Keeping that flying mount alive (and you in the air)

[Segev]

In the "teamwork" thread, I brought up flying mounts as my preferred means for non-mages to get flying at...if not cheap, then at least story-cost prices. (Few if any are available on the open market, but you can probably talk your DM into a quest to find one in particular, and/or have Handle Animal and be prepared to pounce (metaphorically, if not mechanically) when the DM inevitably pits you against flying monsters that are suitable for riding.)

However, even with the exotic saddle, the Ride skill, and the mount itself, it remains probably more vulnerable (lower hp and AC, not to mention saves) than you are, and is inevitably bigger than you, both of which make it a more attractive target. And if it's killed out from under you, you go plummetting. Now, there are ways to make that not kill you (one-shot use-activated feather fall items, for instance), but you're still out a mount and probably out of the fight, and need to go find a new mount to replace it. Frustrating, to say the least.

Obvious ways to help protect it include barding and a saddle blanket of resistance (refluffed cloak). But if you're not a caster, and are already shelling out for your own protective item suite, what else can you do to keep it alive? Mounted Combat will protect it from one attack per round. And won't do a thing to spells. A pair of Rings of Friend Shield will at least let you cut its damage in half, though that's also quite expensive at 50,000 gp.

So, without bankrupting yourself by buying stuff for two characters, how does a non-caster (i.e. the most likely sort to want a flying mount) keep their flying mount alive through all the combats he, himself, has to survive?

[Troacctid]

Use a broom/carpet of flying instead of a creature. Nobody ever attacks items, and they're unaffected by most AoEs.

[Segev]

Use a broom/carpet of flying instead of a creature. Nobody ever attacks items, and they're unaffected by most AoEs.

Carpet's still very expensive. 17,000 gp for the Broom is pretty reasonable, though. Still pricey for a 5th-10th level character, but not impossible while still having other gear.

Nothing PREVENTS people from targeting either. That is a weird psychological thing that DMs won't, but would target the critters.

Still, the question remains: how do you protect a flying mount, if you go that route instead of a magic item?

[Anthrowhale]

You can avoid the premise (lower hp / AC / maybe saves) by purchasing the services of a dragon. This is detailed in Draconomicon. The price is high but not infeasible---I remember 500 gp/hd for a year but am AFB.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The only thing I can think of is finding a mount with a template of some sort.

Maybe Magebred or Warbeast?

The only other thing I can come up with its to obtain an extremely powerful mount, but doing that without spellcasting would be... difficult.

[Segev]

The only thing I can think of is finding a mount with a template of some sort.

Maybe Magebred or Warbeast?

The only other thing I can come up with its to obtain an extremely powerful mount, but doing that without spellcasting would be... difficult.Yeah, powerful mounts are one way to go about it. "Classic" mounts include pegasi, hippogriffs, and gryphons, but those aren't exactly powerful.

Hm. I think a false life command-activated item would be 12,000 gp, which is still awfully expensive, but it'd be at least a few temp hp you could keep up with an action at a time.


You can avoid the premise (lower hp / AC / maybe saves) by purchasing the services of a dragon. This is detailed in Draconomicon. The price is high but not infeasible---I remember 500 gp/hd for a year but am AFB.

Huh. I'll have to look that up when I can get to my book. THat sounds...cheap for what it is, but probably still very expensive. I wonder what the terms are.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, powerful mounts are one way to go about it. "Classic" mounts include pegasi, hippogriffs, and gryphons, but those aren't exactly powerful.

In deed.


Hm. I think a false life command-activated item would be 12,000 gp, which is still awfully expensive, but it'd be at least a few temp hp you could keep up with an action at a time.

Maybe a dip in Duskblade combined with an Eternal Wand would be a better idea?


Huh. I'll have to look that up when I can get to my book. THat sounds...cheap for what it is, but probably still very expensive. I wonder what the terms are.

I just checked the book, it's on page 138 of Draconomicon and it is indeed 500 gp/HD per year. But it has to be paid in advance.

EDIT: And it sounds like a Diplomacy check is involved.

[Troacctid]

Nothing PREVENTS people from targeting either. That is a weird psychological thing that DMs won't, but would target the critters.
Au contraire, sundering an attended object is significantly more cumbersome than attacking a creature. It provokes an attack of opportunity and there are restrictions on the kinds of weapons you can use to do it.

[Anthrowhale]

I just checked the book, it's on page 138 of Draconomicon and it is indeed 500 gp/HD per year. But it has to be paid in advance.

EDIT: And it sounds like a Diplomacy check is involved.

That's what I recall. The lowest HD large dragon is a "Very Young" Red at 10HD, CR 5, 95hp, AC 18, Fort 10, Refl 5, Will 8. At 5000gp is feasible by character level 6 and probably an acceptable price at character level 8.

Small characters can ride a medium dragon for which a Wyrmling Red has only 7HD, CR 4, 59hp, AC 16, Fort 7, Refl 5, Will 5. 3500gp is feasibly by character level 5 and probably acceptable at character level 7.

