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View Full Version : Optimization RAVEN SOUL : thematically optimising Shadow Blade for insane damage



Fevvers
2019-01-26, 09:54 AM
Raven Soul ~ Eldritch Soul



A ridiculously OP Melee DPR build for Eldritch Knight/Divine Soul focusing on Shadow Blade & Booming Blade, with TPK Management as their secondary role. RAW & RAI, No UA, Not AL compliant, requires Feats and Multi-Classing variant rules. Shadar-kai would be ideal mechanically and thematically.


Build Notes

This build is designed to maximise the synergy between Booming Blade, Warcaster, Shadow Blade, Twin-casting, Mobile, Elven Accuracy and War Magic for Melee DPR, with Action Surge & Hexblade’s Curse for Nova.

As a secondary role this build is designed to Tank its way through a TPK, providing emergency Healing Word, Revivify and Mass Healing Word to get the party back on its feet, while protecting self with Protection against Evil & Good (PEG), Darkness, Warding Wind and Blur. There are options to also pack Rope Trick and Catnap for emergency short rests in hostile territory after a near-TPK. Scatter at 20th level.

Tertiary roles are as a Party Buffer with Aid, Death Ward and Freedom of Movement (FoM) from 14th-20th level, and an everyday buffer of ability checks with Guidance, able to be delivered via familiar, from 5th level, and Control, using Booming Blade & Mobile.

You are up and running at 7th level, getting pretty god-like at 11th, with more big DPR boosts at 13th, 16th, 17th and 20th. Five ASIs are available: at 4th, 8th, 10th, 13th & 17th level.


Roles

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104337&d=1548445662


DM’s Notes (a.k.a. But How Do I Kill It?)

Very reliant on magical damage, especially psychic & thunder, delivered at melee range, and thus very susceptible to magical damage limitation. Low Wisdom and Intelligence saves, mediocre Charisma saves. That old classic, an illithid riding an enslaved beholder should ‘solve’ any ongoing issues you may have with this build being too OP. Dominate Person and similar will annoy them until they get Resilient (Wisdom).


Colour Code

Gold Yes!
Blue Highly Recommended
Green Reasonable
Red Better than nothing
Black Nope


Ability Scores

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104366&d=1548511323

I’ve given a possible 9 in Strength for those using Variant Encumbrance rules. Very difficult to wear a breastplate and maintain mobility on an 8 Strength. If you aren’t using Variant Encumbrance then 8 is sufficient. You will have proficiency in Strength saves and take Athletics to make up for your low base score.

Dexterity is your maxing-out stat. You will be using Shadow Blade as a finesse weapon, as a Dexterity-based fighter. It’s your boost to AC, Initiative and a major saving throw.

Constitution is your second favourite ability score. You’re a front-line fighter: plentiful hit points and a solid Constitution saving throw is mandatory.

Intelligence is completely useless to you, except in a role-playing sense. You will not be using any attack that requires an Intelligence based spell attack or Intelligence saving throw.

Wisdom is where any spare points go; Wisdom saves are a big deal. The very last thing any party wants is a god-like fighter turning on the party while under Dominate Person. You need to choose whether you take 9 and upgrade to 10 with the Resilient (Wisdom) feat later, (at 13th level) or take it at 10, upgraded later to 11. If you’re not using Variant Encumbrance rules, go 10. (This advice is quite different if you’re playing a Half-Elf, impacts Charisma too, see below).

Charisma needs to be 13 to multi-class into Sorceror (and possibly Warlock). It’s a great stat, and will affect most spell attacks that you use that require a saving throw. However, this build seeks to avoid saving throws, so, 14 is as high as you need, unless you’re a Half-Elf, and want to take some social skills.

Half-Elves either take 14 in Charisma and 13 (later to become 14 with Resilient (Wisdom)) Wisdom (after racial modifiers), or 16 Charisma, 9/10 Wisdom (later 10/11 with Resilient (Wisdom)). First choice allows half-elf characters greater scope in deciding their extra skills: Insight, Perception & Survival become viable. Second choice improves DC for offensive cantrips, and makes taking a social skill worth the investment.


Races

(1) Shadar-kai Perfect in every way, including thematically.

(2) Sea elves They’re elves, with the necessary +2 Dexterity & +1 Constitution, but lacking the wonderful Raven Queen’s Blessing and resistance to Necrotic damage. Also, they are harder to link into the build thematically, I think, but that’s most likely my own lack of imagination.

(3) Warforged (Skirmisher) if they could take Elven Accuracy they’d be gold.

(4) Goblins Yes, Goblins! +2 Dex, +1 Con, Darkvision, 30ft movement even though Small. They don’t have access to Elven Accuracy, however, their innate Disengage ability, means that you could forgo taking Mobile and take Squat Nimbleness instead, with Shield Mastery instead of Elven Accuracy. You also get to use Hide, and Fury of the Smol is kind of cute. However, Disengage and Hide burn up your bonus action, which, along with no Elven Accuracy will significantly affect your DPR. Also, no innate Misty Step. On the other hand, watching BBEGs getting torn to shreds by a goblin... hehehe. One for the great players.

(5) Stout Halflings Like goblins, but with no darkvision, and only 25ft movement. Again, no Elven Accuracy, and you have to take Mobile, so no option for Shield Mastery. Squat Nimbleness is still a very good choice however. On the plus side, resistance to Poison damage means you can forgo taking Protection from Poison and take Darkvision instead, until you obtain a pair of Night-Vision Goggles and then take, say, Misty Step. You are also Lucky and Brave. You can do it, but it’s going to be a bit of a struggle. One for the greater players.

