How to role-play Lawful Evil Avenging Angel serving Good Deities?

[crystaleye]

I have this inspiration to create a Lawful Evil Avenging Angel who serve the causes of Good Deities.

I am wondering if the Lawful Evil alignment might cause conflict with the energies of the Good Deities.

You see, the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel only do evil against evil.

In other words, the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel life purpose is to hunt down and destroy evil in all its forms within the Laws of Heaven & The Celestial Good Deities. It is the norm for the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel to use evil magick and evil powers against all evil.

So the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel cannot randomly destroy anything unlawfully.

{Scrubbed}
I like to study this concept with anyone who care to participate in my discussions. Also, if there are any lawful evil threads which are relevant to my character, please point them out to me.

Thanks.

[crystaleye]

Some might say that my Avenging Angel should be of Good Alignments since His Life Purpose is to Destroy All Evil but my Avenging Angel wants to use Evil Powers and Evil Magic against All Evil.

Kinda like Karma at work.

[Particle_Man]

Have you considered a malconvoker? They are not evil themselves but are specifically able to use evil conjuration magic without it making them evil. Thus they could use evil conjuration spells in the service of a good god.

You could be lawful neutral, for instance. Or even good. If the only reason you wanted to be LE was to be able to use evil spells, well here is a prestige class giving you a way to use evil spells without being actually evil yourself. And nothing else in your description really leapt out as "evil" to me. Lawful Neutral (or Lawful Good with an attitude) seems like a good fit (you only lie to fiends, in order to summon them to destroy worse fiends (and undead); you only use these evil spells agains evil. You are bound by the gods to destroy evil - that is your mission).

You can even comb the books for cool evil conjuration spells that people usually don't use. Wall of Eyes is fairly evocative.

Malconvoker has a great handbook here. It is a 3.5 prestige class:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker

[hamishspence]

Some might say that my Avenging Angel should be of Good Alignments since His Life Purpose is to Destroy All Evil but my Avenging Angel wants to use Evil Powers and Evil Magic against All Evil.


If you want "evil magic that only evil characters can use" BoVD Vile metamagic feats (and Corrupt spells) may be a good bet.

For the actual roleplaying part, Red Fel's guide may be of interest:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil

[Jarmen4u]

I love the idea, and have tried it before, but there are a few considerations to make. Firstly, depending on the "type" of evil you're facing, a lot of evil magics and powers won't be as effective. For example, undead are often healed by negative energy, not harmed by it. Other Evil-descriptor spells often only work against Good (or at least non-Evil) targets.

Beyond that though, you're basically Bad Cop 2.0. Check out the Red Fel guide posted above, but consider yourself to still technically be "Good" as far as your motives. Everything you do is justified because it's for the greater good, so you're not a bad guy. You just employ methods others are too cowardly to use.

[Red Fel]

"I am the emissary of Hell... Spider-man!"

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/11/Toei_Spider-Man_costume.jpg
Japan is awesome.

What you're describing is precisely a "do Evil unto Evil" character. As has been mentioned, I talk about this in my handbook. But let's be clear on something:

This character is Evil.

Judge by mindset. Here is a character whose mindset is thus: It is both proper and expedient for me to do Evil unto Evil, so I shall. He's not doing this because it's a last resort, or out of desperation. He has consciously decided that the best and most proper way to destroy Evil is to do Evil things to it. He has willingly accepted Evil as the best course of action.

Hence, he is Evil.

Now, let's be clear. If his only thing is "fight Evil, with great violence," he's not necessarily actually Evil. He may well be Good. What makes him Evil is his methodology - using powers and abilities with the [Evil] tag, or resorting to torture or outright murder. (Of non-Outsiders. Because killing an Evil Outsider is Always Good, apparently.)

It's not hard to play a character like this. Even Evil characters can be pleasant. Obviously, don't play him as a condescending, judgmental or aloof jerk - nobody wants that in the party. The angle of seeking redemption can kind of work, but in part it makes no sense: Why would this character seek to atone for his actions, if he believes them fully justified?

There's also another angle to consider - do his divine patrons accept him? Obviously, if he is a Cleric, this will be a huge problem, but if he's not, it's just a question. A Wizard doesn't have to align with his patron deity, for example. But in a setting where you can literally call up your patron deity and ask for tips, it raises the question: If this murderous time bomb just waiting to explode prances around claiming to be the servant of, say, the goddess of love and compassion, don't you think she'd step in at some point to clarify that fact?

Consider also how he sees himself. Right now, he's a necessary evil (small e). But what happens if he succeeds at his mission? When he kills all the monsters, will there be any room for him in the world? Will he do the proper and expedient thing, and remove himself from the world, resigning himself to the consequences of his actions? Or will he just assume that a justified hero like him deserves to remain among the peace he has created?

These are all questions to ask when playing a character like this.

[hamishspence]

What makes him Evil is his methodology - using powers and abilities with the [Evil] tag, or resorting to torture or outright murder. (Of non-Outsiders. Because killing an Evil Outsider is Always Good, apparently.)


