Debating which VMC route to go with for this character.

[tadkins]

I was planning out a Void-Touched Bloodline Sorcerer with either the VMC Alchemist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/#Alchemist) option or the VMC Witch (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement/#Witch).

Battle-wise, he would specialize in teleportation spells and battlefield control, which goes well with the Sorcerer part. I also want to give him a focus on alchemy and potion crafting, which is the reason for one of the VMC options. RP-wise, he would be a dark cosmic traveler, at one with the power of the Void, seeking to touch the very edges of the universe. And, after all, that sort of traveler should be well stocked and prepared for all the dangers of the universe, and being able to make your own potions (and supply them to a party) would help greatly, right?

I'm torn between the two options.
-On one hand the Alchemist comes with some straight-up bonuses to Craft (Alchemy). I'm not entirely sure how much I would use the other class abilities listed there but they seem like they'd be useful to have. The name alone would set the character concept in stone.
-On the other though, I could go with the Witch route and use my hexes on things like Cauldron and Witch's Brew, options that would make my character look like a master of potions type character. I could also take up the Entropy Patron and add even more Void-ish flavor to the character.

At this point I'm just looking at which one might be plain better for a sorcerer, with this concept. Thoughts?

[Eldonauran]

In the long run, Witch would be a better VMC option for your character. Unless you are taking the Sage bloodline in addition (via crossblooded) to get your Intelligence to spellcasting, neither option is going to get much use of the their abilities as both the Alchemist and Witch use intelligence (Alchemist for bombs and Witch for Hexes). Honestly, you are better of taking an actual level of Witch and getting more hexes with the Extra Hex feat.

My advice? Don't use either and take the level of Witch. I'd advise taking a different class entirely, but you didn't ask for that. If you wanted to know ...

Take Arcanist and use the Blood Arcanist archetype to get the Sorcerer bloodline you want. This gives you Int based spontaneous casting, with exploits on the side (runs off charisma) and then take VMC Alchemist. You would get much more mileage out of that combo. If you think you have feats to spare at that point and you REALLY want hexes, dip a level of Witch and spend feats on extra hex.

There is a prestige class called Stargazer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/stargazer/) that requires a specific set of alignments (and worship of a particular deity) that gives Hexes, the Star Domain, some oracle revelations related to stars, and 'sidereel arcanas' that might interest you but it will interrupt your bloodline progressions You can take a single level to get a (witch) hex and then use Extra Hex feats. Up to you.

[tadkins]

My advice? Don't use either and take the level of Witch. I'd advise taking a different class entirely, but you didn't ask for that. If you wanted to know ...

I'd prefer to stick with Sorcerer as I'm not comfortable RPing with an INT-based caster, but I still want to play in the world of magic. I also considered taking that one level of Witch but losing out on the potential level 20 Sorcerer capstone would hurt. xD

[Eldonauran]

Well, to be quite frank (and don't think I am dismissing your preferences out of hand, I am not) the capstone for the Starsoul bloodline is not all that great. "Starborn (Ex): At 20th level, you gain immunity to cold and blindness, and you can see perfectly in natural or magical darkness. In addition, you gain fast healing 1 when you are outdoors at night."

Perhaps you could try the Ley-Line Guardian (http://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Witch%20Ley%20Line %20Guardian) Witch archetype (becomes a spontaneous caster, like the sorcerer) and see if your DM will allow you to use Charisma as a casting stat (the 1st level hex replacement runs off of Charisma, so it wouldn't be unrealistic). If this is possible, you can take VMC Sorcerer for the bloodline, or take VMC Alchemist and spend your feats on the Eldritch Heritage feat lines to pick up bloodline abilities.

[Geddy2112]

I agree that overall VMC witch is far stronger than alchemist, for the familiar alone. Hexes also have exponentially greater use than bombs, mutagens or poison use.

You could also just spend a feat on brew potion and max out ranks in craft(alchemy). If you are going witch, the witch's brew or cook people major hexes are pretty cool thematically, but they are meh for a 19th level pseudo capstone. Witches bottle is pretty meh, as you turn potions into mild buffs which you can otherwise spam at will and with only one other hex(cauldron) you can't even really use it.

