Handling challange for party when some players min-maxing and others are sub-optimal

[Mitsu]

So I just want to know how do you try to handle encounters where you have mixed in your group.

Now before anyone would start with "I would not allow min-maxers in my group/I forbid/I say no/I tell them how to play" etc. - I am not looking for that, just for knowledge of balancing encounters for such party.

So you have 5 players. Two of them are obvious min-maxers, their builds are planned, calculated, feats are obviously optimized, race choice too. They know every quirk, hole, trick in RAW and know rules as good if not better than DM.

But rest 3 players are casulas who have sub-optimal race + class choices, more like "this looks fun, I take it" type of players. They don't know mechanics that well, they made their characters more fun "fun reasons" than "what is good". Their stats are little all over (no dump stats etc.) and feats are what they thought was interesting instead of strongest.

Now to encounters. By all means two optimized players will destroy everything in their path no problem if we follow classic CRs and enemies appropriate for party level. Rest are either carries or struggles a little. The higher levels- the more optimized players are ahead of typical CR curve.

Now if you make encounters challanging for the two optimized players- the other 3 mostly die in first 2 turns or deal no damage/can't hit enemies.

Party itself goes well, people like each other. But if you adjust challange to 3 sub-optimals, they breeze through it. If you adjust to 2 optimized players- 3 other usually end up useless or dead in combat. Metagaming (enemies only attack optimized ones while ignoring sub-optimals) is kind of obvious and make both sides frustrated.

Now - in your experience as DMs- how do you try to balance such party when it comes to encounters? What are your tricks in your sleeve? Did you experience such party compositions at all?

Please share. Thanks.

[Aussiehams]

It probably depends a lot on the classes and style of the different characters. Their is a lot of variety in monsters so you can probably tailor your encounters to let less optimized shine more some times, or make more rpg encounters etc.
Don't do it too often though, as generally min/maxers really enjoy shining in combats, and casual players are often okay with not dominating, and that's why they are a less focused build.

[sithlordnergal]

So, that is a difficult balancing act to have to deal with. Now, since great encounter building generally involves knowing your party extremely well, from their builds to their tactics, no solution is going to be perfect. But for something like that, I'd do the following:

1) Use more medium strength encounters, and base the strength of the encounters off the un-optimized group of party member due to them being the majority.

2) Have more encounters per rest then is recommended.

3) Occasionally toss in one of those difficult encounters for the two optimized players, preferable in the middle of their adventuring day.

4) Try to target the optimized players weaknesses without making it super overt. I.E. if they're playing characters with low dex, give them some dex saves.

The main goal here is to drain the optimized player's resources, which can be challenging. That said, you may not need to worry. It depends on the player's personalities, but if the Min/Maxer's are like me, then they'll likely play support until the party runs into something that is a massive enough threat for them to show off their stuff.

[Helldin87]

We throw around terms like "optimized" a lot. Another term for it would be "specialized". Most of these builds have 1-2 things they are really, really good at (usually DPR). Some of them are "OK" at a lot of other things too but I find many are genuinely BAD at some things too. Your more generalized characters will possibly not be at a disadvantage.

What are the min/max builds in question? It might help for more specific answers to your question.

[Lyracian]

I have just started running a game with a mix of player experience as well.

For the first adventure I set the magic items to be focused more for the weaker players; a short sword for the Thief rather than a long sword for the experience players. I also made sure to use some investigative rolls to find things not just perception as they dumped Int.

Only first level at the moment so not a lot of difference yet.

While you can not have monsters just target the min/max players you can have those with lower HP (if you roll) attack the others?

Try and have role play rather than just combat situations. Maybe someone has to help the sick cow at the farm or fast talk the trader? These could be area the others players excel at?

My wife just created a character with Acolyte background and Magic Initiate to be a failed Cleric with a few spells. A fun build but not optimal.

What is the party mix? What makes the other characters bad and what situations can you use to manoeuvre the party into a situation that balances it? A night attack when the heavy armour brigade with not have armour on?

