Suffocation cantrip?

[Unoriginal]

Would you consider a Concentration spell that let the caster make one creature suffocate be weak enough to be a cantrip?

I feel like there's enough downsides (notably how many rounds a D&D character can spend not breathing) to justify making it a cantrip, if the target get a CON save to avoid being affected.

[sophontteks]

That's a bit OP out of combat, which is where one would use it. It'd be extremely OP with subtle spell.

[MilkmanDanimal]

That's a bit OP out of combat, which is where one would use it. It'd be extremely OP with subtle spell.

Give the spell a visible effect, link a line of energy between the caster and victim. That way subtle really doesn't help, and there's a visible indicator as to who to whack to stop it. 1d6 damage, CON save every turn to shrug off effect, requires action and concentration to maintain. I'd say that would work cantrip-wise.

[Lord Torath]

2E AD&D had a second-level Arcane (Wizard) spell called Choke, which did something similar. This spell/cantrip is exceedingly effective at shutting down casters, most of whom need to speak to cast.

[Unoriginal]

2E AD&D had a second-level Arcane (Wizard) spell called Choke, which did something similar. This spell/cantrip is exceedingly effective at shutting down casters, most of whom need to speak to cast.

Good point. I was thinking of preventing from breathing, not talking, because if it does then it might as well be called "Silence, but also damage" or something like that.

Well I'm glad I asked people.

[Kadesh]

Yeah, seems okay. Make it short range (30ft, or even touch) so it's not a complete anticaster spell?

[MilkmanDanimal]

Yeah, seems okay. Make it short range (30ft, or even touch) so it's not a complete anticaster spell?

If it's a cantrip, there's no way I'm going to have it prevent verbal components; the victim can still gasp for enough air to talk or cast spells. Damage + essentially a free Silence spell? Way too much from a cantrip.

[Kadesh]

Suffocation relies on being able to hold your breath. If you expel the air you need to talk or utter a verbal component, it is going to bring onset quicker than if you didn't.

It isn't preventing Verbal Components at all. Just making them risky. Plus with a 30ft short range, you can just move out of the range.

You're crying over nothing here mate.

[OvisCaedo]

I feel like even with caveats, suffocation is just... WAY too potent of an effect to be on a cantrip, unless you're throwing on so many caveats that it's no longer actually suffocation based. Note that there's a BIG difference between how long a creature can deliberately hold their breath for and how long it takes for "surprise, you have no air!" to just kill them outright.

[Rukelnikov]

Suffocation relies on being able to hold your breath. If you expel the air you need to talk or utter a verbal component, it is going to bring onset quicker than if you didn't.

It isn't preventing Verbal Components at all. Just making them risky. Plus with a 30ft short range, you can just move out of the range.

You're crying over nothing here mate.

Nah, he's rite, many a time you're in an enclosed location were "moving 30 ft. away" would require beating the brute that's blocking the door.

The only way I can see it being a cantrip is if it required your action every turn to maintain, kinda like witch bolt.

[Unoriginal]

Nah, he's rite, many a time you're in an enclosed location were "moving 30 ft. away" would require beating the brute that's blocking the door.

The only way I can see it being a cantrip is if it required your action every turn to maintain, kinda like witch bolt.


If it's a cantrip, there's no way I'm going to have it prevent verbal components; the victim can still gasp for enough air to talk or cast spells. Damage + essentially a free Silence spell? Way too much from a cantrip.


I feel like even with caveats, suffocation is just... WAY too potent of an effect to be on a cantrip, unless you're throwing on so many caveats that it's no longer actually suffocation based. Note that there's a BIG difference between how long a creature can deliberately hold their breath for and how long it takes for "surprise, you have no air!" to just kill them outright.

Those are the rules on suffocation:



A creature can hold its breath for a number of minutes equal to 1 + its Constitution modifier (minimum of 30 seconds).

When a creature runs out of breath or is choking, it can survive for a number of rounds equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum of 1 round). At the start of its next turn, it drops to 0 hit points and is dying, and it can't regain hit points or be stabilized until it can breathe again.

