Win initiative - what's next

[Oerlaf]

Disclaimer: The build I'm creating is an AL-legal build and I try to build it without accounting on any magic items.

I have an idea of a build that potentially wins initiative in every combat at level 20.

Human Variant 8/16/10/8/16/14 starting ability scores.

Gloomstalker 8/Swashbuckler 8/Glamour Bard 4

Human bonus feat: Alert
First ASI (CL 4): Sharpshooter
Others ASI(CL 8, CL 12, CL 16, CL 19) go into Dex and Wis and total 8/20/10/8/20/14 at level 20.

We have a +20 bonus to initiative: +5(dex)+5(wis - gloom stalker) + 2(cha - swashbuckler)+5(alert)+3(Jack of All Trades)=+20.

From bard we can cast enhance ability spell to gain advantage on initiative checks - we choose cat's grace option and initiative is a dexterity check.

But now's the question is how to deal damage:

If I have a non-magical longbow and assume no hunter's mark.

First round: 1d8+15+4d6 (sneak attack), 1d8+15 (extra attack from ranger), 1d8+15+1d8 (gloom stalker) - 77 average damage on the first turn in combat
Other rounds: 53 average damage.

This damage is subpar compared to Human Fighter 20 with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter.

If I sacrifice one ASI in favor of a crossbow expert, I have a +19 bonus on initiative and have the following options:

Hand Crossbow
First round: 1d6+15+4d6, 1d6+15, 1d6+15+1d8 - 74 average
Other rounds: 1d6+15+4d6, 1d6+15, 1d6+15 - 69 average

Heavy Crossbow
First round: 1d10+15+4d6, 1d10+15, 1d10+15+1d8 - 79 average
Other rounds: 1d10+15+4d6, 1d10+15 - 55 average.

[Finney]

What is the impetus behind designing a build to go first in combat when none of your class features rely upon or take advantage of it? Mind you, going first in combat is always nice but you're investing a lot to achieve that goal.

You could swap the swashbuckler archetype with assassin, which would reduce your initiative bonus by two. But you would get advantage on attack rolls against anyone that hasn't taken a turn yet, which is very likely with +18 to initiative checks. It would slightly bump your damage on the first turn, since you would be more likely to hit and more likely to critically hit with advantage on all the attack rolls.

[Mercurias]

Wouldn't it make a little more sense to plan a build that comes online earlier than level 20?

[Orc_Lord]

You will literally be going first and doing nothing which is kind of a waste.

Here is a different approach, what if you always had surprise instead? That means you will always act before the surprised NPCs.

Might as well take advantage of assassin since it gets the biggest boost from going first.

Ranger Gloomstalker 5/Assassin Rogue 15. This will give you high enough stealth and really good damage. You can even take a few levels of Bard if you want.

[Keravath]

Just a note, I didn’t understand your ASIs. They are received based on Class level and not character level. So you would get 2 ASI from ranger at 4,8 then 2 ASI from rogue at 4 and 8 and finally one more ASI at bard 4. You will still get 5 ASI but the last would be at level 20 .. not 19.

Other than that .. it is cool to go first but an alert gloomstalker ranger is already very likely to go first with a +13 to +15 depending on your wisdom and assuming a max dex.

Also, as mentioned, the assassin at least gets advantage on anyone they go before which also enables sneak attack. In addition, if the DM actually gives you a surprise round you get autocrits which goes farther with the gloomstalker extra attack in the first round.

So I’d be tempted by the ranger rogue suggestion.

[PeteNutButter]

If you want to go first you need to do something on that round that has a significant impact on gameplay. That generally means preventing enemy attacks either by killing enemies or by CCing them. If you can kill them in one round it really doesn’t make a huge difference whether or not you go first, unless they can kill you in one round. That’s why I think CC is the stronger option, meaning war wizard most likely.

Now assuming we go with the gloomstalker approach you should be able to use that first turn to at least kill some enemies. Giving yourself advantage to hit from asssassin is a nice boost, combined with gloomstalkers extra attack and maybe 2 levels in fighter you can make 6-7 attacks at advantage. Toss on sharpshooter and you’ve got yourself a big chunk of damage. That’s a very common build, that has a lot more focus going on other than winning initiative, but can easily get in +10-15 range over time.

Note: When planning an AL build you can and should expect to have +1-3 weapons at the appropriate level. These items are on the forever green list and are generally top priority for any martial.