The diplomacy check is presumably particularly important as 'get eaten' is an outcome and paying an extra 500gp to get a lawful good gold instead of a chaotic evil red seems like a very wise investment.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Au contraire, sundering an attended object is significantly more cumbersome than attacking a creature. It provokes an attack of opportunity and there are restrictions on the kinds of weapons you can use to do it.

The real reason you don't see sunder used is because PCs don't want to destroy their own loot and it's cruel and unusual when the DM does it.


That's what I recall. The lowest HD large dragon is a "Very Young" Red at 10HD, CR 5, 95hp, AC 18, Fort 10, Refl 5, Will 8. At 5000gp is feasible by character level 6 and probably an acceptable price at character level 8.

Small characters can ride a medium dragon for which a Wyrmling Red has only 7HD, CR 4, 59hp, AC 16, Fort 7, Refl 5, Will 5. 3500gp is feasibly by character level 5 and probably acceptable at character level 7.

So, getting a dragon seems to be the best choice for a mount.


The diplomacy check is presumably particularly important as 'get eaten' is an outcome and paying an extra 500gp to get a lawful good gold instead of a chaotic evil red seems like a very wise investment.

Taking a Martial Study: (insert White Raven Maneuver here) would probably be a good idea.

[Segev]

The real reason you don't see sunder used is because PCs don't want to destroy their own loot and it's cruel and unusual when the DM does it.So, why does this not apply to a flying mount? Or a mount in general?


So, getting a dragon seems to be the best choice for a mount.That's remarkably surprising. Dragons are awesome, but doing it via hireling just...never seems to come up.

[ColorBlindNinja]

So, why does this not apply to a flying mount? Or a mount in general?

It could. I guess it depends on your DM.

It's also a lot easier to kill a mount by accident. Caught in the range of Blasphemy, maybe an AoE spell, ect.


That's remarkably surprising. Dragons are awesome, but doing it via hireling just...never seems to come up.

I honestly never knew it was an option until now.

[Segev]

It could. I guess it depends on your DM.

It's also a lot easier to kill a mount by accident. Caught in the range of Blasphemy, maybe an AoE spell, ect.Fair. Honestly, we probably need a few feats or the like that let riders "cover" mounts like they do attended items.


I honestly never knew it was an option until now.Me, neither, and I actually have read the Draconomicon many times. ^^;

[ColorBlindNinja]

Fair. Honestly, we probably need a few feats or the like that let riders "cover" mounts like they do attended items.

Mounted combat isn't something I'm super well versed in, unfortunately.


Me, neither, and I actually have read the Draconomicon many times. ^^;

One of the things I do like about 3.5 is that I'm always learning new things. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

The real reason you don't see sunder used is because PCs don't want to destroy their own loot and it's cruel and unusual when the DM does it.
I disagree. I think it's just a poor strategy most of the time. You need two feats in order to do it without provoking, and even then, sundering a +1 weapon often requires you to deal upwards of 30 damage in a single hit, which is difficult for most enemies to achieve. Maybe you could sunder other magic items, but while it's a lovely way to spite them in the long-term, it typically provides very little advantage in the context of a single combat, and is unlikely to be worth an action—plus, unless you have something like arcane sight, it may be difficult to identify which items are magical in the first place, and you'll look really stupid if you waste your attack sundering an ordinary hat because you thought it was an admiral's bicorne.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I disagree. I think it's just a poor strategy most of the time.

Which I already said it was.


You need two feats in order to do it without provoking,

No, all you need is reach.


and even then, sundering a +1 weapon often requires you to deal upwards of 30 damage in a single hit, which is difficult for most enemies to achieve.

:smallconfused:

Since when?

What level range are we even talking about?

EDIT: I doubt it's that hard for a monster to deal 30+ damage at all but the lowest levels.


Maybe you could sunder other magic items, but while it's a lovely way to spite them in the long-term, it typically provides very little advantage in the context of a single combat, and is unlikely to be worth an action—plus, unless you have something like arcane sight, it may be difficult to identify which items are magical in the first place, and you'll look really stupid if you waste your attack sundering an ordinary hat because you thought it was an admiral's bicorne.

Agreed, if you sunder, you sunder weapons. Maybe armor.

[RaiKirah]

Well, if you use the Shugenja only spell When Two Become One then you become the mount and you/it get the benefit of your class skills, spells, and combined feats...you also end up as a horse (the spell specifies horse, which can be made into a strong mount with some effort) with a human/(insert race here) shaped tumor on its back, so there's that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, if you use the Shugenja only spell When Two Become One then you become the mount and you/it get the benefit of your class skills, spells, and combined feats...you also end up as a horse (the spell specifies horse, which can be made into a strong mount with some effort) with a human/(insert race here) shaped tumor on its back, so there's that.

The problem I see with that is that you have to be a spellcaster.

Neat spell, though. :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

:smallconfused:

Since when?

What level range are we even talking about?

