Upcasting Sorcerer spells help: best and worst?

[Clone]

Hi all, I'm interested in playing a Sorcerer but worried about spells known.
Which spells, in all of your experiences, stay relevant from level 1 to level 10 to level 20?
Spells like Sleep are good early but should be swapped out around level 5 from what I've seen, but spells like Suggestion stay relevant through most levels.

The character will probably have Twinned Spell and Quickened Spell if that effects things.
I'd like suggestions based mostly on Buffing and some Damage options, but any and all insight if helpful!

[NecessaryWeevil]

Do you have a subclass in mind? That might affect our answers.

[Citan]

Hi!

Well, for spells that are still relevant up to ~level 10...
- Chromatic Orb: mainly because you start facing elemental resistant enemies so why it's definitely not the best slot/damage ratio around (especially as a single-target spell) it's still useful to keep for a while unless your campaign is predictible in terms of which kind of enemies you'll face.
- Slow: works wonder from when you get it to, actually past level 10. It doesn't scale though technically. ^^
- Blindness: a pretty decent spell, albeit targeting Constitution. As long as you manage to guess which enemies it's not worth trying upon and which enemies it's great for (like casters), it's a decent tool to keep for a while.
- Sleep: this spell is still vastly useful in some infiltration situations, in which guards are spreaded out, allowing you quick and painless take out of some guards. In fight, forget it.
- Enhance Ability: not only is the effect, in essence, totally great from level 3 to level 20, it scales too. Great way for example to help party stealth or quick climbing to give obvious examples.
- Fog Cloud: this 1st level spell tends to be forgotten, and to be honest you do have usually better options for higher levels... But if being crafty and controlling battlefield through vision is your thing, then you'll like that big scaling area of effect. :)
- Hold Person, Banishment, Hold Monster: all great spells that target additional creatures when upcast. :)

[Tanarii]

Upcasting Chromatic Orb and Chaos Bolt has some benefits for some builds. They're two of the relatively few Attack roll spells, and also no concentration.

First, they benefit from Spell Sniper, extra range and ignoring partial cover.

Theory crafting here, but also True Strike works with these spells. IMX not many players take that cantrip, but if you're the type that wants to make sure your high level spell slots land its one of the few combinations that makes the cantrip useful. You can even Quicken a non-cantrip spell in the same round you use True Strike as your cantrip spell, then follow with an upcast CO/CB spell the next round. (I might just try that build in AL some time to see if its feasible / useful in a real game environment.)

Lastly a Wild Mage can use Tides of Chaos to get advantage on the attack roll of these spells.

[ImproperJustice]

My Sorceror uses the following 1st level spells still at level 12:

Absorb Elements, Shield, and Feather Fall.

Otherwise, low level slots are best used to fuel meta magic and charging big slots IMHO.

[RogueJK]

Here's my list of 1st and 2nd level Sorcerer spells that are still very useful at Level 10+

1st:
Absorb Elements
Feather Fall
Fog Cloud
Shield

2nd:
Alter Self (especially if you're in a seafaring campaign and/or you didn't take Disguise Self)
Invisibility (yes, Greater Invisibility is better in some situations, but regular old 2nd Level Invisibility works just fine many of them, and saves you from having to use a 4th level slot for those)
Levitate
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Shadow Blade (mainly for multiclass DEX Gish builds, as most plain Sorcerers won't be wading into melee)
Suggestion

I'd like to especially highlight Levitate, which is a 2nd Level spell that tends to get overlooked. The vertical movement/exploration aspect gets outshined by Fly at next level, but people seem to forget that Levitate remains useful as an offensive spell. It can be cast on an enemy, to hoist them into the air and leave them hanging to be dealt with at your leisure, using ranged weapons. And unlike most enemy control spells, the enemy only gets one saving throw. Once they fail that one, they're at your mercy for up to 10 minutes, with no subsequent saving throws like most spells. That dual usage means that I consider it still to be useful, even after you get Fly.

[sambojin]

Enlarge/Reduce still holds up pretty well, even if it isn't upcastable.

Sleet Storm is surprisingly good for flyer proning, though not upcastable.

