Hide checks, movement and vision.

[Tamior]

Hide checks, how do they work?
From reading and cross-referencing different parts of SRD, this much seems to be clear (correct me if I'm wrong):
- without any special abilities, you need to have cover or concealment to attempt a hide check (both to hide initially and to remain hidden)
- since cover or concealment are always relative to someone, hide check automatically fail vs targets that you don't have cover or concealment against

Now, things I'm not entirely sure about:
- which speed is your "normal" speed? Walk? Hustle? Can you make two moves a turn with your 1/2 your "normal" speed each without any penalty?
- if you move during a turn, do you need to constantly maintain cover/concealment, or do you need to have it only at the tile where you end your movement for the turn? I.e. can you move from behind one rock to behind a different rock if there is an "open" tile between them?
- is there any specific penalty if whoever is trying to spot you has intrinsically longer vision range? I.e. you are trying to move while hidden in complete darkness, you have darkvision 60', hostiles up ahead have darkvision 120'. Does that make any difference if you can still guess correctly which side you should keep covered?

[SangoProduction]

Hide checks, how do they work?
From reading and cross-referencing different parts of SRD, this much seems to be clear (correct me if I'm wrong):
- without any special abilities, you need to have cover or concealment to attempt a hide check (both to hide initially and to remain hidden)
- since cover or concealment are always relative to someone, hide check automatically fail vs targets that you don't have cover or concealment against

Now, things I'm not entirely sure about:
- which speed is your "normal" speed? Walk? Hustle? Can you make two moves a turn with your 1/2 your "normal" speed each without any penalty?
- if you move during a turn, do you need to constantly maintain cover/concealment, or do you need to have it only at the tile where you end your movement for the turn? I.e. can you move from behind one rock to behind a different rock if there is an "open" tile between them?
- is there any specific penalty if whoever is trying to spot you has intrinsically longer vision range? I.e. you are trying to move while hidden in complete darkness, you have darkvision 60', hostiles up ahead have darkvision 120'. Does that make any difference if you can still guess correctly which side you should keep covered?

1) Yes. Each action can be used, moving at 1/2 your speed with each one. I'm almost certain.
2) "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check." But it doesn't say you must maintain cover. With that said, since Hide is made as part of the movement, if you don't begin nor end in cover, then you can't hide. And if you only begin your move in cover, and don't get in to cover before the end of your turn....you're going to be "sneaking around" in plain sight. Which isn't entirely helpful.
(In my house rules, I allow free movement with Stealth, unless there's a reason why the perceivers are particularly aware, there's a particular lack of any sort of cover, they were already observed before or something else weird. But that's just how I run things.)
3) Nope. If they don't have darkvision, and you are in darkness, they take the appropriate darkness penalty to spot you. If they've got sufficient darkvision, then they don't take the penalty. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Tamior]

1) Yes. Each action can be used, moving at 1/2 your speed with each one. I'm almost certain.

"Your speed" being the hustle speed, i.e. 30' for a human?



(In my house rules, I allow free movement with Stealth, unless there's a reason why the perceivers are particularly aware, there's a particular lack of any sort of cover, they were already observed before or something else weird. But that's just how I run things.)

Ok, a goblin scout (60' darkvision) is sitting on a log next to a door at the end of 90' long dungeon corridor, looking down said corridor. He's in the middle of his 8-hours watchman shift and it's a pretty average day for the goblin, he's not expecting anything unusual.
Corridor is your average dungeon corridor with masonry walls and flagstone floor.
Any change for a medium-sized creature to remain hidden, given it has the same or even lower darkvision range?

[Crake]

- if you move during a turn, do you need to constantly maintain cover/concealment, or do you need to have it only at the tile where you end your movement for the turn? I.e. can you move from behind one rock to behind a different rock if there is an "open" tile between them?

Moving between cover/concealment and remaining hidden is possible, but it comes at a penalty. The skill usage is in complete adventurer, and it states that for every 5 ranks in hide you possess you can cover a distance of 5 feet of open space without automatically being seen. For every 5 feet you move through open terrain, you take a -5 penalty on your hide check, and if you move more than half your movement speed, you take the normal speed penalty based on how fast you were going.


2) "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check." But it doesn't say you must maintain cover. With that said, since Hide is made as part of the movement, if you don't begin nor end in cover, then you can't hide. And if you only begin your move in cover, and don't get in to cover before the end of your turn....you're going to be "sneaking around" in plain sight. Which isn't entirely helpful.

This is the rule in pathfinder, but since the OP is mentioning hide checks, and not stealth checks, I assume they're playing 3.5 not pathfinder.


- is there any specific penalty if whoever is trying to spot you has intrinsically longer vision range? I.e. you are trying to move while hidden in complete darkness, you have darkvision 60', hostiles up ahead have darkvision 120'. Does that make any difference if you can still guess correctly which side you should keep covered?

This is basically the same as trying to hide against someone you can't see yourself, I don't think there's any RAW penalties for this, and I mean, people hide from others they can't see all the time while hiding, so I see no reason to institute any penalties.

