Are Cheetahs not in 5e?

[stewstew5]

I know they were in 3.5 and I've been trying to cross-reference them for general balance, but I can't find stats anywhere. Were they removed or not included?

Edit: I'm not actually looking for a cheetah to put in my game. I wanted to use the dash ability to cross reference for balance reasons with one of my monsters

[KorvinStarmast]

I know they were in 3.5 and I've been trying to cross-reference them for general balance, but I can't find stats anywhere. Were they removed or not included? Reskin a panther. Increase its speed if you think it will work better.

Panther (Cheetah) Medium beast, unaligned Armor Class 12 Hit Points 13 (3d8)
Speed 50(70) ft.,

There you go: cheetah.

[MaxWilson]

I know they were in 3.5 and I've been trying to cross-reference them for general balance, but I can't find stats anywhere. Were they removed or not included?

Heh. I thought this was going to be a thread griping about 5E movement speeds and how nothing moves faster than 20 mph.

[Particle_Man]

I know they were in 3.5 and I've been trying to cross-reference them for general balance, but I can't find stats anywhere. Were they removed or not included?

I guess they didn't prosper.

[stewstew5]

Reskin a panther. Increase its speed if you think it will work better.

Panther (Cheetah) Medium beast, unaligned Armor Class 12 Hit Points 13 (3d8)
Speed 50(70) ft.,

There you go: cheetah.

while I entirely appreciate this, I don't need a cheetah immediately. I just liked it's 3.5 sprint (which is what I was trying to reference) and wanted a more up to date version

[stewstew5]

Heh. I thought this was going to be a thread griping about 5E movement speeds and how nothing moves faster than 20 mph.

you're right there. the 3.5e sprint made them way faster than actual cheetahs. For a more accurate (top) move speed they's move about 75 feet per turn at there max as opposed to 500

[Tvtyrant]

A brief google search suggests that a cheetah should get a charge ability where they move 450 feet in a round and make a single attack at the end if it once per short rest. They only maintain their top speed for 20 seconds, 3 rounds at the most, but they go 95 feet a second at that speed.

Mechanically I would make them big dogs that can turbo-charge, they lack hunting claws and other cat abilities.

[MaxWilson]

you're right there. the 3.5e sprint made them way faster than actual cheetahs. For a more accurate (top) move speed they's move about 75 feet per turn at there max as opposed to 500

75 feet per turn means they Dash at only 17 mph. For something more like a real-life Cheetah you probably want to give them a movement rate of 200' and a bonus action Dash, because real Cheetahs go 70 mph, and 70 mph is 616' per turn.

[Waterdeep Merch]

75 feet per turn means they Dash at only 17 mph. For something more like a real-life Cheetah you probably want to give them a movement rate of 200' and a bonus action Dash, because real Cheetahs go 70 mph, and 70 mph is 616' per turn.

Yeah, but that much power on a low-CR beast would be massive cheese bait for certain players, especially if they can convince their DM that they should be tamable (real world cheetahs can be tamed pretty easily and have been for thousands of years).

WotC probably just took them out to prevent all the cheetahing.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, but that much power on a low-CR beast would be massive cheese bait for certain players, especially if they can convince their DM that they should be tamable (real world cheetahs can be tamed pretty easily and have been for thousands of years).

Treating this part of the response seriously because it's not in blue text...

If that's their reasoning, WotC should have taken out Phantom Steed too, because in terms of combat there isn't all that much difference between 100' move and 200' move, specifically because all of the monsters are so slow. If there were a bunch of 150'-move monsters, having a 200'-move mount would be great, but as it stands you can already use a 100'-move Phantom Steed (with a free Dash due to Mounted Combat rules) to outrun almost anything.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Treating this part of the response seriously because it's not in blue text...

If that's their reasoning, WotC should have taken out Phantom Steed too, because in terms of combat there isn't all that much difference between 100' move and 200' move, specifically because all of the monsters are so slow. If there were a bunch of 150'-move monsters, having a 200'-move mount would be great, but as it stands you can already use a 100'-move Phantom Steed (with a free Dash due to Mounted Combat rules) to outrun almost anything.

I'm not sure if it is or isn't, but they'd almost definitely not model their cheetahs appropriately because of it. While it won't always matter, there are certain scenarios where being able to hit someone and move out of even their dash range within the same turn, each turn, in perpetuity, can definitely get ridiculous. It trivializes chase sequences where it can be used, too.

Including them like that in your home game is reasonable enough, especially if there's a lot of dungeon delving, just be sure you're not giving them access to something you'll regret later.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm not sure if it is or isn't, but they'd almost definitely not model their cheetahs appropriately because of it. While it won't always matter, there are certain scenarios where being able to hit someone and move out of even their dash range within the same turn, each turn, in perpetuity, can definitely get ridiculous. It trivializes chase sequences where it can be used, too.

