Sorcer and ritual caster

[Sethcor]

So i am looking at making a Scorer, and I am Kinda split on what i should do to acquire ritual caster. Thinking one of three ways, Via the feat, Though less inclined on this one. The other two could be tome lock or via a bard and likely going lore for some extra bits there. The bard would give more spells known, but the ability to copy a lot of different rituals seems tempting.

[Vogie]

If you have the stats, then the best way is way #4:

A 1 level dip in Wizard
Not only do you get ritual caster, you also get 6 more spells known, which is HUGE for a sorcerer, and 3 level 1 spell slots per long rest (2 regular, then 1 via Arcane Recovery)

[nickl_2000]

If you have the stats, then the best way is way #4:

A 1 level dip in Wizard
Not only do you get ritual caster, you also get 6 more spells known, which is HUGE for a sorcerer, and 3 level 1 spell slots per long rest (2 regular, then 1 via Arcane Recovery)

Second this, you can put all your level 1 rituals into this and you can get a whole boatload of utility cantrips.


However, the disadvantage of this verses the feat is that the feat lets your get higher level rituals as you level up. Getting 1 level in Wizard or Bard does not.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, most rituals are 1st level anyway. Are there some specific high-level rituals you want?

[nickl_2000]

On the other hand, most rituals are 1st level anyway. Are there some specific high-level rituals you want?

In Wizard
Level 2:
Skywrite
Magic Mouth

Level 3:
Tiny Hut
Phantom Steed
Water Breathing


Water Breathing and Tiny Hut alone could make the feat worth it.

[Throne12]

Just go v-human and take the feat.

[RogueJK]

Just go v-human and take the feat.

Especially if you're going Shadow Sorcerer, where the allure of racial Darkvision is lessened.

[JackPhoenix]

If you have the stats, then the best way is way #4:

A 1 level dip in Wizard
Not only do you get ritual caster, you also get 6 more spells known, which is HUGE for a sorcerer, and 3 level 1 spell slots per long rest (2 regular, then 1 via Arcane Recovery)

It doesn't give you any extra spell slots another level in sorcerer wouldn't. You still get arcane recovery, but you use the multiclass spellcasting table for total slots.

[nickl_2000]

It doesn't give you any extra spell slots another level in sorcerer wouldn't. You still get arcane recovery, but you use the multiclass spellcasting table for total slots.

It doesn't give you spell slots, but it gives you spells known. Having more spells known can make a huge difference in versatility.

[Sethcor]

Just go v-human and take the feat.

I had not realy considered wizard as one of them i am interested in find familiar as one of them. The feat was less appealing as most the rituals I am looking at are either lvl 1 or 2, hence the warlock. Bard was really appealing due to the utility it would add instead. Also being that both would be using the same casting stat compared to the wizard dip.


V human was already the plan though was thinking elemental adapt as the plan so far is a Dragon Sorcerer. Which is also the reason i was thinking of dipping.

[RogueJK]

Bard was really appealing due to the utility it would add instead. Also being that both would be using the same casting stat compared to the wizard dip.

With the downside being that Bards have a weaker ritual list than Wizard, albeit better than Cleric or Druid. (And no Familiar.) And Bards get fewer spells known. Even with a 13ish INT, 1 level of Wizard can be useful, since there are a number of 1st Level Wizard ritual spells, defensive spells, and utility spells/cantrips that won't rely on your INT stat.

But if you're going to be taking more than 1 level of the other class, and plan on picking up some non-utility/non-ritual spells known, then having the same casting stat is a good idea. Just understand that every level of Bard you take reduces the power of your Sorcerer that much further. 1 level is usually not a big deal, with just a minor power loss in your primary class. Everything after 1 level is a tougher choice. You'll have more lower-level spells known, at the cost of higher level spells known and higher level class features.


tl;dr - If you're only taking 1 level, go Wizard, if you can afford the 13 INT multiclass requirement. If more than 1 level, go Bard, but think twice before doing more than 1 level.

[Bloodcloud]

So, warlock tome pact means very different gameplay. Then you are probably going for eldritch blast quickening discoball of lasers kinda deal. There's certainly power and possibility there, and the ritual list is without equal, especially if you go warlock 5 eventually (all class ritual up to level 3 is near all the rituals in the game). But then you are a sorlock, not a sorcerer.

[Sethcor]

With the downside being that Bards have a weaker ritual list than Wizard, albeit better than Cleric or Druid. (And no Familiar.) And Bards get fewer spells known. Even with a 13ish INT, 1 level of Wizard can be useful, since there are a number of 1st Level Wizard ritual spells, defensive spells, and utility spells/cantrips that won't rely on your INT stat.

