Salient Divine Abilities for Overdeities Rank 21+

[Carden-Gix'oth]

Ok, so Salient Divine Abilities are covered in Deities and Demigods. Specifically the number granted to each category of Deity (Demigods, Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater) are covered on Pg. 25


My question is about deities of 21+Divine Ranks. I.e. Overgods. How many Salient Divine Abilities do Overgods get, were you able to draw ones ire enough for the DM to have to make a Stat Block for one. The only SDAs and Divine Ranks covered are as follows (covered on Pg. 32)

Demigods:

Rank 1-5
Salient Divine Abilities

Rank +1

Lesser Deities:

Rank 6-10
Salient Divine Abilities

Rank +2

Intermediate Deities:

Rank 11-15
Salient Divine Abilities

Rank +3

Greater Deities:

Rank 16-20
Salient Divine Abilities

Rank +5



But Overgods/Overdeities are not mentioned.

How many would an Overgod (Rank 21+) receive?

[zlefin]

the rules iirc are clear on this (not sure where exactly):

don't.
overdeities should not be statted out; they're not supposed to be stattable.
and if it comes up, they just win, period. they're not meant to be fought or fightable by anyone, not even by greater deities.

[ColorBlindNinja]

As far as I know, the rules don't say.

You could extrapolate that Overdeities should have 8 or 10 from the established pattern that the other gods follow.

[gkathellar]

An overdeity can do whatever it wants, and you should assume it already is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

An overdeity can do whatever it wants, and you should assume it already is.

D&D gods aren't omnipotent.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

D&D gods aren't omnipotent.

With the exception of Ao and the DM, of course

[Carden-Gix'oth]

As far as I know, the rules don't say.

You could extrapolate that Overdeities should have 8 or 10 from the established pattern that the other gods follow.

I'll take this up with my DM see what he thinks.

See, our DM approved the Homebrew class Godling: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Godling_(3.5e_Prestige_Class) since we're near the end of the campaign. One of the class features is "Divine Spark" which is how you gain your divinity.

Your Divine Rank is equal to your BAB, and in the ELH, it says that for any prestige class, feat, or other rule that uses your BAB, you use BAB+EAB to calculate everything except extra attacks.

Since I'm Epic Level 36 now (8 Paladin/17 Champion of the Silver Flame/10 Sorcerer/1 Godling) my BAB is 20 and my EAB is 8 for a total Divine Rank of 28, which puts me as an Overdeity

[ColorBlindNinja]

With the exception of Ao and the DM, of course

I don't recall hearing anything about Ao being omnipotent.


I'll take this up with my DM see what he thinks.

Okay.


See, our DM approved the Homebrew class Godling: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Godling_(3.5e_Prestige_Class) since we're near the end of the campaign. One of the class features is "Divine Spark" which is how you gain your divinity.

Your Divine Rank is equal to your BAB, and in the ELH, it says that for any prestige class, feat, or other rule that uses your BAB, you use BAB+EAB to calculate everything except extra attacks.

Since I'm Epic Level 36 now (8 Paladin/17 Champion of the Silver Flame/10 Sorcerer/1 Godling) my BAB is 20 and my EAB is 8 for a total Divine Rank of 28, which puts me as an Overdeity

If you don't already know, divine salient abilities are a mess.

Some are gamebreakingly powerful, others are utter trash. :smallfrown:

[Carden-Gix'oth]

I don't recall hearing anything about Ao being omnipotent.



Ao is the only Overdeity in the D&D Panteon, and is documented as not only ruling, but knowing when any deity does something outside of his/her portfolio. Like Lolth helping a drowning High Elf, or Pelor dictating the flow of the moon Selune (named after the Goddess Selune). Not only could he bitch smack the deity back into order, but because he is so powerful and is the final step between.... everything... and "some luminous force beyond the normal cosmology" (most likely the DM), Ao can theoritically do whatever the hell he wants. And since Ao directly reports the goings on to this "luminous force beyond the normal cosmology", he has to, by definition, be omniscient. He just lacks the ****s to give about anything but ensuring that deities stay in their own lanes.




