Sniffing out a character who's masquerading as something he's not. Help?

[Crichton]

Say there's a character (PC or NPC, doesn't matter) who's a Changeling Spellthief(possibly multiclassed, haven't decided), but is attempting to pass himself off as a Tiefling Bard. He looks like a Tiefling, and he tries to behave like a Bard. No one involved has ever seen him change form or met him before he appeared looking like a Tiefling.

What ways would a party of PCs have, ingame, to uncover the truth, either about his race, or about his class?

Best I can figure is a character might know that Tieflings are supposed to have darkvision, and darkness, as abilities, and as a changeling he doesn't...
He won't be showing evidence of bardic abilities like the various inspire powers and such, but is a lack of evidence enough to raise suspicions? Maybe he's just a bad bard? Not sure.

Party is currently level 5. There's an StP Erudite, a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Paladin in the rest of the party.

I know Races of Eberron has the spell Discern Shapechanger that would do it, and True Seeing would reveal it, but A)no one has access to those spells for at least 2 more levels and B) unless they turned the spell's abilities on the Changeling by accident, why would they cast them on him?


In what ways would his in-fiction behavior or abilities hint at or outright reveal that his race and/or class aren't what he's claimed?

[BowStreetRunner]

Considering most abilities can be put on items, if the changeling doesn't want anyone to suspect the real source of an innate ability, he just have to have items that could plausibly be the source of the ability. The spell Magic Aura would even help reduce the chance that the item was sniffed out as a fake.

[Crichton]

Considering most abilities can be put on items, if the changeling doesn't want anyone to suspect the real source of an innate ability, he just have to have items that could plausibly be the source of the ability. The spell Magic Aura would even help reduce the chance that the item was sniffed out as a fake.

That's true, but in attempting to pass as a bard, can you make magic items of Inspire Courage or the other various Bardic Music effects?

[Deophaun]

I like picking up a set of tiny +1 fiercebane sling stones set to shapechangers, undead, dragons, and aberrations and make a bracelet out of them. That would accidentally show him up.

[ericgrau]

If no one knows the changeling before meeting him as a tiefling and no one's looking for him, I don't think you can. Even various tieflings have different personalities from each other, and some aren't as fiendish as others. Even a spot check is arguably useless if you have nothing to compare the appearance to. The disguise skill says: "If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks." Guards on watch do normally make spot checks against disguises, but how are they supposed to know what a real tiefling looks like? If a guard or other person watching for intruders or other suspicious people had seen multiple tieflings first hand then I would allow a spot check, remembering the changeling's +10 bonus to disguise. Likewise a PC passing a high knowledge check or who had witnessed many tieflings first hand should be given a spot check, but only after he has a reason to be suspicious. At bare minimum looking around for an imposter in general and scanning his eyes past the changeling. Or on watch against spies in general, whatever.

Yes there are the tiefling special abilities: darkvision, energy resistances and darkness 1/day. A knowledge check plus noticing that the "tiefling" won't rush into a burning building would be a hint. But usually none of these would come up. I wouldn't give anything away without at least a DC 11 knowledge check, and even that only gives one piece of info. Beating the DC by 5+ yields more info, +1 piece per 5.

The other players might meta that he doesn't have LA, and ask why you'd take bard with a cha penalty. Even without meta, NPCs might note that there aren't a lot of tiefling bards because they aren't very charismatic.

Someone or something from the changeling's history might pop up in the game too and give something away.

I think in the end it will be (1) having seen many tieflings or having crazy high book knowledge of their appearance (2) Getting a reason to take a good look at the changeling (whether a hint about his special abilities or simply because he's attacking/following you), and (3) passing a high spot check. Even then without true seeing you would only figure out that he's not really a tiefling, but something else pretending.

[Crichton]

I like picking up a set of tiny +1 fiercebane sling stones set to shapechangers, undead, dragons, and aberrations and make a bracelet out of them. That would accidentally show him up.


That'd for sure do it, but since there are psionics in play, we've already disallowed the cheese of using enhancements on ammunition to get them cheaper (disallowing the Manifester arrow trick).



