Minor consideration regarding Divine Insight

[Jowgen]

This is a follow up from the RAW thread regarding the Divine Insight spell.

I am wondering whether reading it with sufficient levels of pedantic rules-lawyer zeal could allow one to mess with the intended/assumed timing of the spell a bit. This is pretty daft and Troacctid definitely had the right of it in ruling against it in the RAW thread, but I'm still wondering whether it's technically arguable.

I shall elaborate.


Once during the spell's duration, you can choose to use its effect. This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to 5 + your caster level (maximum bonus of +15) on any single skill check. Activating the effect requires an immediate action. You must choose to use the insight bonus before you make the check you want to modify. Once used, the spell ends.

I read the order of effect (after the spell is cast/active) as follows

1. You spend an immediate action to activate "the effect" of the spell.

2. You choose a skill and gain the insight bonus to it (i.e. the effect).

3. You make a check with the benefit of the insight bonus.

4. The spell ends by discharging as the insight bonus has been used to boost the single skill check.


Now the intended timing of the spell is obviously for all these steps to occur in seamless succession, i.e. within a single turn/round, but I don't think the text technically stipulates this.

There is no line that specifies that the single skill check must be made immediately after you activate the effect (i.e. step 3 following step 2 without delay), in the same turn/round, or even as part of the action used for making the skill check.

The only stipulation on timing is that you have to choose using the insight bonus prior to making the check, and that the spell ends after the insight bonus has been used as part of making a single skill check.

So I think it can be argued that you can trigger the effect as an immediate action as to gain the insight bonus, but that nothing forces you to make the check right after, allowing you to put other actions between step 2 and 3. After all, the spell doesn't discharge when you activate the effect as an immediate action, but after you use the effect.

Examples of how this might apply in practice:

Brock has a divine insight active on himself. He decides he wants to make a really big knowledge check to learn why kids love cinnamon toast crunch so much. He chooses to spend an immediate action to activate the effect of divine insight. He chooses knowledge(arcana) as the skill and gains the insight bonus to it. The spells' effect is now active, but it's not yet discharged since he hasn't made the skill check yet.

Brock stands there like an idiot till next turn, then moves over to his table. There he activates a Tome of Worldly memory as a standard action to gain a competence bonus to knowledge(arcana) and for good measure he casts Demoncall as a Swift action for a profane bonus as well. He now makes his knowledge check and divine insight ends via discharge. He still can't see what the big deal is.


Another scenario that might be more generally applicable is applying divine insight to any skill-check that requires multiple rounds to use, like decipher script taking 10 consecutive full round actions. Under this reading, Brock could choose to trigger Divine Insight during round 3 of deciphering, but the spell would remain active until he made the skill check in round 10, allowing him to do things like take a bunch of 5 ft steps and/or cast several swift/immediate actions spells between triggering and using.


So, does this reading have a leg to stand on in your opinion?

[tyckspoon]

I think, parsed strictly in RAW, yes - you're right and the skill check doesn't have to happen directly after triggering Divine Insight. It seems hard to me to argue the intent of the spell wasn't to basically say 'when you make a skill check, activate Divine Insight as an immediate action', but that's the joys of D&D rulestext.

Also even with all those bonuses Brock still won't know why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch, because he's checking the wrong skill - that would be a Know (Local) for information about humanoids :smalltongue: (unless Cinnamon Toast Crunch is actually bearing a magical effect - that's usually thrown under Spellcraft for identifying magic, tho.)

[Crake]

The issue with your logic is that you're assuming a check exists before it is in the process of being made. You can't modify a check that doesn't exist yet. A check "comes into existence" in essence when the decision to actually make the check occurs (that is, you're actively choosing to make the check now, not determining your intention to make the check later), and there exists a metagame state of that check both before and after the actual roll of the check is made, both existing before the actual outcome is resolved. Some effects let you modify the check before it is rolled, others let you modify the check after it is rolled, and others still allow you to reroll the check, but none of these can be applied to a check roll before the actual check is taking place, because before then, the check doesn't exist, it is merely a possibility. There are of course, abilities that specify your next check, but if something modifies a specific check, the action to affect said check must be made while the check is being made (either before or after the roll, depending on the ability).

