Druid/Way of the 4 elements Monk build?

[Whiskeyjack8044]

So I have a concept of a Druidic warrior that was trained from childhood to be the defender of a shrine in a sacred grove, but the grove and shrine end up burning down. Oops.

I don't have any experience with Monks or Druids, but even though I'm not a big fan of Multi-classing I think I'm going to start Druid 1, then Monk W4E 19. Mostly for that good good flavor.

So first of all, what 2 druid cantrip's should I pick? I'm thinking shillelagh and magic stone (throwing magic rocks seems more flavorful to the character than darts), but I'm open to suggestions.

Second, I'll get four 1st level spells I believe? Absorb Elements for sure, and Cure wounds is probably a must even though it's not particular elemental-ly. What other two spells should I pick? I'm thinking Mist because of the cool flavor and maybe Entangle?

Third, when I start down the Way of the Four Elements, should I go Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air? Basicly are Strengths saves or Dex saves more useful in general?

As Wood Elf (reskined as a half elf) using point buy, I'll have 16 Dex, 16 Wis, 14 Con, 10 Str, 10 Int, and 8 Char. I think my DC until level 5 will be 13? Unless I take the Mobile Feat.

And Suggestions?

[Daghoulish]

I can dig a druid losing their grove and turning to training their body and soul to protect the next things they need to. So I approve of the multi-class idea.

Druid cantrips, that is a hard one. If you don't think your going to get any magic quarterstaffs or short swords then yes, shillelagh is a good pick. It kinda falls off late game, when you have magical weapons and don't need to turn your club or staff into a d8 weapon because they are naturally d10 weapons. Magic stone is flavorful if not the best cantrip, I bet some people will say guidance over it. However I like flavorful ideas that work, and it does give you a d8 ranged weapon. Your otherwise stuck with the d4 dart.

You don't get 4 druid spells. You can prepare a number of druid spells every morning equal to your druid level + your Wis mod. So at first level you could prepare 4 druid spells every day, but any druid spell. Druids effectively know all their spells and choose which to use that day, so feel free to change out whenever the need arises.

That is entirely up to you. Do you like pulling an enemy towards you and out of position? then take Water Whip. Do you like knocking an enemy away and proning them? Then go Fist of the Unbroken Air. It's very much up to you and which you feel you could take advantage of better.

Once you get a level of Monk, you AC is 10+Dex mod+Wis mod. Meaning your base AC at that point should be 16.

Not sure if there's anything to suggest. Fangs of the Fire Snake give you 20 foot reach on your unarmed attacks, meaning you could Stunning Strike from range later in the game. Fangs of the Fire Snake is a very ki efficient discipline if all you want out of it is reach (1 ki for reach for the whole turn), while giving you the option of going Nova (adding a d10 of fire damage to your unarmed strikes at the cost of 1 ki per strike). It might be nice to get a crowd control discipline if you don't have a wizard or someone else to deal with groups, Shatter isn't terrible and Fireball is always fun.

[Grimmnist]

Shillelagh and Magic Stone make sense as they both let you attack using Wisdom, which you would want high for your spells. The other good option is Guidance to help with skill checks. The only downside of the Wisdom build is that your Martial Art's unarmed attacks will be weaker as those use Dex.

For spells your locks should be Absorb Elements and one of Cure Wounds, Healing Word or Goodberry (I'd probably go Goodberry since you won't have many spell slots). Since you will only ever have 2 spell slots I might go rituals for the remaining choices Detect Magic and Speak with Animals. Notably none of these spells are concentration so if you wanted to take advantage of a concentration slot Entagle (or Faerie Fire depending on party) is a good option.

I would go with Water Whip and the Dex save, but not because Dex saves are necessarily better. My issue with Unbroken Air is that the type of creatures you would want to push further away from you are generally good at strength saves. The inverse is also true, where creatures you would want to pull towards you are generally good at Dex saves but I can see more use cases where you do something like running 30 ft away from the enemy battering your caster before pulling them to you given your high movement speed.

Finally I would not take the mobile feat right away. This build is pretty MAD so I think you will want the ability increases, and Monk already has good ways to move fast and disengage.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Thanks for the advice guys. I think I need to have those d8s since I can't spam flurry of blows, I'll be strapped for Ki early on.

Any advice on tactics? My Ki will be spent doing more damage to more people, but I'll be spending it more often. Other than Water Whip, what are the best, uh, moves I guess?

Right now I'm thinking Water Whip to blast the Big Bad and maybe get the Wizard out of a bind, and Cinder Sweep to blast a few minions at once.

I like the Mobile feat because I don't want to wast my limited Ki on Step of the Wind. I'll Role play my ludicrous speed as being a part of my wind affinity.

I'm reeeeally tempted to take another level of druid just for Wild Shape (and short rest spell slot recovery). It would be for shenanigans out side of combat ("I'll run around the corner and wildshape into a cat before they find me!"). Please talk me out of it.

[Dungeon-noob]

So I have a concept of a Druidic warrior that was trained from childhood to be the defender of a shrine in a sacred grove, but the grove and shrine end up burning down. Oops.

I don't have any experience with Monks or Druids, but even though I'm not a big fan of Multi-classing I think I'm going to start Druid 1, then Monk W4E 19. Mostly for that good good flavor.

So first of all, what 2 druid cantrip's should I pick? I'm thinking shillelagh and magic stone (throwing magic rocks seems more flavorful to the character than darts), but I'm open to suggestions.

