A Player Wants To Become Hades, Basically

[JNAProductions]

So, I'm running a new campaign. I've currently accrued two players-one that we'll call M, who is pretty much irrelevant to this question, and the other we'll call J. J's character wants to become a demon lord.

Currently, they are level 2, but J has made some strides towards his goal in that he's acquired a small cadre of loyal goblins to his side. Five, to be exact.

Now, obviously Demonic Apotheosis is a long-term goal, but does anyone have any recommendations on good intermediary steps, or any ideas in general?

Edit: Okay-to make myself clearer, J is himself referencing "Demon Lord", but I don't think he means it in the strict D&D sense.

He more just wants to become a ruler and overseer of lost and damned souls.

Also, J is playing a Shepherd Druid, and likely will not be multiclassing to anything except Monk.

[noob]

So, I'm running a new campaign. I've currently accrued two players-one that we'll call M, who is pretty much irrelevant to this question, and the other we'll call J. J's character wants to become a demon lord.

Currently, they are level 2, but J has made some strides towards his goal in that he's acquired a small cadre of loyal goblins to his side. Five, to be exact.

Now, obviously Demonic Apotheosis is a long-term goal, but does anyone have any recommendations on good intermediary steps, or any ideas in general?
Step 1 die and lose all class levels and become a minor demon.
Step 2: rise in power as a demon up to demon lord power.
Usually everybody fails at step 2 except for a select few.

[JNAProductions]

Step 1 die and lose all class levels and become a minor demon.
Step 2: rise in power as a demon up to demon lord power.
Usually everybody fails at step 2 except for a select few.

Okay-to make myself clearer, J is himself referencing "Demon Lord", but I don't think he means it in the strict D&D sense.

He more just wants to become a ruler and overseer of lost and damned souls.

[Azgeroth]

well, a little more clarity on what the player means by Demon Lord would be useful, if it isn't infact, a 'Demon Lord', ruler of x of the 9 hells..

so i'm going to assume he means, he wants subjects, but he wants to own more than their lives, for longer than his..

short of becoming a devil, or some how gaining insight into how contracts on souls are ruled, gaining their own planar domain, and getting creatures to agree to service.. sign a deal with a devil, or demon, giving him power, and subjects.. i recommend warlock.

[JoeJ]

The only way of becoming a demon lord that I can recall being mentioned in this edition is to conquer an entire level of the Abyss, which is how Lolth did it. So the first step is probably to become at least a minor deity.

I would really advise against allowing this, however, as the kind of campaign that would justify even a remote possibility of a PC becoming a demon lord would thoroughly sicken most players.

[JNAProductions]

Where's the quote...

This is exactly what he's looking for:


Would you be the savior of the broken
The beaten, and the damned?

He is looking to become the ruler of the lost and damned souls. So maybe closer to devilish than demonic, but I guess what I'm looking for here is a way to structure it BEFORE he reaches a time when he can realistically do it, so that I can drop hints ahead of time and have a pathway in place.

[Unoriginal]

So, I'm running a new campaign. I've currently accrued two players-one that we'll call M, who is pretty much irrelevant to this question, and the other we'll call J. J's character wants to become a demon lord.

Currently, they are level 2, but J has made some strides towards his goal in that he's acquired a small cadre of loyal goblins to his side. Five, to be exact.

Now, obviously Demonic Apotheosis is a long-term goal, but does anyone have any recommendations on good intermediary steps, or any ideas in general?

Sure: it can't be done.

Demon Lords is a status that require you to be a Demon, then get pumped with enough Abyss juice to be able to claim some parts of a layer for yourself by destroying or enslaving all your opponents (ie every single demons in the layer). In 5e, mortals don't become demons, or at least not in any way that leave anything resembling the mortal in the demon's body and mind.

J should try to find a different goal that can be accomplished, like becoming a god. Or arguably a Duke of Hell, given you don't technically need to be a devil for it.

I suppose if you were generous you could say that anyone who get to control some of an Abyss Layer gets to be called "Demon Lord", even if they're not a demon, but it rather cheapen the concept IMO.

