Did I Rule Constitution Damage Correctly?

[Palanan]

In our last game session, the party fell foul of an xtabay (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/plants/xtabay/), which deals Con damage on a failed Fort save to a sleeping victim. Two of the party fell asleep in short order; one of them was fed upon and took 2 points of Con damage.

Since this was a third-level character, I applied a reduction of 3 hit points to her total, on the basis that her Con modifier was reduced by one (so 1 less per level). I applied this immediately, on the xtabay’s turn, after the character failed her Fort save.

This drew complaints, so my question is, did I correctly apply a hit point penalty owing to Con damage? And if so, should it have taken immediate effect, or was there a certain timespan that needed to elapse first? The wording on Con damage (p. 555 of the CRB) seems to suggest an immediate loss of hit points, but I’d like to know if there’s some wrinkle I’m overlooking.

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[Jeraa]

As far as I can see you did nothing wrong. The effects from the Con damage apply immediately, and reduces the targets current and maximum hit point values as soon as the Con damage is taken. Every 2 points of Con damage reduces the targets current and maximum hit points by 1 per level, so a 3rd level character losses 3 hit points from his current total and maximum total for every 2 points of Con damage.

[Manyasone]

As far as I can see you did nothing wrong. The effects from the Con damage apply immediately, and reduces the targets current and maximum hit point values as soon as the Con damage is taken. Every 2 points of Con damage reduces the targets current and maximum hit points by 1 per level, so a 3rd level character losses 3 hit points from his current total and maximum total for every 2 points of Con damage.

This.
What did the player complain about exactly?

[Rynjin]

Yep, that's how it works. It reduces both current and max HP by 1/level until healed.

[Jeraa]

I can only think of 2 possible ways the players may feel this isn't right. The first is an onset delay. Some afflictions (like some poisons and diseases) have an onset delay before damage is taken. However, not all afflictions have such a delay, and in any case this is not an affliction. Plus, if there was a delay it would have been stated as such.

The other is the players confusing a full round action with a one round action. A full round action begins and ends totally on the characters turn. A one round action starts on the characters turn, continues through all other characters turns, and ends right before the original characters turn in the next round. This ability is a full round action, so it happens entirely on the monsters turn.

I can think of no other reasons the player may have had to argue.

Edit: Well, there is a third way. The putting them to sleep part and the feeding part was done on separate rounds, yes? Because using the sleep pollen takes a standard action, and the feeding is a full round action, they can't be done in the same round.

[grarrrg]

I can only think of 2 possible ways the players may feel this isn't right.
...
Edit: Well, there is a third way.

Fourth way: they think it should reduce Max HP, but not (necessarily*) reduce Current HP.

(*If you're at/near Max it would make perfect sense to take "damage")

[KillianHawkeye]

Fourth way: they think it should reduce Max HP, but not (necessarily*) reduce Current HP.

(*If you're at/near Max it would make perfect sense to take "damage")

But losing your current hp at the same rate as your maximum hp isn't taking damage at all. Yes, you have less hp, but this way the amount of hp you're missing remains the same.

Think about the reverse, like when a character receives a bear's endurance spell to increase their Constitution by 4 points. Should we expect this to only affect their maximum hp and not also their current amount? To me, that would seem like the character has suddenly taken a wound for 2 hp/level.

[HouseRules]

Fourth way: they think it should reduce Max HP, but not (necessarily*) reduce Current HP.

(*If you're at/near Max it would make perfect sense to take "damage")

Or you could play the house rule that characters could have more than maximum hit points under specific circumstances. Healing cannot heal beyond maximum. Let them keep their current hit points without change, and decrease the maximum. They have to remember that while their hit points are above maximum, healing actually hurts them by setting their hit points back to their new lowered maximum hit points.

[KillianHawkeye]

They have to remember that while their hit points are above maximum, healing actually hurts them by setting their hit points back to their new lowered maximum hit points.

