PDA

View Full Version : DM Help Would you call this evil?



Aetis
2019-01-29, 10:33 AM
Hello, Playgrounders.

There is a group of NPCs in my campaign that lured in low-level adventurers into exploring an unknown dungeon. They lied when they said there would be tons of unguarded loot and treasure, ready for taking, when in fact, they had no idea what is even down there. I ruled them as evil when detect evil was used, but a player of mine raised the point that "Aren't adventurers supposed to go explore unknown areas? Sure, the NPC group downplayed the dangers and advertised the rewards, but at end of the day, every adventurer who entered the dungeon did it of his/her own accord, and knew that they were betting their lives for loot."

It's a good point, although I don't know if I agree enough to rule them as neutral. Any thoughts?

denthor
2019-01-29, 10:42 AM
They are cowards to start. They say there is treasure but have not been there, (will not go?). Right now they are Nuetral on a slow drift to evil.

If they follow the party in with intentions to murder them after they are weak from a fight (2nd encounter no rest ) with intention of stealing. That is one step closer to evil. Following through with the plan pushes them over edge to slightly evil.

If they shadow and engage on behalf of the party the remain cowardly Nuetral.

If they save the day heal the party and help without reward they shade towards good.

hamishspence
2019-01-29, 10:46 AM
"Lies that endanger people" (telling adventurers that treasure is unguarded, when in fact the liars have no reason to believe this is the case) are a bit on the evil side.

And since the NPCs have already been ruled as Evil, their behaviour isn't particularly out of character - and there's no real reason to retcon them as non-Evil.



While one could have Neutral characters committing this kind of Evil act (Neutral characters are capable of doing evil now and again) - it certainly isn't inappropriate for Evil characters to do it.

What are the NPC group getting out of this?

The chance to have "cannon fodder" trip most of the dungeons traps, kill most of the monsters, so that, when the survivors come back and report what happened, the NPC group can go in with less risk to themselves?

denthor
2019-01-29, 10:50 AM
"Lies that endanger people" (telling adventurers that treasure is unguarded, when in fact the liars have no reason to believe this is the case) are a bit on the evil side.

And since the NPCs have already been ruled as Evil, their behaviour isn't particularly out of character.

While one could have Neutral characters committing this kind of Evil act (Neutral characters are capable of doing evil now and again) - it certainly isn't inappropriate for Evil characters to do it.

What are the NPC group getting out of this?

The chance to have "cannon fodder" trip most of the dungeons traps, kill most of the monsters, so that, when the survivors come back and report what happened, the NPC group can go in with less risk to themselves?

Question is retelling of a bar rumor evil? It is not a call to action it is just something someone said that they thought the heard. Or out of daydreaming.

Really all that has been done here.

Like your line of reasoning.

Aetis
2019-01-29, 10:51 AM
Is cowardice evil though? I think most people would say no.


What are the NPC group getting out of this?

The chance to have "cannon fodder" trip most of the dungeons traps, kill most of the monsters, so that, when the survivors come back and report what happened, the NPC group can go in with less risk to themselves?

Yes.

sleepy hedgehog
2019-01-29, 10:53 AM
I would say not evil.
As lying is a chaotic action.
And there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that the PC's would have an issue investigating it.

hamishspence
2019-01-29, 10:57 AM
Lying, according to BoVD, is an action that is usually (but not always) Evil.

"Exploiting people for your own profit" is consistently portrayed as Evil.

So these adventurers are being exploited, making use of their desire for risk-free profit, via lying to them.

Jophiel
2019-01-29, 11:09 AM
I think that lying is evil* and misleading them of a risk that could have fatal consequences was evil. That said, you could be Neutral, or even Good, and commit an evil act without being "Evil" as an alignment. It's a question of motive and frequency. But, that said, evil people also commit evil acts on the regular so I wouldn't worry about changing the initial NPCs.

*Certainly in this instance; we're not talking about white lies to someone on their deathbed.

LibraryOgre
2019-01-29, 12:06 PM
I would say not evil.
As lying is a chaotic action.
And there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that the PC's would have an issue investigating it.

I'd lean towards lying as generally chaotic, as well. Now, if they were intending to use the PCs to soften up the dungeon and then kill the PCs to both rob them and protect themselves, yeah, that's chaos in the service of evil, but I'd say deliberately misleading someone tends to be a chaotic act.

FireJustice
2019-01-29, 12:06 PM
intent is key here.
why the lie?
why they felt that they needed to get them to explore a dungeon using lies?
what's their endgame?

