Ideas for a Wizard Thief - DND 5e

[possumtwo]

Hey Guys! Long time reading, first time posting.

I am starting a new campaign this Friday and I have an idea for a character, but I wanted everyone's input. I've been DM'ing for YEARS, so I obviously have a lot of character ideas and now I have the problem of deciding which to play.

I really like the idea of a stealthy wizard. Starting as a Wizard with Urchin background and eventually dip 3 (maybe more?) levels into Rogue... Arcane Trickster for the Mage Hand buffs. But, I have several routes I could take. HELP ME DND COMMUNITY!!

**Keep in mind I have all the published books, so everything is fair game**

1) Race - I like Rock Gnomes (for the bonus to Int. and Con. and advantage to Magics) and Var. Humans (to grab Resilient feat in Constitution), but please give me other ideas.

2) School of Magic - Illusion seems like an easy option for a Wiz/Thief, but I really like the RP opportunities with Transmutation. What other schools would be viable?

3) When to dip into Rogue? - I don't want to start level 1 as Rogue because I'd like access to the spells right away. That being said, if the DM starts us at a higher level, I will start level 1 in Rogue and then start the Wizard path. However, the big question here is... "How many levels of rogue should I go into and when?"

4) Feats? - This is my biggest downfall as a player and I know it. I become enamored by all the shiny feats; however, which feats would actually be valuable, when should I grab them, and when should I increase the stats? I would probably want Int maxed out asap and Dex fairly high?

HELP ME ASAP COMMUNITY OF FELLOW NERDDSSSS!!!!!

[MilkmanDanimal]

Forest Gnome, start with three levels of Rogue and go Mastermind, for no other reason than the Bonus Action ranged Help action. Then go Illusion Wizard the rest of the way. Cast Illusion spells to mess with your opponents, use Help at range to give your teammates advantage in combat, your enemies never know whether it's you or the illusions messing with them. Very much a character I want to play at some point.

[RogueJK]

Another great route for a Wizard/Rogue is a High Elf or Half Elf Bladesinger and Arcane Trickster multiclass.

Bladesong is gained at Wizard2, and boosts your speed and allows you to add your INT to both AC and Concentration, which is handy for a Wizard/Rogue who plans to heading into melee for Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + Disengage strikes. (This works especially well for a primary Rogue with just a 3 level Bladesinger dip, for Bladesong and 2nd Level spells for Shadow Blade.)

Keep in mind that Sneak Attack doesn't apply to spell attacks, only DEX-based weapon attacks. But you can use it with spells that create Finessable weapons like Shadow Blade, and spells that utilize weapon attacks like Booming Blade.

Unfortunately, unless your DM is willing to bend the rules, it's only available to Elves. So no Gnomes.


As for when to multiclass, I'd start with at least 1 level of Rogue. Starting Rogue is ideal for skill proficiencies and beginning HP. Maybe start with 2 levels of Rogue if you plan to rely on Cunning Action's Hide/Disengage a lot from the start. If you're a High Elf or Forest Gnome, you'll at least have 1 cantrip from the start, to give you a bit of basic magical ability before you take your first Wizard level.

Then take 2-5 levels of Wizard. You'll want to push through for at least your first Wizard Subclass ability at Wizard2, and most likely 2nd level spells at Wizard 3, the ASI at Wizard 4, or maybe 3rd level Wizard spells at Wizard5, before taking more Rogue levels.

Then take the next 1-2 levels of Rogue to get you to Rogue3. Or don't. If you plan to be primarily a caster, and don't plan to rely on high damage melee Sneak Attacks augmented by Booming Blade and Shadow Blade, then 1 level of Rogue is sufficient. Stick to straight Wizard after 1st level. Or even just go straight Wizard without Rogue levels, simply relying on your Background for some basic thief-like abilities.