Second, I'll get four 1st level spells I believe? Absorb Elements for sure, and Cure wounds is probably a must even though it's not particular elemental-ly. What other two spells should I pick? I'm thinking Mist because of the cool flavor and maybe Entangle?

Third, when I start down the Way of the Four Elements, should I go Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air? Basicly are Strengths saves or Dex saves more useful in general?

As Wood Elf (reskined as a half elf) using point buy, I'll have 16 Dex, 16 Wis, 14 Con, 10 Str, 10 Int, and 8 Char. I think my DC until level 5 will be 13? Unless I take the Mobile Feat.

And Suggestions?
The idea is certainly interesting, but there is one thing i feel i should point out: don't play 4 elements. Seriously, it's probably the worst subclass in the book. It uses the same resource as your awesome main class monk features, is very expensive in ki, and almost every option isn't worth it: the spells tend to be oercosted and/or outleveled by the time you get them, and the 4 remaining options are too small a pool, with fangs of the fire snake and shape water being too expensive for their effects. not to mention the subclass as a whole gives very few options. i get that it works thematicly, but i'd suggest looking to see if you can't fluff another (sub)class to fit, and actually enjoy playing your character. there's no need to take dead levels.

[Grimmnist]

I'm reeeeally tempted to take another level of druid just for Wild Shape (and short rest spell slot recovery). It would be for shenanigans out side of combat ("I'll run around the corner and wildshape into a cat before they find me!"). Please talk me out of it.

I would recommend not to do that, taking the extra level of Druid gives you an extra Cantrip (Guidance is nice but not essential by any means), 2 extra 1st level spell slots per day (+1 max slots and the 1 you regain on short rest), and Wild Shape but you lose out on Monk progression notably Ki points, a limiting resource for your build. Wild Shape does sound like fun flavor and unique ways to solve problems, but I feel Monk already has ways to solve many of those problems. Transforming into a spider to climb up a wall to a balcony loses its luster when you can just run up the wall in humanoid form.

You had also asked about tactics. Monk is a mobile striker, especially if you literally have the Mobile feat, often you will run up on enemy squishies such as archers or casters to take out those hard to reach targets. On your first turn you should probably cast one of either Shillelagh or Magic Stones with your bonus action depending on if you are in range for melee (unless you precast them before the fight). In combat Patient Defense is very good for when you know you will be attacked a lot on the next turn, and once you hit level 5 Stunning Strike is pretty great for incapacitating enemies.

For moves, Water Whip can be used to either pull an enemy caster to you, or pull a melee out of position and away from your party (or just knock them prone if your allies are going right after you). You won't get to learn another Elemental Discipline until Monk level 6, at which point I like Clench of the North Wind because Hold Person is good.


The idea is certainly interesting, but there is one thing i feel i should point out: don't play 4 elements. Seriously, it's probably the worst subclass in the book.

You're not wrong that 4 Elements is mechanically weak, however depending on the style of your campaign it may not be an issue. If you are joining a combat heavy game where the party is made up of optimized builds, then 4 Elements is going to feel very weak and might be frustrating to play. I would recommend you talk to your DM about the campaign to determine if the subclass is appropriate. If it turns out not to be a great fit I would probably recommend the Sun Soul subclass from XGE&SCAG as it kind of fits your flavor.

[Vogie]

I like this concept.

I also like that you can MC quickly into one of the druid subclasses. As you go up the Monk tree, the ability to pause and grab, say, Shepherd Druid for the animal spirits or Dream Druid for the slotless healing. You could also refluff Spores Druid into some sort of Avatar-esque state, giving you THP, toxic touch and a militarized reaction.



So first of all, what 2 druid cantrip's should I pick? I'm thinking shillelagh and magic stone (throwing magic rocks seems more flavorful to the character than darts), but I'm open to suggestions.

Instead of Magic Stone, I'd choose Produce Flame. It's thematic, as you're going to be elemental oriented, and gives you a scaling super-dart of fire you can throw. Another option is Create Bonfire, but it is campaign dependent - great if there are doorways and other choke points, terrible if it isn't. Shillelagh is a must for cantrip #2.

If you want more cantrips, you could switch to Variant human for Spell sniper or Magic Initiate.


Second, I'll get four 1st level spells I believe? Absorb Elements for sure, and Cure wounds is probably a must even though it's not particular elemental-ly. What other two spells should I pick? I'm thinking Mist because of the cool flavor and maybe Entangle?

As other people have stated, you do get 4 spells at the beginning of each day, but can swap them out each long rest. This gives you the ability to find things that are useful and those that aren't. You'll probably always want at least one healing spell, but you can swap between Goodberry, Healing Word and Cure Wounds as you interact with the party


Third, when I start down the Way of the Four Elements, should I go Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air? Basicly are Strengths saves or Dex saves more useful in general?

It depends on your setting. Fist of Unbroken Air is great for knocking people off of cliffs or the side of boats, while Water Whip is great for yanking people off trees and out of windows. I personally prefer Water Whip, but they're both good.

[Sahe]

Regarding the 4E Monk, there is a homebrew out there that feels much better to play, has more and a lot of interesting options and I don't think is overpowered. I would give it a look and ask your GM if you could use that.

[RogueJK]

Even a better option than dipping 1 level of Druid is to go straight Monk with Magic Initiate Druid. That still gets you your 2 cantrips, and you'd only be missing out on 1 more spell per day, plus a few spells known, compared to a Druid 1. The only other benefit from 1 level of Druid is learning Druidic. If you really want to speak Druidic, ask your DM if they'd allow you to take that as a bonus language, based on your backstory.

Magic Initiate will cost you an ASI (unless you decide to switch to Variant Human), but you'd have 1 more Ki Point and access to Monk features 1 level sooner, versus spending the level for the Druid dip.

Something like Absorb Elements would be handy for your 1/day 1st Level spell, since you could take half damage/quarter damage on elemental attacks at 1-6 level, and even once you pick up Evasion at Monk7 you'd still have the ability to only take quarter damage on a failed save. Plus it then empowers your next attack with that elemental damage, to give them a taste of their own medicine (provided they're not immune to the element they're slinging at you). Plus it's a thematically appropriate choice for an Elemental Monk.

Other good choices would be Longstrider, if you want to be even that much faster than a normal Monk, or Faerie Fire, especially if your party includes a Rogue who will love you for the extra Advantage.


As for cantrips, I wouldn't do Magic Stone or Shillelagh. For some reason, Magic Stone doesn't scale its damage like every other attack cantrip. You'd be better off just using a Shortbow instead for 1d6 damage, which Monks are already proficient with, although the bow damage doesn't scale like their unarmed strikes and monk weapons. And Shillelagh isn't very useful for a Monk. You can already attack with a 2 handed Quarterstaff or Spear doing 1d8 damage from Level 1, and still use your bonus martial arts or flurry with your elbows/knees/feet/head/etc. And you'll want to have a high DEX anyway, for AC, Initiative, and unarmed strike/monk weapons attack/damage, so dumping all stats and sticking to Wisdom won't help you out. Besides, you have better things to do with your Bonus Actions than charging up a Shillelagh.

I'd definitely go for Guidance, which is one of the best cantrips in the game. +1d4 to all of your or your party's skill rolls is hard to argue against. I'd then pick Produce Flame or Frostbite, for a good scaling ranged option, which is an area where Monks struggle at mid/high levels. (Four Elements Monks have a couple additional decent ranged options, but like all their abilities they have a fairly high Ki cost, so having a free cantrip option is still nice.) Produce Flame is especially helpful if you decide to switch to a race without Darkvision, like Variant Human to get Magic Initiate at 1st level, since you'll always have a source of light available.


If you do decide to stick with a Druid dip, Wildshape at Druid2 is quite attractive, but I wouldn't dip more than 1 level of Druid. You'll want to max your Monk levels. Four Elements Monks are extremely Ki-starved, even more so than other types of Monks. (There are some homebrew fixes for the Four Elements subclass that alter the Ki costs to make them more reasonable, which would be worth looking into.)

[Grimmnist]

As for cantrips, I wouldn't do Magic Stone or Shillelagh. For some reason, Magic Stone doesn't scale its damage like every other attack cantrip.


It actually scales better than normal cantrips for this build, you create three magical stones with your bonus action and then can throw one as part of an attack action by making a ranged spell attack. Normally this is a downside on Druid as the damage won't go up to 2d8 2d6 at level 5, but since he is primarily going Monk he will get Extra Attack so he should be able to throw two in a turn, making a poor broke man's Eldritch Blast.

[RogueJK]

It actually scales better than normal cantrips for this build, you create three magical stones with your bonus action and then can throw one as part of an attack action by making a ranged spell attack. Normally this is a downside on Druid as the damage won't go up to 2d8 at level 5, but since he is primarily going Monk he will get Extra Attack so he should be able to throw two in a turn, making a poor man's Eldritch Blast.

Magic Stone does 1d6, not 1d8.

Unless he wants Magic Stone strictly for flavor reasons, he'd be better off picking a different cantrip and just using a Shortbow, doing 1d6+DEX damage for both attacks, instead of 1d6+WIS damage for the Magic Stones. (Shortbow has a longer range anyway.)

It's not like he's going to dump DEX and focus just on WIS, so neither Magic Stone nor Shillelagh are useful to him.

[Grimmnist]

Magic Stone does 1d6, not 1d8.

It's not like he's going to dump DEX and focus just on WIS, so neither Magic Stone nor Shillelagh are useful to him.

Whoops, misremembered the damage on Magic Stone, thanks for catching that.

I was assuming he was going to max Wis first based on his cantrip selections. Dex is better for a Monk, but with the Druid dip you can make Wis work and it would improve the Spell Save DC for the Elemental Disciplines.

If it is not the plan to go for a Wisdom based build I agree with Rogue's suggestions about using a Shortbow for ranged and Guidance as one of your cantrips. Though I probably wouldn't take Frostbite or Produce Flame since I think the Shortbow is a better ranged option. For the second cantrip I would take a utility one such as Mold Earth or Druidcraft and might even consider Resistance. Resistance normally isn't great but it's not like you'll be using your concentration much and if you are able to precast it before the fight +1d4 to a saving throw for free is pretty nice.

[Man_Over_Game]

While Shillelagh and Magic Stone are thematic for a Monk (who can attack multiple times), it doesn't do much good to grab those when your attacks normally do just as well. And everyone else came to the same conclusion, too.

However, try to fill a niche that you can't already fill. Concentration spells, like Create Bonfire, would really help in creating an obstacle for your team. Resistance or Guidance can also fill that niche. Thorn Whip might just save an ally from a bad situation.

That, or find a way to make Wisdom your priority. If you can find a way to get your Wisdom to 18 or 20, and your Dexterity wasn't as high, Magic Stone or Shillelagh would be much more likable options.

[ImproperJustice]

Honestly, I would forego the damage cantrips from Druid and pick up Guidance and something utility wise like Mold Earth or Shape Water.
This gives you some fun ways to contribute outaise of combat, and it may be to your benefit to just play variant human and take Magic Initiate Druid instead, so you stay on a good Monk progression which is very important to a 4e Monk.