If you don't already know, divine salient abilities are a mess.

Some are gamebreakingly powerful, others are utter trash. :smallfrown:

I am well aware of this. At my DM's approval, I'll be taking some of the revised SDAs from a homebrew list I found. Depends on what agreements we come to.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ao is the only Overdeity in the D&D Panteon, and is documented as not only ruling, but knowing when any deity does something outside of his/her portfolio. Like Lolth helping a drowning High Elf, or Pelor dictating the flow of the moon Selune (named after the Goddess Selune). Not only could he bitch smack the deity back into order, but because he is so powerful and is the final step between.... everything... and "some luminous force beyond the normal cosmology" (most likely the DM), Ao can theoritically do whatever the hell he wants. And since Ao directly reports the goings on to this "luminous force beyond the normal cosmology", he has to, by definition, be omniscient. He just lacks the ****s to give about anything but ensuring that deities stay in their own lanes.


I won't sidetrack this thread with a discussion on omnipotence, but will merely say I'm skeptical.


I am well aware of this. At my DM's approval, I'll be taking some of the revised SDAs from a homebrew list I found. Depends on what agreements we come to.


Best of luck to you.

[ViperMagnum357]

Ao is the only Overdeity in the D&D Panteon, and is documented as not only ruling, but knowing when any deity does something outside of his/her portfolio.

The Cosmology of Krynn also has the High God, the Overdeity tasked with keeping the Deities of Krynn in line and dropping the hammer when his charges mess things up, like tearing the world from its moorings and moving it to a different section of the Multiverse. Also has an Evil Counterpart in Chaos, a primordial force of comparable power that the Pantheon is helpless against, leaving it up to mortals to fix the problem.

The Amber trilogy also suggests that like Ao, the High God reports to an overseer vastly more powerful; when the High God passes judgement on the soul of the Evil Greater God that ripped the world from its moorings, it is suggested he is maneuvering within a cosmic framework not of his own design when he hands down his judgement and passes sentence.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

The Cosmology of Krynn also has the High God, the Overdeity tasked with keeping the Deities of Krynn in line and dropping the hammer when his charges mess things up, like tearing the world from its moorings and moving it to a different section of the Multiverse. Also has an Evil Counterpart in Chaos, a primordial force of comparable power that the Pantheon is helpless against, leaving it up to mortals to fix the problem.

The Amber trilogy also suggests that like Ao, the High God reports to an overseer vastly more powerful; when the High God passes judgement on the soul of the Evil Greater God that ripped the world from its moorings, it is suggested he is maneuvering within a cosmic framework not of his own design when he hands down his judgement and passes sentence.

Krynn is a separate world, and separate Pantheon of Gods from Aber-Toril and Faerun. Ao is supreme among the Faerunian Gods. Within the Norse Panthen, Odin is supreme. Zeus for Grecian/Romani, and Amun-Ra (or just Ra) for Egyptian. Unless you're operating in the Egyptian timeline where Horus sits upon the Sun Throne, and then Horus is technically supreme.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

I won't sidetrack this thread with a discussion on omnipotence, but will merely say I'm skeptical.

There is an old D&D motto:

"If it has stats, we can kill it!"

Cthulhu has stats. Torm, Tyr, Bahamut, Lolth, Shar, Sharess, and so on, all have stats. Hells, a Tarrasque has stats. Ao, does not. That is how powerful Ao is.

"Hey, how powerful is this 'Ao' God?"
Yes
"No, see, I wanna become the new overgod and rule everything!"
Heh... yeah... no.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is an old D&D motto:

"If it has stats, we can kill it!"

Cthulhu has stats. Torm, Tyr, Bahamut, Lolth, Shar, Sharess, and so on, all have stats. Hells, a Tarrasque has stats. Ao, does not. That is how powerful Ao is.

