. Anything that rely son a single stat and Cha as point of interest gets double strong with 1 Lv of marshal.

Everyone look so to the damage the hp the X look at the style of play that you can do with the marshal. Spell casters and marshal o boy, bard good god, or how about a 5 Lv Prc that will turn you into a worshiper of the god they worship. Making Paladins clerics and other divine caster lose their spells.

The marshal is much better than ppl give it credit, giving it gestalt is down right scary in the right build.

Umm...it's a bit hard to understand your train of thought here. And just so you know, English isn't my primary language.

Popularity doesn't necessarily has to do anything with perception of utility. The Paladin is extremely popular, but it's not considered a good class (a shame, because Paladin is my favorite class). Its popularity is...negative, sadly, mostly because of the Code. If you mean that it's not a popular class to use (which is what I feel might be what you meant), then...well, that's relative, but true. That would be the same for the Hexblade and for the Marshal.

As for the Paladin||Hexblade combo...it's illegal, you know. For Gestalt, you can't have alignment conflicts; Hexblade is "any nongood", while Paladin is exclusively "Lawful Good". So, on that regard, you can't have it. But...say you ignore that, right? What you get is...a bit of a mess. I mean...sure, you get 2xCha to your saves against spells, and you get Mettle, and you get a mount AND a familiar, and two sets of spells, but Paladins and Hexblades play VERY differently. A Paladin has many buffs, a Hexblade has a lot of debuffs; the Paladin prefers heavy armor, the Hexblade prefers light to keep the ability to cast its spells. Their signature abilities are also very different; one is a stat debuff, the other is a melee attack. It's hard to see synergies, other than "both rely on Charisma" and Divine Grace + Mettle. Adding Marshal to the mix only helps so far.

One way to see this is: how does Marshal help Paladin and Hexblade? The answer: it synergizes well with the Paladin, but not necessarily with the Hexblade. I'll explain: the Paladin||Marshal combo makes the Paladin a very nice buffer, which is great because Paladins lend themselves to be good buffers. Get Battle Blessing, and you can fire off Prayer spells while having your Auras online, then start using other spells to complement while you still are capable of fighting. Their amount of skill points increases and you get a few more skills to put points upon, so you can do a very nasty Diplomancer while still relying on stuff like Intimidate. It's not bad...but it still suffers. See: the skill list doesn't improve a lot, and you still get dead levels (13th and 17th), where you pretty much get nothing new...well, aside from a few spell slots, which you might consider an improvement. This isn't merely numbers, though; these are options. The Paladin is feat-starved, and the Marshal doesn't help with that. With the Hexblade, you're adding buffs to a class that's meant to thrive on debuffs, and while both rely on Charisma, they couldn't be any more different.

You see, your argument that "Marshal is much better than people give it credit for" isn't sustained that well. There's merits for dipping into Marshal, but not merits enough that really rescue it beyond a dive. Even with classes that could seem to provide a benefit (Knight, Paladin), it's not really improving them much beyond the given dive. You specifically claim to look at the Marshal's style of play: as it stands, the Marshal is meant to be a front-line leader, and it doesn't do that job right. It has to be supported by classes that are good at the frontlines (which is why people suggested the Fighter works well), and that has an inherent synergy with it (why I suggest the Paladin), and even then, it doesn't really add much to it.

That the Marshal can be pretty scary with the right combination? Sure, but that is the nature of Gestalt; you find the right combos, you hit the jackpot. IMO, the Paladin gets a LOT from the Knight, such as good tanking enablers, the feats needed to subsidize Mounted Combat as a fighting style, a ton of stuff that makes them pretty much unkillable, and even the Knight's Challenges give them some major support (Fighting Challenge alone works as a boost to attack and damage rolls that you can use when you don't want to drop your Smite, and has a much wider range of utility than the latter). It's easy to see a ton of synergy between both classes. It's a bit harder to see synergy within the Marshal and the Knight, but it's there; the Knight and the Marshal both gain a good amount of stuff, but they're not as cohesive and synergy-filled as with the Paladin||Knight. Now, Paladin||Marshal||Knight tristalt? That's downright scary, as it tacks on passive buffs and more skill points to an already nice combination. I can't claim it's Tier 3, but it's a good case for borderline, particularly if you consider how ACFs and racial substitution levels and exclusive feats work. However, at the end, it doesn't prove anything about the Marshal being any better. All it proves is that the right combination makes for a solid build.