If no one knows the changeling before meeting him as a tiefling and no one's looking for him, I don't think you can. Even various tieflings have different personalities from each other, and some aren't as fiendish as others. Even a spot check is arguably useless if you have nothing to compare the appearance to. The disguise skill says: "If you don’t draw any attention to yourself, others do not get to make Spot checks." Guards on watch do normally make spot checks against disguises, but how are they supposed to know what a real tiefling looks like? If a guard or other person watching for intruders or other suspicious people had seen multiple tieflings first hand then I would allow a spot check, remembering the changeling's +10 bonus to disguise. Likewise a PC passing a high knowledge check or who had witnessed many tieflings first hand should be given a spot check, but only after he has a reason to be suspicious. At bare minimum looking around for an imposter in general and scanning his eyes past the changeling. Or on watch against spies in general, whatever.

Yes there are the tiefling special abilities: darkvision, energy resistances and darkness 1/day. A knowledge check plus noticing that the "tiefling" won't rush into a burning building would be a hint. But usually none of these would come up. I wouldn't give anything away without at least a DC 11 knowledge check, and even that only gives one piece of info. Beating the DC by 5+ yields more info, +1 piece per 5.

The other players might meta that he doesn't have LA, and ask why you'd take bard with a cha penalty. Even without meta, NPCs might note that there aren't a lot of tiefling bards because they aren't very charismatic.

Someone or something from the changeling's history might pop up in the game too and give something away.

I think in the end it will be (1) having seen many tieflings or having crazy high book knowledge of their appearance (2) Getting a reason to take a good look at the changeling (whether a hint about his special abilities or simply because he's attacking/following you), and (3) passing a high spot check. Even then without true seeing you would only figure out that he's not really a tiefling, but something else pretending.


That all makes sense for the changeling/tiefling side. What about deducing that he's not in any way an actual bard?

(tangent: totally threw me when you mentioned energy resistances. Those only come from FRCS tieflings, not from Races of Destiny tieflings, which was published later, in addition to FRCS being setting specific)

[Crake]

In terms of identifying that he's a changeling, scouts headbands are relatively cheap items that give true seeing for a minute 1/day if you use all the daily charges on it. 3,400gp, pretty much one of my go-to items along with anklets of translocation.

In terms of identifying him as "not a bard", well, if you're looking at it like that, it's a very meta-gamy position. If he's got ranks in perform, and enjoys performing for people, and makes them happy with his performances, is he any less a bard than the expert who does the same? The bard class is a metagame construct, an in character bard is "a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition." You don't have to be the bard class to be a "bard". Just like you don't have to be the paladin class to be a "paladin".

[Torpin]

In what ways would his in-fiction behavior or abilities hint at or outright reveal that his race and/or class aren't what he's claimed?
sense motive could give them a hint that something is amiss. if the character is evil which most tieflings are the paladin would see his detect evil aura as faint rather than strong for being an outsider. it wouldn't get impeded by a magic circle spell.

[Sm3gl]

If he's changed himself into a tiefling then perhaps he made himself look like a specific tiefling either accidentally or on purpose (he might not have seen many others or think one in particular is attractive). In this case perhaps someone would recognise him or you could run into his double.

[Jowgen]

The hardest thing to block, to my knowledge, is the Keen Eared Scout feat. It's a bit of a pain to qualify for, but once someone has it and they hear someone talk a mere DC 20 Listen check (hard to fail with the prerequesties given) tells them their type and subtypes.

Other than being perpetually Silenced, there is no way to block this afaik, beyond maybe some very carefully worded Wish shenanigans.


As for maintaining the ruse against the party, the Cloak of Khyber spell (Stormreach) is the only way to True Seeing proof a magical disguise afaik.

[ericgrau]

That all makes sense for the changeling/tiefling side. What about deducing that he's not in any way an actual bard?

Oh geeze, I missed that part. Not having certain class features seems quite a bit harder to fake. Picking bard spells that are also on the sor/wiz list helps, but certain spells the bard gets early and you're missing inspire courage. Perform isn't a class skill either. Plus there's the spellthief sneak attack damage and spell stealing. It will give more reason to suspect.