EDIT: I doubt it's that hard for a monster to deal 30+ damage at all but the lowest levels.
The hard part isn't doing 30+ damage, it's doing it in a single hit. Humanoid enemies typically don't have Strength scores high enough to achieve that without a hefty Power Attack, and monsters often rely on natural weapons, which take a -4 penalty on the opposed attack roll.

[Crake]

Agreed, if you sunder, you sunder weapons. Maybe armor.

I thought you couldn't sunder armor?


Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

[...]

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object

You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.


The hard part isn't doing 30+ damage, it's doing it in a single hit. Humanoid enemies typically don't have Strength scores high enough to achieve that without a hefty Power Attack, and monsters often rely on natural weapons, which take a -4 penalty on the opposed attack roll.

Why's it need to be in a single hit? If you damage the item, you can sunder it again and break it the second hit around.

Also, the damage you'd need to sunder a broom is only about 10, 5 for the hardness of wood, 5 for the hp of a broom's shaft.

As for the topic at hand. I think the best route would be to have your mount advance with you via the leadership feat, or dragon cohort feat if you want to go down that route.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I thought you couldn't sunder armor?

I wasn't aware you couldn't. Because I've never used sunder. :smallsmile:

[remetagross]

Well, if you use the Shugenja only spell When Two Become One then you become the mount and you/it get the benefit of your class skills, spells, and combined feats...you also end up as a horse (the spell specifies horse, which can be made into a strong mount with some effort) with a human/(insert race here) shaped tumor on its back, so there's that.

There was a RAW but completely crazy idea suggested by daremetodareyo (who else? :smallbiggrin:), who noticed that spell's wording allowed the PC to cast it repeatedly, with a new mount each time, and to fold into an intricated bunch of horses like a matryoshka. Given that the HPs are pooled each time the spell is cast, provided a Pegasus can count as a horse for the purpose of that spell, you could fold into something like a Heavy Warhorse (pretty cheap and easy to find) or a Horrid Horse (way tougher but way harder to get one's hands on) a couple times to gain 30 HPs each time (or 100 HPs with a Horrid Horse), before folding into the Pegasus. The short duration of 1 round/level is something to be mindful of, so bonus points if you get to Persist all those occurences of When Two Become One :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

You need X spells of Y level to attempt protecting a store-bought mount. You need 1 spell of 3rd level to fly for an entire fight or more, or 1 spell of 5th level to fly for a day. Magic item prices are based on how many spells of what level, and it's harder to keep things alive than it is to make them fly. So it's basically not going to work unless you fiat some cheese items.

Since this whole thing stems from hating on fighters for not playing "optimized" characters, I'm rather surprised that the main suggestion isn't "build a character that flies." (well someone probably said it but I'm barely checking any more). It costs one racial option and 0-2 feats depending on what quality you want, as long as you're willing to wait until the same level flight is supposedly necessary. It costs one feat for a scaling aerial mount if you're allowed Wild Cohort, or you can take one of the aerial mounted prestige classes.

I've put down prices for a bunch of "exotic" mounts that ought to be commonly bought and sold, since the Handle Animal skill doesn't actually care about what the word "domesticated" means and it's easy enough to hit the DCs to train them, including Hippogriffs (ECS already has mount-tier prices for Glidewings), and I've made a better general purpose aerial mount class for people that want to do that.

But as I already said in the other thread, flight isn't even necessary in the first place, so I see no reason to make it so cheap it actually becomes ubiquitous. Claiming that martial characters need flight to function is a direct slap in the face to anyone who doesn't want to play that sort of character. If the caster won't cast Fly, and the non-casters don't want to take care of mounts or spend big piles of money on flight items, then the DM is just going to have to stop making encounters that require flight. Which is easy, because most monsters don't.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You need X spells of Y level to attempt protecting a store-bought mount. You need 1 spell of 3rd level to fly for an entire fight or more, or 1 spell of 5th level to fly for a day. Magic item prices are based on how many spells of what level, and it's harder to keep things alive than it is to make them fly. So it's basically not going to work unless you fiat some cheese items.

Getting a dragon mount seems to work. Bonus points for being awesome. :smallsmile:


Since this whole thing stems from hating on fighters for not playing "optimized" characters,

Um no, it's finding the Fighter a method of flight that doesn't rely on another PC.

Being immune to AMF is a plus.


I'm rather surprised that the main suggestion isn't "build a character that flies." (well someone probably said it but I'm barely checking any more). It costs one racial option and 0-2 feats depending on what quality you want, as long as you're willing to wait until the same level flight is supposedly necessary. It costs one feat for a scaling aerial mount if you're allowed Wild Cohort, or you can take one of the aerial mounted prestige classes.

To be sure that'd work as well. But the premise of this thread was protecting flying mounts.


I've put down prices for a bunch of "exotic" mounts that ought to be commonly bought and sold, since the Handle Animal skill doesn't actually care about what the word "domesticated" means and it's easy enough to hit the DCs to train them, including Hippogriffs (ECS already has mount-tier prices for Glidewings), and I've made a better general purpose aerial mount class for people that want to do that.

Or pay a dragon 500 GP/HD for a year.