[Mitsu]

Party is level 4 now, close to level 5:

The party in question is:

Optimized:

1. Crossbow Expert/Sharp Shooter Vuman Battlemaster (archery style obviously)
2. Vuman future-Hexadin Devotion Paladin 18 CHA + GWM

Sub-Optimal:

1. Hill Dwarf Rogue Scout
2. Knowledge Domain Cleric Half-Elf with Inspiring Leader as his first feat and quite bad stats because he wanted a lot of CHA and WIS.
3. Gnome Monk

Generally I have problem:

Vuman Battlemater shreds things on distance while Heavy Armor Paladin can do a lot of stuff and dish out great damage when needed with Sacred Weapon + Shield of Faith and is quite tanky (right now AC 20 with Shield of Faith + Defensive style). While he doesn't have damage and DPR like Crossbow Master a Sacred Weapon GWM greatsword with 2d6 + 10 + 1k4 to hit (+4 from Sacred Weapon and -5 from GWM gives only -1 to hit which Bless counters totally) from cleric Bless hurts when it hits on 4 level (average 17 dmg on hit). They have good CON scores (obviously) and both have decent AC as both can use whatever armor they want. Devotion Paladin will grab 3 levels of Hexblade later for CHA greatsword attacks.

Rest of the party is sub optimal and my problems is:

I tried to do combat encounter that would challange resources of Paladin and be a threat for Xbow Expert BM but it ended up with Hill Dwarf Rogue dying in first 2 turns, Gnome Monk dying in third and Half-Elf Cleric losing all resources to keep them alive, while being quite useless overall in combat.

Now I try to not meta game so I try to make enemies attack using some logic but even if I try to spread damage across party, the low AC of the rest of the party and average combat strength + lower HP makes it hard, not to mention that they are just not really combat optimized while other two are super-optimized.

I have no problems in out of combat activities- I can give everyone something to do, but when it comes to combat there is a HUGE gap between those already.

[Mitsu]

For the first adventure I set the magic items to be focused more for the weaker players; a short sword for the Thief rather than a long sword for the experience players. I also made sure to use some investigative rolls to find things not just perception as they dumped Int.

I like magic items idea, seems like one of good ways to balance party progression. I could give sub-optimals more direct magic items (like weapon +1) while (to not be unfair) give optimized some utility magic items that don't affect their direct power.

[Teaguethebean]

To help ops problem a few magic items come to mind for your weaker party members. Bracers of protection are great for a monk. If the cleric needs to be a better healer throw in a staff of healing or if the need to be more survivable a magic set of half plate would fit nice as nobody in that party should be much attracted to medium armor. Finally that dwarf scout brings up a few options a cloak of elven kind could be good or perhaps help him interact with the environment in combat with something like slippers of spider climb.

[Thrudd]

I think you're thinking about it too hard. You have room for trial and error. Use the guidelines for challenges given in the DMG, don't worry about how the characters are designed. If the first fight is easier than you expected, toughen up the next one (if it's supposed to be tough). They should be running into a variety of different levels of challenge anyway, and even when everything seems predictable on paper, you can never tell what will happen. Things you thought would be really easy turn out hard, because the dice are mean or the players do something silly. Things you thought would be really hard end up easy, because of unexpected strategies or just crazy luck. You can never know how things will turn out. Embrace that, don't try to plan out how encounters will turn out.

Think of the party, as a whole. It doesn't matter if one character is carrying the load for the whole group - if they (the group) are winning "hard" fights too easily, then make the fights harder. If everyone but one character is constantly getting knocked out during the fights, eventually that's going to catch up with the optimized guy and he's going to go down, too. If they all get killed, maybe they'll think about making their new characters more strategically, so more than one guy can contribute. Or they'll start being more careful about how they approach fights, and playing smarter so that everyone doesn't get knocked out.

If something is harder than you expected and a character or two dies, well that's what happens sometimes. If they all die, well that happens sometimes, too. It's a process, a learning experience for you and the players. Don't be afraid to let a few eggs get broken as you figure out the right recipe for your players.

[Malifice]

Party is level 4 now, close to level 5:

The party in question is:

Optimized:

1. Crossbow Expert/Sharp Shooter Vuman Battlemaster (archery style obviously)
2. Vuman future-Hexadin Devotion Paladin 18 CHA + GWM

Sub-Optimal:

1. Hill Dwarf Rogue Scout
2. Knowledge Domain Cleric Half-Elf with Inspiring Leader as his first feat and quite bad stats because he wanted a lot of CHA and WIS.
3. Gnome Monk

Generally I have problem:

Vuman Battlemater shreds things on distance while Heavy Armor Paladin can do a lot of stuff and dish out great damage when needed with Sacred Weapon + Shield of Faith and is quite tanky (right now AC 20 with Shield of Faith + Defensive style). While he doesn't have damage and DPR like Crossbow Master a Sacred Weapon GWM greatsword with 2d6 + 10 + 1k4 to hit (+4 from Sacred Weapon and -5 from GWM gives only -1 to hit which Bless counters totally) from cleric Bless hurts when it hits on 4 level (average 17 dmg on hit). They have good CON scores (obviously) and both have decent AC as both can use whatever armor they want. Devotion Paladin will grab 3 levels of Hexblade later for CHA greatsword attacks.