The other thing is, why does faking his class matter? Classes are just a construct anyway. Is he supposed to be an entertainer, or what? So that others don't know he can steal spells until the right moment? Whatever he does use or never seems to use (because he can't) will start to give clues.

[Sian]

To a certain extent I'd secretly roll opposed skillchecks between the observers Sense Motive+Spot Modifier and the Changelings Disguise+Bluff Modifier ... with the observer getting an odd feeling that something is off.

[Crichton]

In terms of identifying that he's a changeling, scouts headbands are relatively cheap items that give true seeing for a minute 1/day if you use all the daily charges on it. 3,400gp, pretty much one of my go-to items along with anklets of translocation.

In terms of identifying him as "not a bard", well, if you're looking at it like that, it's a very meta-gamy position. If he's got ranks in perform, and enjoys performing for people, and makes them happy with his performances, is he any less a bard than the expert who does the same? The bard class is a metagame construct, an in character bard is "a poet, traditionally one reciting epics and associated with a particular oral tradition." You don't have to be the bard class to be a "bard". Just like you don't have to be the paladin class to be a "paladin".

It's meta-gamy to an extent, but I was more thinking that he doesn't have the bard's class abilities that have mechanical in-game effects (ie Inspire Courage). Would characters realize those things are missing, just because he isn't using them?


Oh geeze, I missed that part. Not having certain class features seems quite a bit harder to fake. Picking bard spells that are also on the sor/wiz list helps, but certain spells the bard gets early and you're missing inspire courage. Perform isn't a class skill either. Plus there's the spellthief sneak attack damage and spell stealing. It will give more reason to suspect.

The other thing is, why does faking his class matter? Classes are just a construct anyway. Is he supposed to be an entertainer, or what? So that others don't know he can steal spells until the right moment? Whatever he does use or never seems to use (because he can't) will start to give clues.


Let's say one level dip into Rogue, to explain the SA damage. Directly witnessing spell-stealing could be explained away, if it's a spell bard's also get. It's looking like we're stuck with just the lack of the Bardic Music abilities, and I'm not sure a lack of him using those abilities is enough for a character in-fiction to get all that suspicious, is it?


I honestly don't know why he's playing a changeling rogue/spellthief and then trying to pass himself off as a tiefling bard. I'm just trying to have my bases covered so I know what to do and what's reasonable, in-game, if players and their characters start to get suspicious.

[Crake]

It's meta-gamy to an extent, but I was more thinking that he doesn't have the bard's class abilities that have mechanical in-game effects (ie Inspire Courage). Would characters realize those things are missing, just because he isn't using them?

Did he ever actually claim to have those abilities? Or did he say "Hi, I'm Ashley the wandering tiefling bard, would you like to hear a song?"

Only a handful of in game "bards" actually have inspire courage, and even then not every bard will inspire courage the same way, whilst some may completely change the ability into something else (for example dragonfire inspiration). Inspire courage could also vastly change from bard to bard, one may inspire imagery of heroic deeds and desire for glory in others, while the next may instill a seething hatred for the enemy, while another still might be just straight up fluffed as a tactician ordering his troops via oration.

Can you see why it's starting to become problematic to say "Oi, you can't use inspire courage, you're not a real bard!" to which you say "I do all the things a bard can do, I just can't do the things the metagame construct of a bard class can do". In other words, being unable to inspire courage doesn't actually make him any less of a bard, it just means he's not a member of the bard class.

[Crichton]

Did he ever actually claim to have those abilities? Or did he say "Hi, I'm Ashley the wandering tiefling bard, would you like to hear a song?"

Only a handful of in game "bards" actually have inspire courage, and even then not every bard will inspire courage the same way, whilst some may completely change the ability into something else (for example dragonfire inspiration). Inspire courage could also vastly change from bard to bard, one may inspire imagery of heroic deeds and desire for glory in others, while the next may instill a seething hatred for the enemy, while another still might be just straight up fluffed as a tactician ordering his troops via oration.

