Regenerate, like Healing Word every round?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

If a target regains one hit point at the start of every one of its turns, is Regenerate the ultimate "pop a mole" spell?

[Marcloure]

Yes.

And it will hardly get instantly killed with 80+ hp at 13th level

[ad_hoc]

1) It's a 7th level spell.
2) It doesn't work if the character is dead (because a dead character no longer has turns).

It really should not be relied upon to keep a character alive. It is easy for creatures to kill off a character who only has 1hp. It's the same with Healing Word only that is at least only a 1st level spell.

[MaxWilson]

1) It's a 7th level spell.
2) It doesn't work if the character is dead (because a dead character no longer has turns).

It really should not be relied upon to keep a character alive. It is easy for creatures to kill off a character who only has 1hp. It's the same with Healing Word only that is at least only a 1st level spell.

Point #2 hardly matters--at that level, Regenerate is more about the action economy savings against a tough target (like an Ancient Red Dragon) and not so much about insurance against permanent death. If you die, well, the same guy who cast Regenerate on you spends an action on Revivify instead of whatever else he would have done that turn.

[Man_Over_Game]

Something worth noting is that Regenerate has a duration, and nothing about it says that the spell ends when the creature dies. Creature death doesn't inherently mean the end of a spell. As soon as you revive them, Regenerate starts back up. Technically, it didn't stop despite the creature dying, it just didn't have any effect (as corpses can't gain health).

[ad_hoc]

Point #2 hardly matters--at that level, Regenerate is more about the action economy savings against a tough target (like an Ancient Red Dragon) and not so much about insurance against permanent death. If you die, well, the same guy who cast Regenerate on you spends an action on Revivify instead of whatever else he would have done that turn.

The action economy is the point. What were once pretty harmless creatures are now killing characters. The cleric now needs to spend their action to bring the dead character back to 1hp where they will probably die again. And needs to be able to touch them. Meanwhile the dragon is reducing them or another character to 0.

If it doesn't matter that the character is at 1hp then the combat wasn't difficult to being with. Same with if a 7th level spell can be used like this. If that is a good idea then the difficulty is low so anything will work.

[MaxWilson]

The action economy is the point. What were once pretty harmless creatures are now killing characters. The cleric now needs to spend their action to bring the dead character back to 1hp where they will probably die again. And needs to be able to touch them. Meanwhile the dragon is reducing them or another character to 0.

If it doesn't matter that the character is at 1hp then the combat wasn't difficult to being with. Same with if a 7th level spell can be used like this. If that is a good idea then the difficulty is low so anything will work.

If an Ancient Red Dragon spends three attacks on killing a 1 HP character (attack #1 => 0 HP, attack #2 => 2 failed death saves, attack #3 => dead) and another PC spends an action to completely negate the Ancient Red's turn, that's a pretty good action economy deal for the PCs. Either the dragon completely wasted his action, or he wasted three legendary actions.

More to the point, if the Ancient Dragon Dragon breathes fire on the PC instead, that breath weapon is negated on that character at zero action economy cost to the PCs. That's why you use Regenerate.

[ad_hoc]

If an Ancient Red Dragon spends three attacks on killing a 1 HP character (attack #1 => 0 HP, attack #2 => 2 failed death saves, attack #3 => dead) and another PC spends an action to completely negate the Ancient Red's turn, that's a pretty good action economy deal for the PCs. Either the dragon completely wasted his action, or he wasted three legendary actions.

More to the point, if the Ancient Dragon Dragon breathes fire on the PC instead, that breath weapon is negated on that character at zero action economy cost to the PCs. That's why you use Regenerate.

It just takes a couple kobolds (w/an Ancient they are likely to also have more powerful minions too) to kill that character.

It's either that or for the dragon alone the PCs either obliterate the dragon or the dragon obliterates them and the regeneration again doesn't matter.

[Asmotherion]

Technically can be advantageus to prevent you from failing 3 consecutive death saves.

Also a great out of combat healing spell and the only thing that can regrow a limb.

But there are spells such as Heal (heals 70 HP) and the Mass version (Heals 700 HP!) that are far more massive in that they bring an almost dead character to full HP and then some.

For spell economy Healing Spirit is probably the best healing spell out there as it can heal the whole party for multiple rounds and by upcasting it for multiple d6 for each slot higher than 2nd.

[MaxWilson]

It just takes a couple kobolds (w/an Ancient they are likely to also have more powerful minions too) to kill that character.

Yes, that's why I was puzzled when you talked about the dragon attacking the PCs. That's a bad strategy.

If it's kobolds, they're probably already dead long before any PCs hit 0 HP. If it's e.g. an ancient Red Dragon and a couple of Adult Dragon minions, that's a tough fight, and you're going to want all the advantages you can get. Regenerate doesn't cost concentration and is a good bet to use in those kinds of tough fights.

[ad_hoc]

Yes, that's why I was puzzled when you talked about the dragon attacking the PCs. That's a bad strategy.