Now, 4E Monks do have some flaws, but they aren’t quite as bad as some folks say, now that I have seen one in action at Mid Tier. It’s just a matter that you will need to make tactical choices between when it ia best to run around doing typical dodge, flurry stun stuff vs. Go airborne and Fireball the enemy DBZ style for a round, maybe two and be done.

One cool thing with water whip, and Monk mobility is that at level 9+ you can run up walls and whip people towards you. Or leap over a pit (or nasty AoE) and whip enemies into it.
Or heck, leap into the pit with the enemy. You can practically fall from orbit unharmed at mid tier.
Fire Fangs is good as mentioned.

Late game Fireball and Flight are excellent tools in the Monk arsenal.

Just relax and realize you can’t spam the heavy spells, and just use them when conditions are optimal. The rest of the time, do regular cool monk stuff.

[Citan]

So I have a concept of a Druidic warrior that was trained from childhood to be the defender of a shrine in a sacred grove, but the grove and shrine end up burning down. Oops.

I don't have any experience with Monks or Druids, but even though I'm not a big fan of Multi-classing I think I'm going to start Druid 1, then Monk W4E 19. Mostly for that good good flavor.

So first of all, what 2 druid cantrip's should I pick? I'm thinking shillelagh and magic stone (throwing magic rocks seems more flavorful to the character than darts), but I'm open to suggestions.

Second, I'll get four 1st level spells I believe? Absorb Elements for sure, and Cure wounds is probably a must even though it's not particular elemental-ly. What other two spells should I pick? I'm thinking Mist because of the cool flavor and maybe Entangle?

Third, when I start down the Way of the Four Elements, should I go Water Whip or Fist of Unbroken Air? Basicly are Strengths saves or Dex saves more useful in general?

As Wood Elf (reskined as a half elf) using point buy, I'll have 16 Dex, 16 Wis, 14 Con, 10 Str, 10 Int, and 8 Char. I think my DC until level 5 will be 13? Unless I take the Mobile Feat.

And Suggestions?
Hi!
Considering Druid gets few cantrips, I'd suggest just picking Shillelagh if you really want to maximize WIS as a priority, and keep it at that, and otherwise completely drop the usual "optimal" choices (Shillelagh, Thorns Whip, Guidance) and pick flavorful cantrips, aka any two among Mold Earth, Shape Water, Create Bonfire, Druidcraft.

I'd also slightly suggest getting another level of Druid somewhere along the way, possibly not too late. Moon Druid would allow you to make some very nasty surprise tricks and more generally get a big, big boost in versatility. To be fair, Wild Shape in general even with only 1/4 forms would really help you in many ways. Shepherd would make you a very good teammate, if only thanks to the small THP but more importantly advantage on STR checks.

For spells, considering you'll get few slots for any given day, I'd suggest making the most of them. So Absorb Elements indeed, but then Goodberry (1 slot to feed the party for day and can be used as "Spare the Dying" alternative except better), and adapt the two remaining depending on daily needs.
If no specific ideas, I'd argue Detect Magic and Speak With Animals -paired with Persuasion proficiency- are always usable, especially since you can ritual cast them.
Other standard pick would be Fog Cloud or Earth Tremor (deal damage, reduce speed, help party).
If big fight is expected, preparing instead Longstrider (every bit of speed can help) and Healing Words could be worth. Or maybe Faerie Fire to help party.

Overall? Don't think too much about it. The big deal about Druid is that you can change every day, so you'll have many occasions to learn whatever spells are the most useful to party/you're the most comfortable with.


I can dig a druid losing their grove and turning to training their body and soul to protect the next things they need to. So I approve of the multi-class idea.

Druid cantrips, that is a hard one. If you don't think your going to get any magic quarterstaffs or short swords then yes, shillelagh is a good pick. It kinda falls off late game, when you have magical weapons and don't need to turn your club or staff into a d8 weapon because they are naturally d10 weapons. Magic stone is flavorful if not the best cantrip, I bet some people will say guidance over it. However I like flavorful ideas that work, and it does give you a d8 ranged weapon. Your otherwise stuck with the d4 dart.

Not sure if there's anything to suggest. Fangs of the Fire Snake give you 20 foot reach on your unarmed attacks, meaning you could Stunning Strike from range later in the game. Fangs of the Fire Snake is a very ki efficient discipline if all you want out of it is reach (1 ki for reach for the whole turn), while giving you the option of going Nova (adding a d10 of fire damage to your unarmed strikes at the cost of 1 ki per strike). It might be nice to get a crowd control discipline if you don't have a wizard or someone else to deal with groups, Shatter isn't terrible and Fireball is always fun.
I'll have to correct you on that bolded part.
First, all Monk weapons have increased dice, same as unarmed attacks.
Second, Monk is proficient with all simple weapons, including throwable ones.
Third, many races that match Monk class mechanically (and often also thematically) get bonus weapon proficiencies.
So while indeed a regular Monk would have big trouble sustaining ranged attacks, for occasional needs Javelins are enough, or OP can simply pick an Elf variant giving longbow.