That's how I parse it anyway, and thus would be my logic in not accepting your reading.

[Troacctid]

It's the same wording used by a ton of other abilities, including Stunning Fist, Spring Attack, Cleave, and Shot on the Run—and those are just core-only feats. "You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack." Imagine if taking a single 5-foot step at any point meant you could never use Cleave again, ever.

[Jowgen]

The issue with your logic is that you're assuming a check exists before it is in the process of being made. You can't modify a check that doesn't exist yet. A check "comes into existence" in essence when the decision to actually make the check occurs (that is, you're actively choosing to make the check now, not determining your intention to make the check later), and there exists a metagame state of that check both before and after the actual roll of the check is made, both existing before the actual outcome is resolved. Some effects let you modify the check before it is rolled, others let you modify the check after it is rolled, and others still allow you to reroll the check, but none of these can be applied to a check roll before the actual check is taking place, because before then, the check doesn't exist, it is merely a possibility. There are of course, abilities that specify your next check, but if something modifies a specific check, the action to affect said check must be made while the check is being made (either before or after the roll, depending on the ability).

An interesting argument.

So if I follow you correctly, before Step 1 you would place a Step 0 of "Decide to attempt a skill check" and modify Step 3 to "roll the skill check chosen in step 0", meaning that the immediate action needs to be taken between those two.

If one accepts your premise that a skill check is something that needs to first be brought into existence through the declaration of wanting to attempt it before it can be be modified, then can't refute that. Not sure (genuinely undecided) if I subscribe to this view myself, but I can definitely see it.

However, correct me if I am wrong, doesn't this reading still permit messing with the apparent intended timing through the use of long-duration skill checks, like decipher script or Craft?

Like, let's say Brock wants to spend the day making a magnifying glass and gets crafting. Doesn't the craft check "exists" for those hours of crafting before it is rolled in the end, meaning he can trigger Divine Insight at any point during those hours to then get the bonus when said check is rolled at the end?




It's the same wording used by a ton of other abilities, including Stunning Fist, Spring Attack, Cleave, and Shot on the Run—and those are just core-only feats. "You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack." Imagine if taking a single 5-foot step at any point meant you could never use Cleave again, ever.

I can clearly run but not hide my heresy from thy eminence :smallwink:

So your argument is that the wording used for the timing sequence of the spell is standardised, and interpreting it as to allow delaying the roll of the check after activation would lead to wide-spread dysfunction?

I don't personally see it. Divine Insight is a pretty niche case: A long duration spell with a discharge-able effect, where you have to choose how to allocate said effect before attempting a certain action, after which it ends. Finding a sufficiently similar spell (feats make a bad comparison I think) that uses the same wording in a way that could result in dysfunction seems improbable.

[Bronk]

I read the order of effect (after the spell is cast/active) as follows

1. You spend an immediate action to activate "the effect" of the spell.

2. You choose a skill and gain the insight bonus to it (i.e. the effect).

3. You make a check with the benefit of the insight bonus.

4. The spell ends by discharging as the insight bonus has been used to boost the single skill check.



I agree with Crake about the order here. The order would be:

1: You cast Divine Insight in anticipation of needing a skill boost at some point.

2: The DM allows you to make a check, and with what skill.

3: Use your immediate action to gain your insight bonus from the Divine Insight spell.

4: Roll, and the Divine Insight spell is discharged.




Now the intended timing of the spell is obviously for all these steps to occur in seamless succession, i.e. within a single turn/round, but I don't think the text technically stipulates this.

There is no line that specifies that the single skill check must be made immediately after you activate the effect (i.e. step 3 following step 2 without delay), in the same turn/round, or even as part of the action used for making the skill check.

The only stipulation on timing is that you have to choose using the insight bonus prior to making the check, and that the spell ends after the insight bonus has been used as part of making a single skill check.

So I think it can be argued that you can trigger the effect as an immediate action as to gain the insight bonus, but that nothing forces you to make the check right after, allowing you to put other actions between step 2 and 3. After all, the spell doesn't discharge when you activate the effect as an immediate action, but after you use the effect.