"Hey, how powerful is this 'Ao' God?"
Yes
"No, see, I wanna become the new overgod and rule everything!"
Heh... yeah... no.

Pun Pun says hi.

[ViperMagnum357]

Krynn is a separate world, and separate Pantheon of Gods from Aber-Toril and Faerun. Ao is supreme among the Faerunian Gods. Within the Norse Panthen, Odin is supreme. Zeus for Grecian/Romani, and Amun-Ra (or just Ra) for Egyptian. Unless you're operating in the Egyptian timeline where Horus sits upon the Sun Throne, and then Horus is technically supreme.

That is distinctly different-Krynn exists alongside Abeir-Toril and the rest of the standard Great Wheel/wider multiverse; it does not replace the cosmology. Ao and the High God exist alongside each other, and mortals can and do pass between Krynn, Greyhawk and Faerun; at a minimum, those three exist within the Wheel without overlapping or replacing one another.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

That is distinctly different-Krynn exists alongside Abeir-Toril and the rest of the standard Great Wheel/wider multiverse; it does not replace the cosmology. Ao and the High God exist alongside each other, and mortals can and do pass between Krynn, Greyhawk and Faerun; at a minimum, those three exist within the Wheel without overlapping or replacing one another.

The Dragonlance setting is distinctly different in how it operates from the Forgotten Realms. Same as Eberron and Greyhawk. In fact, if you're running a Spell Jammer campaign, you can travel between these worlds, more or less at will, as you stated. And around each of these worlds is a crystal-like structure with small holes in it to allow spell jamming vessels through.

The only exception to this is Ravenloft, which was cut off from the multiverse because **** Ravenloft.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

I need to clarify. Dragonlance is still a d20 system, and all the mechanics are the same. However, everything from the Pantheon to the culture, to how certain spells work changes when you travel from Faerun to Krynn. Hells, the Pantheon is so different in Krynn, one man slaughtered all of the Dragonlance gods.

[ngilop]

Yeah.... as with the majority of the thread.. Overdiety is just supposed to be so above and beyond even the deities themselves that one should not be statted. The answer to the question "can the overdiety [blank] is always YES.



The being Ao talks to is the DM, its very very heavily hinted and implied that is who Ao is talking about.





I know somebody is all like 'punpun lulz' BUT they forget that punpun requires a non existant DM or at the very least a DM who never says no. It doesn't matter how many divine ranks that punpun gets, an overdiety IN CANON, is able to just say 'lol nope, you are now just a normal little swueeky kobold with a rat tail'



Remember when you are talking about overdieties the answer is and always will be 'yes... yes it can'

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah.... as with the majority of the thread.. Overdiety is just supposed to be so above and beyond even the deities themselves that one should not be statted. The answer to the question "can the overdiety [blank] is always YES.

Nothing in the rules implies this is the case.


I know somebody is all like 'punpun lulz' BUT they forget that punpun requires a non existant DM or at the very least a DM who never says no. It doesn't matter how many divine ranks that punpun gets, an overdiety IN CANON, is able to just say 'lol nope, you are now just a normal little swueeky kobold with a rat tail'

Pun Pun actually can become omnipotent.

[DdarkED]

so Ao is all knowing and all powerful, but makes mistakes anyway? and punishes every god when 3 of em act like **** ups? yeah no. does not compute.

[ColorBlindNinja]

so Ao is all knowing and all powerful, but makes mistakes anyway? and punishes every god when 3 of em act like **** ups? yeah no. does not compute.

That was more or less my objection.

[DdarkED]

side thought, gods that exists in more then one setting, which over diety if any do they answer to/serve?