[Citan]

Here's my list of 1st and 2nd level Sorcerer spells that are still very useful at Level 10+

1st:
Absorb Elements
Feather Fall
Fog Cloud
Shield

2nd:
Alter Self (especially if you're in a seafaring campaign and/or you didn't take Disguise Self)
Invisibility (yes, Greater Invisibility is better in some situations, but regular old 2nd Level Invisibility works just fine many of them, and saves you from having to use a 4th level slot for those)
Levitate
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Shadow Blade (mainly for multiclass DEX Gish builds, as most plain Sorcerers won't be wading into melee)
Suggestion

I'd like to especially highlight Levitate, which is a 2nd Level spell that tends to get overlooked. The vertical movement/exploration aspect gets outshined by Fly at next level, but people seem to forget that Levitate remains useful as an offensive spell. It can be cast on an enemy, to hoist them into the air and leave them hanging to be dealt with at your leisure, using ranged weapons. And unlike most enemy control spells, the enemy only gets one saving throw. Once they fail that one, they're at your mercy for up to 10 minutes, with no subsequent saving throws like most spells. That dual usage means that I consider it still to be useful, even after you get Fly.
Oh, right, I totally forgot about Invisibility!

What you say is very true for "solo" use... But the other greatness of this spell is more targets per spell, meaning a Sorcerer can make a whole party of 4 people invisible for one hour. For stealth situations, you just cannot beat that ratio of slot/action/concentration economy. :)

And also Shadow Blade which scales neatly to stack on Booming Blade. On that point, most Sorcerer indeed would rely on other things, but a Stone Sorcerer (if UA) with great native AC and Draconic Sorcerer with equally good native AC and ultimately fly (with a Mobile feat on top of that) can wade into melee with little trouble.

I knew my list was far from being exhaustive but didn't expect to forget about those obvious ones. ^^

[Clone]

Thanks for all the replies, lots of food for thought.
My plan currently is to go Cold Draconic Sorcerer, potentially being allowed to change one or two spells to cold damage.
I was tempted to take spells like Ice Knife and Agnazzar's Scorcher (changes to cold), while having Shadow Blade as a backup for possible melee.
At third level Haste and either a Cold Melf's Minute Meteors, possibly Slow later on.

I'm a bit taken aback at the sorcerer's spells known and will be asking the DM if she'll allow additional spells known based on the theme, mainly 1 spell for each spell level up to 5.
Unsure if this will go through though.
Out of all the games I've played I've always played melee characters so spell selection was always far easier. This will be my first ranged spellcasting character, with Wizard and Warlock already picked by other party members. So the limited spell selection really stuns me.

I heard a lot about the uses for Fog Cloud but I don't fully understand it. Would anyone know a bit more?

[ImproperJustice]

The key to loving your Sorceror is to pick and stick to a type of theme and then grab meta-magics that support it.

I have run two different Sorcerors in a group with several other casters, and the class holds up just fine.
Sometimes I am jealous of their versatility. Often times they are envious of my various Meta-Magic Shenanigans (Eapecially Subtle, Empower, and Twin Spell)
The Sorceror ability to burn and recharge slots when needed stacks up favorably to the recovery abilities of Land Druids and Wizards.


My take away, is Sorceror often looks weak on paper but works great in practice.

[Beechgnome]

Thanks for all the replies, lots of food for thought.
My plan currently is to go Cold Draconic Sorcerer, potentially being allowed to change one or two spells to cold damage.
I was tempted to take spells like Ice Knife and Agnazzar's Scorcher (changes to cold), while having Shadow Blade as a backup for possible melee.
At third level Haste and either a Cold Melf's Minute Meteors, possibly Slow later on.

I'm a bit taken aback at the sorcerer's spells known and will be asking the DM if she'll allow additional spells known based on the theme, mainly 1 spell for each spell level up to 5.
Unsure if this will go through though.
Out of all the games I've played I've always played melee characters so spell selection was always far easier. This will be my first ranged spellcasting character, with Wizard and Warlock already picked by other party members. So the limited spell selection really stuns me.

I heard a lot about the uses for Fog Cloud but I don't fully understand it. Would anyone know a bit more?

There are a couple ways to sneak a few extra spells known: in Xanathar's both Divine Soul and Shadow sorcerers get an extra spell, and if you take magic initiate: sorcerer as a feat you can take something like shield and save your other spells known for higher level stuff.

For upcastable spells, blindness is still amazing at high levels because it is that rare control spell that both adds targets with each level AND is not concentration.