[KorvinStarmast]

Get a poison that inflicts the poisoned condition; if you strike first, and the enemy is poisoned, they have disadvantage on various things for the first turn.

Poisoned
• A poisoned creature has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

Helps the whole party, except for all of those things immune to poison. :smalltongue:

[Bloodcloud]

That does not seem all that good.

Assassin rogue would at least capitalize on going first. You are also super spread out.

Gloomstalker/assassin looks more like a great alpha strike guy. Barbarian also gets the advantage on init permanently - and you could get some decent athletic going with rage advantage and expertise.

So, Gloomstalker 3/Assassin 3/Barbarian 7 would at least pile up incredible first strike capacity. Two levels of fighter (for action surge purposes) seem near mandotary here at some point.

[Snowbluff]

I had a friend in AL make a War Wizard with the feat for more init. He wasa good because he could CC everyone before they went.


Here is a different approach, what if you always had surprise instead? That means you will always act before the surprised NPCs.

Might as well take advantage of assassin since it gets the biggest boost from going first.

A Surprise NPC won't be surprised anymore if their turn in the surprise round goes before you.

[Orc_Lord]

A Surprise NPC won't be surprised anymore if their turn in the surprise round goes before you.

That's not true.



If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

So you do roll initiative with everyone else, but you are still surprised.

[SkipSandwich]

Thief Rogue 20 could be an interesting option, as you might get two full rounds of action before anyone else can take a single turn. Invest in Wands or Staves with good AoE or CC spells to maximize the impact of those first two turns then do normal rogue stuff from there.

"No one knows his name, when asked he gives a different answer every time, so most folks here just call him "The Kid". And a'fore you think yourself some hotshot big city conjurer with your "Arcane Traditions" and your "Spell Masteries" know those wands a his aint for show. I've seen him snap off two spells and chug two beers ina single breath, and I bet your fancy wizard schooling wont do you a lick of good when your hex'd six ways to sunday before your first syllable"

[Snowbluff]

That's not true.

So you do roll initiative with everyone else, but you are still surprised.

Tis true. Surprise ends on their first turn. Then if you went after them in the surprise round, you don't get the free crit.

[Orc_Lord]

Tis true. Surprise ends on their first turn. Then if you went after them in the surprise round, you don't get the free crit.

I wanted you to be wrong so bad, but by RAW you are not. I think it's a stupid rule, but you are correct even though realistically speaking this makes no sense.

Rogue sneaks up to an orc eating lunch with a Stealth roll 17
Passive perception of Orc 12. Orc is unaware

Rogue initiative 5, Orc 20
Surprise round
Orc at 20...munch munch
Rogue fires arrow.. can't get assassinate bonus because the munching Orc went first without even being aware someone is there

Arg.

But in AL this would be how it would work.

[Man_Over_Game]

It's done the way it is to try and make Surprise simple, in order to make it more available as an option, but most DMs don't use it too often anyway.

A simple fix I offer at my own tables is to have creatures who are unaware of a threat still be surprised after their turn until the end of the round. If they are still unaware of any threat, they start the next round Surprised as well.

Basically, if initiative is relevant but there's no reason for the creature to be aware of a threat, they continue to be unaware.

[Palfatreos]

+1/2 proficiency bonus Jack of all trade (lvl2) bard
+WIS bonus (lvl3) gloomstalker ranger
+CHA bonus (lvl3) swashbuckler rogue
+minimum 10 on your d20 roll because reliable talent working with jack of al trade(Lvl11) rogue

still got 4 lvls left.

[Snowbluff]

It's okay I'm only so acquainted with the rules because I ran with an assassin buddy for many AL sessions.

+1/2 proficiency bonus Jack of all trade (lvl2) bard
+WIS bonus (lvl3) gloomstalker ranger
+CHA bonus (lvl3) swashbuckler rogue
+minimum 10 on your d20 roll because reliable talent working with jack of al trade(Lvl11) rogue

still got 4 lvls left.

War Wizard for Int to Init and the Alert feat.

[Oerlaf]

+1/2 proficiency bonus Jack of all trade (lvl2) bard
+WIS bonus (lvl3) gloomstalker ranger
+CHA bonus (lvl3) swashbuckler rogue
+minimum 10 on your d20 roll because reliable talent working with jack of al trade(Lvl11) rogue

still got 4 lvls left.

Reliable Talent doesn't work with Jack of All Trades since the newest Sage Advice has come out: https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf