Looking for advice and reviews on Drop Dead Studios "Artisan" class and Artificing

[Dracojai]

As the title says, I'm looking for some help from the brilliant minds here. My group just transferred over from 3.5 to pathfinder (mostly, it's a complicated mix and I can still use 3.5 stuff), but I have been playing a 3.5 artificer, and now have the option of switching to a PF artificer, PF artisan, or just staying 3.5 artificer. I do intend to go the crafting route, and probably stay in a single class the whole way. Thanks in advance.


EDIT: My group is allowing any published content from 3.5 or PF. Go nuts with suggestions.

[Mehangel]

I would also find out if your group is allowing Spheres of Might (also published by Drop Dead Studios), if so, you might be interested in looking at the Technician class.

[JerichoPenumbra]

I'd say part of what you're asking for is dependent on what style and flavor of artificer you want to/have been playing since the classes are all slightly different. Also which PF Artificer are you looking at? The one by Adamant Entertainment (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/artificer/) or the Ebberon to Pathfinder Conversion (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/classes/artificer)? All of these are different takes on the item-smith. Are you a "selfish" artificer; making mostly stuff for yourself akin to Iron Man? Or are you more of a "generous" one; being the party's dedicated discount item crafter?

More science-based than magic flavor-wise. Not particularly recommended. Class is a bit clunky in what it tries to do differently and most of what I've read from people here is that it's not particularly well made. I admit I've never played this version of the Artificer and most of the information I have is secondhand. That said, weird science, its hallmark feature looks like an annoying piece of bookkeeping.

Conversion to PF is fairly well done and also given capstone options like the other Pathfinder classes.

Roughly equal balance between magical and technical flavor options. This class learns a lot of crafting feats and thus will have a broad stretch of crafting options, but it actually causes one to specialize in making particular group of items due to it's class features. In my view, it's a fun and different take since it also functions as a class that makes you better at using magic items.

Option suggestion-wise: Could either do a Staff-Focused maker and be an analogue to Mystogan from Fairy Tail, or go for a Jewelry maker and take the extra rings feat from Ebberon so the by the time you reach 17th level you can wear 6 magic rings. Those are the only two suggestions I can think of off the top of my head.

On the topic of the Technician from Spheres of Might, it is more technologically focused in flavor than magic item crafting. It can still do it, but requires a bit more investment. But then again it is a class that would let you make a Steampunk gun-slinging samurai performing iaido with a fishing pole or a wrench.

[Dracojai]

Thank you for your responses, I made my choice. The Artisan by Drop Dead, after my DM allowed most of the temporary weapon enhancement things to work with each other (particularly mass, reaching, and extended (the time one). 9th level, giving all allies within 300ft a +2 temporary equivalent bonus to weapons that lasts 9 minutes sounds quite tasty. If anyone has any more tips on playing crafter types, please do help me out here. We are using the alternate crafting rules from pathfinder, party comp is a barbarian, a mesmerist, a savant (the cool storyteller one, not the bad newer one), a spellsage (player didn't want to convert the class from 3.5, DM ok'ed), a gunslinger, and I.

Character: A soldier/mechanic that worked with The Foundation (SCP land! (http://www.scp-wiki.net)). He is NG (mostly) and has experience with both tech and magic. He's Greek American, and served in the US army before he was teleported to an intelligent hub of worlds where he is currently attempting to figure out what's going on.