But if you're going to be taking more than 1 level of the other class, and plan on picking up some non-utility/non-ritual spells known, then having the same casting stat is a good idea. Just understand that every level of Bard you take reduces the power of your Sorcerer that much further. 1 level is usually not a big deal, with just a minor power loss in your primary class. Everything after 1 level is a tougher choice. You'll have more lower-level spells known, at the cost of higher level spells known and higher level class features.


tl;dr - If you're only taking 1 level, go Wizard, if you can afford the 13 INT multiclass requirement. If more than 1 level, go Bard, but think twice before doing more than 1 level.

Yea, that's why the max i was looking at would be 3, I would lose out on a ability score improvement, but would not lose any of the spell slots or spell known as long as the other is a full caster. I haven't gotten the full character fleshed out so stats will depend on the method of stat generation that group uses. However, based on standard point buy i would likely go 8 st 13 dex 14 con 15 cha 12 wis 10 int the V human + stat would go to of set the 15 cha and 13 dex to 16 and 14 respectively. Thinking wis more than int for the fact of being a cha char means having face skills would be useful. The Dex being a bit higher for the ac Dragon Sorcerer will end up with 15 ac, which is not horrid, i can of course pick up the shield spell eventually, 2 ability score improvements would be dedicated to getting to 20 cha leaving me with 2 - 3 more, 3 if i do just a 1 level dip 2 if i do the 3 level dip. I will admit a lot of the dip is to get more spells known over all. and i would prefer though one that uses the same casting stat so some of those spells can be things other than utility. The ritual caster though is again the primary thought though and those are all utility

This could base plan could change greatly of course depending on the form of stat generation, but I generally plan out around point buy.

Hrmm a good bit to think on however, so I will need to look at this angle and such of course. I do appreciate the feedback.

[RogueJK]

However, based on standard point buy i would likely go 8 st 13 dex 14 con 15 cha 12 wis 10 int the V human + stat would go to of set the 15 cha and 13 dex to 16 and 14 respectively. Thinking wis more than int for the fact of being a cha char means having face skills would be useful.

I will admit a lot of the dip is to get more spells known over all. and i would prefer though one that uses the same casting stat so some of those spells can be things other than utility. The ritual caster though is again the primary thought though and those are all utility

The alternative would be to go:

STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 9
CHA 15+1

And take 1 level in Wizard. Not all non-INT-dependent Wizard spells would have to be utility. It could also include things like Booming Blade for a bit of added melee damage when needed, Mage Armor for increased AC, and Absorb Elements and Shield for defensive reactions. None of those rely on your INT stat.

(Even though all of those are available to a Sorcerer, it would free up your Sorcerer spells known for other spells that are CHA-dependent.)

With 1 level in Wizard, you'd end up with 3 additional Wizard cantrips and 6 1st level Wizard spells known, as well as Arcane Recovery. Plus you'd have Rituals, with access to more rituals than Bard, including the ever-useful Find Familiar.

[Sethcor]

So, warlock tome pact means very different gameplay. Then you are probably going for eldritch blast quickening discoball of lasers kinda deal. There's certainly power and possibility there, and the ritual list is without equal, especially if you go warlock 5 eventually (all class ritual up to level 3 is near all the rituals in the game). But then you are a sorlock, not a sorcerer.

I was not thinking going past 3, as that is a rather large dip, would to greatly impact the over all idea I have. but that is a good point about making pretty much all the rituals within grasp. honestly though there are only a few at 3 i might be interested in, like water breathing, Phantom stead or The tiny hut, both are quite useful. The main ones i am interested are things like tenser disk, find familiar, comprehend languages , alarm magic mouth.

[Sethcor]

The alternative would be to go:

STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 13
WIS 9
CHA 15+1

And take 1 level in Wizard. Not all non-INT-dependent Wizard spells would have to be utility. It could also include things like Booming Blade for a bit of added melee damage when needed, Mage Armor for increased AC, and Absorb Elements and Shield for defensive reactions. None of those rely on your INT stat.

(Even though all of those are available to a Sorcerer, it would free up your Sorcerer spells known for other spells that are CHA-dependent.)

Plus you'd have access to more rituals than Bard, including the ever-useful Find Familiar.

Hrmm that is an option yes. Though I do dislike the idea of having two - modifiers. specially one being wise with how often perception is totted about as a must have. I would not need mage armor. dragon Sorcerer already has the 13 natural AC. But again good point on being able to free up known spells for that kinda stuff. not sure I would be using booming blade, looking to end up with a lot more blaster stuff and avoid melee when possible. But yea.. the others are a good idea. The only worry is the tanking of a face stat ( wis) but suppose would just need to let others cover that weakness anyway while i just talk people into stuff, let others find out if they are lying to us . The more i look at the 1 lvl dip into wis the more I like it. Much less lost and much faster progression. Not to mention not a lot to worry about with the warlocks fiddly slots. though having 2 lvl 2 slots regen per short rest is a nice thought though. At this point I think you have talked me out of using bard for it all together. main thought with that was more or less add some skill monkey stuff to the mix.