Segev
2019-01-29, 12:14 PM
The act was chaotic neutral to chaotic evil depending on the liars' expectations. At a minimum, they gave reason to the adventurers to go in unprepared for danger when there's a very real chance there is danger. This demonstrates either a gross foolishness or negligence (or both) in their willingness to deceive to get an act they want without thinking carefully about (or caring about) how this will impact the safety of those they're manipulating.

If they're not monstrously evil people already, though, this act isn't vile enough on its own to make them ping.

Knowing their motives for sending in the adenturers, and what they expect the outcome to be, would help in judging this, if only because it will shape what their likely next actions are.

hamishspence
2019-01-29, 12:17 PM
Now, if they were intending to use the PCs to soften up the dungeon and then kill the PCs to both rob them and protect themselves, yeah, that's chaos in the service of evil,

"Intending to use the PCs to soften up the dungeon", yes, the OP has stated that.

If the PCs survive, it's possible the NPCs won't try to kill them, but it seems like the NPCs have no qualms about the PCs dying -but with the dungeon being what kills them rather than the NPCs themselves.

LibraryOgre
2019-01-29, 12:21 PM
"Intending to use the PCs to soften up the dungeon", yes, the OP has stated that.

If the PCs survive, it's possible the NPCs won't try kill them, but it seems like the NPCs have no qualms about the PCs dying -but with the dungeon being what kills them rather than the NPCs themselves.

Which would not, necessarily, make it evil.

The PCs are, presumably, hero-class characters, even if they're of low experience. They're not being forced to take the action. At best, the NPCs exhibit indifference towards the PCs, which would lean towards CN. If the PCs were not prepared professionals, or were being forced into this, or if the NPCs are planning on murdering them when they're weakened, then we're moving more towards evil, just from the lying.

hamishspence
2019-01-29, 12:23 PM
By telling the PCs that there are no hazards in the Dungeon - (that, aside from the treasure, it's clear), the NPCs are trying to make the PCs "unprepared".

They lied when they said there would be tons of unguarded loot and treasure, ready for taking, when in fact, they had no idea what is even down there.

My standard for "does it qualify as evil" is "Would an exalted character lose the benefits of their Exalted feats, for doing this?"

Jophiel
2019-01-29, 12:36 PM
I don't see where lying = chaotic comes from. Totalitarian regimes are famous liars while being Lawful.

LibraryOgre
2019-01-29, 12:39 PM
I don't see where lying = chaotic comes from. Totalitarian regimes are famous liars while being Lawful.

Are they lawful? Or are they so powerful that people don't dare question their lies?

The central problem with D&D alignment, to me, has always been unclarity of definitions.

Jophiel
2019-01-29, 12:43 PM
Are they lawful? Or are they so powerful that people don't dare question their lies?
They're lawful. Deception is one of their tools for maintaining order. That's the key idea behind propaganda.

Slipperychicken
2019-01-29, 12:44 PM
Boiling complex situations like these down to dnd-alignment-labels carries a risk of dramatically oversimplifying the issues and characters involved.

Why not just abandon character alignment and judge the situation in terms you already have?

Aetis
2019-01-29, 01:02 PM
I would, but detect evil is involved.

The Jack
2019-01-29, 01:06 PM
'Unguarded? We meant relatively unguarded, otherwise we obviously would've kept you out of this and taken it all for ourselves, we told you what you were getting into; you have no right to complain'


If they planned to murder the PCs afterwards, it may be evil, but mostly because it's pointless/rep saving kind of thing. Maybe if they had the greater good in mind, like they were supporting a prince with dungeon wealth...




Also, point of order for at least 5e; Detect evil doesn't bring up every ****, bully,bandit or one-time murderer. Detect evil is for your cultists, your devils, and the murderers and rapists that just go that extra mile to be sicko all the time. A lot of people are capable of a lot of evil, but they're mostly good people.

Then you've got that guy that stole my barely-working bike.
What kind of person steals something, which has little monetary value, from a poor man who needed it?

5e wise, I'd limit 'detect evil' to Planar beings who are defined by evil, and those people who're just biologically driven to act bastards. I'd also include people who work extensively with evil magic, as the scent will rub off on them.

Bohandas
2019-01-29, 01:12 PM
I would say not evil.
As lying is a chaotic action.