But as I already said in the other thread, flight isn't even necessary in the first place, so I see no reason to make it so cheap it actually becomes ubiquitous.

So what do you do if you fight a flying monster with DR?


Claiming that martial characters need flight to function is a direct slap in the face to anyone who doesn't want to play that sort of character.

Then you can't complain when you can't fly.


If the caster won't cast Fly, and the non-casters don't want to take care of mounts or spend big piles of money on flight items, then the DM is just going to have to stop making encounters that require flight. Which is easy, because most monsters don't.

Why should the DM do that?

Maybe the DM is including more flying enemies to see if his/her PCs can counter them properly.

[DrMotives]

Carpet's still very expensive. 17,000 gp for the Broom is pretty reasonable, though. Still pricey for a 5th-10th level character, but not impossible while still having other gear.


An ornithopter (A&EG, p. 54) is even cheaper, at a mere 4k. It's a da Vinci flying machine, or a magic flappy hang glider if you'd rather.

[RaiKirah]

There was a RAW but completely crazy idea suggested by daremetodareyo (who else? :smallbiggrin:), who noticed that spell's wording allowed the PC to cast it repeatedly, with a new mount each time, and to fold into an intricated bunch of horses like a matryoshka. Given that the HPs are pooled each time the spell is cast, provided a Pegasus can count as a horse for the purpose of that spell, you could fold into something like a Heavy Warhorse (pretty cheap and easy to find) or a Horrid Horse (way tougher but way harder to get one's hands on) a couple times to gain 30 HPs each time (or 100 HPs with a Horrid Horse), before folding into the Pegasus. The short duration of 1 round/level is something to be mindful of, so bonus points if you get to Persist all those occurences of When Two Become One :smallbiggrin:

For nesting purposes you'll need to pick up Surrogate Spellcasting and Eschew Materials (unless your horse has thumbs I suppose). I'm also relatively certain that you could meld into a Phantom Steed for an excellent source of fly speed!

[Darth Ultron]

A character with a mount that gets into a lot of combat will want something like an animal companion that scales up with their level. So druids and rangers are a good pick, but also prestigie classes like Moonsea Sky Sentinel or Aglarond Griffonrider.

The Wild Cohort feat can get anyone a mount that scales.


And what you really want is hidden back in 3.0E, and never got a 3.5E update: The Windrider prestige class.

[ColorBlindNinja]

A character with a mount that gets into a lot of combat will want something like an animal companion that scales up with their level.

That is one potential drawback to the dragon. You'd have to pay to get a new one every once and so often.


And what you really want is hidden back in 3.0E, and never got a 3.5E update: The Windrider prestige class.

What does it do?

[RoboEmperor]

I give my mundanes a zombie griffon and make them buy a ring of feather falling.

Zombie Griffons are free and infinite and if one dies they can grab a 2nd one and a 3rd one.

The clumsy fly speed is a huge, huge problem though. You'll never get a full-round action unless you kinda cheese the rules (mount goes on my initiative, fighter goes right after my turn)

[ColorBlindNinja]

I give my mundanes a zombie griffon and make them buy a ring of feather falling.

Zombie Griffons are free and infinite and if one dies they can grab a 2nd one and a 3rd one.

The clumsy fly speed is a huge, huge problem though. You'll never get a full-round action unless you kinda cheese the rules (mount goes on my initiative, fighter goes right after my turn)

I do know the OP was trying to avoid using spells to get a mount.

EDIT: Or perhaps more accurately, he wanted to avoid being a spellcaster. I guess you could still pay someone to animate the undead for you.

[Tvtyrant]

In the "teamwork" thread, I brought up flying mounts as my preferred means for non-mages to get flying at...if not cheap, then at least story-cost prices. (Few if any are available on the open market, but you can probably talk your DM into a quest to find one in particular, and/or have Handle Animal and be prepared to pounce (metaphorically, if not mechanically) when the DM inevitably pits you against flying monsters that are suitable for riding.)

However, even with the exotic saddle, the Ride skill, and the mount itself, it remains probably more vulnerable (lower hp and AC, not to mention saves) than you are, and is inevitably bigger than you, both of which make it a more attractive target. And if it's killed out from under you, you go plummetting. Now, there are ways to make that not kill you (one-shot use-activated feather fall items, for instance), but you're still out a mount and probably out of the fight, and need to go find a new mount to replace it. Frustrating, to say the least.

Obvious ways to help protect it include barding and a saddle blanket of resistance (refluffed cloak). But if you're not a caster, and are already shelling out for your own protective item suite, what else can you do to keep it alive? Mounted Combat will protect it from one attack per round. And won't do a thing to spells. A pair of Rings of Friend Shield will at least let you cut its damage in half, though that's also quite expensive at 50,000 gp.

So, without bankrupting yourself by buying stuff for two characters, how does a non-caster (i.e. the most likely sort to want a flying mount) keep their flying mount alive through all the combats he, himself, has to survive?
I would ask the DM if you can treat them like an item to be improved by training them and spending gold and XP to add hit dice to them. It works for Undead and Golems, why not horses?