[JNAProductions]

Sure: it can't be done.

Demon Lords is a status that require you to be a Demon, then get pumped with enough Abyss juice to be able to claim some parts of a layer for yourself by destroying or enslaving all your opponents (ie every single demons in the layer). In 5e, mortals don't become demons, or at least not in any way that leave anything resembling the mortal in the demon's body and mind.

J should try to find a different goal that can be accomplished, like becoming a god. Or arguably a Duke of Hell, given you don't technically need to be a devil for it.

I suppose if you were generous you could say that anyone who get to control some of an Abyss Layer gets to be called "Demon Lord", even if they're not a demon, but it rather cheapen the concept IMO.

Helpful.

Also, see the various clarifications.

[Metamorph]

Maybe he is refrencing to the anime the time i got reincarnated as a slime?

[Unoriginal]

Helpful.


Indeed.


Okay-to make myself clearer, J is himself referencing "Demon Lord", but I don't think he means it in the strict D&D sense.

He more just wants to become a ruler and overseer of lost and damned souls.

Well, that's rather different.

Best chance J would have at achieving that would be taking over some of Hades or of the Shadowfell and getting the souls and outsiders who lives here to recognize his rule.


Where's the quote...

This is exactly what he's looking for:



He is looking to become the ruler of the lost and damned souls. So maybe closer to devilish than demonic, but I guess what I'm looking for here is a way to structure it BEFORE he reaches a time when he can realistically do it, so that I can drop hints ahead of time and have a pathway in place.

Well, here's he question: WHY does he want that? As in, what's the end goal, here? Helping the damned? Just being the lord of a specific afterlife?

If he just want to rule over the damned then simply establishing a fortress in Hades or the Shadowfell would be enough.

If he wants to be a Duke of Hell he needs to get in the employ of one of them, then climb up the ranks without being a Devil, then manage to provide at least the same amount of soul than the current Duke while getting them removed from power.

[Waterdeep Merch]

If you're okay structuring your campaign around it, you could include a rival that's trying to do the exact same thing but is, at first, further along in reaching this goal. Figure out how the NPC is going to achieve this- artifacts, bargains with devils and gods, plans to go from supplicant to supplanter, etc. Probably a little of all of those. Have the druid discover them in a fashion that would allow them to follow a similar path, or at least disrupt their rival's. They might even form a partnership, though in the end the player will need to take them down if they want to rule as head honcho.

You'll want a cast of characters that are of interest to these schemes. Gods or devils that are in charge of these things that would want to stop them, some that will actually help them for the right price, guardians/owners of powerful magic items that can be used to gather or direct souls or might be needed to approach or challenge the incumbent, mortal and immortal champions that will be for or against the druid and/or rival, people like this.

For the path, start with supplication. The player (and rival) need to start by integrating themselves with the business of gathering souls. Once they've performed at it for a while, they can look for methods of deposing their bosses- gathering allies, finding ways to get to them, and weapons that can kill them. Then they'll need some thingamajigs to perform a ritual and fully embrace the immortal portfolios needed to become what they desire. Maybe actual god or devilhood isn't actually needed to hold onto this role, either. That could be fairly interesting.

[Vogie]

J is a Shepherd Druid who wants to be a Demon Lord that isn't a Demon, nor Lord, and can't Multiclass.

We can probably make this work via throwing the above RAW chicken comments in the garbage, and walking on the refluff side, with your skillet set to light homebrew.

Instead of being Hades, the actual deity, let us focus on Hades being the place, and how the PC can be the your-campaign-world-version of a psychopomp, like Charon, the ferryman for the river Styx, from Greek Mythos or Anubis from Egyptian Mythos. We can work with that. Take the fluff of the Twilight Druid (UA), but bolt it on to the mechanics of the Shepherd Druid, by using a different definition of the word "Shepherd".