Unless you always lie, or its part of an organized coverup/disinformation campaign, in which case it's lawful

hamishspence
2019-01-29, 01:29 PM
Also, point of order for at least 5e; Detect evil doesn't bring up every ****, bully,bandit or one-time murderer. Detect evil is for your cultists, your devils, and the murderers and rapists that just go that extra mile to be sicko all the time. A lot of people are capable of a lot of evil, but they're mostly good people.

Then you've got that guy that stole my barely-working bike.
What kind of person steals something, which has little monetary value, from a poor man who needed it?

5e wise, I'd limit 'detect evil' to Planar beings who are defined by evil, and those people who're just biologically driven to act bastards.

By RAW, in 5e, it only detects Fiends.

In previous editions, it depends on the setting, but Eberron in particular has Evil as very widespread - expect 30% of average commoners to be Evil.

Friv
2019-01-29, 02:48 PM
As a general rule, I would say that convincing other people to do something profoundly risky by lying to them about the rewards is evil, yes. Doubly so if you're doing so in the hopes that they will die so that your life can be easier.

It might not be as evil as also waiting by the entrance to ambush and kill the people who survive your trap, but it's a case of deliberately making it impossible for your marks to make a good risk/reward assessment, and explicitly hoping that said failure will cause their deaths. It is just possible that a non-evil person will do that for the right motivation (desperation, extreme social pressure), but intending to profit off innocent people's deaths is evil, no matter how you slice it. If an NPC is comfortable doing that, yep, evil.

Now, if you have a dungeon that needs to be cleared because, I don't know, monsters are coming out of it and killing your friends, and you lie about the rewards because you don't think the adventurers will go into an unknown-treasure dungeon, but also you expect them to kill the monsters and survive, that's still a little evil, but it's the sort of evil that a non-evil person is much more likely to do.

Mastikator
2019-01-29, 03:04 PM
Is cowardice evil though? I think most people would say no.



Yes.

They tricked the PCs into doing something dangerous because they would benefit from the PCs death. The only benefit being material gain.

That isn't cowardice, that is greed. It's evil. It's not neutral or only slightly evil or excusable.

Your moral instincts were right on track Aetis when you made the call to set the NPCs as evil.

Mordar
2019-01-29, 03:34 PM
I'm also in the "it depends" camp.

They want a group to go in and soften the dungeon, maybe even clean it out, and they undersold the danger based on rumor? N(eutral).
They want a group to go in and take the risks, keep the rewards, and they deliberately undersold the known danger? N but not nice.
They want a group to go in and take the risks, then bump them off so they get the reward, regardless of underselling? E.
They want this group to go in and take the risks, keep the rewards, including a Magical Item of Awesome Plot Power, and undersold the danger to test them? Potentially G.

I guess it boils down to "Do they want the PCs to die?" and/or "Do they intend on letting the PCs keep their loot?", not just "Did they intentionally lie and undersell the danger".

- M

Geddy2112
2019-01-29, 03:37 PM
I'll echo a lot of the above- in and of itself, just telling PC's this with absolutely no motive is not even an aligned act. They could just be parroting gossip. Since the NPC's don't actually know what is down there it is as much just making things up as it is formally lying.

If they are trying to see if anyone is gullible enough to go down into a cave that random strangers told them is safe and full of money, chaotic but not evil. If they know there is certain danger(not just the part where dark caves are probably dangerous) it is evil. if they are intending to double cross the party then sure it is evil. If their motives are evil, then they detect as evil.




Also, point of order for at least 5e; Detect evil doesn't bring up every ****, bully,bandit or one-time murderer. Detect evil is for your cultists, your devils, and the murderers and rapists that just go that extra mile to be sicko all the time. A lot of people are capable of a lot of evil, but they're mostly good people.

Pathfinder fixed this as well. People of 4hd and lower do not give off an alignment for the purposes of detection spells. This means that almost every commoner and most NPC's won't ping for alignment purposes. It also specifies spells and magical items of caster level 5 and below don't detect as evil, even if they are [evil]spells.

Bohandas
2019-01-29, 04:13 PM
Are they lawful? Or are they so powerful that people don't dare question their lies?

The central problem with D&D alignment, to me, has always been unclarity of definitions.


I don't see where lying = chaotic comes from. Totalitarian regimes are famous liars while being Lawful.

They're lawful. Or at least the most effective ones are. The ones that choose a lie carefully and stick to it consistently.

The Jack
2019-01-29, 06:52 PM
Right, my last comment was more 'my opinion', as honestly, I feel a lot of good people do really, really bad things. And A lot of white collar crime, or immorality isn't considered stuff that's evil.