(6) Variant Human You’re not an elf. No darkvision. No resistances. You’re not lucky, brave or all that nimble. You will have to take +2 Dexterity instead of Elven Accuracy, and getting hold of night-vision goggles must be a priority. However, you can take Shield Mastery at 1st level, and you’re a Dex-based fighter...

(7) Half-Elf Every list, there it is, the ubiquitous half-elf. The biggest problem with the half-elf is that your starting Dex is 16, making maxing it and getting Elven Accuracy something of a dilemma. One to consider if you’ve rolled your stats and can get 17 Dexterity after applying racial modifiers. On the plus side, with point-buy, your Wisdom needn’t be quite so awful.

Shadar-kai Raven Soul

The Shadar-kai is perfect for this build both mechanically and thematically. I didn’t actually set out to make a Shadar-kai specific build – initially, I was just looking for an elf sub-race that had Constitution as its secondary ability score modifier. However, resistance to Necrotic damage is excellent, adding nicely to the list of damage types this build can effectively be resistant to. Raven Queen’s Blessing is amazing; it makes the Shadar-kai perfect for TPK Management - a once-a-day get-out-of-jail-free card that also gives you a round of resistance to all damage. Which, should be as long as you need to drop one of your defensive spells or heal/revive the fallen before you all run away, ahem, make a strategic withdrawal to fight another day. It may be worth saving your Action Surge for this, when up against BBEGs. You also don’t need to take Misty Step as a spell choice, although Dimension Door is still very highly recommended for when you can get it.

Thematically, Shadar-kai is even better than it is crunch-wise. Consider the possibility of a Shadar-kai Eldritch Knight who, like all Shadar-kai is helping to maintain the Raven Queen by subsuming their personality into ‘Hers’. But there is, for some Shadar-kai, occasionally, a feedback loop, whereby the Raven Queen’s soul-essence begins to manifest through the Shadar-kai, allowing them to manifest much more advanced arcane powers than usual. Consider... that the Shadow Blade, around which this build is solidly based, could, perhaps, be a slice of the Void itself, and that exposure to the Final Reality is what causes those injured by it to suffer psychic damage as their sense of personality and identity disintegrate – just as the Raven Queen’s is said to do, albeit so much more slowly. Consider also, that as the Shadar-kai’s mastery of the Shadow Blade becomes more obvious, the Raven Queen may demand a formal Pact with this host for Her soul-essence, so as to maintain control over how Her powers are being used. In return, the Raven Queen offers to show Her ‘protégé’ how to rescue people, who’s time has not yet come, from near-death and how to perfect the use of the Shadow Blade... and so become... the Raven Soul.

I’m starting to think of this build as the Raven Queen’s answer to the Bladesingers of the Feywild.

I call this build Eldritch Soul when applied to any race other than Shadar-kai.


Skills

Acrobatics Escape grapples – vitally important when relying on Mobile.
Athletics You’ll be expected to be able to swim, climb and jump.
Perception Because it’s Perception, also, you’re probably an Elf.
Stealth Because being Dexterity-based, you can.
Deception } One of these, maybe, because you’ve got decent Charisma.
Intimidation} Intimidation seems most thematic, utilising Thaumaturgy...
Persuasion } Certainly this doesn't seem like a build that excels at diplomacy.
Insight If you’re taking a social skill.
Survival If you’re not.
Investigate Your Intelligence is meh, and not going to get better without magic.
Any other Dexterity or Charisma based skills.
Any other Wisdom or Intelligence based skills.


Backgrounds

If you can find a background that, along with Fighter, will enable you to take the four gold standard skills, plus, say, Thieves’ Tools, I’d say that was ideal.

Urban Bounty Hunter hits the spot nicely. Languages aren’t important, you’re not the party Face, and, while you can ably support the Point person, using Guidance and the Help action, you’re no Infiltrator. Note that proficiency with a Gaming Set allows you to make Insight checks with advantage according to Xanathar’s. This would synergise nicely with a social skill (looking at the half-elves...).


Multi-class split: 8/12, 9/11 or 8/11/1?

The Raven Soul was originally conceived as an 8/12 Eldritch Knight/Divine Soul build. However, 12th Sorceror is, frankly, very weak: no new spells or slots, +1 Sorcery Point and an ASI – which you only get at 20th level.


8th EK & 12th DS

If you are going 12th DS, recommended ASI upgrades are:



+2 Constitution or Tough. Hit points are great.
Shield Master. You have a shield and high Dexterity... say goodbye to oh so much Dexterity saving throw damage.
Elemental Adept (Thunder). Thunder is one of your main sources of consistent damage. All thunder damage 1’s become 2’s, and... nullifies resistance.


However, none of this is available until 20th level. On the other hand, not caring what you get at 20th level means you take every level from 13th onwards one level earlier.


9th EK & 11th DS

Alternatively, going 9th EK gives: Indomitable, at 15th level, when it still has some time to make a difference. It synergises nicely with Favoured of the Gods and it might even be worthwhile picking up the Resistance cantrip.

This is GOLD if your DM doesn’t permit the use of Pact Magic slots for non-Warlock spells.