Rest of the party is sub optimal and my problems is:

I tried to do combat encounter that would challange resources of Paladin and be a threat for Xbow Expert BM but it ended up with Hill Dwarf Rogue dying in first 2 turns, Gnome Monk dying in third and Half-Elf Cleric losing all resources to keep them alive, while being quite useless overall in combat.

Now I try to not meta game so I try to make enemies attack using some logic but even if I try to spread damage across party, the low AC of the rest of the party and average combat strength + lower HP makes it hard, not to mention that they are just not really combat optimized while other two are super-optimized.

I have no problems in out of combat activities- I can give everyone something to do, but when it comes to combat there is a HUGE gap between those already.

Dont dial up encounter difficulty. You're only making the problem worse.

Instead, increase the number of encounters between long rests.

Also, use multiple mooks, and start encounters closer.

[Sigreid]

Min maxed characters have a min side of them too. Don't do it all the time, but toss in some encounters that are targeted to their weaknesses so they are depending on the other characters. Obscure vision, Enemies that pop in and out of cover, Enemies that target their weak saves, etc.

[Aussiehams]

A nest of rust monsters will panic your paladin while your monk laughs his way to mvp status.

[Malifice]

Party is level 4 now, close to level 5:

The party in question is:

Optimized:

1. Crossbow Expert/Sharp Shooter Vuman Battlemaster (archery style obviously)
2. Vuman future-Hexadin Devotion Paladin 18 CHA + GWM

Sub-Optimal:

1. Hill Dwarf Rogue Scout
2. Knowledge Domain Cleric Half-Elf with Inspiring Leader as his first feat and quite bad stats because he wanted a lot of CHA and WIS.
3. Gnome Monk

These PCs are not suboptimal at all. Heck one of them is a buff-bot (Inspiring leader plus Bless and other buffs). One is a Monk (and he's 1 level away from stunning fist and extra attack) and the other a Rogue (who should be dealing a lot of damage each round).


Vuman Battlemater shreds things on distance while Heavy Armor Paladin can do a lot of stuff and dish out great damage when needed with Sacred Weapon + Shield of Faith and is quite tanky (right now AC 20 with Shield of Faith + Defensive style).

The battlemaster deals a lot of damage to one thing per round. One thing.

Design your encounters appropriately. Ensure that most of your encounters feature multiple mooks, a few high priority targets, and maybe a caster.

6 Hobgoblins, a Hobgoblin Warlord and a caster of some kind (the Hobgoblin war mage).

Also; push multiple encounters per long rest on the party (that slows down the Paladin). Ensure you frame your adventuring days so they cant short rest more than once every 2-3 encounters, and cant long rest more than once every 6-8 encounters.

Both He (and the BM) are designed for single creature DPR. This party have no AoE attacks, and the main fighter types are crap at hordes.

Probably because you tend to include single high CR monsters, or encounters with only 1-3 such critters.

The problem isnt with the party; its with your encounter design and management of the adventuring day.

[Mitsu]

These PCs are not suboptimal at all. Heck one of them is a buff-bot (Inspiring leader plus Bless and other buffs). One is a Monk (and he's 1 level away from stunning fist and extra attack) and the other a Rogue (who should be dealing a lot of damage each round).



The battlemaster deals a lot of damage to one thing per round. One thing.

Design your encounters appropriately. Ensure that most of your encounters feature multiple mooks, a few high priority targets, and maybe a caster.

6 Hobgoblins, a Hobgoblin Warlord and a caster of some kind (the Hobgoblin war mage).

Also; push multiple encounters per long rest on the party (that slows down the Paladin). Ensure you frame your adventuring days so they cant short rest more than once every 2-3 encounters, and cant long rest more than once every 6-8 encounters.

Both He (and the BM) are designed for single creature DPR. This party have no AoE attacks, and the main fighter types are crap at hordes.

Probably because you tend to include single high CR monsters, or encounters with only 1-3 such critters.

The problem isnt with the party; its with your encounter design and management of the adventuring day.

Many good points, but I won't do more than maximum of 4 encounterts per day. I have story, NPCs, plot, dialogues, side activites etc. I don't run battle simulator at table to have 8 encounters per day. My sessions are 50% roleplay-story/50% fights at maximum.

