Resilient con on a Paladin?

[nickl_2000]

Is Resilient constitution worth it on a pure ancients Paladin at level 4?

For context in my case he has 13 con, 18 str, and 19 charisma and took a charisma based half feat at level 1. I'm playing him with a support style, so less of a blaster with smite.

The reason I ask is because he would already be immune to disease, can cure poison with lay on of hands, and will get the aura at level 6. Is the bonus to con worthwhile in actual play?

[Snowbluff]

You know I was going to say "yes take it having more saves is good," but between the aura, and the immunity, I almost wanna say it's better to get the Dex save one, since that's gonna lead to a lot more survival.

Definitely do something to even out that con stat, however.

[Arkhios]

Is Resilient constitution worth it on a pure ancients Paladin at level 4?

For context in my case he has 13 con, 18 str, and 19 charisma and took a charisma based half feat at level 1. I'm playing him with a support style, so less of a blaster with smite.

The reason I ask is because he would already be immune to disease, can cure poison with lay on of hands, and will get the aura at level 6. Is the bonus to con worthwhile in actual play?

Paladin's spells include a plethora of spells that require concentration so I'd say "definitely yes". I'm aware that Aura of Protection adds your charisma to all saving throws, but personally, I'd rather be sure than leave it at only a slightly better chance.

[djreynolds]

Probably not, war caster might be better, especially if you multiclass with sorcerer or warlock and use a shield/sword combo.

Then again, it's really nice not having to worry about constitution saves, a ghouls paralysis being one of them.

[PeteNutButter]

It can be, but in your situation, definitely not. You have two odd stats among your core 3 stats. There is no better time to place one and one.

Bring that con to 14, cha to 20, and profit

[nickl_2000]

Level 4 would either be Resilient con or +1 con and +1 charisma to even those out. I didn't know if on practice it really mattered that much with a +5 from an aura.

He is sword and board style.

I don't expect him to multiclass until after level 7 at a minimum and possibly not even then. Also, he doesn't really have the personality to make a warlock pact, so that is out from an RP perspective right now, although that is a super long way away and he will grow a lot between then and now.




It can be, but in your situation, definitely not. You have two odd stats among your core 3 stats. There is no better time to place one and one.

Bring that con to 14, cha to 20, and profit

Given the odd stats I would consider either a half feat at level 8 for charisma or +1 cha and +1 str at 8 and heavy armor mastery at level 12. That is so far away it's murky to even think about. The character is expected to get to 20 in the end though

[DeTess]

Level 4 would either be Resilient con or +1 con and +1 charisma to even those out. I didn't know if on practice it really mattered that much with a +5 from an aura.

He is sword and board style.

I don't expect him to multiclass until after level 7 at a minimum and possibly not even then. Also, he doesn't really have the personality to make a warlock pact, so that is out from an RP perspective right now, although that is a super long way away and he will grow a lot between then and now.

In that case, I'd go for the +1/+1, and consider picking up warcaster at a later point, as that'll give you more mileage than resilient: con as it both helps with saves and casting while wearing your sword and shield. This'll be especially useful if you pick up a a bit of sorcerer later.

[Asmotherion]

Proficiency with Con saves are never a bad choice per say. But especially with a Paladin you have the luxury of not going that direction because of your aura and opt for some other feat.

[PeteNutButter]

Given the odd stats I would consider either a half feat at level 8 for charisma or +1 cha and +1 str at 8 and heavy armor mastery at level 12. That is so far away it's murky to even think about. The character is expected to get to 20 in the end though

In short, it pays to be impatient in D&D. Get your stats even as quickly as possible is my advice. Half feats are great when you have one odd, stat, but with two odd stats its just kicking the problem down the road. I've seen many a character build idea never realized because they relied of features that were too high level. In my experience, even most campaigns that claim to reach for level 20, don't make it.

With a 14 con and 20 cha, you'd succeed on most concentration saves 90% of the time. If your DM uses magic items, it's not too difficult to come across a ring or cloak of protection to make that 95% or 100% with both. Since you're not a vengeance paladin (no haste), losing concentration that 5-10% of the time won't even be that devastating. Almost every spell you'd be using is either a bonus action or bless. Bless gives you a 98.75% chance of holding concentration on anything below 22 damage. The others are easy enough to recast.

All that is ignoring the immense upside of having a 20 cha. Just giving yourself +5 to all saves is huge, but you can potentially give that to the entire team. Think about it as +3-5 to an individual important save, or +1 to all your saves, and all your teammates saves. Should you decide to multiclass, most likely into a cha caster, that 20 cha will continue to pay dividends.

[Mitsu]

Generally yes if you are not multiclassing to caster (because then War Caster is better). However you have two odd stats, I think ASI +1 and +1 would be better at start in my opinion.

What's more is that: if you already have +5 from Aura and +2 from con that is +7 to CONC save. Now up to level 8 I don't think you need RES (CON) that much with maxed CHA. To fail DC 10 you will have to roll 1 or 2.