8th EK, 11th DS & 1st Hex

Or, one level of Hexblade Warlock, for:



Hexblade’s Curse, which synergises amazingly with the rest of the build
2 more cantrips with a Charisma DC
Armour of Agathys
One more 1st level spell
One 1st level spell slot per short rest; which basically means one more Twincast per short rest (DM permitting)
Hex Warrior is pretty useless since you have Weapon Bond and are using Shadow Blade most of the time anyway.



Absolutely recommended; but at what level to take it? It pushes every level afterwards back one, slowing progress at early levels or, if taken too late will make little difference.


Why Divine Sorceror and Eldritch Knight?

Draconic Bloodline Sorceror would be an excellent alternative to Divine Soul if such a creature as a dragon that dealt thunder damage existed. Draconic Resilience is amazing for this build, taking Duelling Fighting Style instead of Defence. The minute WoTC brings out a dragon that does Thunder damage... (This would also make Elemental Adept (Thunder) incredibly attractive, even at 20th level).

However, since almost all damage is coming from Shadow Blade/Booming Blade, then leaving all other spell slots for heals, revives and buffs that can be Quickened or Twincast is pretty amazing. Eldritch Knight for War Magic, which really gets some love from this build, and the +2 to slot levels from being a 1/3rd caster gives access to 5th & 7th level Shadow Blade. The close-packed ASI/Feats at 4th, 8th, 10th and 13th level get the supporting feats online at the right time to make the DPR progression smooth and reasonably early (7th – 13th level is when everything starts coming together nicely).


Why not Paladin or Hexblade instead of Eldritch Knight?

I’m confident that Sorcadin and Hexblade Sorlocks have had a whole lot of love already. EK maximises the SB/BB synergy with War Magic giving a Shadow Blade attack as a bonus action after every Twincast Booming Blade (which also uses Shadow Blade). I feel this really makes EK blossom in the mid to late game when EK can seem, to me, to be a bit under-gunned.

Paladin does, of course, give Divine Smite, Aura of Protection and +4 to slot levels compared to EK’s +2, for -2 cantrips, -1 ASI/Feat, no War Magic, no Action Surge, and needs to be Strength-based otherwise MAD. Divine Smite will burn slots very quickly.

Hexblade gives 4 Invocations, a Pact Boon, +8 Sorcery Points per short rest (!), for -1 cantrip, -1 ASI/Feat, no War Magic, no Action Surge, no Fighting Style and no Second Attack (Shadow Blade is not a Pact Weapon) so very Twincast dependent. Not as MAD as a Paladin, but still needs Dexterity for SB/BB since Hex Warrior cannot apply to Shadow Blade.


Why not just be a Bladesinger?

Why not, indeed? Bladesingers get tons of versatility, best AC, and is a great Shadow Blade vehicle. However, Bladesingers can’t Twincast Booming Blade, which means BB damage only comes from Warcaster opportunity attacks. And maybe you don’t want to be hanging around for attacks of opportunity? Given that having to max both Dexterity and Intelligence means very little left over for Constitution, and you have a d6 for hit points. The Raven Soul is a good deal less squishy than the Bladesinger, and dishes out more damage. Also: heals.

I can easily imagine the two traditions being great rivals, and that a laconic and fatalistic Shadar-kai might value ‘a good death’ at the hands of a master Bladesinger more highly than yet another victory over less worthy opponents.


The Build

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104338&d=1548368219
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104339&d=1548445986
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104340&d=1548446043
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104341&d=1548446099
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104342&d=1548446294
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104343&d=1548446340
http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104344&d=1548446373


Magic Items

Assuming a High Magic setting (i.e. that magic items are plentiful), I’d suggest:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104345&d=1548447933

Adamantine Breastplate

You’ll be wearing a breastplate for most of the characters’ adventuring life. You’re a frontline fighter. Critical hits are very annoying. This becomes a less essential item once you aquire a Cloak of Displacement (0. 25% chance of a Critical Hit, aka 400:1) and should be replaced with magical studded leather after that.

Winged Boots (requires attunement)

Flying is great. At-will flight is even better. Winged Boots give a flying speed equal to your walking speed, which means that if Hasted after picking up Mobile, you could have a flying speed of 80ft./round, Dash while flying for 160ft./round; as fast as dragons.

Sentinel Shield

The advantage given to initiative outweighs the lack of a +1 to AC. To get the most from the Control aspect of Booming Blade you need to be attacking before the enemy does, so as to tie targets up before they can get stickied on your squishier party members. The same goes, arguably even more importantly, for reacting to a near-TPK incident – you really want to be getting your protection and heal spells cast and then getting the hell out of Hell before the enemy can step in and finish you all off. Your excellent Dexterity score gives you a good chance of this when combined with the advantage from this item. Advantage gives an 80% chance of rolling 10 or higher, +3/+4/+5 initiative modifier from 17/18/20 Dexterity, gives a 36%-43%-51% chance of an initiative count of 20+. Perception checks with advantage are nice too. Note that RAI this will add +5 to your passive Perception too.

Pearl of Power (requires attunement, spellcaster only)

Three more twincasts or one more 3rd level casting of Shadow Blade every single day, need I say more? It’s a great shame to part with this for a Ring of Spell Storing at 17th. This helps to balance out the lack of sorcery points due to EK levels.