[tadkins]

Well, to be quite frank (and don't think I am dismissing your preferences out of hand, I am not) the capstone for the Starsoul bloodline is not all that great. "Starborn (Ex): At 20th level, you gain immunity to cold and blindness, and you can see perfectly in natural or magical darkness. In addition, you gain fast healing 1 when you are outdoors at night."

Perhaps you could try the Ley-Line Guardian (http://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Witch%20Ley%20Line %20Guardian) Witch archetype (becomes a spontaneous caster, like the sorcerer) and see if your DM will allow you to use Charisma as a casting stat (the 1st level hex replacement runs off of Charisma, so it wouldn't be unrealistic). If this is possible, you can take VMC Sorcerer for the bloodline, or take VMC Alchemist and spend your feats on the Eldritch Heritage feat lines to pick up bloodline abilities.

Aye I know, and that's appreciated. :) The capstone is more thematic than anything, and IMO it's somewhat decent. It's just as much of a "hell you've gotten this far, why not go all the way?" sort of thing.

If a DM allowed me to play a Witch off of CHA instead of INT that'd be perfectly fine in of itself. The Witch class has just about everything I'd want actually. But I'd rather try and build something that isn't completely dependent on a DM's good graces. One DM might let it slide while another will give a firm No on it.


I agree that overall VMC witch is far stronger than alchemist, for the familiar alone. Hexes also have exponentially greater use than bombs, mutagens or poison use.

You could also just spend a feat on brew potion and max out ranks in craft(alchemy). If you are going witch, the witch's brew or cook people major hexes are pretty cool thematically, but they are meh for a 19th level pseudo capstone. Witches bottle is pretty meh, as you turn potions into mild buffs which you can otherwise spam at will and with only one other hex(cauldron) you can't even really use it.

For sure, at this point the VMC witch is looking more and more tempting. They get just about all the hexes I'd need for this character concept.

As far as just taking brew potion and Craft ranks go, I thought about that too but I wondered how effective of a potion brewer (as a sorcerer) if I only did that. Having Cauldron and Witch's Brew would really make the build sing I think.
Also Cook Person would be pretty damn awesome if it wasn't so evil. xD

I'd consider asking a DM if I could use a slightly less evil version of Cook Person. Maybe just something like "extreme culinary skills" that let me cook up delicious food using non-cannibalistic resources that give the same buffs. What would you guys think of that one?

[Florian]

At this point I'm just looking at which one might be plain better for a sorcerer, with this concept. Thoughts?

Thought 1: Oh no, not again!

Thought 2: Neither. You're thinking about it too complicated. Max ranks in Alchemy and the Brew Potion feat are enough for what you want to achieve.

[tadkins]

Thought 1: Oh no, not again!

I know, I know...lol. I'm this close to cracking it though I swear. xD
With luck my next crazy rambling post will be about an entirely different character idea.

Edit: True story, I almost didn't ask about it here. I felt so bad asking again that I instead signed up for Reddit for the first time and posted it there. The responses there gave me some confidence to go ahead with it here though.


Thought 2: Neither. You're thinking about it too complicated. Max ranks in Alchemy and the Brew Potion feat are enough for what you want to achieve.
Wouldn't I be a better potions master with those Witch hexes though? Figured if I'm gonna stick to a concept I should go full hog into them. I don't think a full class Sorcerer + a VMC class would be too much to handle.

[Florian]

Wouldn't I be a better potions master with those Witch hexes though? Figured if I'm gonna stick to a concept I should go full hog into them. I don't think a full class Sorcerer + a VMC class would be too much to handle.

Using VMC will not let you access their full spell list, so you're already restricted to your regular spells known as sorcerer. You're sacrificing half of your total standard feats for basically wanting to have only one very specific feat instead.

[tadkins]

Using VMC will not let you access their full spell list, so you're already restricted to your regular spells known as sorcerer. You're sacrificing half of your total standard feats for basically wanting to have only one very specific feat instead.

Ah, yeah that's true. I didn't think about that. The Witch spell list is far more conductive to potion brewing as they have access to healing spells.

Hrm...

I guess my only option is to somehow get over my fear of INT-based spellcasters, lol.