Can you see why it's starting to become problematic to say "Oi, you can't use inspire courage, you're not a real bard!" to which you say "I do all the things a bard can do, I just can't do the things the metagame construct of a bard class can do". In other words, being unable to inspire courage doesn't actually make him any less of a bard, it just means he's not a member of the bard class.

You make a very good point.

[liquidformat]

You make a very good point.

To my knowledge, none of the knowledge skills talk about identifying classes, much less identifying classes based on the abilities of said class. The closest would be using spellcraft and knowledge checks to identify a spell's school and whether it is arcane or divine, they don't even tell you what classes could cast them. Going into that territory like said above is very meta, especially with alternate class abilities like divine bard, feats allowing you to cast arcane spells as divine spells and so on.

A similar example would be quite often npcs identified as 'assassins' don't have the assassin prc in their build, does that not make them any more of an assassin? No. The character not having an ability that the standard bard usually has shouldn't even raise an out of character flag since there are so many acfs out there to replace every part of bardic music and knowledge.

[Crichton]

To my knowledge, none of the knowledge skills talk about identifying classes, much less identifying classes based on the abilities of said class. The closest would be using spellcraft and knowledge checks to identify a spell's school and whether it is arcane or divine, they don't even tell you what classes could cast them. Going into that territory like said above is very meta, especially with alternate class abilities like divine bard, feats allowing you to cast arcane spells as divine spells and so on.

A similar example would be quite often npcs identified as 'assassins' don't have the assassin prc in their build, does that not make them any more of an assassin? No. The character not having an ability that the standard bard usually has shouldn't even raise an out of character flag since there are so many acfs out there to replace every part of bardic music and knowledge.

Yeah, that all makes total sense. Seems like mechanically there are a small handful of options to maybe notice that this tiefling isn't a tiefling, but noticing/identifying him as 'not-a-bard' isn't really a thing, which I understand, both from the metagame sense and the roles/behaviors-aren't-classes sense. So aside from directly noticing the actual presence of spellthief specific abilities, I don't think there's a feasible way ingame to put the lie to the character's claims about that.

[Crake]

Yeah, that all makes total sense. Seems like mechanically there are a small handful of options to maybe notice that this tiefling isn't a tiefling, but noticing/identifying him as 'not-a-bard' isn't really a thing, which I understand, both from the metagame sense and the roles/behaviors-aren't-classes sense. So aside from directly noticing the actual presence of spellthief specific abilities, I don't think there's a feasible way ingame to put the lie to the character's claims about that.

Well, I mean, even in the presence of spellthief abilities, that doesn't make the character any less of a bard, does it? He's just a bard that can steal spells. Is there actually anything wrong with that? Is stealing spells illegal or something? (not a facetious question, it may well be) Is it wrong for the character to not publically announce all of his capabilities to a group of new people he's barely even met? Did they deny their ability to steal spells? What part of them being a spell thief is in any way a lie, the only part that I can see that they've actively lied about is their race being tiefling, everything else checks out, unless you count lies of omission.

[Crichton]

Well, I mean, even in the presence of spellthief abilities, that doesn't make the character any less of a bard, does it? He's just a bard that can steal spells. Is there actually anything wrong with that? Is stealing spells illegal or something? (not a facetious question, it may well be) Is it wrong for the character to not publically announce all of his capabilities to a group of new people he's barely even met? Did they deny their ability to steal spells? What part of them being a spell thief is in any way a lie, the only part that I can see that they've actively lied about is their race being tiefling, everything else checks out, unless you count lies of omission.

This too, is entirely a fair point. Suffice it to say that the jury is out on intentions, and perhaps time will tell if he's a bard (in role/behavior) who can steal spells, or a spellthief/rogue who's temporarily masquerading as a bard for some other reason, maybe because bards are more readily accepted or being a bard makes it easier to infiltrate whatever it is that the party is doing. Outside the game, I'm suspecting the latter, but I could be quite wrong. Player has asked me to roll with it for the time being, and I am. Just wanna get my bases covered for whatever the result is.