Back to @OP: for Disciplines I agree with Daghoulish, start with Fangs of Fire Snake which is a big increase in both offense and defense, then work up your way by swapping Disciplines for more costly ones once you feel comfortable with Ki management.
One decent strategy is to have one discipline be an AOE that you upgrade (Burning Hands -> Shatter -> Fireball) but mainly if nobody else in party has decent blasting.
Hold Person is a very ki-efficient spell, more sticky than Stunning Strike and with stronger condition, but it uses up your action, so give it a chance but don't hesitate to drop it back if too situational or you just don't feel lucky with it. :)
Both Water Whip and Unbroken Air are good really, so it's more a matter of taste, although I would still tend to favor a bit Water Whip because overall a bit less creatures are good against DEX... But it overall simply depends on how you want to use either, and against who.
For example, if you want a tool against casters, then targeting STR is usually the best choice.
If you'd act as a middle liner and want to help people disengage by pushing creatures away, Unbroken Air may be the better (technically with your mobility at mid-level, you could also just go "behind" it and use Water Whip instead).

Once you get level 11, if choosing between both, I'd say Water Whip simply because of easiest synergy with Fly.

As for Mobile, if that really bothers you, then get this streamline build: be a race starting with 17 WIS, pick Shillelagh, grab Mobile feat at level 5 and +1 WIS feat at level 9 (Observant, Elven Accuracy, ???).


Thanks for the advice guys. I think I need to have those d8s since I can't spam flurry of blows, I'll be strapped for Ki early on.

Any advice on tactics? My Ki will be spent doing more damage to more people, but I'll be spending it more often. Other than Water Whip, what are the best, uh, moves I guess?

I'm reeeeally tempted to take another level of druid just for Wild Shape (and short rest spell slot recovery). It would be for shenanigans out side of combat ("I'll run around the corner and wildshape into a cat before they find me!"). Please talk me out of it.
I won't talk you out of it because that's a really good idea. I'll just recommend not picking that second level until you got the hang out of Monk, meaning at least level 6, unless you really really want to have fun with Wild Shape early (in which case definitely pick Moon so you can still use your Monk Attack in same turn).

As for tactics, I'm tired and too lazy to repeat, so plz search posts from me with 4 Element as keywords. You should find some lengthy examples of how to shine as a (4E) Monk. :)


The idea is certainly interesting, but there is one thing i feel i should point out: don't play 4 elements. Seriously, it's probably the worst subclass in the book. It uses the same resource as your awesome main class monk features, is very expensive in ki, and almost every option isn't worth it: the spells tend to be oercosted and/or outleveled by the time you get them, and the 4 remaining options are too small a pool, with fangs of the fire snake and shape water being too expensive for their effects. not to mention the subclass as a whole gives very few options. i get that it works thematicly, but i'd suggest looking to see if you can't fluff another (sub)class to fit, and actually enjoy playing your character. there's no need to take dead levels.
Seriously, you don't know anything about it. Wondering if you ever tried to actually play one...
The only thing that can be put against 4E is indeed the small number of Disciplines known. Although it's perfectly balanced by the fact you can swap them at level up, it can be a bit frustrating to use the same few things for a whole level.

So @OP if you are afraid of getting bored by that "stability" (although it's technically the same for every Monk and most martials in general ^^) I'd ask DM if (s)he would agree to give one extra Discipline known each step (possibly even 2 more at level 3). Won't break anything balance-wise but will give you a real breather in building decisions.


I would recommend not to do that, taking the extra level of Druid gives you an extra Cantrip (Guidance is nice but not essential by any means), 2 extra 1st level spell slots per day (+1 max slots and the 1 you regain on short rest), and Wild Shape but you lose out on Monk progression notably Ki points, a limiting resource for your build. Wild Shape does sound like fun flavor and unique ways to solve problems, but I feel Monk already has ways to solve many of those problems. Transforming into a spider to climb up a wall to a balcony loses its luster when you can just run up the wall in humanoid form.

You're not wrong that 4 Elements is mechanically weak, however depending on the style of your campaign it may not be an issue. If you are joining a combat heavy game where the party is made up of optimized builds, then 4 Elements is going to feel very weak and might be frustrating to play. I would recommend you talk to your DM about the campaign to determine if the subclass is appropriate. If it turns out not to be a great fit I would probably recommend the Sun Soul subclass from XGE&SCAG as it kind of fits your flavor.
Wild SHape is not all about spider (also Wall run comes only at Monk 9, a pretty long way). Using innocent-looking forms to bypass guards, spy, set up trap, travel peacefully, steal things, there are really so many ways to synergize Monk and Druid... :)

And, again, 4 Elements is not mechanically weak. It's as strong as most others. It just has a steeper learning curve and is less streamlined in ki consumption, being equal to others at levels 3-6 then being a bit more demanding up to level 11 then back to great efficiency.

[Chronos]

For healing spells, I wouldn't actually ever take Cure Wounds. There are three times you'll ever want to use healing spells: Case 1 is to get a wounded ally back up near full, before they ever go down. You'll need a whole lot of healing for that, more than you can get from even an upcast Cure Wounds: More like Heal. So that case won't come up for a while (or never, if you're only dipping one or two Druid levels). Case 2, you've got a party member who's just gone down, and you want to get them back on their feet. Any healing will work for that, and it probably won't matter how much, because no matter what it is, one more hit will probably take them to zero again. But both Healing Word and Goodberry are better for that purpose: Healing Word because it only takes a bonus action, and Goodberry because it only takes one berry, and you can hand them out to all of your party members, so whoever is closest can do the healing (and they can heal you, if you're the one who went down). Case 3, combat is already over, and you're patching up before the next one. In this case, Goodberry is also better than Cure Wounds, since it gets 10 points out of a single first-level slot, instead of (at most) an average of 9.5 (with a maxed Wis), and you can control exactly how much you're using (as opposed to wasting points, if you roll more than you need).