Cloak of Displacement (requires attunement)

You can’t use Blur and Shadow Blade simultaneously. Giving enemies who rely on sight disadvantage to hit you is a very good thing. An enemy with a +10 attack modifier has an 84% chance to hit a 19 AC (your base AC for most of your character’s adventuring career) without disadvantage, 36% with. To hit 24 AC (taking into account Shield) the same enemy has a 35% chance without disadvantage, 12.3% with. Swap Blur out for Revivify as soon as convenient once you aquire this item.

Rapier +1

Sometimes, there will be enemies who are immune to psychic damage. Constructs loom largely in mind. Or you’ll need to fight in melee while under the effect of one of your protection spells. A non-magical silvered adamantine rapier might suffice...

Ring of Spell Storing (requires attunement)

Lots of Shield and Absorb Elements spells is very good indeed. From 12th level onwards you will have five 1st level slots and three 2nd level slots. Once you have a Ring of Spell Storing, try to keep your 1st level slots unused throughout the day, relying on the RoSS instead. This gives you eight potential slots for Shield and Absorb Elements. Since Absorb Elements can be upcast at 2nd level but Shield cannot, storing four Shield spells and one Absorb Elements spell in the RoSS gives you the possibility of four of each, per day. Your five unused first level slots can be used to restock the RoSS, or, much more likely, for the inevitable emergencies.

Studded Leather +2

No more attunement slots left. AC is god. You’re definitely back in leathers after 17th level and your +2 Dexterity ASI.

(Broom of Flying)

If you cannot bear to give up the Pearl of Power then give up Winged Boots and Rapier +1 instead, and take the annoying Broom. It takes both hands to operate, and is thus seemingly quite useless for combat. Prove me wrong.


Arcane Power

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104346&d=1548448196

*Power is calculated by totalling the number of spell slots available for each level, and multiplying by the slot level e.g. four 1st level slots = 4*1 = 4, three 2nd level slots = 3*2 = 6, and then adding daily available sorcery points to the total. A Pact magic slot is worth three times as much, e.g. two 5th level Pact Magic slots = 2*(5*3) = 30.

Caveat: this is my own rating invention to give a rough numerical value to gauge differences in arcane power between levels and classes.

Comparing the magical power of the two source classes with the multi-class, I think the Eldritch Soul comes out quite favourably at about halfway in between the two, while having more cantrips and spells available than either source class.

The table below gives a side-by-side comparison of growth in arcane power of all three classes. I haven’t gone to the indulgence of calculating *Power for every level.

Key

CL: Class Level
P: Sorcery Points
C: Cantrips known
S: Spells known
L: Maximum spell level available (this only affects the Raven Soul)
Spell Slots (1-x): Number of spell slots available for each spell level

Note that the fifth 1st level slot the Raven Soul gets at 12th level is a Pact slot.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=104364&d=1548509506

It is noticable that the Raven Soul build has a significant slowing down of increase in arcane power between 9th – 13th levels. However, you are picking up two attacks, Elven Accuracy, War Magic, Hexblade’s Curse and Resilient (Wisdom) during this time. You have a steady supply of 3rd level slots for Shadow Blade, Booming Blade boosts at 11th level, and with a Pearl of Power in your possession, a reasonable number of Sorcery Points to Twincast with.


Additional Thoughts

Certainly there is a case to be made for dumping EK 7-8 and Hexblade 1, and going DS 5 at 11th level instead. This gives 5th level Shadow Blade at 13th, and 7th level Shadow Blade at 17th. No War Magic or Hexblade’s Curse. Hmmm, Elven Accuracy still arrives at 10th, Resilient (Wisdom) and +2 Dexterity ASI are both put back, but only one level, to 14th and 18th respectively. This also opens up 7th level spells and an 8th level slot, as well as giving you Otherworldly Wings at 20th level. A very nice capstone indeed! And 8th level Globe of Invulnerability means you can still retain your 6th level slot for Scatter... but... no 3-5d8+4-11 bonus attack every turn, from 11th level onwards, nor 30% crits from 12th. Choices, choices... hmmmm.

Cantrip choices

This build gives you ten cantrips. Thank you, yes, you're welcome! You have to take Booming Blade and Thaumaturgy, and it would seem foolish not to take Guidance if it is so conveniently available, especially since you will have a familiar who can deliver Guidance to other party members by touch.

My suggestions for the remaining seven are completely replacable. The ones I have suggested offer a variety of damage types and saving throws for those situations when your main attack isn't an option.

Feedback Please!

I would be interested to hear your thoughts about this build. Any improvements or questions readily responded to. Thank you for taking the time to read this, my first build!

Unoriginal
2019-01-26, 10:40 AM
I'm sorry, could you show us your calculations showing how this build's damage's output is insane, please?

Also, Shadow Blade isn't a viable target for Twinned Metamagic. Since it doesn't target a creature.

jaappleton
2019-01-26, 11:11 AM
I'm sorry, could you show us your calculations showing how this build's damage's output is insane, please?

Also, Shadow Blade isn't a viable target for Twinned Metamagic. Since it doesn't target a creature.

Emphasis mine.

This is correct.

Finney
2019-01-26, 11:21 AM
Also, Shadow Blade isn't a viable target for Twinned Metamagic. Since it doesn't target a creature.

I only skimmed through the original post, but I think the general idea is to use Twinned Spell for Booming Blade - not Shadow Blade.

jaappleton
2019-01-26, 11:24 AM
I only skimmed through the original post, but I think the general idea is to use Twinned Spell for Booming Blade - not Shadow Blade.

Twinning BB still means the second target has to be within range, and it can't be the same target. So you can't hit the first target twice, and you need another target within 5ft of the first one.