Allow them to collect new spirits by performing a ritual on the recently deceased, ushering their spirits into the afterlife, but also binding some to themselves. To keep this from being overkill, I'd rule that the Druid can only have 3 different spirits they can summon using their 2nd level feature. When they usher someone who had an aura they like, they'd bind them to their service, swapping one of the animal spirits for the spirit of the slain.

When they reach 5th level and can start summoning, which would be their modus operandi, have their summoned creatures being only spirits at first, not fully crossing over. You could show this by making the conjured creatures being... off. Think the mutated creatures from the movie Annihilation that are still animals, but leaning towards eldritch abomination. The same idea would go with whatever creatures the Druid shifts into via Wild Shape.

6 and 10th level features remain the same. The druid is the guardian of the spirits, and the spirits are more robust.

Then, alter the 14th level feature to Summon Lesser Demons, cast at level 9, rather than Conjure Animals - they can't cast the Summon Demons spell, but since they've reached gatekeeper status at that point, taking the Druid out kind of opens Pandora's Box for a second.

I think that'd work.

[Mercurias]

If this guy wants to be a "Savior of the damned" then why not start by developing some street cred? You could have him go out looking for evidence of some demonic activity and shoehorn his way in and take whatever the demonic influence was after.

Once he has something he knows a demon wants, he could either try to make a deal with it or take it to one of the demon's rivals, gaining an ally and making a delicious plot-enemy.

He could also try to set himself up to acquire items or materials or Warlocks/Wizards/Cultists known to consort with demons/spirits, then try to either lever them to pay for the work at least in part with occult knowledge or contacts.

[Xspook]

"Would you be the savior of the broken
The beaten, and the damned?"

I have THE Answer:

Play a "g" note and get him a Black Stylized Drum Major shirt and some mascara. He is now the Demon Lord he thinks he wants to be.


(He also wholly fails to understand the lyrics or who MCR are as a band.


:-)

[Man_Over_Game]

Also, J is playing a Shepherd Druid, and likely will not be multiclassing to anything except Monk.

In my Prestige Options homebrew, one of the options I have is this:

Keeper of the Forbidden Blade
You can take the Hexblade Warlock subclass, using your Wisdom modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for your Warlock features.
Requirement: Half of your total character levels (rounded down) must be in Hexblade.

You could talk to him about rebuilding into a Wisdom-based Hexblade, which keeps all of his attributes the same. The Hexblade has a lot to offer someone who wishes to deal in souls and death. The level 1 feature literally curses someone and has you drink from their spirit when they die, and the level 6 feature has you enslave their mortal soul. It fits pretty dang hard.

---------------------------------

Otherwise, why not just have the creatures slowly become more demonic. They're no longer Fey, but Fiend. Eventually have it so that instead of conjuring animals, he casts Conjure Lesser Demons.

Change the level 6 feature to be:

"If a creature you summoned attempts to attack you or targets you with a spell you are not a willing target for, it must first make a Charisma Saving Throw against your spell save DC. If it fails, it misses the attack or targets itself with the spell, and it is frightened by you for the next minute".

That way, it's still a level 6 feature that works with summons, but now it's well suited for a demon lord.

--------------------------------

All of the totems are perfectly able to be reflavored into demonic versions.

Bear = Totem of Gluttony
Hawk = Totem of Wrath
Unicorn = Totem of Lust

[Millstone85]

well, a little more clarity on what the player means by Demon Lord would be useful, if it isn't infact, a 'Demon Lord', ruler of x of the 9 hells..The Nine Hells are ruled by archdevils, not demon lords. :smalltongue:

[BreaktheStatue]

well, a little more clarity on what the player means by Demon Lord would be useful, if it isn't infact, a 'Demon Lord', ruler of x of the 9 hells..

so i'm going to assume he means, he wants subjects, but he wants to own more than their lives, for longer than his..

short of becoming a devil, or some how gaining insight into how contracts on souls are ruled, gaining their own planar domain, and getting creatures to agree to service.. sign a deal with a devil, or demon, giving him power, and subjects.. i recommend warlock.

Yeah, I agree. Some sort of "Demon Lord Internship." He could always rebel against it or break the pact later, if he wanted.

[JNAProductions]

J is a Shepherd Druid who wants to be a Demon Lord that isn't a Demon, nor Lord, and can't Multiclass.

We can probably make this work via throwing the above RAW chicken comments in the garbage, and walking on the refluff side, with your skillet set to light homebrew.

Instead of being Hades, the actual deity, let us focus on Hades being the place, and how the PC can be the your-campaign-world-version of a psychopomp, like Charon, the ferryman for the river Styx, from Greek Mythos or Anubis from Egyptian Mythos. We can work with that. Take the fluff of the Twilight Druid (UA), but bolt it on to the mechanics of the Shepherd Druid, by using a different definition of the word "Shepherd".

Allow them to collect new spirits by performing a ritual on the recently deceased, ushering their spirits into the afterlife, but also binding some to themselves. To keep this from being overkill, I'd rule that the Druid can only have 3 different spirits they can summon using their 2nd level feature. When they usher someone who had an aura they like, they'd bind them to their service, swapping one of the animal spirits for the spirit of the slain.

When they reach 5th level and can start summoning, which would be their modus operandi, have their summoned creatures being only spirits at first, not fully crossing over. You could show this by making the conjured creatures being... off. Think the mutated creatures from the movie Annihilation that are still animals, but leaning towards eldritch abomination. The same idea would go with whatever creatures the Druid shifts into via Wild Shape.

6 and 10th level features remain the same. The druid is the guardian of the spirits, and the spirits are more robust.

Then, alter the 14th level feature to Summon Lesser Demons, cast at level 9, rather than Conjure Animals - they can't cast the Summon Demons spell, but since they've reached gatekeeper status at that point, taking the Druid out kind of opens Pandora's Box for a second.

I think that'd work.

Good stuff here. Much appreciated!


"Would you be the savior of the broken
The beaten, and the damned?"

I have THE Answer:

Play a "g" note and get him a Black Stylized Drum Major shirt and some mascara. He is now the Demon Lord he thinks he wants to be.


(He also wholly fails to understand the lyrics or who MCR are as a band.


:-)

He understands. His CHARACTER does not. Key difference.

[Sigreid]

For his goal I would have gone with a high cha necromancer, creating undead and recruiting them.

As a Shepard druid, the two things that come to mind are epic feats that you design yourself or reincarnating villains and the damned into his followers.

Edit: a spell to reincarnate them as tree blights, vegapygmies and such would work and fit for a druid.

Edit 2: Fungus Zombies.

[Bloodcloud]

For his goal I would have gone with a high cha necromancer, creating undead and recruiting them.

As a Shepard druid, the two things that come to mind are epic feats that you design yourself or reincarnating villains and the damned into his followers.

Edit: a spell to reincarnate them as tree blights, vegapygmies and such would work and fit for a druid.



Indeed, becoming a sorta reincarnation deity would fit his class, and the whole "savior of beaten soul" thing. A Minor deity of second chances perhaps? Recycler of matter?

I think playing into what would a powerful druid do with the soul of a damned can make something that feels 1) achievable 2) thematically coherent to the character 3) fits within existing cosmology.

So maybe build him towards a mean to capture souls, a demiplane within the feywild, and a special druidic grove of reincarnation.

[Unoriginal]

Something J could try would be to find a dead god (or rather, one made into a vestige due to lack of worship) who had damned souls in their portfolio, transfer his consciousness into the body, then use the worship from a religion he created on the Material plane to revive into a proper deity.

[Ganymede]

Now, obviously Demonic Apotheosis is a long-term goal, but does anyone have any recommendations on good intermediary steps, or any ideas in general?

Ok, so character specific plot hooks.

I bet his actions will attract the attention of the Shadar Kai. Maybe the Raven queen demands a task of this PC.

Asmodeus is not going to happy that someone else is honing in on his soul trade. The PC might have to contend with a Steel Predator sent to take him out.

Dominion over souls requires a special kind of power, something that might be found along the tributaries of the River Styx.