[JerichoPenumbra]

Pretty sure if you're 9th level the enhancement bonus would be +3. Typo? Anyway, if you want to be more of a focused crafter, I'd recommend checking out Familiar Archetypes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/) and the Valet in particular. The major reason is that archetype grants your homunculus familiar the Cooperative Crafting feat which lets it help you craft and doubles the gp amount you get done each day. In the magic item creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-item-creation/) rules, by increasing the craft DC by 5 you can do the equivalent of 8 hours of work in 4 hours. Up to your DM if you can do those 4 hour sessions twice a day to double up on progress again, but 4 hours of work getting 2000 gp per day done isn't that bad. As additional potential option if you are using the crafting while adventuring rules, there's the Portable Artificer's Lab (https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Artificer%27s%2 0lab%20(portable)). I do however admit, that crafting while adventuring increasing bookkeeping, so it isn't the most fun of options. If you haven't selected traits, I recommend Spark of Creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/spark-of-creation-magic/). If you're cool losing the human bonus skill points, you can go for the Heart of the Fields alternate racial ability to give yourself a a higher bonus to one craft skill, likely weapon-smithing based on what you mentioned. Also if you have any of the Skill Focus feats, then change the human bonus feat ability with Focused Study which for the cost of one flexible bonus feat, will give you three skill focus feats over 16 levels. If you really want skill points, there's the Cunning (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cunning/) feat. Given that your character is from a modern era and you have a gunslinger in the group picking up the Gunsmithing feat might be appropriate, for the sake of cheap ammo, or have the gunslinger work with you a lot to make masterwork bullets. Magic ammunition depending on the group isn't used that much since it's usually better to have a magic weapon that will last longer than 50 attacks, but if your DM allows crafting less than 50 per batch then you can create a small number of contingent ammo fairly quickly.

I once had a dedicated pathfinder crafter character myself, so I'm reasonably familiar with the options and what-not. An idea that I never really got a chance to try out was "potion-ammo". Effectively creating "potions" of offensive spells like shocking grasp or fireball. Instead of using the standard medium of liquid and the Brew Potion feat, it would be in the medium of ammunition and use Craft Magic Arms & Armor. It would otherwise still have the typical constraints of a potion (only spells up to 3rd level, require a standard action to use) but would have the added cost of requiring a successful attack roll, maybe even having to make a special gun to use them. If you ever watched it, think Gene's caster gun from Outlaw Star.

[unseenmage]

I highly recommend using PF's alternate crafting rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/alternate-crafting-rules/) for mundane crafting and Price by CR guidelines for Constructs.

It's mostly Construct related but my own journeys through PF crafting are largely chronicled in my extended sig. Of particular note is a thread or two toying with the custom weapon rules and tech crafting.

[Dracojai]

@Jericho: Yes, typo. What I get for not checking my numbers before I post. Also, yes, Valet looks quite amazing, and as I just hit 4th level, I'm gonna be getting one soon. I've picked up a traveler's anytool, so not terribly worried about labs, assuming I'm not misunderstanding that. I did grab the skill focus feat switch, and have maxed about 5 different craft skills at this point. My DM has handwaved away gunsmithing, but I should probably look into it anyway. I think my DM would be alright with crafting smaller batches of ammo, and the potion ammo seems really cool as an idea, and fairly cheap too. I've never seen Outlaw Star, but the gun sounds pretty dang cool. Great suggestions.

@Unseen: At the risk of sounding cliche and fangirl-y, AHHH UNSEEN! Yes, I've read through most of your extended sig, you are one of my main inspirations for this madness. I intend to make effectively reclamation golems (story may be changed because religion and this campaign setting don't mix well) and am considering for the lulz making bear-trap based weapons for the swordsage and/or barb. Your sacrifice of time and brainpower in doing all the math and tons of exploration makes my life so much easier. Thank you!

[unseenmage]

@Jericho: ...

@Unseen: At the risk of sounding cliche and fangirl-y, AHHH UNSEEN! Yes, I've read through most of your extended sig, you are one of my main inspirations for this madness. I intend to make effectively reclamation golems (story may be changed because religion and this campaign setting don't mix well) and am considering for the lulz making bear-trap based weapons for the swordsage and/or barb. Your sacrifice of time and brainpower in doing all the math and tons of exploration makes my life so much easier. Thank you!
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...
I am flattered. Thank you. :smallredface:

Am super glad my random experiments have benefitted someone.
And full disclosure, most of that math isnt mine.
Its largely the effort of a member if my IRL playgroup and his calculator-like brain. Though I normally only quote or credit him when he brings the math to me. When I'm pushing his mental calculator buttons via Q&A I generally just post the results.