Additionally, you can't have the Familiar circumvent that. BB does not have a range of Touch.

Finney
2019-01-26, 11:30 AM
Twinning BB still means the second target has to be within range, and it can't be the same target. So you can't hit the first target twice, and you need another target within 5ft of the first one.

Additionally, you can't have the Familiar circumvent that. BB does not have a range of Touch.

I understand how Twinned Spell works.

I was merely pointing out that the OP likely intended for Twinned Spell to be used with Booming Blade and not with Shadow Blade. It is not uncommon to have multiple targets within 5 ft., but at the same time I wouldn't base an entire build or guide on that presupposition.

jaappleton
2019-01-26, 11:31 AM
I understand how Twinned Spell works.

I was merely pointing out that the OP likely intended for Twinned Spell to be used with Booming Blade and not with Shadow Blade. It is not uncommon to have multiple targets within 5 ft., but at the same time I wouldn't base an entire build or guide on that presupposition.

By no means was I questioning your knowledge. If it came across that way, it was unintentional.

It was more me rattling off reasons why this whole build doesn't... actually seem to really be practical, all that much.

Finney
2019-01-26, 11:34 AM
By no means was I questioning your knowledge. If it came across that way, it was unintentional.

It was more me rattling off reasons why this whole build doesn't... actually seem to really be practical, all that much.

I agree with you.

The "insane damage" part of this build/guide requires that you always have two targets within 5 ft. in order to twin Booming Blade. That's a pretty big assumption on the part of the OP.

Boci
2019-01-26, 11:36 AM
By no means was I questioning your knowledge. If it came across that way, it was unintentional.

It was more me rattling off reasons why this whole build doesn't... actually seem to really be practical, all that much.

Seems like it would be decent against the party as an NPC. Eldritch knight 4 / Divine Sorceror 2, shadowblade and twinned BB for 3d8+3 damage to two PCs. Could be an early BBEG, or one of their elite guards.

Corran
2019-01-26, 11:45 AM
I agree with you.

The "insane damage" part of this build/guide requires that you always have two targets within 5 ft. in order to twin Booming Blade. That's a pretty big assumption on the part of the OP.
Two targets within 5 feet is not that unlikely to happen, but even if you don't, it's ok, as sp are not infinite. What strikes me as less practical, is basing a significant part of the build on the mobile feat. BB skirmishers work best when they can strike enemies that have no allies of the skirmisher adjacent to them. And when you are using twinned bb, then it's hard to pull this off. Unless of course you whole party is mimicking or adapting to your hit and run tactics.

Finney
2019-01-26, 11:48 AM
To the OP: I like the guide, by the way. It is well written and the formatting is fantastic. My criticisms are meant to be constructive, so if they haven't come off that way - sorry.

The warlock dip at 12th seems too late to be worth it. I would start warlock, so that you can be SAD from the start. Alternatively, I would go fighter 2, warlock 1, fighter 3 (EK) and then sorcerer (DS).

Otherwise, I would skip the warlock dip entirely.

LudicSavant
2019-01-26, 12:34 PM
Feedback Please![/B]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts about this build. Any improvements or questions readily responded to. Thank you for taking the time to read this, my first build!

You could improve the build guide by including DPR calculations (rather than just "damage assuming everything hits") and listing exactly what resources are being expended for any given DPR number.

RSP
2019-01-26, 01:27 PM
I think Bladesinger is a better bet for optimizing SB: the built-in Extra Attack means much more consistent uses than relying on Spell Points. Particularly when up-cast and dealing with multiple encounters a day, SB twice a round will our pace GFB and meta magic.

For this type of BS, I actually think Dex>Con>Int, as melee participation is a must and the added HPs and Conc Save will go farther than an extra point of AC (seeing as you’ll be relying on Shield anyway).

Asmotherion
2019-01-26, 01:34 PM
Why not Quiken BB instead? it's far more reliable than Twin and won't fail you in case of a duel.

Or get both if SP ecconomy is an issue. Both are good options after all.

Overall this build seems pretty normal though. Nothing quite "insane".

Fevvers
2019-01-26, 03:20 PM
Wow, quite a few replies! I'll try and cover as much as I can!

First of all, please allow me to issue a general apology for using the word 'insane' as a metaphorical numerical value! I suppose I could have said, "quite a lot of damage really, far more than I anticipated when I started thinking about this build, and definitely situation dependent to pull it all off", but I went for 'insane' instead. I am metaphorically quite sorry. :smalleek: Gotta admit I did not expect 75d8+40 at 20th level when I first started the academic exercise of wondering just how far Shadow Blade/Booming Blade could be taken.

Secondly, I thought I had included the DPR calculations in The Build section. At 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 16th, 17th and 20th there is a table insert describing damage output for each potential attack possible if cast at highest slot level for that character level. 'Triggered' refers to Thunder damage triggered by moving. I'm sorry that I haven't gone to the level of detail whereby I compare damage output to probability of hitting, and seek a median value of DPR against say, AC20. If you feel that is necessary I'll get to work on it. It'll be fun!

Thirdly, and this I will get to work on asap: this build definitely needs an Action & Slot Economy section. I've known that since the beginning, and will write up the expenditure across multiple encounters per day. I hang my head in complete acknowledgement of this severe shortcoming.