The other advantage to Goodberry is that you don't even need to use today's spell slots on it. Each day, you'll usually have a few slots left when it's time for a long rest. So cast Goodberry using those slots, and then save them for tomorrow.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Thanks so much for the help guys. I really like this character in theory. Who knows when I'll get to use him. So I'm definitely dropping Shillelagh for Mold Earth, but I don't know what other cantrip I may take. I may pick up the Druid Magic Initiate just for Shape Water or Gust and Controle Flame, I know those aren't particularly useful but they are thematic.

I know Guidance is a great cantrip, but it doesn't fit this character. He's a drunk and, Wis score not withstanding, he's not really a sagacious person. The one thing he was born to do was taken away from him at the beginning of what his life was supposed to be.

Thanks for setting me right in regards to shillelagh and Magic Stone (I love the idea of Magic Stone and I always want it to be more useful than it is). Maybe I shouldn't dip into Druid at all? I could probably convince a DM to let me have The Gust/Mold/Shape/Control family of cantrip's and the Druidic Language.

I know W4E monks have a bad Rep, but I'm always a sucker for unloved classes. If anyone else has any cool Monk tactics in general, or W4E tactic specifically, I'd still love to see them.

[Citan]

Thanks so much for the help guys. I really like this character in theory. Who knows when I'll get to use him. So I'm definitely dropping Shillelagh for Mold Earth, but I don't know what other cantrip I may take. I may pick up the Druid Magic Initiate just for Shape Water or Gust and Controle Flame, I know those aren't particularly useful but they are thematic.

I know Guidance is a great cantrip, but it doesn't fit this character. He's a drunk and, Wis score not withstanding, he's not really a sagacious person. The one thing he was born to do was taken away from him at the beginning of what his life was supposed to be.

Thanks for setting me right in regards to shillelagh and Magic Stone (I love the idea of Magic Stone and I always want it to be more useful than it is). Maybe I shouldn't dip into Druid at all? I could probably convince a DM to let me have The Gust/Mold/Shape/Control family of cantrip's and the Druidic Language.

I know W4E monks have a bad Rep, but I'm always a sucker for unloved classes. If anyone else has any cool Monk tactics in general, or W4E tactic specifically, I'd still love to see them.
Well, 4E Monk has a very different way of playing from low to high level.
The drastic change is basically access to Fly, which opens all kind of crazy shenanigans since your Monk mobility stacks onto it.
So a basic thing is to set yourself up, then Grapple a guy (either because you built him as such with Expertise or because you successfully Stunning Strike him), then move him up in the air and let him fall for a pretty decent extra damage. Rinse and repeat.

When fighting in enclosed areas, play more as a regular Monk, using walls to move without OA (unless ceiling is high enough to make Fly still a better tactical investment), using either Water Whip or Unbroken Air to position enemies towards friendly AOEs or enabling/disabling opportunity attacks. Try to aggro people so you can soften group (or kill low mobs) with an AOE. Use Hold Person against the big melee guys because usually it has a much better chance to succeed, is more ki-efficient over several rounds, allows criticals, and can be upcasted to affect several at once (people tend to forget that).

At very high level, you can set up your personal ring to cut off one opponent from others with either Wall spell. Or you can use Wall of Fire and combine it with the aforementioned push/pull abilities.

Truthfully though, 4E Monk is really a teamplayer, much like Shadow: however, while the latter is the one setting up AOE effect and the others actually making the most of it, in the case of 4E, except if you multiclass or take some feats (like Ritual Caster: Cleric or Wizard)...
It's the opposite: you are the one maximizing other people's AOE: it makes Monks especially deadly with smart people knowing how to use AOE: you can either maximize damaging ones (Spike Growth especially, but also Wall of Fire and the like) or herd enemies into "conditioning ones" (disable mobility with Plant Growth, Web and the like, visibility with Fog Cloud / Darkness, action economy with Stinking Cloud or upcoming Hypnotic Pattern, etc), if not directly trapping them (like fly-dragging them to drop them into a secured reverse Magic Circle). This holds even truer considering Monk ends with proficiencies in all saves, ability to reroll saves, and can invest Ki to resist all damage, so there are some crazy gambles that actually have a chance for a Monk which would fail for anyone else (except an Ancients Paladin ;)).
More generally, you can help both frontliners and backliners by forcing enemy position, you have ways (although costly sometimes) to force an enemy caster to make a save against a high DC ("upcast" UA/WW), to setup alternative and surprising ways to approach a place with water (Shape The Flowing River is *very* versatile), and you do/finish the job of cleaning up crowds with AOE spells (which you can easily maximize in "effective perimeter" thanks to your mobility).

Then, as any Monk, you have ways to be a big PITA for casters in general (usually weak against CON -> Stunning Strike, or simply land 4 attacks meaning 4 concentration saves even if only against DC 10), ways to help people (pouring potions, using healer kit, Spare The Drying), ways to help spying (Tongues of Sun and Moon, marvelous with Observant and/or Keen Mind)...

[Vogie]

Thanks so much for the help guys. I really like this character in theory. Who knows when I'll get to use him. So I'm definitely dropping Shillelagh for Mold Earth, but I don't know what other cantrip I may take. I may pick up the Druid Magic Initiate just for Shape Water or Gust and Controle Flame, I know those aren't particularly useful but they are thematic.

I'd actually ask your DM if you can get your Elemental Attunement to upgrade instead.

Remember, 4-Elements Monk has this at 3 by default:

Elemental Attunement
You can use your action to cause one of the following effects of your choice within 30 feet:

Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a 1-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you designate for 1 minute.
...which is basically a conglomeration of Control Flame, Shape Water, Mold Earth and Gust, but before they were printed in Xanathar's.