[ExLibrisMortis]

(1) Epic attack bonus is not base attack bonus. You will simply be rank 20, unless...
(2) RHD can provide base attack bonus beyond 20, so I suggest becoming some kind of advanced great wyrm, for a divine rank well past 40.
(3) That class is wonky as hell.
(4) Overdeities do not have stats by RAW. Any attempt at statting them is strictly homebrew.
(5) Overdeities should have SDAs along the lines of "create new rank 20 deity" and "shift Plane X into Plane Y". The only ability that's probably not valid is anything to do with the Far Realm, because that's the antithesis of the Great Wheel, where the logic and structure of that cosmology don't make sense, and thus the overdeity's power is undefined.

[ezekielraiden]

With the exception of Ao and the DM, of course

Given that Ao works differently from any other divine being anyway--he doesn't grant spells, doesn't need worship, sets the rules that deities follow, etc.... I'm inclined to say that "overdeity" is not actually part of the deity set. It's strictly more powerful, in a way that gaining an excess of normal-deity power cannot match. Sort of like how aleph-null, or omega, are strictly greater than all finite reals or integers, respectively.

So, sure, have an even-more-superlative category for deities beyond rank 20. But they're still a type of deity, and overdeities will, hah, overrule them.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

(1) Epic attack bonus is not base attack bonus.


Epic Level Handbook, Pg. 6, Section "Epic Attack Bonus" Lines 1-3 read as follows (I'm copying this straight from the rule book pdf, not from the SRD.):

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, your base attack bonus
does not increase after your character level reaches 20th.
However, you do receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on
all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as
shown on Table 1–1: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses.
Any time feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your
base attack bonus (except for gaining additional attacks),
use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.


This means that for the Divine Spark you add your Epic Attack Bonus, to your Base Attack Bonus, as it is a Extraordinary Ability (Ex), and is a rule that refers to the BAB, and does not give you an extra attack. So my Divine Rank would be 28 as I calculated earlier.

[ExLibrisMortis]

This means that for the Divine Spark you add your Epic Attack Bonus, to your Base Attack Bonus, as it is a Extraordinary Ability (Ex), and is a rule that refers to the BAB, and does not give you an extra attack.
You're quite right. Shows how much I've bothered with epic :smalltongue:.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're quite right. Shows how much I've bothered with epic :smalltongue:.

In total fairness, epic is really counter intuitive.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

You're quite right. Shows how much I've bothered with epic :smalltongue:.

To be completely fair, I've memorized most of the core books... been playing 3.5e for about a decade

[Bartmanhomer]

Overdeity are overpowered and can't be destroyed unless it gets destroyed by another overdeity.

[DdarkED]

i am not sure even over-diety's can destroy each other, i am off the opinion that if Io or another over-deity left the crystal sphere they call home they would lose the status of over-diety.

It is even possible they cannot leave the sphere or ARE the sphere personified.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Overdeity are overpowered and can't be destroyed unless it gets destroyed by another overdeity.

That's only the case if they take the Rejuvenation Divine Salient ability.

[Bartmanhomer]

That's only the case if they take the Rejuvenation Divine Salient ability.

Yes and and an Overdeity can have a divine rank of 25, 50 or even beyond that.

[Carden-Gix'oth]

i am not sure even over-diety's can destroy each other, i am off the opinion that if Io or another over-deity left the crystal sphere they call home they would lose the status of over-diety.

It is even possible they cannot leave the sphere or ARE the sphere personified.

What are you on about? Overdeities don't lose their power if they leave their plane....

[DdarkED]

since one has never been written up, can you give me a source? i did say it was my opinion, and not a fact. got any page numbers of io in krynn? ect? or are we both just giving opinions?

[Torpin]

my experience with all of this is:
Deities and demigods is trash and should never be used
the ELHB is trash and should never be used.
and the difference between deity and overdeity is one is a god while the other is a God. little g vs G makes a huge difference

[ColorBlindNinja]

and the difference between deity and overdeity is one is a god while the other is a God. little g vs G makes a huge difference

Again, nothing in the rules indicate this is the case.

