Alternative Help actions

[Vogie]

My group of new players seems to like the Help action, but always want to roll for it, instead of having the active player roll with advantage. It hasn't come up during COMBAT (EDIT, I left this word off)

I was thinking having them either:

roll their version of the ability check (with proficiency & modifiers), then cut it in half, and donate it to the other player; or
roll a d10, add proficiencies & modifiers, then give that to the player they're helping.



Has anyone else done something like this? How did it go?

[Quoz]

The key concept of 5e is bounded accuracy. That means specifically not having runaway stacking bonuses. I would advise sticking to granting advantage.

If you do want to deviate, the guidance cantrip makes a good guideline. Add 1d4, at the cost of your action and concentration.

There are also other more limited use resources like Bardic inspiration, spells that give situational bonuses like pass without trace or charm person, and debuffs on opposed checks. All of these are balanced by the fact that they consume resources. I like to reward clever players for thinking creatively, so lowering difficulty for finding a non obvious solution or allowing proficiency when it wouldn't normally apply are also good.

[sophontteks]

Both your suggestions are much stronger then advantage, which is already pretty strong, and I don't see what problem this is supposed to solve.

As the above poster pointed out, guidance an average of +2, and its considered quite good. Half of a players roll plus profeciency could easily be over a +10 bonus.

[nickl_2000]

I feel like Help is an extremely underused interaction, at least it is at my table. You could do it as follows and still keep it sane.

You can help normally as an action.
OR
You roll an ability check verses the opponents ability check. If you succeed you help for all the attacks the person makes during their turn (not just a single attack). If you fail, you get nothing.

[Vogie]

I'm sorry, I left out the word "combat" from the OP.

The original intent of the OP was better Out-of-Combat help actions.

[clash]

You could have a help dc where it equals say the dc-5 for example. Then add what they roll above the help dc to the other guys score. Example dc is 15 first guy rolls 14 other guy rolls 12 beating help dc by 2. 14+2=16 so together they succeed on the check. Alternatively just play that if 2 people are working together the dc is 5 lower but both people have to beat it

[nickl_2000]

I'm sorry, I left out the word "combat" from the OP.

The original intent of the OP was better Out-of-Combat help actions.

Ya that makes a gigantic difference. Those still seem like they would make many ability checks almost trivial. What about this?

The player helping makes an ability check with a DC 10. On Success, they give the person that they are helping a bonus based on the total amount (or maybe half the amount) over 10. On failure, they give the person attempting to make the real ability check disadvantage (they. got in the way). It is more complicated, but hey it may be fun

[Contrast]

As noted both of the solutions you've proposed are substantially more powerful than normal advantage so are you looking to make the help action more powerful or for a way to make the helper more engaged with the process?

If you're trying to make the help action more powerful my suggestion honestly would just be to remember that you don't need to ask for rolls in a situation where the resolution isn't really in doubt. If the PC is trying to push a cart (requiring a roll) and then another PC decides to help, feel free to rule that the two of them together can just do it without a roll. I would caution against just adding substantial bonuses to a skill check though because bounded accuracy breaks very hard very quickly when you do this.

Are they not liking it because they enjoy rolling dice and it doesn't feel like they're really engaging unless they roll?

The simple solution would just be to keep it as advantage but have the helping player roll one of the dice (both using whoever has the highest modifier).

[sophontteks]

Help actions are mostly out of combat. Rolling 2 die pulls the roll closer to the average of 10 and dramatically reduces the chance of a critical failure. It makes skill checks safer and more dependable without raising the ceiling.

The changes proposed turn it into a different beast, where instead the help action practically doubles the value of the skill check, allowing players to perform even impossible tasks with a reasonable chance of success. This wouod require a rework of all the skill DCs in order to prevent everything out of combat from being trivial, but in doing so no player would be capable of making a check unassisted.

At +5 skill, a DC 15 check has a 50% chance of failure. With advantage its only 25%, because you have another chance to roll 10+. With your changes the success rate can easily reach 95% if both players are profecient, moreso if one or both have expertise. The only way a player could ever fail is with a critical fail. Difficult checks are trivialized and have no meaning over a DC 5 or DC 10. As players add other buffs this even carries to DC 20 and 25.

Another problem is that help actions are also designed to allow players to participate in checks they aren't profecient in. A cleric can assist the bard by chiming into the conversation. But this system strongly encourages unskilled players not to participate and leave these only to the players with the right skills.

[Vogie]

Are they not liking it because they enjoy rolling dice and it doesn't feel like they're really engaging unless they roll?

The simple solution would just be to keep it as advantage but have the helping player roll one of the dice (both using whoever has the highest modifier).

Yes, basically

Actually, this may be perfect. The "help" action would be each player rolling a die, selecting the highest roll, and using the higher modifier from the pair. It's just advantage, but with 2 people rolling a die instead of 1 person rolling 2 die.