[Fizban]

Rules Compendium is what you want for the fullest version of the Hide rules (under Movement- Hide).

Hiding is part of movement: whenever you move, you can roll Hide. If you moved more than half your speed in that move action, you take -5 , and if you run you take -20. The wording makes it sound like moving your full speed should give a greater than -5 penalty, but none is given. Thus hiding while double moving at your full speed is apparently a -5, but also two checks. "Hustle" is just the overland term for double moving. You can move between patches of cover or concealment at a penalty of -5 per 5' of distance you need to cover (simplified from -1 per 1'), and you can do the same thing to just sneak directly up on someone.

There is no "penalty for relative vision." There is a spot penalty of -1 for every 10' of distance between the spotter and whatever is provoking a spot check, and this is a *critical* component of every sneaking situation. It's what allows people without a bajillion ranks to not be spotted a mile away, and when combined with your own bonus tells you/the DM how much you can get away with without even rolling. If your foes have darkvision 120' and you are relying on darkvision 60', they will almost certainly spot you before you have a chance to hide if you are walking in the open. If you are already moving stealthily, as people usually declare when they expect enemies ahead and intend to not be seen, then you're already rolling hide, which works no matter who or where or what tries to see you as long as your cover/concealment holds up to them. Luckily you have eyes, so you can see whether or not there's anything to cover your approach, and plan a route accordingly. At least if your DM has actually prepared that information.

Note that because hide is part of movement, if you have enough move you can go from seen to out of sight to a space with cover/concealment where you are now rolling hide. Attacking reveals your position, but you can then move to break line of sight and back into hiding in a single move action. This means it's actually quite easy to sneak attack every round from a corner or the edge of a fog by popping in and out. The "sniping" rules make people think this is impossible, but that -20 is for maintaining your hide *without* leaving your space to break line of sight.

[Tamior]

Moving between cover/concealment and remaining hidden is possible, but it comes at a penalty. The skill usage is in complete adventurer, and it states that for every 5 ranks in hide you possess you can cover a distance of 5 feet of open space without automatically being seen. For every 5 feet you move through open terrain, you take a -5 penalty on your hide check, and if you move more than half your movement speed, you take the normal speed penalty based on how fast you were going.

Ah, yes, that's more or less what I was looking for. Thank you.
Though it IS very strange it's based on ranks, and not bonus. Under this logic a cat with +16 to hide can't try to move between covers, while a level 2 bard can.

[Melcar]

Hide checks, how do they work?
From reading and cross-referencing different parts of SRD, this much seems to be clear (correct me if I'm wrong):
- without any special abilities, you need to have cover or concealment to attempt a hide check (both to hide initially and to remain hidden)
- since cover or concealment are always relative to someone, hide check automatically fail vs targets that you don't have cover or concealment against

Now, things I'm not entirely sure about:
- which speed is your "normal" speed? Walk? Hustle? Can you make two moves a turn with your 1/2 your "normal" speed each without any penalty?
- if you move during a turn, do you need to constantly maintain cover/concealment, or do you need to have it only at the tile where you end your movement for the turn? I.e. can you move from behind one rock to behind a different rock if there is an "open" tile between them?
- is there any specific penalty if whoever is trying to spot you has intrinsically longer vision range? I.e. you are trying to move while hidden in complete darkness, you have darkvision 60', hostiles up ahead have darkvision 120'. Does that make any difference if you can still guess correctly which side you should keep covered?

A few things:

You after you have used cover to hide, you can move out of cover 5 ft. Per 5 ranks in hide!

Also in complete darkness you either don’t have to make a hide check, if your opponent don’t have dark vision or you can’t hide because dark vision removes the cover darkness give you. Likewise, shadowy illumination is negated by low light vision...

[Crichton]

Ah, yes, that's more or less what I was looking for. Thank you.
Though it IS very strange it's based on ranks, and not bonus. Under this logic a cat with +16 to hide can't try to move between covers, while a level 2 bard can.

That is VERY odd and not at all well thought out... Seems like it would make a lot more sense to have it be a thing you can do if you have a minimum of 5 ranks, so you have some trained skill in it, but then use your total Hide modifier for the calculation, to take into account any natural stealthiness you have (like, as you say, a cat), and account for any magical or nonmagical hide bonuses that are in place from gear or spells or such.

[SangoProduction]

This is the rule in pathfinder, but since the OP is mentioning hide checks, and not stealth checks, I assume they're playing 3.5 not pathfinder.

I actually quoted from the 3.5 SRD, and it didn't say that you needed to maintain cover, just in order to make the check, you'd need cover. And then filled in based on my previous knowledge from there.
Sorry if I ended up being incorrect.

[Tamior]

So as far as I understand the major benefit for being a below medium-sized creature for hiding would be not only your bonus to hide checks, but also what constitutes cover for you?
I. e. a mice will likely be able to use stones protruding from your average dungeon floor for cover?