It takes a long time before not being able to breath affect you.

[Kadesh]

If you're using it on the Brute with a Str Save and decent Con Score in the hopes of stopping him from talking a d then spend 4 rounds or waiting 4 minutes for him to start taking sure, you knock yourself out.

A Concentration Spell requiring you to be within 30ft (and thus move and attack range- or even touch if you want to be completely make it worthless) of a caster who can take a 5 or 10ft step back to be out of range and end the spells effect and not be badly affected is okay, but not overwhelming.

Perhaps if you can buddy up with a Booming Blade Rogue but by that stage, you've got a wizard in attack range, risking opportunity attack of a Rogue and shouldn't be lasting the 3 rounds it takes to drop them.

You are overstating it.

[OvisCaedo]

Those are the rules on suffocation:



It takes a long time before not being able to breath affect you.

I'm curious, how is it you're imagining this spell to function exactly on like, an in-universe mechanical level? What's the spell doing exactly to deprive a person of breath? Because yeah, it's pretty reasonable if the spell is manifesting in a way that assumes they're going to be treated as if they're holding their breath, but I'm not sure what the effect would be TO treat it like that.

[Kadesh]

I'm curious, how is it you're imagining this spell to function exactly on like, an in-universe mechanical level? What's the spell doing exactly to deprive a person of breath? Because yeah, it's pretty reasonable if the spell is manifesting in a way that assumes they're going to be treated as if they're holding their breath, but I'm not sure what the effect would be TO treat it like that.

'Mage Pillow'

[Kane0]

Choke

Transmutation Cantrip
Casting Time 1 action
Range 30 feet
Components V, S
Duration Concentration, up to one minute

One creature you can see makes a Constitution save or begin choking, being unable to breathe. While choking a creature must succeed on a Concentration check in order to successfully speak, including the Verbal components of spells.

Duration increases by one minute at levels 5, 11 and 17

Note that this is a 'start holding breath con mod minutes' choke not a 'Run out of breath, con mod rounds'

[OvisCaedo]

'Mage Pillow'

Yyyeah, that sounds more like something that instantly cuts off air flow without really giving them the effects of having taken deliberate precautions to hold their breath.

Side question: If you'd like to implement this kind of cantrip, would you also be planning on putting in accessible chokehold rules for martials/grapplers?

EDIT: the example cantrip posted above me seems reasonable, but is also more of a "restricted" breathing effect rather than one that actually cuts it off. Which is fair, and I think what would make sense for this sort of thing to be!

[LibraryOgre]

So, my mental image of this spell:

You throw a lasso of light around the person's neck. This requires a touch attack, and they get a Constitution save to resist. You have to maintain concentration long enough to strangle them.

This is several points of failure... enough, IMO, that it becomes highly marginal to cast.

[sophontteks]

So, my mental image of this spell:

You throw a lasso of light around the person's neck. This requires a touch attack, and they get a Constitution save to resist. You have to maintain concentration long enough to strangle them.

This is several points of failure... enough, IMO, that it becomes highly marginal to cast.
Can they still cast V spells while being strangled?

[LibraryOgre]

Can they still cast V spells while being strangled?

I'd say so; otherwise, as mentioned, it becomes way too powerful.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Choke

Transmutation Cantrip
Casting Time 1 action
Range 30 feet
Components V, S
Duration Concentration, up to one minute

One creature you can see makes a Constitution save or begin choking, being unable to breathe. While choking a creature must succeed on a Concentration check in order to successfully speak, including the Verbal components of spells.

Duration increases by one minute at levels 5, 11 and 17

Note that this is a 'start holding breath con mod minutes' choke not a 'Run out of breath, con mod rounds'
Something along those lines is probably the best you'd get, yeah. The problem with choking is that it's an all-or-nothing proposition: either it's fast enough to be useful in combat (and hence wildly overpowered for a cantrip), or it takes minutes to work (and hence is virtually useless).

[sophontteks]

I'd say so; otherwise, as mentioned, it becomes way too powerful.
Maybe.