As the Reclamation Robot from PF isnt divine I assume you meant to refer to my Amalgam version where I smooshed it together with a Latten Mechanism of Brigh from the Madness Such as This thread?
Them were good times. Our group actually burned ourselves out so badly on magitech that we've sworn off using it in actual games for the foreseeable future. :smallbiggrin:

You'll definitely have to tell us how the character goes and if you manage to break any new ground in the realms of mad artifice.

That said, I have yet to fully digest PF's Construct Builder's Guide. I believe the contents recently made their way to Archives of Nethys so that'd be a good place to look as well.

Also, for 3.P games with 3rd party allowed you can't do better for awakening your Constructs than a) just make PF Robot versions, Int comes built in; and b) the Sacred Guardian template (Bestiary of Krynn Revised) is just bonkers bang for your buck.
However, it is also a setting specific template that will require some adjustment as it is a divinely powered template that gives deity specific superpowers. For my part I'd just waive the divine superpowers and run it as is.

[Dracojai]

...
...
...
I am flattered. Thank you. :smallredface:

Am super glad my random experiments have benefitted someone.
And full disclosure, most of that math isnt mine.
Its largely the effort of a member if my IRL playgroup and his calculator-like brain. Though I normally only quote or credit him when he brings the math to me. When I'm pushing his mental calculator buttons via Q&A I generally just post the results.

As the Reclamation Robot from PF isnt divine I assume you meant to refer to my Amalgam version where I smooshed it together with a Latten Mechanism of Brigh from the Madness Such as This thread?
Them were good times. Our group actually burned ourselves out so badly on magitech that we've sworn off using it in actual games for the foreseeable future. :smallbiggrin:

You'll definitely have to tell us how the character goes and if you manage to break any new ground in the realms of mad artifice.

That said, I have yet to fully digest PF's Construct Builder's Guide. I believe the contents recently made their way to Archives of Nethys so that'd be a good place to look as well.

Also, for 3.P games with 3rd party allowed you can't do better for awakening your Constructs than a) just make PF Robot versions, Int comes built in; and b) the Sacred Guardian template (Bestiary of Krynn Revised) is just bonkers bang for your buck.
However, it is also a setting specific template that will require some adjustment as it is a divinely powered template that gives deity specific superpowers. For my part I'd just waive the divine superpowers and run it as is.

Well then, my thanks to your whole table for providing inspiration to my insanity. Magitech has been on my mind for a while now, and getting to actually play with some is gonna be tons of fun.

Yes, I was referring to the Amalgam, it seemed hilarious and crazy good. Building some robots that can then propagate themselves and basically starting a race? Sounds like fun high level shenanigans to me.

I do hope to keep the thread up to date on my progress, particularly if I have an audience of interested and vocal parties. Currently, my newest toy is a homebrewed item by my DM, a crystal that can store and convert energy. Note that this is currently nebulously defined, but what I know so far is the one I have currently charges from the sun and outputs the power as either electrical or kinetic energy. It has a fairly high, but not 100%, efficiency of conversion. I will gain access to more of these brilliant things throughout the game, but for now only have the one.

Ideas that I can't play with: ring gate launching things at the speed of light (ring gates aren't entirely off the table though), time manipulation things (if one is necessary for an idea, I have to be veryyyyyy careful and spin it as minor/not time things just speed things), taking over/destroying the world, killing gods (possibly open to negotiation, note that most of D&D's pantheons either don't exist or don't work the way they would normally, remember religion is different in this game)

The Construct Builder's Guidebook has some interesting things, particularly the automaton familiar looks pretty nice. Not sure how to interpret automaton cores though.

[unseenmage]

...