Other choices that age well include invisibility, Misty Step, pyrotechnics (like a burst short term blindness or a fog cloud without concentration, though doesn't scale), slow, erupting earth (good damage scaling) and sleet storm.

fog cloud is attractive as either a stealth aider or to cover a getaway or to render opposing archers/spellcasters ineffective, since so many creatures and spells rely on sight to be effective. As a bonus, it scales, getting bigger and bigger as you upcast it. Thematically it works for a cold magic caster. I just prefer pyrotechnics so my character can keep concentrating on something else.

[sophontteks]

Hi all, I'm interested in playing a Sorcerer but worried about spells known.
Which spells, in all of your experiences, stay relevant from level 1 to level 10 to level 20?
Spells like Sleep are good early but should be swapped out around level 5 from what I've seen, but spells like Suggestion stay relevant through most levels.

The character will probably have Twinned Spell and Quickened Spell if that effects things.
I'd like suggestions based mostly on Buffing and some Damage options, but any and all insight if helpful!

I'm a big fan of sorcerers, but they are very easy to screw up. I think in your case you are asking the wrong questions.

Lets look at your metamagics. Twinned is the most expensive metamagic in the game. Quickened is right behind it. These are not great starting choices because you just can't afford to use both of them together. You mentioned you want buffing options, so let's keep twinned and lose quickened. Take empowered instead. Its cheap, simple, and really effective when you need it.

Now, since twinned is so very very expensive, you'll only want to use it with a few select spells. The best twinned spells are:

Enlarge/Reduce- Your early buffing option. Enlarge both your frontliners. This is especially potent if one of your frontliners likes to grapple. With their size increase they can grapple dragons.
Haste- Haste is one of the best buffs in the game and thus one of the best twinned spells. You can even put the second haste on yourself, so you can avoid getting hit. Haste is high risk, high reward. You gotta make sure you don't lose concentration.
Polymorph- When your party is getting beat up use this instead of healing them. This is a massive HP swing in your team's favor.
Greater invisibility- Invisibility is a very strong effect. Constant advantage and the enemy likely won't even be able to target them.

Outside of these spells the value of twinned drops much lower. If you don't plan to use these spells I'd swap twinned out with something else.

For the rest. You need shield of course. Then just pick up a couple of the best damage spells you can. They don't have to be cold spells. You've probably already noticed that cold spells aren't the best damage spells and no matter how you cut it, its not worth limiting yourself to one element. I'd take fireball, for example, no matter the element chosen.

[Clone]

Awesome stuff guys. I've most of my utility spells picked but not I'm just wondering what damage spells from 1st to 3rd level.
Besides Scorching Ray what spells are good to take and hopefully keep?
I know Chromatic Orb is alright and can be twinned but having at least 1 solid damage spell for 1st or 2nd level would be great but I'm not sure which would be reliable.

Tempted to take Agnazzor's Scorcher but I heard its pretty bad, any other suggestions?
I have a Wizard and Warlock in the party so I won't be the main blaster, but having something in my back pocket would be fantastic

[Beechgnome]

Awesome stuff guys. I've most of my utility spells picked but not I'm just wondering what damage spells from 1st to 3rd level.
Besides Scorching Ray what spells are good to take and hopefully keep?
I know Chromatic Orb is alright and can be twinned but having at least 1 solid damage spell for 1st or 2nd level would be great but I'm not sure which would be reliable.

Tempted to take Agnazzor's Scorcher but I heard its pretty bad, any other suggestions?
I have a Wizard and Warlock in the party so I won't be the main blaster, but having something in my back pocket would be fantastic

I would avoid damage for 1st/2nd level spells and rely on your cantrips for that. If you are a silver/white cold draconic sorcerer Ray of Frost will do 2d8 + Cha bonus at 6th level (avg 13 w/ an 18 Cha) while not using a slot, while Ice knife won't do much more while burning a slot.

First/second level is where you'll want to find your twinned spells, since the cost is cheap, but there aren't many first level options: charm person, ray of sickness, chromatic orb, jump and witch bolt are about it.

So second level is where you'll want to spend your twin on buff/control spells like levitate, enlarge, phantasmal force, hold person, blindness, invisibility, earthbind etc.

[sophontteks]

First and second also hold your defensive and utility options. Agree that the damage spells are just not worth it.