I mean, it makes sense. I'm big on the RP and this one would be really hard to explain. Like "Well I know you are choking the person with a lasso of light, but they can still speak just fine." That's not going down well.

But is it that bad to have a concentration cantrip deny V? This may be the cantrips primary purpose with asphyxiation being a bit of a pipe dream.

EDIT: I'd say this would be great on something like an EK, but if he chokes something at touch range with a spell, wouldn't the barbarian just be like "Yeah, well, I'll do the same thing with my hands."

[Kadesh]

Yyyeah, that sounds more like something that instantly cuts off air flow without really giving them the effects of having taken deliberate precautions to hold their breath.

Side question: If you'd like to implement this kind of cantrip, would you also be planning on putting in accessible chokehold rules for martials/grapplers?

EDIT: the example cantrip posted above me seems reasonable, but is also more of a "restricted" breathing effect rather than one that actually cuts it off. Which is fair, and I think what would make sense for this sort of thing to be!

If I'm doing homebrew, then I'm clearly open to homebrew options.

That said, the rules say you can hold your breath when you're being suffocated. The assumption is that unless you specifically tell me you're not holding your breath (such as by shouting, or making a verbal component spell), or you're being choked (something I'd probably okay with a grapple check at disadvantage as a quick guesstimate) - then I'd assume that you'd have the 1+Con Mod Minutes.

[Mjolnirbear]

Suffocation and chokeholds are different.

Suffocation prevents air from getting into your lungs. It's brutally painful and causes hemorrhaging in the eyes. If you are suffocating from hanging or strangulation, there is the risk of permanent damage to the trachea. You cannot at all speak if you cannot breathe. If you can speak you are breathing enough to survive.

A chokehold is what you see in action movies. This kind of choke is relatively benign. While there are chokes that are also strangleholds, I'll be using this term to mean the kind of choke that compresses the carotid artery and causes the brain to shut down. There are known dangers to this hold: memery loss, coma, brain damage, or death, which are the risks of an oxygen-starved brain. These chokeholds are common in judo tournament and no one has yet died, but the risks of long-term repeats being subject to this hold are unknown.

I have both this choke and a garrotte in my games. They both require a surprised or restrained opponents and both hands. They both can suffer complications. They are story attacks, not combat moves. The choke only cause unconsciousness. The garrotte also suffocates and risks bleeding to death from a crushed windpipe.

So which one does your cantrip replicate? A lasso is like a garrotte. It damages the trachea and a target of this cantrip absolutely cannot speak while strangled, and possibly can't speak after. If you want the best chances of survival, you need the chokehold version.

[Vogie]

Since it's a

cantrip
that isn't dealing damage
but still has the possibility to kill or render a breathing creature unconscious...
While not being incredibly broken with Subtle Spell

I'd do something like a deadly smoothie version of Mage Hand, Compelled Duel and Contagion:


Suffocate
Conjuration: Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute

You extend your arm and use your action to create a spectral, grasping hand at the throat of target creature you can see to choke them, forcing them to pass a Constitution save. While Concentrating on this spell, you can't use the arm you extended for any other purpose. If they fail, they must pass a Constitution save to breathe, speak, including supplying verbal spell components, or move more than 30 feet from you.

At the beginning of each of the target's turns, it makes a Constitution save as they struggle to breathe.

If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer choking, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, they are rendered Unconscious.

[Kadesh]

Suffocation and chokeholds are different.

Suffocation prevents air from getting into your lungs. It's brutally painful and causes hemorrhaging in the eyes. If you are suffocating from hanging or strangulation, there is the risk of permanent damage to the trachea. You cannot at all speak if you cannot breathe. If you can speak you are breathing enough to survive.

A chokehold is what you see in action movies. This kind of choke is relatively benign. While there are chokes that are also strangleholds, I'll be using this term to mean the kind of choke that compresses the carotid artery and causes the brain to shut down. There are known dangers to this hold: memery loss, coma, brain damage, or death, which are the risks of an oxygen-starved brain. These chokeholds are common in judo tournament and no one has yet died, but the risks of long-term repeats being subject to this hold are unknown.