Including them like that in your home game is reasonable enough, especially if there's a lot of dungeon delving, just be sure you're not giving them access to something you'll regret later.

I already mentioned above that they can't do that for extended periods of time, so making it 1/short rest or 3/long rest is totally fair. Not very abusable if the Druid has to go lie down after each turn in combat.

[Chronos]

Sort of like how real-world gorillas can lift more weight than a 30 Str god.

[CTurbo]

Cheetah

Armor Class 13
Hit Points 14 (4d6)
Speed 100ft

Str 12, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 16, Cha 7

Skills: Perception +5, Stealth +7
Senses: Passive Perception 15
Challenge: 1/4(50xp)

Keen Sight: The Cheetah has advantage on Wisdom(Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Double Dash: The Cheetah can Dash using it's bonus action and the speed is doubled. It can sustain this speed for three rounds after which has to make a Constitution check (DC5) for each subsequent round dashing(adding +5 to the check each time). On a fail, the Cheetah suffers one level of exhaustion.
Trip Attack: When a Cheetah uses the Dash action to pursue a creature, it can attempt to trip the creature(DC13) within 5ft of it. On a fail, the target falls prone at which time the Cheetah can make one Bite attack.

Bite. Melee weapon attack. +3 to hit, reach 5ft, one target, 1d6+1 piercing damage.
Claw. Melee weapon attack. +3 to hit, reach 5ft, one target, 1d4+1 slashing damage.

[stewstew5]

75 feet per turn means they Dash at only 17 mph. For something more like a real-life Cheetah you probably want to give them a movement rate of 200' and a bonus action Dash, because real Cheetahs go 70 mph, and 70 mph is 616' per turn.

I was doing all my research and math with in browser materials so yea that's right

[JoeJ]

Treating this part of the response seriously because it's not in blue text...

If that's their reasoning, WotC should have taken out Phantom Steed too, because in terms of combat there isn't all that much difference between 100' move and 200' move, specifically because all of the monsters are so slow. If there were a bunch of 150'-move monsters, having a 200'-move mount would be great, but as it stands you can already use a 100'-move Phantom Steed (with a free Dash due to Mounted Combat rules) to outrun almost anything.

Yeah, but a druid can't wild shape into a phantom steed.

[Droodicus]

Take a panther. Give it the tabaxi dash ability. Done?

[Tvtyrant]

Cheetah

Armor Class 13
Hit Points 14 (4d6)
Speed 100ft

Str 12, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 3, Wis 16, Cha 7

Skills: Perception +5, Stealth +7
Senses: Passive Perception 15
Challenge: 1/4(50xp)

Keen Sight: The Cheetah has advantage on Wisdom(Perception) checks that rely on sight.
Double Dash: The Cheetah can Dash using it's bonus action and the speed is doubled. It can sustain this speed for three rounds after which has to make a Constitution check (DC5) for each subsequent round dashing(adding +5 to the check each time). On a fail, the Cheetah suffers one level of exhaustion.
Trip Attack: When a Cheetah uses the Dash action to pursue a creature, it can attempt to trip the creature(DC13) within 5ft of it. On a fail, the target falls prone at which time the Cheetah can make one Bite attack.

Bite. Melee weapon attack. +3 to hit, reach 5ft, one target, 1d6+1 piercing damage.
Claw. Melee weapon attack. +3 to hit, reach 5ft, one target, 1d4+1 slashing damage.
This looks very good, I would run them like this. 300 ft a round seems plenty for three rounds, they can literally run in under ranged attacks and run someone down.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I guess they didn't prosper.

That was wonderfully terrible!:smallbiggrin:

[Zhorn]

Sort of like how real-world gorillas can lift more weight than a 30 Str god.
it would come down to the size category of the god in question.

PHB p176; Lift capacity = double carry capacity = 2 * (Strength Score * 15) = Strength Score *30
Size and Strength; carrying capacity doubled for each size category above medium.

google: Gorilla weight lift = 1800 lb.
Lets say Large + Strength 15 + Powerful Build to get that lifting capacity
15 (Str) * 30 (lift) * 2 (large size) * 2 (powerful build)= 1800 lb.

A god? Tiamat is what I have on hand.
Strength 30, Gargantuan
30 (Str) * 30 (lift) * 2 (bigger than medium) * 2 (bigger than large) * 2 (bigger than huge) = 7200 lb.
And even that that's just her avatar on the material plane.

[LudicSavant]

it would come down to the size category of the god in question.

PHB p176; Lift capacity = double carry capacity = 2 * (Strength Score * 15) = Strength Score *30
Size and Strength; carrying capacity doubled for each size category above medium.

google: Gorilla weight lift = 1800 lb.
Lets say Large + Strength 15 + Powerful Build to get that lifting capacity
15 (Str) * 30 (lift) * 2 (large size) * 2 (powerful build)= 1800 lb.