[Crake]

This too, is entirely a fair point. Suffice it to say that the jury is out on intentions, and perhaps time will tell if he's a bard (in role/behavior) who can steal spells, or a spellthief/rogue who's temporarily masquerading as a bard for some other reason, maybe because bards are more readily accepted or being a bard makes it easier to infiltrate whatever it is that the party is doing. Outside the game, I'm suspecting the latter, but I could be quite wrong. Player has asked me to roll with it for the time being, and I am. Just wanna get my bases covered for whatever the result is.

Well, if you want to be able to tell they're a changeling, buy a scout's headband, obviously don't just activate the true seeing and turn to look at them, that's metagamey as fk, but if you come across illusions or the like, you'll be likely to spot him in that 1 minute of true seeing.

Either way, a scout's headband is definitely near the top of my list of "amazing magical items, buy asap".

[Crichton]

Well, if you want to be able to tell they're a changeling, buy a scout's headband, obviously don't just activate the true seeing and turn to look at them, that's metagamey as fk, but if you come across illusions or the like, you'll be likely to spot him in that 1 minute of true seeing.

Either way, a scout's headband is definitely near the top of my list of "amazing magical items, buy asap".

Oh yeah, it's on the list now, for sure. Hadn't ever really thought about one before you mentioned it. Thanks!

[Wraith]

Depending on how to choose to handle the mechanics of shape-changing, there is the possibility of dropping a hint should the character in question ever become injured.

The Changeling gets into a fight and is cut - are they able to maintain their assumed appearance through the pain and with damaged nerves/skin? A successful perception check might reveal something quite un-Tiefling-like that could be investigated later.

Similarly - though more gruesomely - can a Changeling maintain their appearance even if the affected body part is amputated? It doesn't have to be a brutal maiming, but let's say the Changling is in a fight and an ear tip or finger is cut off; would it still look like a Tiefling's ear tip or finger? Maybe the nail and skin tone would change back to their own pale grey, if that is appropriate to your internal logic.

I'm not advocating that your player characters should go around snipping bits off of people "just in case" - it'd take far too long - but its a possibility if they get desperate or you need to engineer a situation that they could later pick up upon.

[Crichton]

Depending on how to choose to handle the mechanics of shape-changing, there is the possibility of dropping a hint should the character in question ever become injured.

The Changeling gets into a fight and is cut - are they able to maintain their assumed appearance through the pain and with damaged nerves/skin? A successful perception check might reveal something quite un-Tiefling-like that could be investigated later.

Similarly - though more gruesomely - can a Changeling maintain their appearance even if the affected body part is amputated? It doesn't have to be a brutal maiming, but let's say the Changling is in a fight and an ear tip or finger is cut off; would it still look like a Tiefling's ear tip or finger? Maybe the nail and skin tone would change back to their own pale grey, if that is appropriate to your internal logic.

I'm not advocating that your player characters should go around snipping bits off of people "just in case" - it'd take far too long - but its a possibility if they get desperate or you need to engineer a situation that they could later pick up upon.

Getting injured wouldn't do anything. Changelings don't 'maintain' their appearance. Their ability is a 'minor physical alteration' and lasts 'until he changes shape again' so there's no ongoing effort to maintain a shape.

As for the amputation bit, that might work? Would have to be a DM ruling. The changeling rules say they do revert to their natural form when they die, so if a severed bit of them is considered dead, it probably would revert, but that's not spelled out in the rules one way or the other.

[Âmesang]

My first thought was the 1st level bard/sorcerer/wizard spell, discern bloodline from Races of Destiny; on a failed Will save you can identify a target's race, including inherited template.

[Crichton]

My first thought was the 1st level bard/sorcerer/wizard spell, discern bloodline from Races of Destiny; on a failed Will save you can identify a target's race, including inherited template.

Yeah, that'd do it, and it's only a 1st level spell. Hadn't heard of that one. But it's a single creature target (per round), so the caster would have to have some reason or motivation to cast the spell on the character in question.