[Bartmanhomer]

With Pun-Pun on the field, he gets an automatic win against any overdeity he fights. :tongue:

[Torpin]

you max out at 20 ranks. here is why
knowledge religion dc 11 a godling is a minor god
deity a god 0-20 divine ranks
therefore by definition you cannot be an overgod or someone with 21 ranks
furthermore it says you need worshipers and being's with 21+ divine ranks dont need worshipers

[Karl Aegis]

I thought the planes were more powerful than deities, but weaker than the overdeity. Wouldn't you just become a plane if you had 21 divine ranks? What would you even do?

[gkathellar]

D&D gods aren't omnipotent.

Overdeities aren't gods. They're probably not even Powers, in the most broadly defined sense, since they don't seem to behave like powers in any sense other than being impossibly powerful. Of they few examples we have of overdeity-class entities (Ao, Her Serenity, the Guardian of Dead Gods, maaaaaybe the Dark Powers, the Highgod but we don't actually know anything about him, Ahriman the Serpent and its kin if those are real and not just figments of Vecna's fevered imagination), none require worship and none seem to embody any particular concept except, perhaps, the structure of reality.

But even if they were gods, they so completely outstrip conventional Powers that the idea of trying to sum them up with a statblock is laughable (though to be fair, I find the idea of summing up Powers with a statblock only slightly less absurd). The Lady of Pain keeps all the gods and the Blood War out of Sigil not by virtue of an SDA but by virtue of the setting having rules which she embodies, and she certainly didn't need a stated ability titled "Gank Deity" to make Aoskar up and explode from several planes away. Ao once grabbed every member of every one of the FR pantheons (except Helm, who he spared), stripped them of their immortality, and dropped them onto the Prime as an extended punishment/test of character. The Dark Powers can kidnap anyone from anywhere at any time in their task of curating a plane-sized haunted house. The Serpent, if Vecna is right, is the source of all magic.

Omnipotence never even enters into the picture. These are beings that seem exclusively interested in carrying out their vaguely defined responsibilities, and have the ability to do so without fail. Hence, they can do whatever they want.


I thought the planes were more powerful than deities, but weaker than the overdeity. Wouldn't you just become a plane if you had 21 divine ranks? What would you even do?

There's nothing to suggest that a Power can become a Plane, and I would suggest that the two are different (though related) classes of entity.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Overdeities aren't gods.

Citation needed.


But even if they were gods, they so completely outstrip conventional Powers that the idea of trying to sum them up with a statblock is laughable

Hardly. It's more than possible to create absurdly powerful beings with statblocks.


There's nothing to suggest that a Power can become a Plane, and I would suggest that the two are different (though related) classes of entity.

He may be talking about the Immortal Handbook, where gods can become planes of existence and are more powerful in that state.

[Torpin]

Citation needed.



page 4 pf faiths and pantheons, calls ao an overgod snd mentiond he is not known on the material plane. then
Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care
nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer
prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is
to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called
overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity
is required for an entity to become a deity.
all the fluff explains that ao takes and give divine status. all this information and inferences live within these pages. furthmore many divine abilities CAP when the being at rank 20. for instance all beings with 16-20 get maximum rolls for all things. this means beings who are descrinbed as being stronger than rank 20 dont get max rolls, thus one can assume that means they dont get roles therefore cannot be stated

[ColorBlindNinja]

page 4 pf faiths and pantheons, calls ao an overgod snd mentiond he is not known on the material plane. then
Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care
nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer
prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is
to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called
overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity
is required for an entity to become a deity.
all the fluff explains that ao takes and give divine status. all this information and inferences live within these pages. furthmore many divine abilities CAP when the being at rank 20. for instance all beings with 16-20 get maximum rolls for all things. this means beings who are descrinbed as being stronger than rank 20 dont get max rolls, thus one can assume that means they dont get roles therefore cannot be stated

None of that says they aren't gods.

In fact, some of that text is taken from the SRD describing gods.

[Torpin]

none of that says they aren't gods.