For an example melee Bladesinger/Arcane Trickster, relying on a Rapier with Cunning Action Disengage boosted by Booming Blade and Shadow Blade, I'd start with a High Elf with the Booming Blade cantrip and high DEX and INT, begin with 2 levels of Rogue, and then go Rogue2/Wizard4 for 2nd level spells and an ASI, take your 3rd level of Rogue to get +1d6 Sneak Attack and Arcane Trickster features at Rogue3/Wizard4, and finally go either all Rogue or all Wizard from there, depending on whether you want to be more of a Rogue or more of a Wizard.

If you want to be primarily a caster, without the melee Sneak Attack/Disengage/Spells shenanigans, then Gnome is a good choice, with either 1 level of Rogue then all Wizard, or no levels of Rogue and just the Urchin/Criminal background.

[BoxANT]

Goblin! You get 1/2 Cunning Action and a mini sneal attack.

Urchin background

Wizard (conjuration), to conjour thieves tools, rope, crowbar, etc

Level 4 feat take Quick-Fingered (UA) for expertise in slight of hand and can use it as bonus action.

Then if you cast Expeditious Retreat, you basically have Cunning Action.

Take Booming Blade for sure.

[Orc_Lord]

I fell your pain on the DMing for years and getting to play. It's like you don't want to waste the character by messing it up because it's a rare opportunity.

I am going to challenge your concept, because I find that it helps me so maybe it will help you as well.

What about a gnome or wood eof druid (any archetype but moon)?

Land for more spells or go the Fey route.

You sneak in as a spider, snake etc. Go human form, steal the thing, transform back to an animal, so the thing can't even be seen and you sneak out.

You get spells, thievery and you can also control which is what wizards do.

[Vekon]

So, I had a character who ran a similar theme. When I stopped playing him, he was 4 AT Rogue/5 Divination Wizard, halfling. Though I did start at a higher level and had access to spells even though I started rogue. The obvious shtick was being able to reroll a ton of dice, as eventually I took the Lucky feat. My DM was happy to play with the theme and gave me homebrewed items and powers that gave me control over various d20 rolls. By the time I maxed dex, I had the gloves of thievery and ended up with a +18 to sleight of hand checks.

As far as other arcane traditions, you're right in the usefulness of both transmutation and illusion, but a well-placed portent die is phenomenal more often than not.

Feats aren't nearly as important as maxing your Dexterity and Intelligence. Remember that increasing your modifier by +1 is a +1 to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, stealth checks, acrobatics checks, sleight of hand checks, dex saving throws, initiative, and so on. Can't think of a feat that would be better than that; you already have access to find familiar, ritual casting, and respectable damage through booming blade, shadow blade, and sneak attack.

Boosting Int will be more useful if playing into the illusion school, since you'll occasionally have people rolling against your spell DC to suss out your spell effects. Also important if you plan on casting more save spells. Suggestion, Tasha's, etc.

[Mercurias]

I've got a character just like what you're describing, and it's waiting for me to have my main character die off.

What I did for mine was start off as a High Elf (for the Cantrip and stats - I picked Minor Illusion), then go for Arcane Trickster until level 4. This will give you your ASI or Feat, plus 1st level spells and your amazing Rogue skill set and gear. After that, I would start leveling Wizard for Illusion. I probably wouldn't go further than level 9 in Arcane Trickster for Magical Ambush, and the rest I'd put into Illusion Wizard.

My personal goals for the set up described above was to make a stealthy thief who could make use of illusions and other spells to debilitate enemies, and to make controlling spells have a higher chance of landing by utilizing Magical Ambush for spells like Hold Person which require saves.

If you wanted to play a more acrobatic combatant type of character who can tank in emergencies, I'd pick Bladesinger for the Wizard school instead. That would give you chances to crank your AC sky-high in a pinch.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would just recommend straight Arcane Trickster with Ritual Caster. You'd be surprised how much mischief and magic you can do with just a familiar, Mage Hand Legerdemain and Minor Illusion. Pretend to be a clergyman with Ceremony, or use Speak to Animals to get an edge.

Maybe tack on a few levels of Wizard, but it'd mostly be for utility than anything else.