If not a ring of Shield Other would let you split damage with it, and there is an old supplement with armor that has its own HP that the mount could wear.

[Deophaun]

Use a broom/carpet of flying instead of a creature. Nobody ever attacks items, and they're unaffected by most AoEs.
Well, if we're going items...

...there's an arrow with the flying (OA) enhancement...

...which is typically followed by a DMG with the throwing enhancement.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Well, if we're going items...

...there's an arrow with the flying (OA) enhancement...

What would that even do? :smallconfused:

[Deophaun]

What would that even do? :smallconfused:
You hold it in your hand and fly for 50 minutes a day.

[Crake]

I give my mundanes a zombie griffon and make them buy a ring of feather falling.

Zombie Griffons are free and infinite and if one dies they can grab a 2nd one and a 3rd one.

The clumsy fly speed is a huge, huge problem though. You'll never get a full-round action unless you kinda cheese the rules (mount goes on my initiative, fighter goes right after my turn)

Free and infinite you say? How do you figure? The onyx gems you need to raise it, and the fact that if the zombie is destroyed it can't be animated again make me question how you came to this conclusion.

[Jack_Simth]

I do know the OP was trying to avoid using spells to get a mount.

EDIT: Or perhaps more accurately, he wanted to avoid being a spellcaster. I guess you could still pay someone to animate the undead for you.

For a Cleric, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. That makes it suitable for putting into an oil. Which means you can buy an oil of animate dead to apply to a suitable beast, and you count as the caster.


Free and infinite you say? How do you figure? The onyx gems you need to raise it, and the fact that if the zombie is destroyed it can't be animated again make me question how you came to this conclusion.
Probably Find it, then kill it via a suitable spell with Fell Animate meta-magic attached.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You hold it in your hand and fly for 50 minutes a day.

How interesting. I'll look it up.


For a Cleric, Animate Dead is a 3rd level spell. That makes it suitable for putting into an oil. Which means you can buy an oil of animate dead to apply to a suitable beast, and you count as the caster.

That works, but it'll cost a fair amount of cash to keep replacing mounts if they die.


Probably Find it, then kill it via a suitable spell with Fell Animate meta-magic attached.

Magic traps or Spellclocks also work.

[Crake]

Probably Find it, then kill it via a suitable spell with Fell Animate meta-magic attached.

So in this case the cost is a feat, and "find it then kill it" doesn't make it infinite by any means.

[Fizban]

Or pay a dragon 500 GP/HD for a year.
Which is not an insignificant cost. By the time you really need an extra tough mount, the cost of a tough enough dragon is as much as various flight items.

So what do you do if you fight a flying monster with DR?
Wait for it to close to melee under pressure from the rest of the party and/or bring ranged weapons that can pierce common DRs. Obviously.

Then you can't complain when you can't fly.
This I think is the crux of the issue. Because people who know the fighter works fine aren't complaining that the fighter can't fly. It's people who have a problem with fighters, who almost certainly don't play fighters because of it, that complain that the fighter can't fly. And if the fighter did want to fly, it would cost far fewer build resources to get it than gp resources.

Why should the DM [make encounters where flying isn't required]?
Because making the game work is the DM's job. If they've allowed these characters in the first place, they should be writing encounters these characters can overcome. As has become the popular phrasing, if they didn't want non-flying fighters then they should have said so during "session 0." Satus quo is not the default, it's a specific style that needs to be announced beforehand, and status quo optimized vs the PCs isn't even on the radar.

Maybe the DM is including more flying enemies to see if his/her PCs can counter them properly.
There is a difference between flying enemies, and encounters that require flying, because flying enemies usually do not require flying to fight. Some few have a combination that elevates them to Easy if Handled Properly, in which case the correct response is leaving and coming back with Fly/DR piercing/whatever is necessary.


My response to keeping your flying mount alive remains the same- devote build resources to it, because gp is a losing battle there. And if you really want a flying mount you should get an improved homebrew prestige class for it, because the existing versions are all hyper specific and lackluster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Which is not an insignificant cost. By the time you really need an extra tough mount, the cost of a tough enough dragon is as much as various flight items.

I'd say the dragon brings more benefits to the table than merely being able to grant a party member flight.


Wait for it to close to melee under pressure from the rest of the party

And why would it do that? Especially if it has ranged attacks.


and/or bring ranged weapons that can pierce common DRs. Obviously.

That'll mean having a magic bow. Possibly holy for evil outsiders.


This I think is the crux of the issue. Because people who know the fighter works fine aren't complaining that the fighter can't fly. It's people who have a problem with fighters, who almost certainly don't play fighters because of it, that complain that the fighter can't fly. And if the fighter did want to fly, it would cost far fewer build resources to get it than gp resources.

Being able to fly makes the Fighter more useful to the party as a whole.


Because making the game work is the DM's job. If they've allowed these characters in the first place, they should be writing encounters these characters can overcome. As has become the popular phrasing, if they didn't want non-flying fighters then they should have said so during "session 0." Satus quo is not the default, it's a specific style that needs to be announced beforehand, and status quo optimized vs the PCs isn't even on the radar.