If the spell effect ends after the immediate action, that would mean that the magical skill bonus is gone too.



Examples of how this might apply in practice:

Brock has a divine insight active on himself. He decides he wants to make a really big knowledge check to learn why kids love cinnamon toast crunch so much. He chooses to spend an immediate action to activate the effect of divine insight. He chooses knowledge(arcana) as the skill and gains the insight bonus to it. The spells' effect is now active, but it's not yet discharged since he hasn't made the skill check yet.

Brock stands there like an idiot till next turn, then moves over to his table. There he activates a Tome of Worldly memory as a standard action to gain a competence bonus to knowledge(arcana) and for good measure he casts Demoncall as a Swift action for a profane bonus as well. He now makes his knowledge check and divine insight ends via discharge. He still can't see what the big deal is.


Another scenario that might be more generally applicable is applying divine insight to any skill-check that requires multiple rounds to use, like decipher script taking 10 consecutive full round actions. Under this reading, Brock could choose to trigger Divine Insight during round 3 of deciphering, but the spell would remain active until he made the skill check in round 10, allowing him to do things like take a bunch of 5 ft steps and/or cast several swift/immediate actions spells between triggering and using.


So, does this reading have a leg to stand on in your opinion?

I think you're adding more steps here than is necessary. For skill usages that take a long time, there's still only one check, and that happens when the DM decides. One example is training a warbeast, which can take over a year, yet you can still use Divine Insight (an immediate action), Guidance of the Avatar (a non action), and Demoncall (a standard action) all in the same round in order to give yourself a boost.

[Jowgen]

I agree with Crake about the order here. The order would be:

1: You cast Divine Insight in anticipation of needing a skill boost at some point.

2: The DM allows you to make a check, and with what skill.

3: Use your immediate action to gain your insight bonus from the Divine Insight spell.

4: Roll, and the Divine Insight spell is discharged.

It's a very reasonable reading and likely the one that's intended. My reading completely relies on the assumption that your Step 2 does not have to come before Step 3, which I think can be ruled either way.


If the spell effect ends after the immediate action, that would mean that the magical skill bonus is gone too.

Precisely, under any reading the Spell needs to remain active after the immediate action until the modified roll has been made, otherwise it just doesn't work. The only way around that would be if it were ruled that the immediate action needs to be made as part of the rolling of the check (step 3 and 4 together), which can be how it is ruled but there is no text basis.


I think you're adding more steps here than is necessary. For skill usages that take a long time, there's still only one check, and that happens when the DM decides. One example is training a warbeast, which can take over a year, yet you can still use Divine Insight (an immediate action), Guidance of the Avatar (a non action), and Demoncall (a standard action) all in the same round in order to give yourself a boost.

Demoncall actually got updated to Swift action casting in FCI, making it tricky to stack with Divine Insight, which is actually part of the reason I started looking into this.

I think most readings will still allow it for long checks, as only Demoncall species needing to be done in the same round as the check, while Divine Insight doesn't.

[Florian]

So, does this reading have a leg to stand on in your opinion?

Nope. The last part is the important one here, meaning you can only ever activate the effect in combination with a check.

[RoboEmperor]

An interesting argument.

So if I follow you correctly, before Step 1 you would place a Step 0 of "Decide to attempt a skill check" and modify Step 3 to "roll the skill check chosen in step 0", meaning that the immediate action needs to be taken between those two.

If one accepts your premise that a skill check is something that needs to first be brought into existence through the declaration of wanting to attempt it before it can be be modified, then can't refute that. Not sure (genuinely undecided) if I subscribe to this view myself, but I can definitely see it.

However, correct me if I am wrong, doesn't this reading still permit messing with the apparent intended timing through the use of long-duration skill checks, like decipher script or Craft?

Like, let's say Brock wants to spend the day making a magnifying glass and gets crafting. Doesn't the craft check "exists" for those hours of crafting before it is rolled in the end, meaning he can trigger Divine Insight at any point during those hours to then get the bonus when said check is rolled at the end?

You argue much better than I could. I agree.