But I will use some of your points. I like hobgoblins idea with caster at back. Actually, I should start throwing more casters at the back at them....

[Lyracian]

I like magic items idea, seems like one of good ways to balance party progression. I could give sub-optimals more direct magic items (like weapon +1) while (to not be unfair) give optimized some utility magic items that don't affect their direct power.

Looking at your party my first thought was magic leather armour for the Scout, bracers of Defense for the Monk then you can have Quiver of Elonia for the Crossbow Expert. You also have Elven Boots or Rope of Climbing for useful side items that are not combat based.

My Rogue has Leather +2 (essentially the same as Studded Leather +1 but weights less). Also are there any items the other characters would want from role-play point? We found an Ioun stone of Sustenance which my character has. Almost useless in most cases but looks cool.

[Pelle]

What do the players want, do they want more difficult or easier combats?

If some people are making powerful builds, then they probably want to breeze through combat and not be challenged. Just talk with the players about it, and agree on what people think will be fun. If you adjust more to the casuals, it's up to the "powergamers" to adjust their builds if they think combat becomes boring. If they don't, then they prefer easy combats, and you should stick to that.

[Malifice]

Many good points, but I won't do more than maximum of 4 encounterts per day. I have story, NPCs, plot, dialogues, side activites etc. I don't run battle simulator at table to have 8 encounters per day. My sessions are 50% roleplay-story/50% fights at maximum.

But I will use some of your points. I like hobgoblins idea with caster at back. Actually, I should start throwing more casters at the back at them....

If you're only running 4 encounters per day (max) you should consider switching to the gritty realism rest variant.

It's perfect for games that average 0-3 encounters per long rest.

[Zanthy1]

So what i've done in the past has been just upping the HP of the monsters. Typically when I see an "Optimized" build it is built to do one thing really well: Deal Damage. Upping the HP makes the baddies survive longer, but not necessarily hit harder. This allows for the less DPR focused characters to still participate in the battle, and not be rekt'd as fast as higher CR monsters might do. Also, tailor special item drops for the non optimized guys.

Another thing i've done is have the party go up against an organization. Encounters against this group have watchers who observe battles and report strategies back to their bosses. Maybe the party eventually finds them, but ultimately now the organization knows that the archer in the back is the real problem, and will do things to lure him out or get the drop on him.

[Spiritchaser]

OP, I certainly feel your pain, managing a mixed power level group is tough for me...

But maybe this will help: don’t focus on the weakness of your strong players, focus on building encounters or challenges that will let your less optimized builds do something cool and fun at least a couple of times per session.

Cool and fun do not actually have to equate to powerful in combat.

They can, and with the builds you listed, you should be able to make that happen... but they don’t have to.

Focus on situations where these players can actively choose to use their abilities in unusual ways to make a difference to where the plot goes.

Edit: I remember playing in a RIFTS campaign once (balance? We don’t need balance!)

I played a hyper optimized imported superhero... i was pushing the limits of being unkillable, and could perform nearly biblical feats of random destruction. My compatriots were weak and fragile, yet the game master made every encounter as critically dependent on their success as it was on mine. It was very well done.

He took advantage, not of weaknesses in my character, but differences in how the characters acted and what they were willing to do, as well as finding ways to turn a weakness into a strength.

[Bloodcloud]

So, a few things...

1. Concentrate some of that damage. Once the first battlemaster's arrow land and deal big damage, intelligent enemy start focusing on him. Paladin is also a locgical high priority target.

2. Monk should start shining soon when he stuns and the other two players get the auto advantage. Tell them to drop some appreciation on this, he should soon feel fulfilled.

3. Play to the unoptimised character's strenght. An encounter where the PC's don't have their weapons unless concealed. An encounter where someone needs to accomplish some skill based objective. Maybe, say, an encounter where they can sthealth around to some great advantage (access to some red barrelsTM to roll on a group of enemies, release a wild beast that will also attack the enemies/slaves who will revolt with the pc's)

4. Play to the optimised character weakness, which has been correctly identified as mobs of low cr enemies.

[Edenbeast]

Party is level 4 now, close to level 5:

The party in question is:

Optimized:

1. Crossbow Expert/Sharp Shooter Vuman Battlemaster (archery style obviously)
2. Vuman future-Hexadin Devotion Paladin 18 CHA + GWM

Sub-Optimal:

1. Hill Dwarf Rogue Scout
2. Knowledge Domain Cleric Half-Elf with Inspiring Leader as his first feat and quite bad stats because he wanted a lot of CHA and WIS.
3. Gnome Monk

Use more spellcasters, or "smarter" encounters in general. The battle master will likely have low wisdom saves for example. Use Hold Person or Suggestion, or anything that stops him or even make you control him (you could have him attack the paladin for example).