If it's kobolds, they're probably already dead long before any PCs hit 0 HP. If it's e.g. an ancient Red Dragon and a couple of Adult Dragon minions, that's a tough fight, and you're going to want all the advantages you can get. Regenerate doesn't cost concentration and is a good bet to use in those kinds of tough fights.

"What were once pretty harmless creatures are now killing characters."


I would expect an ancient red to have 50-100 servants of CRs from 1/8 to 10ish.

Kobolds don't have to bunch up. They can be in packs 100ft or more apart. A bunch of them can be winged.

You could have 5-10 wrymlings in there too as well as a bunch of skilled NPCs like mages casting counterspell and the like.

They collect minions.

(I suppose my point is that I would rather save that 7th level slot for the 5+ encounters leading up to the dragon as well as the final fight).

[MaxWilson]

I would expect an ancient red to have 50-100 servants of CRs from 1/8 to 10ish.

Kobolds don't have to bunch up. They can be in packs 100ft or more apart. A bunch of them can be winged.

You could have 5-10 wrymlings in there too as well as a bunch of skilled NPCs like mages casting counterspell and the like.

They collect minions.

(I suppose my point is that I would rather save that 7th level slot for the 5+ encounters leading up to the dragon as well as the final fight).

I didn't suggest using Regenerate for pop-up healing against hordes, only against tough individual monsters like ancient dragons. As Fezzik would say, you use different moves when fighting half an hundred creatures than when you only have to be worried about one.

If you're fighting an ancient dragon at the same as a horde of 50 CR 3 Githyankis (or CR 2 wyrmlings or whatever), boy, I'm sorry for you. That's not easy. Hope you brought some good AoE.

[ad_hoc]

only against tough individual monsters like ancient dragons.

Either the game is too easy or too hard. In any case Regenerate doesn't matter.

I don't know how an ancient dragon would live that long without defending themselves either. Their whole thing is that they terrorize all the land around them and hoard treasure. Solo and ancient red dragon in the same sentence doesn't make any sense.

[MaxWilson]

Either the game is too easy or too hard. In any case Regenerate doesn't matter.

???

Or it's just right?

An Ancient Red Dragon is a double-Deadly encounter for a group of four 15th level PCs. (62,000 XP, when Deadly threshold is only 25,600 XP.) I don't know why you think you'd need to add more stuff to that encounter to prevent it from being "too easy," but it's not "too hard" because you can use stuff like Regenerate to win. It's hard enough to be interesting.


I don't know how an ancient dragon would live that long without defending themselves either. Their whole thing is that they terrorize all the land around them and hoard treasure. Solo and ancient red dragon in the same sentence doesn't make any sense.

I don't understand the connection between your second and third sentences here. "Terrorizing the land all around" makes you more alone than building alliances. A dragon who behaves like that is less likely to be surrounded by powerful allies, and if it's surrounded by weak stuff like kobolds, well, you can kill them long before anyone in the party hits 0 HP--but like I said, if you're fighting an ancient red dragon and a horde of githyanki at the same time, I'm sorry for you. You would do better to try and defeat the enemy in detail instead.

1 Ancient Red Dragon + 50 Githyanki Warriors = 388,000 adjusted XP, which is 15x Deadly for 4 15th level PCs, and 7.7x Deadly for 4 20th level PCs. If you try to fight them all at once and then you die I have zero sympathy for you--you knew what you were getting into.

[Man_Over_Game]

50 worth of anything is pretty scary with 5e's bounded accuracy. I don't take on anything that has 3x the guys than we do, unless we have some secret weapon prepared beforehand (Evocation Wizards, for example)

[ad_hoc]

???

Or it's just right?

An Ancient Red Dragon is a double-Deadly encounter for a group of four 15th level PCs. (62,000 XP, when Deadly threshold is only 25,600 XP.) I don't know why you think you'd need to add more stuff to that encounter to prevent it from being "too easy," but it's not "too hard" because you can use stuff like Regenerate to win. It's hard enough to be interesting.

One side will obliterate the other.

The game is simply not built for 1 solo encounter/long rest as most people here seem to play it. This is also why people think the CR system is bad. It isn't bad, you're doing it wrong.

It's either easy mode or the campaign will end quickly.




I don't understand the connection between your second and third sentences here. "Terrorizing the land all around" makes you more alone than building alliances. A dragon who behaves like that is less likely to be surrounded by powerful allies, and if it's surrounded by weak stuff like kobolds, well, you can kill them long before anyone in the party hits 0 HP--but like I said, if you're fighting an ancient red dragon and a horde of githyanki at the same time, I'm sorry for you. You would do better to try and defeat the enemy in detail instead.


You really should read the red dragon's entry.

Like, the whole thing. It's not 'flavour text'. It's important.

The game is not designed to be stale stat blocks in a white room.

[MaxWilson]

You really should read the red dragon's entry.

Like, the whole thing. It's not 'flavour text'. It's important.

The game is not designed to be stale stat blocks in a white room.

I feel like I already addressed this point, twice.