Sounds terrible! :smallyuk:

[Rynjin]

Or you could play the house rule that characters could have more than maximum hit points under specific circumstances. Healing cannot heal beyond maximum. Let them keep their current hit points without change, and decrease the maximum. They have to remember that while their hit points are above maximum, healing actually hurts them by setting their hit points back to their new lowered maximum hit points.

...This is not a houserule. This is how Temporary HP, such as from the False Life spell work, save the last clause 0of losing temp HP from healing for...whatever reason. When you're healed while you have temp HP, it just tops up your REAL HP. Temp HP don't get healed under any circumstances, though you can gain more, and the highest amount of temp HP always overwrites the current one from the same source.

You COULD houserule that temp bonuses to Con give temp HP instead though, which is essentially what the Unchained Barbarian does.


But losing your current hp at the same rate as your maximum hp isn't taking damage at all. Yes, you have less hp, but this way the amount of hp you're missing remains the same.

Even if the percentage stays the same (which it doesn't always, see the following example), the whole number is what matters. If you have 12 HP at level 2, and take 2 Con damage, your HP drops to 10. If your max is 12 but you currently have 6, your max drops to 10 and your current drops to 4.

Those real numbers are all that matters. The fact that you had 100% before and now still have 100% or had 50% and now have 40% doesn't matter, the real numbers have both been reduced by the proper amount.


Think about the reverse, like when a character receives a bear's endurance spell to increase their Constitution by 4 points. Should we expect this to only affect their maximum hp and not also their current amount? To me, that would seem like the character has suddenly taken a wound for 2 hp/level.

I think this comes from the fundamental misunderstanding between temporary ability penalties or bonuses, Ability Damage, and Ability Drain. These are three distinct things.

For posterity, here are the general rules on Ability Damage:


Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

A relevant clause is bolded.

Here are the rules on Con damage specifically, which differ slightly from damage to the other 5 stats:


Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.

Bear's Endurance falls under a temporary ability modifier, which has different rules.


Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.


Temporary increases to your Constitution score give you a bonus on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this bonus and add that amount to your current and total hit points. When the bonus ends, remove this total from your current and total hit points.

Yes, this does mean you can die if you're well below your usual total HP when a temporary Con bonus wears off. See: Barbarians.

While this doesn't change anything with the essence of what people are arguing (it works the same way whether you apply the damage rules in reverse or use the penalty rules in reverse) it helps explain WHY things work the way they do, and why your reasoning doesn't quite work.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think you're arguing against a point I didn't make, because I agree with you.

[Rynjin]

I think you're arguing against a point I didn't make, because I agree with you.

Maybe? I thought you were saying that Con damage should reduce current HP beyond its normal reduction when your health was at max. EX a level 1 character with 10 HP taking 2 Con damage should drop its max to 9, and current to 8, instead of both to 9.

[grarrrg]

But losing your current hp at the same rate as your maximum hp isn't taking damage at all. Yes, you have less hp, but this way the amount of hp you're missing remains the same.

A: Was pointing out what 'the players in the situation' might be thinking.
B: You'll note my mention of damage was in quotes (see also Note A)

[Torpin]

per the SRD If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.

[tenshiakodo]

From the Barbarian Rage ability: "In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal."

It could be a case of specific v. general, but I feel it's a relevant example of how changing a character's Constitution score is intended to work.

[KillianHawkeye]

Maybe? I thought you were saying that Con damage should reduce current HP beyond its normal reduction when your health was at max. EX a level 1 character with 10 HP taking 2 Con damage should drop its max to 9, and current to 8, instead of both to 9.

To be honest, I have no clue how you read that from what I posted.

My post was that the changes to current and maximum hp should be equal ("the amount of hp you're missing remains the same"), and then trying to point out how ridiculous not changing current hp would be by showcasing what would happen in the reverse case of a temporary Con boost. Perhaps I could have been more clear.