A god? Tiamat is what I have on hand.
Strength 30, Gargantuan
30 (Str) * 30 (lift) * 2 (bigger than medium) * 2 (bigger than large) * 2 (bigger than huge) = 7200 lb.
And even that that's just her avatar on the material plane.

You say 7200 pounds like it's supposed to be a lot for a Gargantuan creature. Guinness Book of World Records list the record for a lowly human at over 6000 pounds, and various animals are much stronger.

[BreaktheStatue]

You say 7200 pounds like it's supposed to be a lot for a Gargantuan creature. Guinness Book of World Records list the record for a lowly human at over 6000 pounds, and various animals are much stronger.

Yeah, gargantuan creatures weigh 16 tons on the low end, so even assuming Tiamat is a complete runt, she's lifting less than half her body weight.

Her personal trainer would be very disappointed.

"Do you even lift, bro?"

[Tvtyrant]

I think for a more realistic speed or lifting capacity it would work better to make those skills instead of base traits. An elephant is big (multiplier) and strong, but it also could have a big bonus to its carry skill to show it can lift a lot. A cheetah could have high dexterity, but also have a big bonus to movement skill that adds to it.

My reasoning is that neither is directly correlated with combat ability. The strongmen competitors don't dominate martial arts, and sprinters aren't the world's finest archers. Making them distinct skills would make them much closer to real then they are now.

[MaxWilson]

google: Gorilla weight lift = 1800 lb.
Lets say Large + Strength 15 + Powerful Build to get that lifting capacity
15 (Str) * 30 (lift) * 2 (large size) * 2 (powerful build)= 1800 lb.

Gorillas are Medium, not Large. Even *giant* gorillas are only Huge. Even if the DM rules that they count as large, you're definitely not going to be able to justify Large AND Powerful Build at the same time, because sort-of-Large is what Powerful Build is modeling.

[Zhorn]

You say 7200 pounds like it's supposed to be a lot for a Gargantuan creature.
No, I just say that number because that's the number that the formulas in the PHB spit out. Personally, I'm also underwhelmed by that number, but that wasn't the focus of the post.
Chronos made the comment about real-world gorillas capable of lifting more than a 30 Str god. Didn't sound right, so I looked into it. It's not a "You gorillas are nothing, check what this amazing god can do", just a "I wonder who does lift more when using the rules in the PHB? Huh, ok, guess I'll share that"

Gorillas are Medium, not Large. Even *giant* gorillas are only Huge. Even if the DM rules that they count as large, you're definitely not going to be able to justify Large AND Powerful Build at the same time, because sort-of-Large is what Powerful Build is modeling.
The gorilla I used is a hypothetical reverse engineering to get the numbers I got from google. Q "how much can a gorilla lift?", A "according to the Guiness Book of Records, a silverback gorilla can lift up to 815 kilograms (1800 pounds) of dead weight."
Then just monkeyed with the RAW to find a build that spat out that result, since the gorilla like monsters in game didn't hit the mark.
Ape (MM p317: Medium, Str16) = 480 lb. too low
Giant Ape (MM p323: Huge, Str23) = 2760 lb. too high
Girallon (VGM 152p : Large, Str18) = 1080 lb. still too low
Since gorillas in captivity are able to reach weights of +500 lb., it didn't seem unreasonable to use a Large size, and Powerful Build was just a way to get exactly on target without giving them an insane strength score and size combination. Getting that 1800 lb. lift capacity was the only point of that theoretical build.

[Knaight]

The gorilla I used is a hypothetical reverse engineering to get the numbers I got from google. Q "how much can a gorilla lift?", A "according to the Guiness Book of Records, a silverback gorilla can lift up to 815 kilograms (1800 pounds) of dead weight."
Then just monkeyed with the RAW to find a build that spat out that result, since the gorilla like monsters in game didn't hit the mark.

The standard gorilla probably shouldn't be working off records (much for the reason a standard human shouldn't be), and a gorilla which is has no business being strength 15.

[Zhorn]

The standard gorilla probably shouldn't be working off records (much for the reason a standard human shouldn't be), and a gorilla which is has no business being strength 15.

For humans that train for records, I'd agree. But since most animals outside of domestication don't train at all, those kind of numbers would be relatively closer to reflecting an average for a gorilla's lift capacity.
As for Str 15, i used that because it was close to the Monster Manual Ape's strength 16, and lined up with hitting the target number for lifting 1800 lb.
Sometimes when trying to fit complex comparisons into simplified formulas, it's just easier to consider a spherical cow.