Not that it's bad to have RES (CON) and have guarantee DC saves all the time. If you want to play support you should definitely consider taking feat to boost your CONC saves on level 8.

Also since your CON will be even by then (if you took + 1 + 1 at first), I would actually consider War Caster if you feel like you have problems with your CONC saves because otherwise RES (CON) +1 goes to waste. But both will be good for support like Paladin.

General rule is:

1. Pure Paladin - RES (CON) to even CON and help maintaing buffs
2. Multi to caster - War Caster and you start with even CON.

But in your case it's better to take +1 and +1 first.

Eh, that is why I hate stat rolls and only play on Point Buy.

[Urukubarr]

just remember that resilient feats are better taken a wee bit later, as its proficiency bonus and that gets better later.

but yeah if your looking to even a stat out any, go for it, having better saves is never bad, especially as you level because saves don't scale as good as DC's do.

[nickl_2000]

It would be an immense surprise if we didn't get to twenty. We are playing dragon heist and the mad make with a group that has played together for over three years and have finished 4 campaigns while I've been there.

So, would it be better to do 18 cha and 14 con at level 1 with the varient human stat boosts? Then leave me more choices at level 4 for what to do?

[Erys]

Res: con is always great for a paladin. I tend to take it early since I always have some sort of concentration buff on that I don't want to lose.


It would be an immense surprise if we didn't get to twenty. We are playing dragon heist and the mad make with a group that has played together for over three years and have finished 4 campaigns while I've been there.

So, would it be better to do 18 cha and 14 con at level 1 with the varient human stat boosts? Then leave me more choices at level 4 for what to do?

Variant human starting with Res: Con and 18 Cha is gold, imho.

[nickl_2000]

Res: con is always great for a paladin. I tend to take it early since I always have some sort of concentration buff on that I don't want to lose.



Variant human starting with Res: Con and 18 Cha is gold, imho.

Not an option. I'm taking a slightly nerfed version of diplomat for story, rp, and coolness options. Thanks for the thought though.

[Erys]

Not an option. I'm taking a slightly nerfed version of diplomat for story, rp, and coolness options. Thanks for the thought though.

If you plan to take Res: Con later, be sure you leave that Con score odd then.

[Chronos]

Paladins do have a lot of concentration spells... but most of them, you just have to concentrate on long enough to land your next attack. It's very rare that you'll get a smite spell disrupted.

Resilient: Con is never a bad thing, but it's competing against a lot of other good things. That ASI could also be getting your Str to 20, or your Cha to 20 and Con to 14, or a combat feat like Sentinel, Shield Master, one of the Armor Masteries, or Polearm Master, or a support feat like Inspiring Leader, or something fun like Magic Initiate or Lucky. Personally, I don't think I'd ever end up finding room for Resilient on a paladin, even with those great starting stats.

In your shoes, I'd probably spend my next three ASIs on Con/Cha, Inspiring Leader, and Str, in that order.

[Blood of Gaea]

Resilient (Con):

You gain +2 to Con saves. Over time this will increase to +6.


+1 Cha +1 Con:

Once you get to 6th level, you and your friends within 10ft gain +1 to all saves. Eventually, this will increase to 30ft.
Your Charisma based skilled increase by +1.
Your spells that use Charisma increase by +1.



Both:

You gain +1 to Con saves.
You gain +1 HP per character level.


Personally, I think +1 Cha +1 Con has more value for you and your party overall.

[Erys]

Paladins do have a lot of concentration spells... but most of them, you just have to concentrate on long enough to land your next attack. It's very rare that you'll get a smite spell disrupted.


To each their own, but I personally think if you are spending your concentration on smite spells you are not maximizing a paladins potential.

Paladins have a great array of self buff spells, nearly one for every occasion in fact (especially at higher level); those are way more useful than a few extra d6's over what you can accomplish through burning spell slots. In my humble opinion, of course.

[Mitsu]

To each their own, but I personally think if you are spending your concentration on smite spells you are not maximizing a paladins potential.

Paladins have a great array of self buff spells, nearly one for every occasion in fact (especially at higher level); those are way more useful than a few extra d6's over what you can accomplish through burning spell slots. In my humble opinion, of course.

That's d8's for Smites.

But I agree with one thing: 1st level slots are for me the "usage" slots. Here is when I get my Shield of Faith (+2 AC), my Divine Favour (+1k4 dmg), my Bless (1k4 hit and 1k4 saves).

But slots lvl 2 and more are my Smites, unless you really need a particular spell (like Banishment or Haste etc).

[Blood of Gaea]

To each their own, but I personally think if you are spending your concentration on smite spells you are not maximizing a paladins potential.