Which leads to further answers down the line, and how they've become...defensive, to say the least. For one, this forum tends to be a bit heavy on the optimization line; that said, it's much tamer than, say, The Gaming Den, or Minmax Forums. For the other, there's a difference between "optimization" and "powergaming"; there's an overlap, yes, but the concept is different.
Optimizing involves improving one or more aspects of a build. Optimization includes thought exercises that don't make for builds that would be considered powerful, but are nonetheless optimized. Jack B Quick, for example, is meant to optimize movement speed. That the build isn't meant for play and has some issues? Maybe, but it fulflls the goal of optimizing movement speed above anything else.
Powergaming, on the other hand, focuses on making builds that are effective in gaming, in a variety of circumstances. They can be optimized, or they can be diverse; you don't necessarily have to optimize to be a powergamer, but if you do, the build will often always be better.

Taking that and turning it into a sort of insult isn't productive to discussion. There's a lot of fun ideas coming through here: I, for one, would love to play a Paladin||Marshal||Knight tristalt on my own, but people have moved to 5e, and I'm a bit allergic to online tabletop play. Seeking how to best use the Marshal on a gestalt is a fun exercise. It's not like we're trying to undermine your idea, but as it stands, it's a bold statement that, at least to me, hasn't been well supported.

(I mean, take the CW Samurai for one. It's a glorified build made into a class. It sucks even as a cohort class, and it doesn't bring anything to Gestalt. But, there's the "Takahashi no Oniisan" build, which optimizes the heck of one aspect of it. That's the kind of argument that might make me change my mind - emphasis on "might", because I still consider the CW Samurai pretty trashy.)

[Hunterx]

Umm...it's a bit hard to understand your train of thought here. And just so you know, English isn't my primary language.

Popularity doesn't necessarily has to do anything with perception of utility. The Paladin is extremely popular, but it's not considered a good class (a shame, because Paladin is my favorite class). Its popularity is...negative, sadly, mostly because of the Code. If you mean that it's not a popular class to use (which is what I feel might be what you meant), then...well, that's relative, but true. That would be the same for the Hexblade and for the Marshal.

As for the Paladin||Hexblade combo...it's illegal, you know. For Gestalt, you can't have alignment conflicts; Hexblade is "any nongood", while Paladin is exclusively "Lawful Good". So, on that regard, you can't have it. But...say you ignore that, right? What you get is...a bit of a mess. I mean...sure, you get 2xCha to your saves against spells, and you get Mettle, and you get a mount AND a familiar, and two sets of spells, but Paladins and Hexblades play VERY differently. A Paladin has many buffs, a Hexblade has a lot of debuffs; the Paladin prefers heavy armor, the Hexblade prefers light to keep the ability to cast its spells. Their signature abilities are also very different; one is a stat debuff, the other is a melee attack. It's hard to see synergies, other than "both rely on Charisma" and Divine Grace + Mettle. Adding Marshal to the mix only helps so far.

One way to see this is: how does Marshal help Paladin and Hexblade? The answer: it synergizes well with the Paladin, but not necessarily with the Hexblade. I'll explain: the Paladin||Marshal combo makes the Paladin a very nice buffer, which is great because Paladins lend themselves to be good buffers. Get Battle Blessing, and you can fire off Prayer spells while having your Auras online, then start using other spells to complement while you still are capable of fighting. Their amount of skill points increases and you get a few more skills to put points upon, so you can do a very nasty Diplomancer while still relying on stuff like Intimidate. It's not bad...but it still suffers. See: the skill list doesn't improve a lot, and you still get dead levels (13th and 17th), where you pretty much get nothing new...well, aside from a few spell slots, which you might consider an improvement. This isn't merely numbers, though; these are options. The Paladin is feat-starved, and the Marshal doesn't help with that. With the Hexblade, you're adding buffs to a class that's meant to thrive on debuffs, and while both rely on Charisma, they couldn't be any more different.

You see, your argument that "Marshal is much better than people give it credit for" isn't sustained that well. There's merits for dipping into Marshal, but not merits enough that really rescue it beyond a dive. Even with classes that could seem to provide a benefit (Knight, Paladin), it's not really improving them much beyond the given dive. You specifically claim to look at the Marshal's style of play: as it stands, the Marshal is meant to be a front-line leader, and it doesn't do that job right. It has to be supported by classes that are good at the frontlines (which is why people suggested the Fighter works well), and that has an inherent synergy with it (why I suggest the Paladin), and even then, it doesn't really add much to it.

That the Marshal can be pretty scary with the right combination? Sure, but that is the nature of Gestalt; you find the right combos, you hit the jackpot. IMO, the Paladin gets a LOT from the Knight, such as good tanking enablers, the feats needed to subsidize Mounted Combat as a fighting style, a ton of stuff that makes them pretty much unkillable, and even the Knight's Challenges give them some major support (Fighting Challenge alone works as a boost to attack and damage rolls that you can use when you don't want to drop your Smite, and has a much wider range of utility than the latter). It's easy to see a ton of synergy between both classes. It's a bit harder to see synergy within the Marshal and the Knight, but it's there; the Knight and the Marshal both gain a good amount of stuff, but they're not as cohesive and synergy-filled as with the Paladin||Knight. Now, Paladin||Marshal||Knight tristalt? That's downright scary, as it tacks on passive buffs and more skill points to an already nice combination. I can't claim it's Tier 3, but it's a good case for borderline, particularly if you consider how ACFs and racial substitution levels and exclusive feats work. However, at the end, it doesn't prove anything about the Marshal being any better. All it proves is that the right combination makes for a solid build.