[RogueJK]

Most importantly, a level in Wizard would mean you can scribe any and all 1st Level Wizard Ritual spells you can find or buy into your spellbook, allowing you access to the entire Wizard Ritual list for that level (if you can get your hands on all of them). Wizards are the only class that doesn't have to have Ritual spells Prepared in order to cast.

Whereas a Bard would be limited to just the few ritual spells they chose as their Spells Known from their Bard level(s), with no ability to scribe further Rituals acquired during their career.

[Segev]

Most importantly, a level in Wizard would mean you can scribe any and all 1st Level Ritual spells you can find or buy into your spellbook, allowing you access to the entire Wizard Ritual list for that level (if you can get your hands on all of them). Wizards are the only class that doesn't have to have Ritual spells Prepared in order to cast.

Whereas a Bard would be limited to just the few ritual spells they chose as their Spells Known from their Bard level(s), with no ability to scribe further Rituals acquired during their career.

The feat also doesn't require you to prep anything. The feat honestly seems like the best approach, here, since it doesn't require you to stop advancing sorcerer and doesn't cap your ritual spell level. Only Tomelock is more versatile (the feat requires you to pick a class whose spell list you get; Tomelocks can get any rituals they want), and it requires a THREE level dip. Admittedly, you can go demi-coffeelock at that point and extend your usefulness via short rests, though that way lies cheese.

[Sethcor]

The feat also doesn't require you to prep anything. The feat honestly seems like the best approach, here, since it doesn't require you to stop advancing sorcerer and doesn't cap your ritual spell level. Only Tomelock is more versatile (the feat requires you to pick a class whose spell list you get; Tomelocks can get any rituals they want), and it requires a THREE level dip. Admittedly, you can go demi-coffeelock at that point and extend your usefulness via short rests, though that way lies cheese.

Yea, the main reason I was looking at a tomelock was that it did not limit the class of rituals AND they can scribe them much like a wizard. that versatility is what is really appealing. to me. and yea. not sure I would do that even if the option is available, I have nothing against cheese, it is not always something I personally would enjoy doing.

[RogueJK]

Yep. That seems to be the main decision he's facing:

Either spend the ASI for Ritual Caster - Wizard and forego the 3x cantrips and 6x spells known. Or spend the level on Wizard and delay Sorcerer Features and Spells Known by 1 level, but keep the ASI to spend elsewhere and have greater cantrip/1st level spell versatility.

(Nearly all campaigns don't go to 20th level, but if it does, the 1 level Wizard dip also prevents getting Sorcerer Capstone of Sorcerous Restoration.

Either way, Feat or Level, he'll need to spend the stat points to get a 13 INT (or 13 WIS with the feat).

Spell Points are also a wash, since Wizard1's Arcane Recovery gives you the ability to regenerate a 1st level spell slot each day, which can be turned into 1 spell point for the equivalent number of spell points to match full Sorcerer progression.

[Sethcor]

Most importantly, a level in Wizard would mean you can scribe any and all 1st Level Wizard Ritual spells you can find or buy into your spellbook, allowing you access to the entire Wizard Ritual list for that level (if you can get your hands on all of them). Wizards are the only class that doesn't have to have Ritual spells Prepared in order to cast.

Whereas a Bard would be limited to just the few ritual spells they chose as their Spells Known from their Bard level(s), with no ability to scribe further Rituals acquired during their career.


I do not think the warlock rout would be needing to be prepared as it functions, at least to my understanding, like the wizards being it a book of rituals. But as i have said you have made a rather strong point for wizard all together.

[Segev]

Yep. That seems to be the main decision he's facing:

Either spend the ASI for Ritual Caster - Wizard and forego the 3x cantrips and 6x spells known. Or spend the level on Wizard and delay Sorcerer Features and Spells Known by 1 level, but keep the ASI to spend elsewhere and have greater cantrip/1st level spell versatility.

(Nearly all campaigns don't go to 20th level, but if it does, the 1 level Wizard dip also prevents getting Sorcerer Capstone of Sorcerous Restoration.

Either way, Feat or Level, he'll need to spend the stat points to get a 13 INT (or 13 WIS with the feat).

Spell Points are also a wash, since Wizard1's Arcane Recovery gives you the ability to regenerate a 1st level spell slot each day, which can be turned into 1 spell point for the equivalent number of spell points to match full Sorcerer progression.
A 1 level Wizard dip is very much an inferior option, especially since he wants some of the non-first-level rituals, specifically.

...and, actually, the Tomelock is level-locked to Warlock level for rituals he can cast, IIRC.

Go with the feat. It prevents you from having your class progression interrupted, gives you almost as much versatility as the Tomelock, and doesn't cap the level of ritual you can get by something you're going to multiclass away from.