[hamishspence]

The gorilla I used is a hypothetical reverse engineering to get the numbers I got from google. Q "how much can a gorilla lift?", A "according to the Guiness Book of Records, a silverback gorilla can lift up to 815 kilograms (1800 pounds) of dead weight."
Then just monkeyed with the RAW to find a build that spat out that result, since the gorilla like monsters in game didn't hit the mark.
Ape (MM p317: Me
Pun intended? :smallamused:

(yes, I know they're only monkeys in the cladistic sense rather than the colloquial sense)

[Zhorn]

maybe.... :smallbiggrin:

[JackPhoenix]

Why not simply do what 3.5 did (it's about comparisons already) and give it the ability to sprint 10x its speed (which shouldn't be 100' just because) and attack 1/short rest?


I already mentioned above that they can't do that for extended periods of time, so making it 1/short rest or 3/long rest is totally fair. Not very abusable if the Druid has to go lie down after each turn in combat.

As for the druid and weird forms of movement, there's a reason why steeders with their jumping were changed from beasts in OotA to monstrosities in MToF.

[stewstew5]

(yes, I know they're only monkeys in the cladistic sense rather than the colloquial sense)

I think you have this backwards

[Snowbluff]

Everyone's trying to reinvent the wheel and I'm thinking "Just give the tabaxi ability for double speed that refreshes when they don't move." :p

[GlenSmash!]

Sort of like how real-world gorillas can lift more weight than a 30 Str god.

True.

Though really that depends on the size class of the god.

And assumes it doesn't have some ability like "Immeasurable Strength: No matter what size he appears to be Kord is assumed to be Gargantuan for carrying capacity and damage roles."

Though I haven't seen to many stat blocks for deities in 5e. And I for one am perfectly happy with that.

[OverLordOcelot]

The answer to your question is that they held a contest to see what animals people preferred. And the problem with having a contest with winners and losers? Well, you know what they say...

Cheetas never win.

[Chronos]

My point wasn't really about gods specifically, just about creatures with the maximum possible strength of 30. It's just that you don't often see ability scores of 30 on anything other than gods.

[MaxWilson]

True.

Though really that depends on the size class of the god.

And assumes it doesn't have some ability like "Immeasurable Strength: No matter what size he appears to be Kord is assumed to be Gargantuan for carrying capacity and damage roles."

Though I haven't seen to many stat blocks for deities in 5e. And I for one am perfectly happy with that.

More like "infinite strength: Clark can lift anything, and can deal infinite damage with a punch." :)

[Particle_Man]

I guess they didn't prosper.


The answer to your question is that they held a contest to see what animals people preferred. And the problem with having a contest with winners and losers? Well, you know what they say...

Cheetas never win.

Cheetah Ninja! :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

I think you have this backwards

Any clade that includes both Old World Monkeys (Catarrhini) and New World Monkeys (Platyrrhini) will also include apes, because apes are a subset within Catarrhini.

So, if you're using the clade of both Catarrhini and Platyrrhini as "monkeys" then you are including apes as well.

But colloquially, people use "monkey" to mean "All Platyrrhini and all Catarrhini except apes".

[Zhorn]

But colloquially, people use "monkey" to mean "All Platyrrhini and all Catarrhini except apes".
Don't forget saiyans. Saiyans are also filthy monkeys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dfMA0tVdwM

[GlenSmash!]

More like "infinite strength: Clark can lift anything, and can deal infinite damage with a punch." :)

Pretty much. So don't even write it down.

[stewstew5]

Everyone's trying to reinvent the wheel and I'm thinking "Just give the tabaxi ability for double speed that refreshes when they don't move." :p

once again, I don't actually want the stats for a cheetah. i just couldn't find stats for them anywhere and was wondering what was up

[Malifice]

Use Panther stats.

Let them Dash as a bonus action.

[Theodoric]

5e doesn't have 3e's misconception that it's a complete mechanical representation of a fictional world. It doesn't try to exhaustively model everything by way of stats.

[Rukelnikov]

5e doesn't have 3e's misconception that it's a complete mechanical representation of a fictional world. It doesn't try to exhaustively model everything by way of stats.

Its only a misconception if you are not aiming for it :S

[awa]

cheetah are a lot smaller and weaker than panther

[hamishspence]

A little lighter, and more fragile - but not necessarily smaller. While the biggest leopards are heavier than the biggest cheetahs, a cheetah's actually a bit taller at the shoulder on average. Also, the biggest cheetahs can significantly outweigh the smallest adult leopards.


Use Panther stats.

Let them Dash as a bonus action.
If you compare 3e Cheetah stats to 3e Leopard stats, they are very similar, except for the speed thing. Number of hit dice, which feats, exact values for each stat, natural armour value - all of these match. The only major difference is the claws - a cheetah's are 1d2 instead of 1d3, and it gets no Rakes.

So, there's precedent for "It's basically just a modified leopard" statwise.