I dare say that's not something that always comes up during session 0, if there is one.


There is a difference between flying enemies, and encounters that require flying, because flying enemies usually do not require flying to fight.

There are plenty of DMs who might see that the party can't fly and want to see how they react to a situation that requires it.


Some few have a combination that elevates them to Easy if Handled Properly, in which case the correct response is leaving and coming back with Fly/DR piercing/whatever is necessary.

And if they chase you?


My response to keeping your flying mount alive remains the same- devote build resources to it, because gp is a losing battle there. And if you really want a flying mount you should get an improved homebrew prestige class for it, because the existing versions are all hyper specific and lackluster.

So, homebrew then.

[Jack_Simth]

That works, but it'll cost a fair amount of cash to keep replacing mounts if they die.
Yes, but at double hit dice, they've got a decent chunk of HP and OK saves. Note, though, that if you include a suitable oil of Desecrate, a caster level 5 oil of Animate Dead can turn a 10 HD dragon you just killed into a 20 HD zombie under your control... and the oil with the components to pull it off costs just 1,250 gp for the animate dead, and 325 gp for the Desecrate oil. 20d12+20 HP (average 150) isn't bad for a 1,575 gp expenditure (although you probably do need to find and kill the beast yourself).

Magic traps or Spellclocks also work.Theoretically. But it's +3 metamagic, and when you're not explicitly the caster... who's in control of the beast? There's... fuzzy rulings needed in order to get that to work, so your mileage will vary between DM's.

[Deophaun]

And why would it do that? Especially if it has ranged attacks.
Because typically fights are over something. If that something is on the ground, then the creature needs to come down eventually. If that something is in the air, then why aren't you flying already?

[Fizban]

And why would it do that? Especially if it has ranged attacks.
*Sigh*. No, I'm not going to take over this thread with a detailed breakdown of actual flying monsters vs the standard party in reasonable encounter situations. To be blunt, I've seen enough of your responses to know that I don't want to put in 3 or 4 hours on a post you'll respond to with a single line "nuh uh."


And what you really want is hidden back in 3.0E, and never got a 3.5E update: The Windrider prestige class.
The first things that stand out are 4th in 10 casting (a la Blackguard) and Appraise Mount. The former is one of the general problems I have with flying mount classes, that so many seem to have directly associated the idea of a flying mount with spellcasting. Which is odd when the goal of flying mount classes should be putting warriors on flying mounts, not giving spellcasters a way to save spell slots, or force you to learn magic just to ride something better. The latter only ever matters if your DM generates potential mounts with different ability scores, which I've almost never heard of- so unless the mount is an intelligent NPC who's been statted up, it won't matter. And most DMs stat things they want to use, not to give to the players.

But anyway. The rest of it basically runs out like a less problematic prestige paladin, thanks to the fact that 3.5 canonized the same CR based mount limits for paladins in the DMG. The "Windrider" is in no way limited or granted flying mounts, instead they have no more or less than the ability to apply special mount bonuses to anything they can grab in game under the CR limit. The problem is that the "standard" for mounts and companions is usually taken as loose readings of the 3.5 Animal Companion, where people expect you just get another one in a day unless the DM starts interfering. The Windrider has none of that, so they do need a DM based source of mount whether it's plot or shop, and the MM prices on non-glidewing flying mounts are steep. And after that, they need training time for anything that isn't already trained, including months to use the bonus mount feats.

It's definitely the most widely effective of the mount classes though, simply because it does leave the options up to the DM, which means char-op can assume whatever OP mounts they want. The spells provide a battery of buffs and Heal Mounts to keep your mount alive (not all of the required, but a few), as well as both Bottle of Smoke and Phantom Steed so you aren't screwed even if you lose your mount. The main thing it completely lacks is any increase to Mounted Combat uses or Evasion, but since they get some uses of Heal Mount that could be considered a fair trade.

[Segev]

Indeed, the goal is to avoid being a spellcaster or relying on one day to day. Hiring a casting of a spell every so often or begging one off a party member when he won’t have to expend it during an adventuring day is fine. Though it does get bonus points if you don’t have to.

I am confused why zombie griffons are infinite, though. Also, the caster has to maintain control or the things will stop obeying the noncaster rider.

In that vein, though, there is planar binding and its brethren. A Nightmare bound to serve as a mount might work. Not sure if there’s an equally good nonevil mount option, nor if it’s genuinely survivable. But it’s an option.

[Quertus]

My personal preference is Zombie Dragons. Although live dragons certainly seem worth considering, at these prices.


Free and infinite you say? How do you figure? The onyx gems you need to raise it, and the fact that if the zombie is destroyed it can't be animated again make me question how you came to this conclusion.


Probably Find it, then kill it via a suitable spell with Fell Animate meta-magic attached.

Tainted Sorcerers also have "free" covered.

Citation on "cannot reanimate it"? (I've always treated it that way, and found new corpses, but don't remember seeing it in RAW)

[SLOTHRPG95]

My personal preference is Zombie Dragons. Although live dragons certainly seem worth considering, at these prices.