Paladins have a great array of self buff spells, nearly one for every occasion in fact (especially at higher level); those are way more useful than a few extra d6's over what you can accomplish through burning spell slots. In my humble opinion, of course.
There are some exception to this rules, for example: a Conquest Paladin using Wrathful Smite to trap an enemy with their Aura of Conquest can be very effective.

[Corran]

Is Resilient constitution worth it on a pure ancients Paladin at level 4?

For context in my case he has 13 con, 18 str, and 19 charisma and took a charisma based half feat at level 1. I'm playing him with a support style, so less of a blaster with smite.

The reason I ask is because he would already be immune to disease, can cure poison with lay on of hands, and will get the aura at level 6. Is the bonus to con worthwhile in actual play?
Ultimately, I think it's worth it. Unless perhaps you are multiclassing into caster and you are S&B, in which case I would take warcaster and I would do away with resilient with a heavy heart (because bumping your con saves from +7 to sth like +13 is great at high levels). Assuming no multiclassing, at level 4? Probably not. Though it depends really. Up to level 4, you have very few spells slots (only 3), and your best concentration spells have not yet hit their full potential. Meaning, that both bless and wrathful smite, become a lot more useful come level 5. That's because at level 5 the dpr of the to-be-blessed allies goes up significantly, and because you get extra attack so wrathful smite has better chance now to stick against the enemy from round 1. So, picking up resilient con at level 4, means that at level 5 (which is when your slots increase significantly, also when using two of your best concentration spells becomes a lot more profitable) you will have a lot more options spellcasting wise. Then again, at level 6, you gain aura of protection, which will anyway boost your concentration checks. So if my plan is to use bless a lot, I would not take resilient at level 4. Level 5 might be only a little painful (assuming you have good dpr's in your party), but I would wait it out patiently, knowing that from level 6 I will be able to have bless up and running.

It all depends though on your party, because that's the best indicator on how it would be optimal to play, and knowing how your character will behave in combat is what makes decision making about character building a lot easier.

[Erys]

That's d8's for Smites.

But I agree with one thing: 1st level slots are for me the "usage" slots. Here is when I get my Shield of Faith (+2 AC), my Divine Favour (+1k4 dmg), my Bless (1k4 hit and 1k4 saves).

But slots lvl 2 and more are my Smites, unless you really need a particular spell (like Banishment or Haste etc).

Just to clarify: spell smites like Branding Smite and Destructive Wave use d6's; burning spell slot smites are d8's.

But past that we agree on the meat of the issue. Self buffing is generally the better use for a paladins concentration than using the Smite Spells.


There are some exception to this rules, for example: a Conquest Paladin using Wrathful Smite to trap an enemy with their Aura of Conquest can be very effective.

There are always exceptions to the general rule.

That is a snazzy combo.)

[Chronos]

I think my group usually sees fewer combats per day than normal, and that might be biasing my perceptions: A paladin can pull a very impressive nova, a couple of times per day, by stacking smite spells on top of Divine Smite. But yes, if you're seeing a lot of small combats over the course of a day, then longer-duration buffs start looking attractive.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think my group usually sees fewer combats per day than normal, and that might be biasing my perceptions: A paladin can pull a very impressive nova, a couple of times per day, by stacking smite spells on top of Divine Smite. But yes, if you're seeing a lot of small combats over the course of a day, then longer-duration buffs start looking attractive.
There's also a consideration for your party. Casting Bless can be a massive boon to say, a Sharpshooter or GWM Fighter, all while also buffing yourself and the Rogue.

The same can be said for some of your higher level buffs, like Holy Weapon, which will be more effective on someone like a Ranger, Fighter, or PAM Barbarian who has more attacks per round than you.

[Sception]

in general, resilient con is worth it on a paladin, though it usually isn't taken at level 4 - stat advancement in strength, and maybe cha as well, usually has higher priority. And PAM or GWM if either of those are relevant to the build, with resilient con not really elbowing its way in until 12 or even 16, which just so happens to be around the time that your proficiency bonus has risen high enough that resilient becomes significantly more effective than other methods of shoring up your con mod.

For op in particular though, 13 con is a bit on the low side for a melee character. I personally might be inclined to up the priority on resilient just to even the con mod out to a more comfortable +2.


I wouldn't take warcaster if you plan to stick with paladin. Paladin has no cantrips to use with the opportunity attack business, and while they have a couple spells that run afowl of handedness issues, it's mostly stuff like bless that can be cast at the start of combat before drawing your weapon. This changes significantly if you multiclass with warlock or sorcerer, both of which grant access to the booming blade cantrip, which is a fantastic opp attack, and good reactive spells like Shield that you'd need warcaster to cast if you're fighting with sword and board, which is generally the style I'd recommend for a more support-oriented paladin. Even then, though, resilient might still be worth it to shore up that con score. I personally find melee characters to be just... uncomfortable with anything less than a +2 con modifier, and that only gets more painful if you multiclass into something with smaller hit dice.

[odigity]

Resilient (Con) is my favorite feat in 5e.