If a player at my table wanted their Elemental Attunement feature to be those 4 cantrips, I'd personally let them. That gives them more cantrip effects, but none of them are offensive. The closest you can do is use Gust to shove someone, or Shape Water into the shape of a staff, freeze it, then attack with it... a terrible use of 3 actions.

[sambojin]

If you're going to go a druid level or two, definitely keep Entangle on your spell list. It's not as good as stunning or paralyzing, but it's honestly not bad. AoE restrain as a Str save vs spell DC(with highish Wis) is nice. 4E also does Dex and Con saves admirably, so this will make you a good power multiplier for your party against nearly any foe. Especially considering the spell targets Str, but screws Dex saves, on top of attack advantage to your party, attack disadvantage to them, no movement, and takes an action to break out of when it lands. Messing with low strength things, that often have high Dex, but hitting that too, is good. For you, and for anything that hits Dex or with attacks.

I would say to throw in an extra druid level there somewhere as well, eventually. And probably Moon at that. Druids get such nice stuff at Druid 2, if you take one, you may as well eventually take the other level as well. There is so little reason to not have things like Giant Spider wall/ceiling movement and restraining webbing, rat/cat/spider social stealth, silly stuff like Frilled Deathspitter paralyze, Female Strider jumping, all on hand at least a few times a day, you just may as well grab them eventually. It's your all-purpose multi-Monk-spell. Yes, running up walls is great when you can hit something plenty of times afterwards. All in one turn. That's what Monks do. All of them. Running up walls for an entire hour is the basic Moon Druid default at lvl2 though. Even if you blow a turn to do something "Monk'y" with wildshape, then revert to multi-punch form immediately afterwards, when you're low on ki, it's often worthwhile blowing that short-rest resource as a Monk/Druid.

If you'd like, wait until lvl6-12 for that second Druid level for proper wildshape. Look at it as "martial art styles/combat forms", to the point of refluffing them slightly as such. Think of it as you taking that form as an semi-illusoriory ki-spirit representation (even though it's 100% real in-game-world, you *are* that beast, but more anime/you-becoming-that-bit-of-the-element-focused), harnessing the true power of that style or school of martial arts.

Think Monkey Magic/Sun Wu Kong/Journey to the West style stuff, mixed up with shaolin animal styles. And anime. And extra awesome monkness.


The Land druid 2lvl dip isn't a bad recommendation. But Moon is essentially a big free resource several times a day (HP/movement/attack styles/vision) that does heaps and always works, even compared to the extra cantrip and spell slot (that sometimes doesn't work) from Land.

YMMV, but Moon is rarely a bad dip for anything purely martial for what it gives you, even if it's just 4-7 prepared spells and two lvl1 slots to cast them with. And Giant Spider(spiderclimb and ranged restrain)/Female Steeder(super jump)/cat/rat/spider(social stealth) and Dire Wolf(trip attack and damage and HP). Oh, and Frilled Deathspitter from Ixalan X-marks-the-spot (ranged paralyze and 3x multiattack, definitely a Dex based attack), Giant Badger (burrow), Jaculi (leap attacks) and Warhorse (carry capacity). Giant Hyena rampage? Dilophosaurus spit blind/paralyze? You'll probably never need to be a Brown Bear at all. This is "Monk Level Awesome Stuff", not "let's roll 2 attacks, on the same turn, yay!". Bears..... Bleh.


It doesn't necessarily have to be all animalistic. There's nothing stopping you refluffing it as Spider/Steeder/Jaculi wind forms (move like a breeze through the house, or like a storm over the mountains, that can strike like lightning, or freeze your unflexible form), Dire Wolf/Warhorse/cat ocean wave forms (the strength of the surge may drag you under, or bowl you over, but is absolute serenity and peace when calm), Giant Badger/Dilophosaurus/rat earth forms (unseen because they are so placed, on the earth or under it, moving freely over and through it, or trapping others in darkness immobile), and Frilled Deathspitter/Giant Hyena/spider fire forms (the raging inferno paralyzes with its consuming rage, and spreads its destruction so quickly, yet it can see through the smoke and lies of perception, anywhere the fire of the mind is unseen or unseeing).

Throw a Deinonychus in Air or Fire if one of those other forms mentioned aren't to your taste (still super quick multi-attack), or an Ape wherever (kind of decent Athletics score there and ranged attacks and kinda-hands), or a Baboon if hands and climb and small seem to be necessary, or a lizard/weasel/mastiff/etc to round out the "feel" of an elemental avatar martial arts style on smaller creatures. You can do whatever you want. Anyway, these are just bare-bones ideas. But Moon Druid 2 offers so much over just Druid 1, it'd be a pity to miss out on all the fun, even from an otherwise purely 4E Monk perspective.

[Citan]

I'd actually ask your DM if you can get your Elemental Attunement to upgrade instead.

Remember, 4-Elements Monk has this at 3 by default:

...which is basically a conglomeration of Control Flame, Shape Water, Mold Earth and Gust, but before they were printed in Xanathar's.