In fact, some of that text is taken from the srd describing gods.

it calls ao an overgod

[gkathellar]

Citation needed.

They have none of the attributes of gods. They don't have portfolios. They don't map to concepts. They don't have Divine Realms. They don't need or respond to worshipers (some are actively hostile to them). The existing SDAs don't come close to describing what they're known to be capable of.


Hardly. It's more than possible to create absurdly powerful beings with statblocks.

I said "laughable," not "impossible." You can write up ridiculous unusable statblocks, if you want, but like ... why would you? Giving stats to Ao is like giving stats to gravity.

[ColorBlindNinja]

it calls ao an overgod

And?


They have none of the attributes of gods. They don't have portfolios. They don't map to concepts. They don't have Divine Realms. They don't need or respond to worshipers (some are actively hostile to them). The existing SDAs don't come close to describing what they're known to be capable of.

You haven't provided evidence for any of that.

All the SRD says about overdeities is this:



Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

Nothing about them not having portfolios.

They don't have worshipers or grant spells. That's it.

[Torpin]

And?



You haven't provided evidence for any of that.

All the SRD says about overdeities is this:



Nothing about them not having portfolios.

They don't have worshipers or grant spells. That's it.
you are just being intentionally obtuse

[ColorBlindNinja]

you are just being intentionally obtuse

No, you haven't proven your claim. At all.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There probably isn't a source that outright says that overdeities do not get domains. However, there is also no source that actually gives overdeities access to domains (which makes sense, given that they don't have worshipers that would receive the domain power/spells), and if you don't get them by a specific rule, you don't get them at all.

In other words: Overdeities do not generally get no domains, but none of the specific overdeities specifically do get domains.
Pragmatically: No overdeity functions like a regular deity for the purposes of interaction with mortals, therefore, from the typical PC's perspective, they might as well not be deities. Of course, since we're not talking about a typical PC, but rather an overdeity PC, that is a moot point.


A small clue regarding overdeities may be gleaned from the sixth page of Deities and Demigods, specifically, the "The Divine Glossary" sidebar: "Deity: A god. Deities have from 0 to 20 divine ranks". For what it's worth--it's rather a throwaway definition. However, there's a little more to it. Overdeities do not receive all of the benefits listen on page 26-28 "Divine Characteristics", as well:

(1) Hit points, speed, AC, attacks, saving throws, immunities, salient divine abilities, immortality: no specifics, scale with divine rank as normal.
(2) Always maximize roll: greater deities only.
(3) Skills: Always take 10/always roll 20: respectively lesser and intermediate deities only.
(4) Grant Spells, domain powers, and spell-like abilities: Overdeities do not grant spells or respond to mortals, and that presumably includes not granting access to domains, so they do not get to use domain powers or SLAs of the granted spells themselves.
(5) Remote Sensing, Automatic Actions, Create Magic Items, Divine Aura, Godly Realm: Usage limits are undefined outside rank 1-20.
(6) Portfolios: All deities of rank 1 and higher have a portfolio, but overdeities do not have portfolio sense, as it's only defined for rank 1-20.
(7) Communication: Usage limit tied to Remote Sensing, so undefined for overdeities.

The word "overdeity" is only used three times in the entire book: Once in the description of entities with a divine rank of 21+ ("They are called overdeities"), once in the description of a "tight pantheon" ("All the deities show at least some respect for a particular philosophical principle or overdeity") and once in a campaign idea where all deities share one outer plane ("This assumes an "overdeity" or some other powerful force capable of imposing rules on the pantheon"). Overdeities are never outright called deities.

By far the most straightforward way to interpret the various rules regarding deities and overdeities is to consider the glossary to be definitive: overdeities are not deities, they just happen to share the divine rank mechanic with them. Overdeities do not have domains or portfolios, because none of them are described as having them. Overdeities are not given stats because they are primarily intended to be a driving force behind the unity of a pantheon, a campaign fixture that cannot be interacted with through game abilities.