As for what school, I'd really recommend Transmutation. Not only can you make some really interesting things with converting iron to wood (and then shaving the wood down to what you need it to be), but spells like Alter Self, Enlarge/Shrink or the such are perfect for a spellthief. Don't forget that the universal goal of the Transmuter is to make a Philosopher's Stone for immortality or the transmutation of gold, and what thief ignores that?

[opaopajr]

Why not just Wizard Urchin, pick a school, and run with that? :smalltongue: What are you getting out of "optimizing" that is so mission critical? The game has three pillars, (combat, explore, & social,) and part of the fun is how one's PCs adapt to their restrictions to solve the same challenges.

Outside of Urchin benefits, like Thieves' Tools & Local City familiarity, what are you really looking for? :smallsmile:

[hwem]

You could also do any pure wizard with a thief-like background for flavor. You don't have to multi class since wizards already have spells that can manipulate and be sneaky, thanks to its wide range of spells.
I'm planning on doing a bladesinger with mercenary background to be a bladesinger-turned mercenary.
You could do something like that too!


Why not just Wizard Urchin, pick a school, and run with that? :smalltongue: What are you getting out of "optimizing" that is so mission critical? The game has three pillars, (combat, explore, & social,) and part of the fun is how one's PCs adapt to their restrictions to solve the same challenges.

Outside of Urchin benefits, like Thieves' Tools & Local City familiarity, what are you really looking for? :smallsmile:

I agree with this. Wizards are typically those that study a lot. So with a thief background, you could be a wizard thief. I don't believe it' anything farfetched at all but completely appropriate. I you want to be a trickster, you could be an illusionist with a proper background for a thief. You could also be more of a mercenary by choosing a martial archetype like war, abjuration, or blade singing and mix it with another background to be a rogue-like wizard, especially blade singing. I think there are many options here without the need for multi classing and such due to wizard's ability to practically do anything.

[hwem]

sorry for the double post.

[Maelynn]

The 'best' suggestion greatly depends on whether you start at level 1 or higher - you state you want your magical abilities available at once, that means a lot of options are out the window if you start at level 1. Ask your DM if you can start at level 3, so that you can at least get into your archetype from the get-go.

If not, then my suggestion for level 1 would be to go Rogue and use VHuman to get the Magic Initiate feat (not necessarily Wizard, could also be another class). With the Urchin background you can make it a story about a young kid who had to steal and stealth for a living, but had a talent for magic that it never thought was special. At level 3 it has realised the magic is strong with this one and becomes Arcane Trickster, after which it turns to the Wizard side and starts getting levels there.

If you can start at level 3, I wouldn't bother with Magic Initiate and just go straight Arcane Trickster. In that case I'd go for Forest Gnome or High Elf, because of their affinity with magic.

[opaopajr]

[...] If not, then my suggestion for level 1 would be to go Rogue and use VHuman to get the Magic Initiate feat (not necessarily Wizard, could also be another class). With the Urchin background you can make it a story about a young kid who had to steal and stealth for a living, but had a talent for magic that it never thought was special. At level 3 it has realised the magic is strong with this one and becomes Arcane Trickster, after which it turns to the Wizard side and starts getting levels there. [...]

Vuman Rogue with Magic Initiate, (assuming Mage Hand + Minor Illusion cantrips)... This also sounds quite cool! :smallcool: And still the choice between Thief & Arcane Trickster Archetypes are both tempting. Good idea!

Again it comes back to what type of playstyle desires, or game table expectations, are involved. :smallsmile: If it's expected all combat pillar, well... I guess the dance of 'builds & dips' is important. :smalltongue:

[Vogie]

As for what school, I'd really recommend Transmutation. Not only can you make some really interesting things with converting iron to wood (and then shaving the wood down to what you need it to be), but spells like Alter Self, Enlarge/Shrink or the such are perfect for a spellthief. Don't forget that the universal goal of the Transmuter is to make a Philosopher's Stone for immortality or the transmutation of gold, and what thief ignores that?

If it's going to be a thief in a heist, Divination would be useful as well, allowing you to scope out the unknown unknowns in advance.