If a player at my table wanted their Elemental Attunement feature to be those 4 cantrips, I'd personally let them. That gives them more cantrip effects, but none of them are offensive. The closest you can do is use Gust to shove someone, or Shape Water into the shape of a staff, freeze it, then attack with it... a terrible use of 3 actions.
This is a great suggestion! It indeed would change anything in power but let you freely pick other cantrips.
+100

[sambojin]

As a very minor point, if you can reliably get advantage, all the "proper" ranged attack forms listed can also benefit from Rogue's Sneak Attack. Or just go stealthy and hide. Kind of food for thought, just because if you get to high enough level, 4E starts sucking worse than normal. Having a bit of SA probably can't hurt. Or, essentially, less 4E is better for 4E. High level monks don't really run out of ki, just 4E doesn't scale that easily, so use something (anything, be it magic, SA, AS, anything, that does).

But other than the standard Monk chassis goodness of multi-hit and stun, I'm still kind of at a loss for what a 4E Monk can actually do that's better than a pure Grassland or Shepherd or Moon Druid could with a ki/wildshape form fluff overhaul. Maybe with one level of Monk for +Wis AC. Or Cleric. Or Barb for Moons. Or two levels of whatever takes your fancy. Honestly, anything. Just not any more than one of Monk.

Druids just do 4E Monk better. Even pure melee with a bit of extra BS. Yes, you'll have to stat/ASI/feat into it. But proper magic and even basic wildshape scaling up to lvl8, as well as class features, just kind of makes them "better at stuff". So refluff a bit of nature over to ki/elemental/spirity-combat-avatars and do that I reckon.

And Druids are far from an optimal class.....

[Citan]

As a very minor point, if you can reliably get advantage, all the "proper" ranged attack forms listed can also benefit from Rogue's Sneak Attack. Or just go stealthy and hide. Kind of food for thought, just because if you get to high enough level, 4E starts sucking worse than normal. Having a bit of SA probably can't hurt. Or, essentially, less 4E is better for 4E. High level monks don't really run out of ki, just 4E doesn't scale that easily, so use something (anything, be it magic, SA, AS, anything, that does).

But other than the standard Monk chassis goodness of multi-hit and stun, I'm still kind of at a loss for what a 4E Monk can actually do that's better than a pure Grassland or Shepherd or Moon Druid could with a ki/wildshape form fluff overhaul. Maybe with one level of Monk for +Wis AC. Or Cleric. Or Barb for Moons. Or two levels of whatever takes your fancy. Honestly, anything. Just not any more than one of Monk.

Druids just do 4E Monk better. Even pure melee with a bit of extra BS. Yes, you'll have to stat/ASI/feat into it. But proper magic and even basic wildshape scaling up to lvl8, as well as class features, just kind of makes them "better at stuff". So refluff a bit of nature over to ki/elemental/spirity-combat-avatars and do that I reckon.

And Druids are far from an optimal class.....
This whole post, and the last sentence, shows that sadly you made yourself a view on both classes that is very far from reality. :)

Druid is in the top tier class, to start, because of that nice mix of spells, class features and archetype features, all being extremely useful, versatile and creative.

But that is beside the point. Comparing Druid and Monk is as inadequate as comparing Paladin and Bard.
Those simply do not fulfill the same role, as a consequence they simply have different strengths.

If one had to put it in one word: resilience.
Monks end as the top class in terms of resilience, even going past Barbarians and Ancients Paladins. Only a level 20 Moon Druid can trump those.

Besides that, while beast forms are great, none of them is really good all around until pretty high level (well, personal opinion of course, I guess this is a strong YMMV).
And getting as good as Monk with beasts is not just requiring small investment. You are talking about a guy that can get 3 attack per round for free from level 5 onwards, that has several powerful defensive features, several immunities, and ability to stun on the fly.
Elemental forms are good though for sure but that's a level 10 stand already.

Of course Druid can set up some classic 4E Monk tactics more easily, simply because, well, he has all those control spells at disposal, and largely enough slots for it.
As far as exploiting it? Multiattack doesn't allow Grapple, so as a beast you'd have to waste a whole action Grappling. You wouldn't have any bonus speed (besides Longstrider), unless you get Haste (meaning Land Druid, meaning stuck with small creatures that cannot grapple well). Using Thorns Whip is free but also use your whole action, and do nothing on a failed attack.

You may think that Druid is better at 4E stuff than 4E, but it's simply an illusion overall. Once you start digging beyond the surface you realize that Monk (and any martial in general) earns places alongside Druid (and casters in general) for good reasons. Although I certainly agree that Druid dip allows to be more conservative of Ki by sometimes relying on cantrips, exactly like a 2-level dip in Rogue can be great for all Monks because allowing to be more conservative on Ki when needing Dash/Disengage.
If we had to make a very broad category, as far as environmental control goes, Druid is the enabler and Monk the exploiter. Druid would need several defining building decisions (feats first) to fulfill the "exploiter" part as well as Monk.

However, for a character with mid-level ceiling (like ending 12-13), then I'd completely agree with you that *if primary objective is to control through mobility*, then making a mix of Monk and Grassland Druid or Sorcerer *may* be better than pure Monk.
Because you get a much wider array of spells and earlier. so it's easier to play tactical without relying so much on friendlies.
But it also means you don't get as many "free" built-in features either, so you have to use more spells.
It also means you have more resources relying on long rest (which I personally usually view as a good thing to be honest because I'm a guy that wants to put eggs in various places, but it's not necessarily the optimal decision depending on campaign and party composition).
And it also means lesser HP, AC and resilience in general.

So, as usual, as always even in 5e, you always end getting recalled by the nice balance devs brought (unless, of course, you play in games with only few encounters per day or with zero short rests).

[djreynolds]

Thorn whip might be stronger than water whip. There is no save, but large is as big as you get in terms of pulling.
Water whip, though could pull a dragon... if it failed it's save. Probably not going to.