I completely acknowledge within the build that there aren't a lot of Sorcery Points between 9-13th , and no increase until 14th. There's enough for one twincast per encounter if we assume a four encounter day. With a Pearl of Power, nearly two twincasts per encounter, enough to bring off the Action Surge nova. I forsaw using 3rd level slots for Shadow Blade, 2nd for Absorb Elements and 1st for Shield. There are a few notes in the build regarding when spells like Shield of Faith and Blur are added, and when they are dropped, and why. This clearly needs some expansion though. Thank you.

Fourthly, I would read that opponents only need to be within 5' of the Raven Soul, not 5' of each other.


Twinned Spell:

When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).

To be eligible for Twinned Spell, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell's current level.

That seems, to me, to say, in range of the caster, and since the attack is a melee attack, then, within melee range of the caster at the time of casting. I dunno, what do you think?

Fifthly, crikey - fifthly - um, oh yeah, the warlock dip - I tried play-testing it much earlier and, oddly enough, it just didn't see much use. Probably my own unimaginative play I expect. At 12th though, that double crit chance coming after Elven Accuracy and all those lovely dice at 11th seemed a good spot to put it. But you're right, it could be put anywhere.

Sixthly, obviously Bladesinger is amazing for Shadow Blade. I'm pretty sure I mention that in the section sub-titled Why not just be a Bladesinger? Can I reiterate that I was interested in maximising damage output from the Shadow Blade/Booming Blade synergy and that twincasting followed by the bonus attack from War Magic, plus the Action Surge possibilities where what lit my fires?

Seventhly, you're damn right. This isn't a perfect or practical build. It was never intended to be. It is a high hit point, high AC, saves in Str, Dex, Con and Wis, and occasionally quite a lot of damage build. As an day-dreaming exercise it absorbed more and more of my attention during this year until I felt I really ought to give it some serious attention. This is the result. There are obviously better builds, but this one is mine, and I throw down the gauntlet to you:

Can you maximise the Shadow Blade/Booming Blade DPR synergy more than this build? I would be delighted to see it (truly!).

Eigthly, oddly enough this build came out of an idea for an NPC nemesis..! :smallcool:

Ninethly, I do mention that Hexblade can be done away with completely, in the section sub-titled: Multi-class split: 8/12, 9/11 or 8/11/1?

Tenthly, aw thanks about the formatting, I am a little proud of that!

Okay, hope that answers a few if not all your questions. Sorry I didn't multi-quote. I hope I haven't seemed brusque or anything! And I apologise I have inadvertently missed your feedback out in this reply. I really appreciated all of your feedback, and all and any feedback to come! Chars! :smallsmile:

LudicSavant
2019-01-26, 04:09 PM
Secondly, I thought I had included the DPR calculations in The Build section. At 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 16th, 17th and 20th there is a table insert describing damage output for each potential attack possible if cast at highest slot level for that character level. 'Triggered' refers to Thunder damage triggered by moving. I'm sorry that I haven't gone to the level of detail whereby I compare damage output to probability of hitting, and seek a median value of DPR against say, AC20. If you feel that is necessary I'll get to work on it. It'll be fun!

Average DPR and average damage assuming everything is a normal hit (rather than a miss or crit) are not the same figure, and the former is a more useful measurement of practical damage output (and makes it easier to compare to other builds). That might seem like nitpicking, but you'd be surprised how many builds can look a lot better or worse than they really are by leaving out such variables.

I don't know if it's "necessary" but you asked for improvements you could make to the build guide, and I feel that would be one of them. Have fun :smallsmile:

Malaketh
2019-01-26, 07:10 PM
I am by no means an expert on build making, but you're so close to second attack, why go for sorcerer at CL 5? Is it just to get Shadow blade at 7th rather than 8th? If so that doesn't seem worth it but I may be missing something.

RogueJK
2019-01-26, 07:14 PM
I think Bladesinger is a better bet for optimizing SB: the built-in Extra Attack means much more consistent uses than relying on Spell Points. Particularly when up-cast and dealing with multiple encounters a day, SB twice a round will our pace GFB and meta magic.

For this type of BS, I actually think Dex>Con>Int, as melee participation is a must and the added HPs and Conc Save will go farther than an extra point of AC (seeing as you’ll be relying on Shield anyway).

I agree that Shadow Blade works well on a Bladesinger (as well as an Arcane Trickster), but disagree with prioritizing CON over INT on a Bladesinger, even on one that will be more focused on melee. A 14-16 CON is enough.

You can then put those two ASIs you'd otherwise be spending on boosting CON towards boosting INT plus taking the Tough feat, which has the same payoff in HP in one ASI than boosting CON would in two ASIs.

For example, by going +4 CON on two ASIs, you'll end up with +2 HP per level, and +2 to your Concentration checks.

But by going +2 INT and Tough instead, you'll still end up +2 HP per level, you'll end up with a Concentration check bonus that's only 1 point lower (since the INT boost will give it +1 thanks to Bladesong), and you'll also have +1 to spell attacks, +1 to spell DC, +1 to number of spells prepared, +1 to AC, and +1 to melee damage on every attack.

And that one missing point on your Concentration bonus won't matter much, since your bonus will still be very high. With Bladesong's +INT to Concentration plus either Resilient CON's Proficiency or a 1st Level Fighter dip's CON Proficiency, you don't need a super high CON stat to have an outstanding Concentration save. (Your Concentration gets even more ridiculous if you can squeeze out another ASI somewhere for Warcaster to get Advantage on the roll, but that will likely only be possible if you roll well on your initial stats.)