An easy first step is to try to strike a deal with an imp. With the right terms and sacrifice, he could serve as a guide to this corruptive process.

[JNAProductions]

Lots of good ideas coming out of the woodwork.

Thank you to everyone who has provided advice! I might slurmp something up in the homebrew forum soon-we'll see.

[Unoriginal]

Something you have to decide early on, though, is if J's quest is basically doomed by its premise or if he has a chance to get an happy end.

I mean, you can succeed the quest and realize you ****ed up.

[JNAProductions]

Something you have to decide early on, though, is if J's quest is basically doomed by its premise or if he has a chance to get an happy end.

I mean, you can succeed the quest and realize you ****ed up.

Considering the main "plot" of the game (he's not the only player, after all) I think there's plenty of space for a happy ending.

A hard-won ending, but a happy one.

Assuming no one screws the pooch along the way. :P

[Ganymede]

Something you have to decide early on, though, is if J's quest is basically doomed by its premise or if he has a chance to get an happy end.

I mean, you can succeed the quest and realize you ****ed up.

This is really true.

When I ran Curse of Strahd, I had a player who wanted to do a "turn evil" arc. I let him do it, but I also let him know that, given the context, it was likely going to result in a "bad" ending for his PC. He was cool playing out a tragic end so it worked out.

[MThurston]

Don't let your players become Gods.

1. The Gods can see into the future. They would have them killed early on.

2. A 20th level player is not more powerful than a God.

[Ventruenox]

Vogie's contribution is an amazing idea, and I'm annoyed he beat me to it with a better fleshed out concept.

The direction this character seems to be going does not necessarily require godhood. From the Psychopomp Guide (http://www.psychopomps.org/psychopomp-guide.html): "While it is common for psychopomps to come from the other side of the veil to offer guidance, or to act as greeters upon arrival, we must not forget that there are also many humans on this side who actively assist in the dying process and work to ensure a safe passage. These may be known as soul midwives, deathwalkers, spiritual counselors, or any number of other religious and secular titles." Animals, Shamans, and Spirit Guides have also fulfilled this role in various cultures.

I think the destination the majority of harvested souls go to would affect the degree of interference from planar powers. If J is performing his role and occasionally skimming off the top, there might not be too much backlash. If J is shunting them to his own private demiplane, well then, that type of competition won't stand.

[Nhorianscum]

As far as the mechanics go a source of wish at the end of the campain given in a... suitably creepy manner will do the do with your stamp of approval. (Provided the player words the wish carefully)

Until then I'd suggest showing the changing nature of the druid's inner self via the slow corruption of his/her totems, the behavior of summoned beings, and the phyical transformations of awakened beings. Example: Bird totem slowly warps into an emanciated vulture like being with the face of an old woman, her lips torn into the shape of a beak, tounge torn into strips, and her teeth splayed into the torn wreckage, broken arms curled backwards over a bent back and gnarled legs bent backwards unnaturally mid-shin. What seems to be feathers at first are the tattered remains of a burial shroud. Advantage is given by her oh-so-distracting screams in infernal, beings who do not know infernal only hear pain and loss beyond the bounds of the common tounge. Infernal speakers are staggered by the apperations words, truths no mouth should speak and no ears should know. Devils and demons hear torn fragments of their true names rendered nearly, but not entirely powerless by the rag woman's shattered visage.

Until then a source of contact other plane (risky buisness) and magic items are the players main hope of RPing this without abandoning druid for the likes of Arcana Cleric. Though shapechanging into things at 17+ is very groovy.

[Joe the Rat]

Is he a Fire Genasi? Because you can't pull off a good Hades without being Fire Genasi.

[furby076]

He should find ways to get followers who will willingly, without any kind of coercion, sacrifice themselves (or be willing to). That is true faith and power

[Asmotherion]

Is he a Fire Genasi? Because you can't pull off a good Hades without being Fire Genasi.

And get a Chubby Red imp Familiar and a second skinny petrol colour planarly bound imp.