I do hope to keep the thread up to date on my progress, particularly if I have an audience of interested and vocal parties. Currently, my newest toy is a homebrewed item by my DM, a crystal that can store and convert energy. Note that this is currently nebulously defined, but what I know so far is the one I have currently charges from the sun and outputs the power as either electrical or kinetic energy. It has a fairly high, but not 100%, efficiency of conversion. I will gain access to more of these brilliant things throughout the game, but for now only have the one.

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Word of warning, the following ideas are cheese.

Is the energy conversion gem a mundane item or a magic item?

If mundane then Shrink Item could allow for more versatile use in tech.
Also if mundane you could get more by permanently Animate Objects-ing or Minor Servitor-ing it then abusing Simulacrum.

If it is instead a magic item you could make it an Intelligent magic item. This would allow it to a) use it's own superpowers as it sees fit and b) because Int Magic Items count as Constructs. again utilize Simulacrum to make more.

The Simulacrum bit is the cheese FYI.

[Dracojai]

I'll be honest here, I'm a bit confused on why the simalcrum bit is cheese. It's fairly pricey and to make myself able to cast it repeatedly is even more so. If the price of making them is more than the price of the crystals, wouldn't it just be more efficient to buy crystals in bulk? Am I missing some crazy superpower here?

[unseenmage]

I'll be honest here, I'm a bit confused on why the simalcrum bit is cheese. It's fairly pricey and to make myself able to cast it repeatedly is even more so. If the price of making them is more than the price of the crystals, wouldn't it just be more efficient to buy crystals in bulk? Am I missing some crazy superpower here?
It's because you're getting a GM fiat item and because of the potential for other Sim abuse mostly.

Sims can require a lot of GM adjudication which can burn them out on the spell. Add to that the potential of a 9th level spell in a much lower slot and the thing gets banned more often than not.

[Dracojai]

Ah. I see. That's crazy good. Wish factories, other nonsense. That's insanity. What is the quickest way to get them, just a scroll to start the process? Might the painting/alter ego be an easier way to start?

Speaking of the painting (trump l'eoil?), if I make one of myself and leave it behind to craft stuff, is that a worthwhile investment/use? Craft construct comes online pretty soon, wondering if I should save up for that.

[unseenmage]

Actually, PF's Lesser Simulacrum is about the earliest access to such an effect I can think of. Though it has it's own limitations. Due to its duration it's basically useless for crafting.
Good for existential nightmare fuel though. See, most Sims dont know they're Sims unless you tell them. (Am also pretty sure they are created naked as equipment isnt mentioned in the spell.)
So creating a sapient, breathing, person-analogue from nothing that only has a short time to live that also likely contains the lifetime of memories of the original...
Yeah, gets real sad real fast.


As for Trompe L'oeil and Alter Ego, beware as they are written in such a way that you might not be in command of the resultant creature.
Trompe L'oeil have text describing them as being more likely to ho rogue the better they're crafted IIRC.
Alter Ego are designed to troll their original and be generally insane.

Keep in mind that you could build clockwork versions of these constructs and hold their winding key hostage. I do not recommend that, just that it's an option.

[Dracojai]

Lesser Sim really does have seemingly horrifying moral repercussions, how awkward...

Regarding TL's, reading the flavor text suggests to me that only particularly lifelike paintings that were not intended to be TL's have a chance of animating and attempting to kill the portrayed entity. I imagine it'll be a ask the DM sorta situation. Alter Egos are definitely crossed off for the moment though, because of that whole insane attempting to cause trouble for victim thing.

My group normally games Friday nights, so next real update of any magnitude besides ideas for things is likely to be late Friday night/Saturday morning MST.