Taking the 1st level in Fighter before going straight Bladesinger not only saves you an ASI by not needing to take Resilient, it also nets you 4 more HP (maxed d10 at 1st level instead of d6), you get a tiny bit of self healing, and you get a Fighting Style to boot. You can take Defense for a slightly higher AC, but I'd recommend taking either Two Weapon Fighting, for the greater boost to melee damage but the need to spent an ASI on the Warcaster feat to cast most spells with both hands full, or Dueling, for a lesser boost to melee damage but no need to take Warcaster. (Shadow Blade is Light, so you can TWF with it, and while the off-hand weapon won't be a Shadow Blade, it's a bonus attack that will also get both +DEX and +INT to its damage.)


Here's an example Shadar-Kai Fighter1/BladesingerX

With Point Buy:
STR 8
DEX 15+2
CON 15+1 (Or 13+1 if you don't like having 3 negative dump stats and want to increase one of them to 12 or two of them to 10)
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 8

Then go +1 DEX and +1 INT at 4th, Tough at 8th and +2 DEX at 12 (or vice versa), +2 INT at 16, and finally +2 INT at 19.

High Elf is also doable the same way, just swapping the 15+1 to INT, and doing +1 DEX and +1 CON at 4th. You'll get an extra cantrip, and it will make you a slightly more potent spellcaster with a slightly higher AC prior to Wizard4 due to the 16 INT, at the cost of having a few less HP before Wizard4 due to the 15 CON, and no Shadar-Kai necrotic resistance plus 1/day Misty Step with extra damage resistance. After Wizard4, there's no stat difference. (And personally, I think damage resistances and free Misty Step outweigh an extra cantrip and some slightly better early level spellcasting.)

Or if you roll stats, you'll want to assign them as DEX highest, INT next, and CON third (shooting for at least 14-16 if possible). Boost DEX to 20, take Tough, boost INT to 18 or 20, and if you have any spare ASIs left due to rolling well then take Warcaster to further enhance Concentration and allow for TWF, and finally maybe boost CON if you rolled ungodly well and have yet another spare ASI.

PeteNutButter
2019-01-26, 09:05 PM
I fail to see how Eldritch Knight is better than other options without taking it to level 11. Twinning BB becomes more and more difficult, especially in higher levels when combat is 3 dimensional. Enemies will be spread out.

On the flip side an EK 11/Sorc 6+ can do the 4d8 shadow blade 3 times on the same target and quicken a BB for more single target damage than your level 20 build. And it's far more consistent, getting almost all that damage from the one shadow blade slot. Having a 3rd attack on the attack action prevents you from ever getting that one 7th level slot, but it is such a massive boost in at will damage that it shatters that extra 1d8 you can get for 1 minute a day at level 20.

A note on BB riders: in my experience they happen so rarely, as your team usually messes it up by doing idiot things like trying to contribute in melee. Your mileage may vary.

My biggest feedback is probably to focus on single target damage as foes at 1 hp still do full damage. In deadly encounters that can often mean life or death.

RSP
2019-01-26, 11:19 PM
I agree that Shadow Blade works well on a Bladesinger (as well as an Arcane Trickster), but disagree with prioritizing CON over INT on a Bladesinger, even on one that will be more focused on melee...

First off, just my preference, but I dislike having 3 dump stats and usually go by standard array for theory builds even though my table rolls.

I dislike F1 as I hate delaying Wiz levels/abilities/spells, and I’d much rather have Int/Wis saves and get Resilient (Con), then Str and Con as saves (I’d never get Resilient (Wis) in this situation). Defensive requires wearing armor, which you can do with studded leather, but that still just equals you to Dex+Mage Armor.

Now, in addition to Resilient (Con), you’ll also need Elven Accuracy (since you should have Advantage with SB most of the time due to dim/dark lighting. So that’s 2 out of 5 ASIs used. If going standard array: 8 15 14 13 12 10 should work, with bumping up the Dex to 18 and Con to 16 with your first two ASIs.

That’ll be a 17 AC with Mage Armor and 18 with BS active, 23 with Shield when needed, until upping Dex to 20 at level 12.

9 HPs level 1, with 7 per level through 15, assuming level 12 ASI is +2 Dex. At 16 the build can either up Con to 18 or Int to 14 or take a Feat. But the HPs will be very close to a d10 martial (Pally and Ranger won’t increase Con due to MAD, Fighter might after maxing Str but it’s still usually secondary to feats), as most live with Con 14 at most through most of their career. A Half Elf Pally for instance, might have stats as 15 8 13 10 12 14, bumping Str and Cha to 16 and Con to 14, after racials. A Wood Elf Ranger might go 8 15 14 10 13 12. Either one is adding to their attack stat and casting stat prior to Con, in most cases.

The HP difference between these classes and the Con BS is about 1 hit, which, on average, Shield is going to account for (as well as an additional point or two of standard AC), throughout the adventuring day.

On average, this build will likewise at least keep pace, HP-wise, with other gish classes, while having a better AC while BS is active and Shield on top of that.

Int helps the BS, certainly, but if melee focused and building around SB, you don’t need it for casting: Shield, SB, Misty Step, Absorb Elements, Mage Armor, etc. aren’t impacted by Int. You can be a very successful melee BS without needing you casting DC.