Citation on "cannot reanimate it"? (I've always treated it that way, and found new corpses, but don't remember seeing it in RAW)

From the text of Animate Dead:


The undead can follow you, or they can remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)

[RoboEmperor]

Indeed, the goal is to avoid being a spellcaster or relying on one day to day. Hiring a casting of a spell every so often or begging one off a party member when he won’t have to expend it during an adventuring day is fine. Though it does get bonus points if you don’t have to.

I am confused why zombie griffons are infinite, though. Also, the caster has to maintain control or the things will stop obeying the noncaster rider.

In that vein, though, there is planar binding and its brethren. A Nightmare bound to serve as a mount might work. Not sure if there’s an equally good nonevil mount option, nor if it’s genuinely survivable. But it’s an option.

They're infinite in the sense that you can get infinite number of them cheap or free thanks to lesser planar exchange. But yeah a cleric has to give up his hd of undead control for the fighter so this only works if the party cleric is not into undead minionmancy.

Alternatively, Night Caller (Libris Mortis p.79) will let the fighter raise up to 2 zombies for free and keep them under his control, though he can only raise 1 zombie per week, and it costs 7,000gp.

Nightmares are not an option. Their astral projection breaks games just like that.

[Quertus]

From the text of Animate Dead:

Wow, no wonder I always played it like that.:smallredface: My senility knows no bounds.


Nightmares are not an option. Their astral projection breaks games just like that.

And why not let the Fighter have nice things?

[RoboEmperor]

And why not let the Fighter have nice things?

They can have nice things. Nightmares are just too nice to be used in a game.

[liquidformat]

It really comes down to a cost benefit analysis, Hippogrif and Pegasus are 2,000-4,000gp depending on if you go for an egg, young, or trained young, like wise giant eagle/owl is 2,500-5,000gp, and griffon is 3,500-8,000gp. Griffon has the best ac at 17 and pounce, hippogrif, great eagle, and owl are next at 15 out of the three of them great eagle with evasion is probably the best though hippogrif has the best movement speeds of the three, finally, pegasus has 14 ac best speeds all around and for giggle detect good and evil at will. Beyond those are dire eagle, dire bat, the desmodu bats, and dragonhawks, I am afb so can't check but I believe only the desmodu bats have prices but all of these options should be cheaper choice, and I believe while dire bat is the slowest it also has the best ac at 20.

Anyone who has the skill to rear an animal should be rearing a warbeast, as adding the template is not that much harder. And magebred is always worth the cost if it is allowed and an animal as the costs

If you can get your dm to let you customize the mount's feats in the case that you buy an egg or young and raise it yourself you can have it pickup stuff like Improved Flight to improve maneuverability and even air heritage for better flight speeds.

All and all I think you are looking at how much gold you need to put in to buy and protect a mount vs the price of say the broom.

[Deophaun]

In that vein, though, there is planar binding and its brethren. A Nightmare bound to serve as a mount might work. Not sure if there’s an equally good nonevil mount option, nor if it’s genuinely survivable. But it’s an option.
See the Ecalypse in the Manual of the Planes. Even better, there's no need to negotiate for service. Just succeed on a DC 30 Ride check.

[Crake]

They can have nice things. Nightmares are just too nice to be used in a game.

There's a lesser nightmare in one of the books somewhere that is basically just exactly the same as a regular nightmare, just minus the etherealness and astral projection abilities.

[Segev]

See the Ecalypse in the Manual of the Planes. Even better, there's no need to negotiate for service. Just succeed on a DC 30 Ride check.

Can you tell me more about it? I'm AFB right now.


Also, looked up the dragon-hiring last night when I was stricken by a bout of insomnia, and you need a DC 30 Diplomacy check to make it work. Assuming you're taking 10, you need a +20 to succeed, which is a non-class skill and often a dump stat for fighters. Tricky. For 1,000 gp, you can get a +10 Diplomacy skill shard (a one-shot), and you can add another +10 with an extra 2500 gp worth of bribes, putting a 3500 gp surcharge on the base 500 gp/HD price. If you're looking for less loss, a +10 Diplomacy 1x/day item is 2,000 gp, raising the surcharge to 4500 gp, but also leaving you with a +10 1x/day to Diplomacy, for whatever that's worth to you.

An amusing thought occurred to me when I realized that the payment need not be in straight gp. You could conceivably use the non-expended magic item of +10 Diplomacy as your bribe (or part of it). Or even a +9 item.

This led me to the more story-based notion of a knight who wanted not just to hire a mount, but woo a wife, and fell for a female young adult gold dragon (11 HD), and commissioned an engagement ring that is a +8 Competence Bonus to Diplomacy item. That's 6400 gp market value. He then adds an additional 2100 gp worth of treasure - probably thoughtful gifts, like dragon-sized barding or something similar - and goes to make his plea. If she accepts his proposal (and thus the ring), that's 8500 gp of bribes for a year-long engagement whereafter she can either call it off or they will get married. It's also 3000 gp more than the minimum 5500 gp to hire an 11-HD dragon for a year, for a net +12 on top of the +8 he gets from the engagment ring that he subtly has his thumb through as he kneels to propose.