Which leads to further answers down the line, and how they've become...defensive, to say the least. For one, this forum tends to be a bit heavy on the optimization line; that said, it's much tamer than, say, The Gaming Den, or Minmax Forums. For the other, there's a difference between "optimization" and "powergaming"; there's an overlap, yes, but the concept is different.
Optimizing involves improving one or more aspects of a build. Optimization includes thought exercises that don't make for builds that would be considered powerful, but are nonetheless optimized. Jack B Quick, for example, is meant to optimize movement speed. That the build isn't meant for play and has some issues? Maybe, but it fulflls the goal of optimizing movement speed above anything else.
Powergaming, on the other hand, focuses on making builds that are effective in gaming, in a variety of circumstances. They can be optimized, or they can be diverse; you don't necessarily have to optimize to be a powergamer, but if you do, the build will often always be better.

Taking that and turning it into a sort of insult isn't productive to discussion. There's a lot of fun ideas coming through here: I, for one, would love to play a Paladin||Marshal||Knight tristalt on my own, but people have moved to 5e, and I'm a bit allergic to online tabletop play. Seeking how to best use the Marshal on a gestalt is a fun exercise. It's not like we're trying to undermine your idea, but as it stands, it's a bold statement that, at least to me, hasn't been well supported.

(I mean, take the CW Samurai for one. It's a glorified build made into a class. It sucks even as a cohort class, and it doesn't bring anything to Gestalt. But, there's the "Takahashi no Oniisan" build, which optimizes the heck of one aspect of it. That's the kind of argument that might make me change my mind - emphasis on "might", because I still consider the CW Samurai pretty trashy.)

Paladin Hexblade is legal as there are more than just good paladins, plus when you add in the blackguard to this mix than you have Cha to saves x3 a familier or dark companion a special mount and whatever the blackguard gives. You have full BAB and a ton of saves. Getting even nasterier throw in 5 levels of Kensai and a ring of evasion and you will be taking 0 damage from spells almost surely.

So Gestalt paladin 5/hexblade5 Blackguard 5/Kensai 5 is a level 10 char throw in now marshal 5/X than whatever you want for your last 5 levels and this character is going to reck your life make anyone look like a fool in diplomacy intimidate and bluffing save agains everything can wear Mithral full plate twilight armour cast divine and arcane spells debuff buff and pretty much anything else. Sure spell damage is low but who cares when you can be using a spiked chain and an AOO build to keep others on the ground.

Marshal enhances very well but by itself it is a fantastic class was well but it a better enhancer which is its specialty like a wizard casting spell the marshal enhances better that any class out there and it need not be a dipp class.

[Eldariel]

Optimizing involves improving one or more aspects of a build. Optimization includes thought exercises that don't make for builds that would be considered powerful, but are nonetheless optimized. Jack B Quick, for example, is meant to optimize movement speed. That the build isn't meant for play and has some issues? Maybe, but it fulflls the goal of optimizing movement speed above anything else.

Just a nitpick, Jack B Quick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17031211&postcount=30) is the counterattack build without any meaningful movement speed synergies (an attempt to make something out of Fighter 20), while Chuck E. Cheese (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2548.0) is the (single build ever WotC nerfed) max speed Tornado Throw build.

[Gnaeus]

Paladin Hexblade is legal as there are more than just good paladins, plus when you add in the blackguard to this ...Marshal enhances very well but by itself it is a fantastic class was well but it a better enhancer which is its specialty like a wizard casting spell the marshal enhances better that any class out there and it need not be a dipp class.

Most of the games worst classes do fine-very well in gestalt. Monk is solid in gestalt. Soulknife. Hexblade. Truenamer. Dragon Shaman. Many of them have combinations of abilities that kinda blow on their own but serve as the L bend LEGO you need for your star destroyer. Or they can’t do their job on their own and need some other features to be viable.

They still aren’t the BEST in gestalt. Your marshal example works fine, but it would be better if you replaced Marshal with Bard, or Dread Necromancer, or Sorcerer. No one is saying that marshal (or even knight, my personal least favorite gestalt without dropping to NPC classes like magewright, because of often non-synergistic features and code) contributes nothing. Sure, any cha based class improves by adding cha to a bunch of skills. That doesn’t mean marshal is a good class. Only that marshal has class features.