Moon Druid2/Monk1 - Which class first?

[RogueJK]

Assume you're building a Moon Druid with a 1 level dip into Monk. Starting play at 3rd level, as a Druid2/Monk1. Main stat is WIS, with decent DEX and CON, and low STR, INT, and CHA.

Which class would you take first in the build? (Although keep in mind that you're starting at 3rd, so you won't have to play 1st and 2nd level. I realize that starting play at 1st Level might change your answer.)


1st level HP would be the same either way. Armor proficiency would be the same, and not used anyway. Weapon proficiency would be almost exactly the same (Druids also get scimitars), and also rarely ever used.

The main difference would appear to be saving throw proficiency. As a Moon Druid, who will spend much of their time Wildshaped on the front lines, would it be better to have STR/DEX proficiency or INT/WIS proficiency?

Skills is another difference. Going Monk first would also allow you to pick up Athletics/Acrobatics proficiency, handy for a front liner, while going Druid first would allow you to get more of the nature-related skills (Animal Handling, Survival, and Nature) for out of combat use.

Tools is the third difference, albeit the most minor. Druid gets you Herbalism Kit proficiency, whereas Monk gets you an Artisan Tool or Instrument proficiency.


Keep in mind that when you wildshape, you keep your character's save proficiencies, skill proficiencies, and mental stats, but take on the animal's physical stats.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Assume you're building a 3rd level Moon Druid2/Monk1. Main stat is WIS, with decent DEX and CON, and low STR, INT, and CHA.

Which class would you take first in the build? (Although keep in mind that you're starting at 3rd, so you won't have to play 1st and 2nd level. I realize that starting play at 1st Level might change your answer.)


1st level HP would be the same either way. Armor proficiency would be the same, and not used anyway. Weapon proficiency would be almost exactly the same (Druids also get scimitars), and also rarely ever used.

The main difference would appear to be saving throw proficiency. As a Moon Druid, who will spend much of their time Wildshaped on the front lines, would it be better to have STR/DEX proficiency or INT/WIS proficiency?

Skills is another difference. Going Monk first would also allow you to pick up Athletics/Acrobatics proficiency, handy for a front liner, while going Druid first would allow you to get more of the nature-related skills (Animal Handling, Survival, and Nature) for out of combat use.

Tools is the third difference, albeit the most minor. Druid gets you Herbalism Kit proficiency, whereas Monk gets you an Artisan Tool or Instrument proficiency.


Keep in mind that when you wildshape, you keep your character's save proficiencies, skill proficiencies, and mental stats, but take on the animal's physical stats.

Kinda sounds like you've already got it figured out (Monk).

[Grimmnist]

I would probably start Druid for the saving throws. While Str and Dex saves are good for a frontliner most of those effects do damage and you have multiple health pools. I would be more worried about avoiding incapacitations via Wisdom saves so you can move into position to tank. While Str and Dex saves will probably come into play more often, it matters less if you fail.

You do make a good point about the Monk skills being more useful for a front liner, but I tend to value skills less as you can often get the ones you need from race or background.

[TheUser]

I would probably start Druid for the saving throws. While Str and Dex saves are good for a frontliner most of those effects do damage and you have multiple health pools. I would be more worried about avoiding incapacitations via Wisdom saves so you can move into position to tank. While Str and Dex saves will probably come into play more often, it matters less if you fail.

You do make a good point about the Monk skills being more useful for a front liner, but I tend to value skills less as you can often get the ones you need from race or background.

100% this.
Resillient Con + Wis saves > Resillient Wis + Dex Saves.

Front liners need to maintain concentration on spells. And as stated earlier you have lots of HP to sluff in encounters (+ healing spirit out of combat).

[Mercurias]

I'd probably pick the Druid first for Wisdom/Intelligence save proficiency. It feels like those will be a lot more important in the long run than Strength or Dexterity, especially if you're going to spend so much time wildshaped.