I have both this choke and a garrotte in my games. They both require a surprised or restrained opponents and both hands. They both can suffer complications. They are story attacks, not combat moves. The choke only cause unconsciousness. The garrotte also suffocates and risks bleeding to death from a crushed windpipe.

So which one does your cantrip replicate? A lasso is like a garrotte. It damages the trachea and a target of this cantrip absolutely cannot speak while strangled, and possibly can't speak after. If you want the best chances of survival, you need the chokehold version.

"Guy at the gym" isn't necessarily needed for an abstract. For a game that allows climbing a tree to use the same roll as swimming, or how a grapple of any kind reduces movement to 0, making the differentiation between various kinds of chokeholds irrelevant.

5E is hardly simulationary.

[Ganymede]

It takes a long time before not being able to breath affect you.

Generally, but that's only if you're holding your breath.

This spell could be devastating on spellcasters as casting a spell with a verbal component prevents you from holding your breath and puts you on a very short timer (maybe only one round) before being put in the dying state. Similarly, normal speech and breath weapons would also be incredibly risky to use.

I would absolutely not allow this as a cantrip.

[Kadesh]

Generally, but that's only if you're holding your breath.

This spell could be devastating on spellcasters as casting a spell with a verbal component prevents you from holding your breath and puts you on a very short timer (maybe only one round) before being put in the dying state. Similarly, normal speech and breath weapons would also be incredibly risky to use.

I would absolutely not allow this as a cantrip.

Suffocation assumes you are holding your breath until you say you're not.

[OvisCaedo]

If people are automatically holding their breath, that's fine, I'm just not sure whether or not that's actually the default assumption of the rules. I know there's a trap in ToA that just teleports you into an airless box, and says that unless you somehow had the mystical foresight to know exactly this was going to happen and take the precaution of holding your breath in advance, you're just automatically at the actual suffocation part of the time limit. Rounds to live.

Of course, this cantrip is being deliberately homebrewed to try to be reasonable, so sure, you can say they're holding their breath automatically. But what's the point of it meant to be, exactly? A single-target "silence"?

[Ganymede]

Suffocation assumes you are holding your breath until you say you're not.

Nowhere in my previous post did I indicate otherwise; a creature holds its breath until it stops holding its breath. If you explicitly say "My PC stops holding his breath," that creature is no longer holding its breath. The same is true if you do so implicitly, such as by having your PC talk, cast a spell with a verbal component, or forcefully exhale (whether to release a breath weapon or to blow out a candle).

There is absolutely no ambiguity here. Crawford is on record saying: "No rule prohibits verbal components from working underwater. Keep in mind that if you're talking, you're not holding your breath."

[Kadesh]

In which we go full circle into why you think that it relevant? You have to be in melee range, using a Concentration Spell, to penalizd the caster from using verbal components or else risk falling unconscious - unless it moves perhaps 10ft away and the spell ends.

Man, you wilding.

[Ganymede]

That might have been a bit abrupt, but please don't bow up for no good reason.

[Mjolnirbear]

"Guy at the gym" isn't necessarily needed for an abstract. For a game that allows climbing a tree to use the same roll as swimming, or how a grapple of any kind reduces movement to 0, making the differentiation between various kinds of chokeholds irrelevant.

5E is hardly simulationary.

Of course it simulates. It simulates combat, it simulates various actions, it simulates taking damage and unconsciousness and death. It simulates, but doesn't replicate. It simulates, but isn't realistic.

Verisimilitude matters to many people, even in games where dragons can fly and breathe fire and wizards reshape reality at a whim.

More importantly my explanation is a guide. I'm not suggesting he implement changes, only offering insight on deciding what he wants out of his cantrip. Does he want a mini-sleep or deadly weapon? Either can use suffocation rules. But the intent matters to many people.

Making it require surprise or restrained is an easy way to nerf it. Making it require both hands works similarly. Both may or may not appeal to him depending on what he wants out of his spell. Clarifying what he wants helps guide the creative process, and as I tend to value Verisimilitude that's how I presented it.

It's not up to you to decide if my feedback is valuable. It's up to him.

Enjoy your day.