Now I try to not meta game so I try to make enemies attack using some logic but even if I try to spread damage across party, the low AC of the rest of the party and average combat strength + lower HP makes it hard, not to mention that they are just not really combat optimized while other two are super-optimized.

When your enemies attack and handle according to your knowledge as DM, yes that can be annoying and frustrating for the players, but not necessarily. My suggestion above for example: a smart antagonist, a wizard for example, will study the PCs. He may use Clairvoyance or Arcane Eye to learn how the party fights and determine the biggest threats/damage dealers, plan an ambush and act appropriately. You can basically neutralise the optimised characters and let the other three steal the show.

You said 50/50 role-play and combat. I don't know how good the players' roleplaying skills are (maybe they're all pretty good), but try to think of ways to reward good roleplaying. Make more use of skill checks. Intelligence is commonly a dump stat and the knowledges ignored. Monster weaknesses are governed through these, not because the player has a copy of the MM. If the Knowledge Cleric has these skills give him notes about monsters and locations the party encounters. Understand and enforce the difference between perception and investigation skills. For example: is there a candle that is the trigger to open a hidden door? The PCs spot nothing special about the room with perception, but the smart cookie with a successful investigation discovers there's something odd about that candle.

Like others have said do not only focus on weaknesses though. Determine the strengths of the unoptimised characters. There must something that drew them into playing the role they've created. The knowledge cleric with inspired leader, make him feel he's that knowledgeable guy and inspring leader. Give the hill dwarf the time and chances to shine as the party's scout. The gnome monk, I don't know what his concept is, but you do, so I'm sure you can figure that out. With 50/50 role-play/combat it's a fair deal that the combat is where the two optimised characters shine, while the other three get their chance to excel during other parts of the day, or even have their moments during combat (Like dispelling that Hold Person on the Battle Master).

[Deox]

Many good points, but I won't do more than maximum of 4 encounterts per day. I have story, NPCs, plot, dialogues, side activites etc. I don't run battle simulator at table to have 8 encounters per day. My sessions are 50% roleplay-story/50% fights at maximum.

But I will use some of your points. I like hobgoblins idea with caster at back. Actually, I should start throwing more casters at the back at them....

Something that irks me here. A vast majority assume that an encounter equals combat. Please do not fall into this trap. Combat is a consequence of an encounter. What is being suggested is 6-8 encounters. That is, 6 to 8 events that the party may use some sort of resource. NPC discussion that results in gaining information? Encounter. Side activity (or multiple)? Encounter (or multiple).

Again, combat is a consequence or result of an encounter.

[OverLordOcelot]

IMO the problem that people tend to run into is that they try to throw more of what the characters are optimized against at the party, and end up going overboard or killing weaker characters. Also people tend to be running 'one big enemy' fights, which are easier for players and tend to play into the strengths of 'optimized' builds. High AC can be countered with spells or grappling, high single-target damage can be countered with minions, ranged attacks can be countered with terrain and LOS blocking spells. If the party runs into something like a death priest and/or necromancer wizard with summoned minions, they can use spells like fog cloud and darkness to hinder ranged attacks, and pile on the paladin with minions (grapple and knock prone) to minimize the effects of the sharpshooter and give the other players a chance to shine, without being incredibly overpowered or feeling 'gamey' like specifically countering one player. A necromancer with a horde of skeletons/zombies/wights/ghasts who summons clouds of fog or vile blackness certainly doesn't break theme.

[Ganryu]

Let everyone shine. If the optimized character is doing too much, throw something resistant to his tactics at him. Most optimized characters are extremely specialized and can't adapt. I'm speaking as THAT guy in the group.

However, don't do this every encounter. Letting everyone shine means, including the munchkin to tear through some epic boss fights at some times. I had an ungodly AC tank in one campaign, a CR25 creature kept missing attacks at lvl 4. So the GM's solution? EVERY BLOODY THING had wisdom saving throws (8 in wisdom). Don't be that guy.

But I'm fine if I'm nerfed for a fight so the bard can shut down an HP sponge monster with dominate monster or something.

Oh, another thing, make a creature weak to a party member who isn't optimized too. You're goal is to let everyone have a moment to shine.