After that, he's got a year to try to fully win her heart (and level up to the point he can take her as a cohort, mechanically).

[Deophaun]

Can you tell me more about it? I'm AFB right now.
Same speed, double the HP, etherealness, concealment in shadow/darkness, plane shift, repulsion. Has Spell Focus (Illusion) for some reason.

[Fizban]

There's a lesser nightmare in one of the books somewhere that is basically just exactly the same as a regular nightmare, just minus the etherealness and astral projection abilities.
Lesser Nightmare in Planar Handbook is priced, but also much lesser. It would be better than basically all the other priced flying mounts. . . if it could fly. It's still a far cry better than most other purchasable mounts with 24 AC, plus the flaming hooves and smoke attack. If your mount has higher AC than you, it's probably fine. But alas, no flight.

[ColorBlindNinja]

*Sigh*. No, I'm not going to take over this thread with a detailed breakdown of actual flying monsters vs the standard party in reasonable encounter situations. To be blunt, I've seen enough of your responses to know that I don't want to put in 3 or 4 hours on a post you'll respond to with a single line "nuh uh."

If you won't defend your position, then don't expect me to think it's valid.

[TheCount]

When we are talking about protecting flying stuff, its mostly magical defense, as its (supposedly) easier to evade in the are (3d) than on the ground (2d) so.... an at-will collar of antimagic field?

There are also the more mundane defenses like banding and such....
enchant them as well?

now i know it would be rightfully called cheese but a blinkdog with that at-will antimagic collar in armor would be a HELL of a opponent even on the ground but if it can fly....

i dont know what race is the rider but maybe an advanced winged( or feathered?) blinkdog with those would be nice.

Also, it IS possible to ride on, blink AND teleport with a blink dog... at least by this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?282814-odd-blink-dog-as-a-mount-idea

[ColorBlindNinja]

now i know it would be rightfully called cheese but a blinkdog with that antimagic collar in armor would be a HELL of a opponent even on the ground but if it can fly....

It can't blink or teleport if it's wearing an AMF collar.

[TheCount]

It can't blink or teleport if it's wearing an AMF collar.

....yeah, i shouldnt assumed its clear i thoguht about an infinite command word/ at-will, antimagic collar, my bad.

fixed, thanks for catching that.

on that note, would a magical item that generates antimagic zone(s) suprass itself when activated? like a really expensive useless machine?

[ColorBlindNinja]

....yeah, i shouldnt assumed its clear i thoguht about an infinite command word/ at-will, antimagic collar, my bad.

fixed, thanks for catching that.

No problem.


on that note, would a magical item that generates antimagic zone(s) suprass itself when activated? like a really expensive useless machine?

No more than the Antimagic Field spell would surpress itself, I'd imagine.

[Segev]

Finally looked up the Ecalypse that somebody recommended a while back; it's interesting, because you don't actually need to use planar binding to ellicit service, nor are you limited thereby as to duration. Ecalypses have a specific "if you can get on his back and succeed a DC 30 Ride check, you can break them to serve you" clause, gaining a very loyal mount with some spiffy perks (share-able incorporeality, ignore the -5 penalty for riding bareback).

Hiring a slate of casters to help you with this one-off task is surprisingly affordable. Add a couple of masterwork items and a Ride Skill Shard, and you can get up to a +29 to the roll. (Assuming you're a level 5 character when you do this.)


660 gp Planar Binding (Ecalypse) (no bonuses; just paying a wizard to summon it for this attempt)

Ride ranks: 8 | + 8
Handle Animal ranks: 5+ | + 2 (synergy)
50 gp Masterwork "break a horse" bridle | + 2 (circumstance)
50 gp Masterwork "ride without a saddle" chaps | + 2 (circumstance)
Dex 14 | + 2
60 gp Enhancement to Dex +4 | + 2 (hiring a second, 3rd-level caster)
150 gp Heroism | + 2 (morale, hiring a third, 5th-level caster)
810 gp Ride Skill Shard +9 | + 9 (competence, one-shot)
------- ------
1780 gp +29 to the Ride check

That DC 30 check, however, is technically DC 35 due to the -5 penalty for riding bareback (which applies until you break the horse). So you may need Skill Focus (Ride) and Animal Affinity as two feats for an additional +5 to the roll, which is getting to be a hefty build-investment. With those, you succeed even on a natural 1 on the skill roll.

Alternatively, waiting 4 more levels (level 9) will get you there with the extra ranks in Ride and upgrading to a 1000 gp +10 skill shard. You can also take your chances with only succeeding on a 6+ on the die. Or you can spend additional 660 gp iterations to ask the conjurer to call up several of them and bind them to a service of sticking around until one of them accepts you as their mount; you'd want them all lined up, though, so that your other buffs don't wear off between trials, and the one-off skill bonus item becomes a no-go, so that's a much lower chance per attempt.