Can you imagine if Detect evil worked in the real world, and it wasn't limited to fiends? Marx's specter.

Worker:"You mean I have to come to work to ruin my hands for ten hours a day, making minimum wage, whilst you make at least four times as much as me with some light book keeping?"
"No I work really hard, I'm constantly working when you don't see me at work, Boss: I took risks to get this business up, also rich kids who get trust funds are the true unfortunates because they all die of drugs, aren't you glad you're not a rich kid with a trust fund?'
Worker: *detect evil*
Boss: "Oh Dangit"

*Whilst I never had this conversation with a boss, I have had a boss spin these stories'


So, I dunno, if you start making people who exploit others appear on detect evil, you're going to kill a lot of people for 'good business sense'

Mystral
2019-01-29, 08:10 PM
Hello, Playgrounders.

There is a group of NPCs in my campaign that lured in low-level adventurers into exploring an unknown dungeon. They lied when they said there would be tons of unguarded loot and treasure, ready for taking, when in fact, they had no idea what is even down there. I ruled them as evil when detect evil was used, but a player of mine raised the point that "Aren't adventurers supposed to go explore unknown areas? Sure, the NPC group downplayed the dangers and advertised the rewards, but at end of the day, every adventurer who entered the dungeon did it of his/her own accord, and knew that they were betting their lives for loot."

It's a good point, although I don't know if I agree enough to rule them as neutral. Any thoughts?

If they are just doing this for a laugh, they are chaotic evil.

It's the equivalent of telling someone that there is gold buried in an unmarked minefield and then getting the popcorn.

If they had some other motives, it really depends on the motives. If, for example, they perceived the adventurers as a threat to their home or family, that wouldn't be evil.

Mystral
2019-01-29, 08:13 PM
I see, softening up the dungeon.

Yeah, that's evil.

The neutral option would have been telling the PCs "Look, there's this dungeon, we have no idea what's in there, but propably some danger and loot. You guys look buff and experienced, so you go in first and have first pick, and once you got enough, we'll see what we can grab. Deal?"

Jay R
2019-01-29, 08:27 PM
There isn't enough information about what they knew to call it a deliberate lie. The way to characterize that act is Neutral Ignorant.

But the DM decided that they were Evil. So they are Evil. I don't assume that that's oily about the single act. Maybe they are bullies, or thieves, or perform some other evil acts.

Frozen_Feet
2019-01-30, 02:04 AM
The act itself? Definitely evil. They're guilty of deception that endangers lives for fun and profit. It's also unlawful. In any legal system worth its salt, lying about risks to exploit the other party is a breach of contract.

But it's also on the pettier side of evil. It would make a Paladin fall, but would not make otherwise good or neutral characters shift alignment. Hell, I could see a particularly dimwitted chaotic good party being guilty of similar deception.

As for the supposed counter-argument... it is, in actuality, a red herring. Why? Because it only establishes adventurers are also liable for their own actions. It does not establish the NPCs as unliable for theirs. An easy comparison can be made: "it's a fireman's job to go in a burning building!" Yeah, that's true, but that doesn't make you a better person for lying about what kind and magnitude of fire they're facing.

King of Nowhere
2019-01-30, 08:57 AM
Is cowardice evil though? I think most people would say no.





depends if it endangers others, though. if cowardice pushes you to sacrifice others in your place, i would classify it as mildly evil.

Slipperychicken
2019-01-30, 09:30 AM
I would, but detect evil is involved.

You can mod it so that detect evil and similar spells and abilities work like their 5e counterparts, which ping off a handful of creature types (i.e. fiend, undead, aberration, fey, celestial, elemental) instead of directly revealing character alignment.

Some examples from 5e:
Detect Evil and Good (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvilandGood.htm)
Dispel Evil and Good (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvilandGood.htm)
Protection from Evil and Good (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvilandGood.htm)

Keeping alignments from having mechanical or lore impact in-universe (i.e. characters can't measure it, abilities don't key off of it) will save your group a lot of headache from the forced-controversy morality questions which typify alignment discussion.

Hackulator
2019-02-01, 04:15 PM
Considering your answer regarding the NPCs motivations, yes they are definitely acting evil. The lied to someone in the hopes of getting them to go do some dangerous stuff purely for the NPCs own profit. This is in and of itself an evil act, though not necessarily enough to push them to evil on their own, so it's entirely up to you whether they show as evil to a Detect Evil spell. To be honest though, you should already know the NPCs alignment if you are introducing them in your game.