[Citan]

Assume you're building a 3rd level Moon Druid2/Monk1. Main stat is WIS, with decent DEX and CON, and low STR, INT, and CHA.

Which class would you take first in the build? (Although keep in mind that you're starting at 3rd, so you won't have to play 1st and 2nd level. I realize that starting play at 1st Level might change your answer.)


1st level HP would be the same either way. Armor proficiency would be the same, and not used anyway. Weapon proficiency would be almost exactly the same (Druids also get scimitars), and also rarely ever used.

The main difference would appear to be saving throw proficiency. As a Moon Druid, who will spend much of their time Wildshaped on the front lines, would it be better to have STR/DEX proficiency or INT/WIS proficiency?

Skills is another difference. Going Monk first would also allow you to pick up Athletics/Acrobatics proficiency, handy for a front liner, while going Druid first would allow you to get more of the nature-related skills (Animal Handling, Survival, and Nature) for out of combat use.

Tools is the third difference, albeit the most minor. Druid gets you Herbalism Kit proficiency, whereas Monk gets you an Artisan Tool or Instrument proficiency.


Keep in mind that when you wildshape, you keep your character's save proficiencies, skill proficiencies, and mental stats, but take on the animal's physical stats.
Hi!

Honestly I'd probably pick Druid simply because I'm the guy who likes mitigating risks evenly.
And Monk has several tools against AOE (notably Evasion), and should be able to use its mobiltiy to avoid being a target for the majority of STR-based effects.
With that said, the reverse can be argued with equally same strength imo: stacking DEX proficiency and Evasion means there is at least one kind of danger that becomes usually a non-thing for you.

So... Honestly? Go with your gut. It's not that big a deal anyways, at least if you wanted to main Monk which gets Diamond Soul.
Otherwise, I'd simply suggest getting a quick look at the beasts and Elementals you'd really like to play as.

Since as Wild Shape you gain creature proficiencies in addition to gaining yours (and those forms usually have strong physical stats either way), I'd personally bet that it's a better choice in the long run to pick Wisdom proficiency and count on Wild Shape forms to shore up STR/DEX saves, but I'm not very knowledgeable about those forms so I may be wrong. :)

As far as tool/skill proficiency go, it's honestly 100% irrelevant: just get the one you'd miss from background, if possible with custom background (which is a very officialized option to push to DM).

[Man_Over_Game]

Are you choosing to be a Moon Druid more for the caster portion or the melee portion?

If you team needs more of a caster, go Druid. If your team immediately needs a front line combatant, go Monk. Either way, there's not enough difference between the two as a long-term decision.

[RogueJK]

I would probably start Druid for the saving throws. While Str and Dex saves are good for a frontliner most of those effects do damage and you have multiple health pools. I would be more worried about avoiding incapacitations via Wisdom saves so you can move into position to tank. While Str and Dex saves will probably come into play more often, it matters less if you fail.


That's how I was leaning, for the same reason. They'd have ways to soak/heal extra damage, whereas incapacitation is tougher to deal with.


Hi!
And Monk has several tools against AOE (notably Evasion), and should be able to use its mobiltiy to avoid being a target for the majority of STR-based effects.
With that said, the reverse can be argued with equally same strength imo: stacking DEX proficiency and Evasion means there is at least one kind of danger that becomes usually a non-thing for you.
...
It's not that big a deal anyways, at least if you wanted to main Monk which gets Diamond Soul.


I should have been more explicit in the OP. This would be a Moon Druid with a 1 level Monk dip, mainly for +WIS to AC (both normally and while Wildshaped) and 1d4 unarmed strikes. No levels in Monk past 1. So no Evasion, Diamond Soul, etc

The concept is a semi-feral animalistic Moon Druid who doesn't use any weapons or armor. Spends most combats wildshaped, after firing off a spell or two. Attacks with their bare hands/feet/teeth when it's necessary and they're not Wildshaped.


Are you choosing to be a Moon Druid more for the caster portion or the melee portion?