Also, if playing with magic items (and most do), a Headband of Intellect is Uncommon, while an Amulet of Health is Rare; moreover, you may find a lot of competition for the Amulet of Health in the group (again, the other frontliners probably gain as much as the BS in terms of what their Con score is compared to setting it at 19). No one, however, is going to benefit from the Headband of Intellect as much as the BS, as any other Wizard subclass will be maxing Int anyway, and will want a 20, not a 19: the Headband is yours for the taking.

Ganymede
2019-01-27, 12:43 AM
You use the word "thematic" in your title, but I'm not sure you're using it correctly. Doing lots of damage is not a theme.

Malifice
2019-01-27, 06:42 AM
Firstly, this is an insane amount of work.

Secondly, none of this makes any sense. Like, you multi class at 5th level (meaning you miss extra attack). Meaning from 5th level to 12th level you're worse off than a straight up EK of the same level.

And the whole PC is based around a single schtick that is insanely specific (twin vs two targets), and so resource intensive to the extent that its only capable of doing it for one or two combats per adventuring day.

I'm not seeing it.

Fevvers
2019-01-27, 09:01 AM
Firstly, this is an insane amount of work.

Secondly, none of this makes any sense. Like, you multi class at 5th level (meaning you miss extra attack). Meaning from 5th level to 12th level you're worse off than a straight up EK of the same level.

And the whole PC is based around a single schtick that is insanely specific (twin vs two targets), and so resource intensive to the extent that its only capable of doing it for one or two combats per adventuring day.

I'm not seeing it.

Yup. 2018 was a funny sort of year wasn't it? It was nice to have something to take my mind off things on non-D&D evenings. And, y'know... you're completely right. Thank you.




Re: RAVEN SOUL : thematically optimising Shadow Blade for insane damage
I fail to see how Eldritch Knight is better than other options without taking it to level 11. Twinning BB becomes more and more difficult, especially in higher levels when combat is 3 dimensional. Enemies will be spread out.

On the flip side an EK 11/Sorc 6+ can do the 4d8 shadow blade 3 times on the same target and quicken a BB for more single target damage than your level 20 build. And it's far more consistent, getting almost all that damage from the one shadow blade slot. Having a 3rd attack on the attack action prevents you from ever getting that one 7th level slot, but it is such a massive boost in at will damage that it shatters that extra 1d8 you can get for 1 minute a day at level 20.

A note on BB riders: in my experience they happen so rarely, as your team usually messes it up by doing idiot things like trying to contribute in melee. Your mileage may vary.

My biggest feedback is probably to focus on single target damage as foes at 1 hp still do full damage. In deadly encounters that can often mean life or death.

Noice! This works much better. Thank you!


Here's an example Shadar-Kai Fighter1/BladesingerX...

This build is awesome.

Skylivedk
2019-01-27, 12:47 PM
I absolutely loved the formatting and would like it to become our forum standard. Could you link a Google Doc with the code, so everybody else can mimic your fantastic approach easily?

That being said, there's a few points besides the comparisons to Bladesinger and Eldritch Knight builds to address:
A) the build is very, very dependent on thunder damage to shine
B) the math, especially the probability part, is more off than my phone when I'm sleeping with a hangover: crit percentages don't stack like that. The more accurate, still lazy way to do it, is to time the odds of not landing a crit together. So advantage gives you:
.95 X .95 = .9025 of not critting = 9.75 % of critting.

With Elven Accuracy:
.95 X .95 X .95=0.857375 or 14,2625 %

With hexblade's curse:
.9 X .9 = .81 or 19%
And with Elven Accuracy:
.9 X .9 X .9 = 0,729 or 27,1%

Not so critical in these cases, but if you use the same approach to multiple attacks, you'll find that there's no 150% crit chance. (Dice) Life doesn't come with certainties. Similar operations can be done to find the probability of multiple crits and a round.

I think the neat and proper way of doing it is with combinatorics... But, if you haven't guessed it, I'm a bit too hit by yesterday's adventures and liquid sinning to rack my brain to check if it makes a difference in this case.

Mjolnirbear
2019-01-27, 11:14 PM
Ok honestly this seems like the Sorcerer-King guy trying to sucker people into debate.

Skylivedk
2019-01-28, 03:08 AM
Ok honestly this seems like the Sorcerer-King guy trying to sucker people into debate.

That hardly seems like a fair comparison. No need for a specific item to break spell lists, etc. Why do you think so?

If it's the same poster, he's matured a lot in terms of feasibility of builds (no loophole required) and understanding of team dynamics (anti TPK rather than undead army builder). If it were, I'd applaud the development.

Mjolnirbear
2019-01-30, 10:39 AM
That hardly seems like a fair comparison. No need for a specific item to break spell lists, etc. Why do you think so?

If it's the same poster, he's matured a lot in terms of feasibility of builds (no loophole required) and understanding of team dynamics (anti TPK rather than undead army builder). If it were, I'd applaud the development.

I'm not certain, which is why I've not reported it.

There's a lot of effort to convince. He's got tables and subtitles and a wall of text. He overexplains and his theme is "OP build". He's written more than many class guides...theres just too much here. Coming from someone who is wordy and verbose, this post is like a math textbook. A heavy one.

But if I'm I'm mistaken OP, I apologize.

Willie the Duck
2019-01-30, 10:53 AM
Ok honestly this seems like the Sorcerer-King guy trying to sucker people into debate.

If a troll suckers people into engaging with them by behaving as a not-troll, are they still a troll, and did they instead perhaps sucker themselves into adult behavior?