[Chronos]

I'd say that the only reason to not go with the feat is if there's some ritual you really want that's not on the wizard list. The only ones that really stand out to me are the Augury/Divination/Commune line, but maybe there's something else you have your eye on.

But getting Divination or Commune is going to come at a very steep cost: Either a lot of levels in something, or giving up the non-cleric rituals. So mostly it just comes down to Augury, which you could get from three Warlock levels.

[Bloodcloud]

Yea, the main reason I was looking at a tomelock was that it did not limit the class of rituals AND they can scribe them much like a wizard. that versatility is what is really appealing. to me. and yea. not sure I would do that even if the option is available, I have nothing against cheese, it is not always something I personally would enjoy doing.

If tiny hut is what you are looking for, without investing any more than 3 levels, feat is the only option. Tomelock still needs 5 levels for that because you need access to 3rd level spells.

Book of Ancient Secrets
Prerequisite: Pact of the Tome feature

You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class's spell list (the two needn't be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don't count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag. On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell's level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it.

[Sethcor]

If tiny hut is what you are looking for, without investing any more than 3 levels, feat is the only option. Tomelock still needs 5 levels for that because you need access to 3rd level spells.

Book of Ancient Secrets
Prerequisite: Pact of the Tome feature

You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class's spell list (the two needn't be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don't count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can't cast the spells except as rituals, unless you've learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag. On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell's level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it.



Ahh yes I know, the thought was only one of commenting on another comment that suggested going 5 with tomelock. and So i stated the only ones above lvl 2 that would be of interest where those three i mentioned of lvl 3. I do suppose i do get rambly when i am thinking and typing on something.

[Urukubarr]

I personally like a divine soul variant human with ritual casting. its a really great boon to the party too, an lets not forget that divine soul sorcs can heal at range or twin cast heals. that can be pretty clutch.

[Sethcor]

I personally like a divine soul variant human with ritual casting. its a really great boon to the party too, an lets not forget that divine soul sorcs can heal at range or twin cast heals. that can be pretty clutch.

i have never liked playing a healer

[Sigreid]

Unless the class has other features you want the feat is very much your best deal.

[Ventruenox]

With an Arcana ability check of 10+ Spell level, that 1 level dip into Wizard would allow you to cast those higher level rituals from spell scrolls.

[Chronos]

But that defeats the entire purpose of them being rituals. The whole point of a ritual is that you can cast it all the time (if you don't have a monster breathing down your neck), not to cast it once ever and then have to go find a wizard academy or something before you can cast it again.

[Azgeroth]

take the feat.

if your 100% set on sorcerer, then the feat is the best option, a 1 level dip into wizard isn't really worth it, as others have mentioned you will never get any rituals higher than first, and it will delay your spells known progression of your sorcerer, though spell slot progression remains the same.

taking tome-lock, unless your planning on being alot of warlock, and little sorcerer, is again going to really upset the 'i am a sorcerer!' feel. it will seriously neuter your spell slots, your spells known will be all over the place, you do get 2 invocations, and CAN scribe any ritual into your book, but i cant remember ever finding a spell scroll, that was a ritual spell, that wasn't a wizard spell.. the occasional cleric spell sure, but never a druid or bard spell, and never a ritual. YMMV.

all told, take the feat. and i wouldnt even bother with elemental adept at level 1, your not going to encounter anything with elemental resistances in T1, maybe T2, but it isn't likely..

[Citan]

So i am looking at making a Scorer, and I am Kinda split on what i should do to acquire ritual caster. Thinking one of three ways, Via the feat, Though less inclined on this one. The other two could be tome lock or via a bard and likely going lore for some extra bits there. The bard would give more spells known, but the ability to copy a lot of different rituals seems tempting.
Hi!

The important question is: would you rather stay single-class?
If so, pick Ritual Caster: Bard or Wizard: I'd suggest Bard in fact: although there are many less rituals available, you still get the important Leomund's Tiny Hut and Comprehend Languages, but also Speak With Animals (unless you are not into manipulating animals, this is wonders), Silence, Detect Magic and Magic Mouth.
If, though, those "exclusive" are not appealing to you, Wizard is definitely the better choice simply because far larger list.

If you would like to multiclass (forget about 1-level dips, it's not worth except in Life Cleric), then it's simple.
If you otherwise like Bard for your concept because of everything it provides as a class, go Bard. You can even grab Ritual Caster later if for some unknown reason you'd feel missing.
Otherwise, Hexblade Tome Warlock 3-5 is by very far the best options. You get better AC, better cantrip, short-rest slots (Spirit Guardians if Divine, Fireball/Haste/Slow/Hypnotic Pattern etc), 5 new cantrips to spare slots and potentially all rituals.

Even just stopping at Warlock 3 (2nd level rituals) is still very, very cool. :)