If you team needs more of a caster, go Druid. If your team immediately needs a front line combatant, go Monk. Either way, there's not enough difference between the two as a long-term decision.

Keep in mind that this is starting life as a 3rd level character. It'll be playing as a Monk1/Druid2 from the beginning.

So no need to choose between being a Monk1 melee fighter or a Druid1 caster at Level 1.

This is just about choosing which one to take as the build's "first level", to drive save/skill proficiency from that initial level.

[Man_Over_Game]

Ah, my bad.

I'd recommend Monk DRUID. Wisdom saving throws can be pretty important for a frontliner, and your beast forms are already going to have strong Strength and Dexterity saving throws, likely having their own proficiencies for it.

[OverLordOcelot]

Definitely druid. You can pick up athletics (which you'll want) from background, and "Outlander" sounds like a natural fit for this character anyway. Wisdom saving throws are better than dex saving throws, especially since you're a caster. Dex effects mostly do damage, which you can soak with forms and maintain concentration through with warcaster and/or resilient con, but wisdom saves often leave you stunned for a round - which just ends concentration. Since a moon druid's modus operandi is casting a concentration spell, then fighting in beast form, you really don't want to risk that.


I'd recommend Monk. Wisdom saving throws can be pretty important for a frontliner,

Druid is the one that gets wisdom save proficiency.

[Citan]

Well, seems there is a quasi-consensus about starting Druid, there you go. :)

Good luck!

[Cespenar]

Sidenote: by the rules, you don't add your Wis on top of your animal AC. They are two different sets of ACs, you just use the higher one.

All the power to you if your DM ruled otherwise, though.

For the actual question, Druid all the way. Wisdom saves are just too darn critical.

[RogueJK]

Sidenote: by the rules, you don't add your Wis on top of your animal AC. They are two different sets of ACs, you just use the higher one.


Yes, you don't add your WIS on top of the animal's Natural Armor. But you can choose to use Monk's Unarmored Defense's DEX+WIS instead of the normal Natural Armor + DEX. And DEX+WIS is higher in nearly all Wildshape forms, provided you have a decent WIS score.

Per Page 2 of https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf (bold emphasis mine)


How do you calculate a creature’s Armor Class (AC)? Chapter 1 of the Player’s Handbook (p. 14) describes how to determine AC, yet AC calculations generate questions frequently. That fact isn’t too surprising, given the number of ways the game gives you to change your AC!
Here are some ways to calculate your base AC:
• Unarmored: 10 + your Dexterity modifier.
• Armored: Use the AC entry for the armor you’re wearing (see PH, 145). For example, in leather armor, you calculate your AC as 11 + your Dexterity modifier, and in chain mail, your AC is simply 16.
• Unarmored Defense (Barbarian): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier.
• Unarmored Defense (Monk): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
• Draconic Resilience (Sorcerer): 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
• Natural Armor: 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your natural armor bonus. This is a calculation method typically used only by monsters and NPCs, although it is also relevant to a druid or another character who assumes a form that has natural armor.

These methods—along with any others that give you a formula for calculating your AC—are mutually exclusive; you can benefit from only one at a time. If you have access to more than one, you pick which one to use. For example, if you’re a sorcerer/monk, you can use either Unarmored Defense or Draconic Resilience, not both. Similarly, a druid/barbarian who transforms into a beast form that has natural armor can use either the beast’s natural armor or Unarmored Defense (you aren’t considered to be wearing armor with natural armor).

Natural Armor is usually only +1 or +2 (barring a couple forms like Giant Scorpion's +4 or Earth Elemental's +8), whereas the typical Druid will have a WIS bonus of +3 to +5.

For example, a Brown Bear's standard AC using Natural Armor + DEX is 11. But a Druid/Monk with an 18 WIS could have a Brown Bear with 14 AC using DEX+WIS. Similarly, a Dire Wolf has a 14 AC normally, but would have a 16 AC using DEX+WIS instead of Natural Armor + DEX.