Speaking of ideas, another homebrewed item by GM, the Merlin Faraday Box/Cage (the MF box for short), works like a normal Faraday cage, but also for magic. As I type this, I have entertaining ideas for making animated objects from them or armor of various types from it, but I'm fishing for other ideas. Few notes about them so far: no inter-dimensional magic to/from them (so no MF box of holding), magic things can go inside so long as they aren't connecting outside somewhere, and they are entirely still mortal (used loosely) objects that can be destroyed. The other idea I had was shrinking objects to go in the boxes. The lore reason behind these is the world we're in has a personality and that personality is basically chaos. It's held in check by the creator, a person that we probably won't run into in the course of the game. Even with the world held in check by them, it still lashes out with randomness, creating portals, abducting beings from other worlds, and doing (usually horrible) things to time itself. The MF boxes (and contents) are immune to the random BS caused by the world. The previously mentioned crystals are also, if I recall correctly, immune to the random BS. Animals native to this world are sensitive to disruptions, and if you have one, or part of one (flying jackalope horns are a thing I have), they can act as warning systems to the prepared.

Overall, I'm not a huge fan of worlds with license to screw with you, but I'm giving this one a shot as it's run by a friend. Any suggestions on dealing with that type of world would be greatly appreciated.

[unseenmage]

You definitely need to know if these homebrew items are enchant able or not in order to proceed.

Especially for the potential to make them into Intelligent Magic Items so they can turn themselves and their components on and off at will.


Do you have access to Quintessence? I'm picturing little beads of quintessence stopping time for individual points on the wires on the faraday cage even as they stop time for as much energy as that wire can hold.

[Dracojai]

I imagine at least the crystals are, so long as they don't somehow eat "magic energy", but I'll definitely be asking, as for the MF boxes (I still chuckle at that :smallbiggrin:) I am less sure. Tonight will be the game, we'll see how and where it goes. I know we're heading towards a swamp to hunt... something. Not sure what, and don't have much money to prep waterbreathing, but hopefully the DM will be merciful and not make us use drowning rules.

[Dracojai]

UPDATE: (sorry for double post but MAJOR SHENANIGANS HAVE OCCURRED) So, I've been allowed to make a swarm of 50 microbots (like from Big Hero 6) for 25 gp, which is crazy, but long story short I have a swarm of 5000 MF bots (speaking of which, ruling is MF can be enchanted, so long as magic doesn't change sides. Need stats/ideas for the diminutive swarm of animated objects. Ideally they can either craft themselves (literally :smallbiggrin:) or help boost my craft checks. I currently have 100 swarms (5000 bots). It's crazy and stupid and I love it. Advice is always appreciated.

[unseenmage]

"The Aundairian Job" (Dungeon #147) has a CR5 swarm of animated tools.

[Dracojai]

Well, dang. Now that I've reread as many rules as I could find about swarms, constructs, and construct swarms, things are no longer nearly so broken. This is probably for the best though. I have only 3.33 swarms overall and they deal a d6 and nauseate, much like a normal swarm, etc etc etc. On the bright side, I can still use all the intended utility things. Mostly okay with this, as it really was quite crazy powerful before that nerf. Thanks for the link to those tools, but they didn't seem to actually benefit craft at all, unless I missed something.

[unseenmage]

Nope, just an example of animated object tools whose fluff largely fit with what you had.

[Dracojai]

So, in a disappointing turn of events, tonight's game has been canceled. On the bright side, this gives me more time to plan, and I realize construct crafting, while stupid and funny, maybe shouldn't be my largest concern, because craft magic arms and armor comes online next level, and I'm already planning magical ammo, and maybe the spell gun as suggested, certainly a decanter of endless water cutting, and unfortunately may be commissioned to make a magical battle shovel... Which is regrettable to say the least. Anywho, despite the barbarian's questionable weapon choices, I'm feeling pretty good about things.

Rules question: (exposition) I was reading through Zaq's fantastic truenaming guide the other day, and he highly recommended universal aptitude (an utterance, truenames spell-likes) which would be very nice for me to have, but I don't know how I'd copy that effect without just using the basic skill bonus thing. So the actual question, is there a way to copy that on an item without a) needing me to make a truename check (ew) or b) having to pay crazy prices for adding that many bonuses?