Long checks. Example:Intimidate.
Attempt an intimidate check, requires 1minute. Activate Divine Insight at the start of the 1minute and declare that it's for this intimidate. Then at the final round of the minute activate Surge of Fortune's effect with an immediate action and roll the check. Instant 35 result.

Short Checks. Example:Use Magic Device.
Activate Surge of Fortune's effect, ready an action to use that magic item at the start of the next guy's turn and end your turn. At the start of the next guy's turn use an immediate action to activate Divine Insight and roll that UMD check. Instant 35 check result.

[Troacctid]

The game differentiates between actions and the checks required to resolve them. The action takes X amount of time; at some point during the action, you make the check.

check: A method of determining the result when a character attempts an action (other than an attack or a saving throw) that has a chance of failure. Checks are based on a relevant character ability, skill, or other characteristic. Most checks are either ability checks or skill checks, though special types such as turning checks, caster level checks, dispel checks, and initiative checks also exist. The specific name of the check usually corresponds to the skill or ability used. To make a check, roll 1d20 and add any relevant modifiers. (Higher results are always better.) If this check result equals or exceeds the Difficulty Class number assigned by the DM (or the opponent's check, if the action is opposed), the check succeeds.
A particular use of a skill might require an hour to complete, but the check might be rolled only at the end, for example.

[RoboEmperor]

The game differentiates between actions and the checks required to resolve them. The action takes X amount of time; at some point during the action, you make the check.

A particular use of a skill might require an hour to complete, but the check might be rolled only at the end, for example.

The contention here is that Divine Insight does not have to be activated right before the check. Just before.

Surge of Fortune makes it clear you need to activate it within 1 round of the check. Divine Insight lacks such language which lets you declare you're using its effect for a check more than a round before the actual check.

[Troacctid]

Which takes us back to Cleave. Doesn't say directly before the attack, just says before. So I take my 5-foot step for the round and...whoops, I can never use Cleave ever again!

[RoboEmperor]

Which takes us back to Cleave. Doesn't say directly before the attack, just says before. So I take my 5-foot step for the round and...whoops, I can never use Cleave ever again!

I don't think the example quite fits.

We are trying to determine whether the "before" in the spell description means right before, like .1 second before, or anytime before.

Cleave doesn't have the word "before" in it. The fact that Cleave's description's failure to exactly specify that you can't take a 5-foot step in between attacks has no correlation with the topic at hand.

In d&d, does "before" mean right before or anytime before?

[RoboEmperor]

Even if the spell is dispelled before the subject dies, it still does not regain its lost Constitution points.

At any point before the spell's duration expires, you can force the subject to reroll a single attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check as an immediate action.

Suggests Before means Anytime Before.

:)

[Troacctid]

I don't think the example quite fits.

We are trying to determine whether the "before" in the spell description means right before, like .1 second before, or anytime before.

Cleave doesn't have the word "before" in it. The fact that Cleave's description's failure to exactly specify that you can't take a 5-foot step in between attacks has no correlation with the topic at hand.

In d&d, does "before" mean right before or anytime before?
In this case we know it has to be right before because the spell ends after you use the effect, so if you don't get the bonus right away, there is no bonus.

[RoboEmperor]

In this case we know it has to be right before because the spell ends after you use the effect, so if you don't get the bonus right away, there is no bonus.

Actually, that's a very convincing argument. Ok I am convinced.

Alrighty... I got UPD and UMD covered with the ready action shenanigan. Would it work for Intimidate?

9 consecutive rounds of intimidate, on the 10th round use a standard action to "start full-round action, and on the 11th round activate Surge of Fortune, ready a "finish full-round action", and before the readied action goes off use Divine Insight.

[Zaq]

This is not entirely dissimilar to hidden truth, which has an "instantaneous" effect of boosting the target's next Knowledge check but that doesn't specify when said Knowledge check has to occur.

RAW seems to be potentially able to accommodate your ruling. As to whether I'd support it in a real game? Eh, depends on exactly what kind of benefit you're looking to wrangle and why this is really helpful to you. Lots of things exist in RAW that aren't really fun to mess with.