I personally would rule that the "torture is evil" principle still applies to [Evil] outsiders under most circumstances.

"Murder" is one of those things that's defined heavily by motive and context - but it is possible to murder an Evil Outsider and still have it be an evil act. Usually this will be a case of "Klingon Promotion" - a fiend murdering his way to the top of his own fiendish organization - but there may be other ways.

[Florian]

Take a look at PF/Golarion. There's a LE deity named Achaekek/He Who Walks In Blood, which was created by the gods to be the assassin of gods. The god resides in the N realms of the Boneyard, close to Pharasme, goddess of life, death and fate. His followers are the Red Mantis Assassins, a religious cult that celebrates assassination, but will not, under any circumstance, act against anyone under rightful divine mandate. Maybe that could be an inspiration for your Dark Angel?

[crystaleye]

Hello All, Thank you for your inputs. They are extremely interestingly valuable.

Upon further reflections, I like to share some of my inspirations with all..

“I have seen your pain, my son...Come, tell me how I may serve you.”

The voice descended upon Anshar like a torrent of love and overwhelming warmth. He had spoken to the Creator before, but never directly in his presence.

Anshar wanted to weep, but he knew that he must retain his composure.

“Father, I have long been your faithful servant. I will continue to serve you as for as long as I am capable. But now, I fear that I may be dying. I need your help. What is wrong with me, Father?”

Anshar dared not open his eyes or remove himself from the praying posture that he had adopted at the foot of the throne. Even with his eyes closed, the light was almost blinding.

Rodare retained his position next to Anshar and dared not open his eyes. He, too, was almost blinded by the Light of the Presence. He remained silent as his partner fought for his life.

“The healer has told you of your condition?”

“Yes, Father. I do not understand.”

“When I created your kind, I knew that certain inevitable risks were to be taken during the course of your battles. These risks were to be balanced by both your power and your longevity. However, I could see that there would come a time in which even those strengths would be overcome by certain inevitabilities.”

“Inevitabilities, Father?”

The Creator’s voice bathed Anshar with a light and warmth that he never thought possible. His body swayed with pleasure at each syllable that the Creator spoke. It was all he could do to form his questions properly.

“When a warrior confronts evil, one is forced to expend a certain amount of power in defeating it. Over time, each confrontation with that force begins to take a toll on the warrior. You and your kind were created to be my greatest champions in the lower worlds, but even you were not designed to withstand this force forever.”

“This evil force...that I have fought for you, my father...will it destroy me?” Anshar was close to tears. He felt a warm rush of power fill his wings and he longed to soar upward toward the Presence. He knew, however, that the energy he would encounter in so close a contact with the Creator might well destroy him.

“All things—including you, my son—must follow the patterns of Creation. You have lived for billions of years…far longer than most of the stars and galaxies in the heavens. You are one of my most beloved creations. I am very sorry to say, my son, that your time has come.”

“Father, do you no longer require my service?” Anshar asked pleadingly.

“You and your partner are my greatest warriors in the lower worlds. I could create a new partner for Rodare to replace you. But that one, too, in time, would come to a cruel end. It is the way of creation, my son.”

Rodare could barely hold his thoughts in check. He knew that he had fought alongside Anshar for billions of years. He knew that eventually, he, too, would succumb to the darkness if he continued in battle. Tears filled his eyes and he felt anger begin to grow in his heart.

“Father, we are your servants, spare us this fate. Please restore us!” Rodare shouted.

Silence filled the space surrounding the nimbus of light that carried the angels. They floated along in the soft breeze and dared not move as they waited for an answer from the Creator.

“There is a way…but it will require much sacrifice. Many humans in the lower worlds may die in order that you might live.”

“I have given my life to protect all who serve you, Father. Is there no other way?” Anshar replied.

“The balance of the universe is a very delicate thing, my son. Change one life, and millions of others are affected. Your life as an angel is coming to an end. However, you can, should you choose, attempt to begin a new life.”

“A new life? In what form, Father?” Anshar questioned.

“Though it has never been attempted before, I will give you the chance to enter into a human form. In this form, you may attempt to achieve immortality and return to the Celestial World as an Immortal. In an Immortal form, you will not die and you would retain all the powers and abilities that you have amassed during those lifetimes. You would also retain those abilities that you attained as a Gatherer.”

“Father, why would this risk the lives of humans in the lower worlds?” Anshar asked.

“The First Darkness has already begun to consume you, my son. You have a few short millennia in which to accomplish your task before the madness that accompanies this force consumes you. As it consumes you, you will have no choice but to cause much suffering. It is the way of things.”

“And if I do nothing, Father, what then?”

“You will die in madness, my son.”

“Is there no other choice, Father?”

“None that I may allow, my son.”

Silence once again filled the space within the throne as both angels silently pondered the weight of the news that the Creator of Heaven and Earth had just visited upon them. Anshar knew that the words of the healer had been true, but hearing the finality of the Creator’s declaration gave the enormity of the words new weight.

Rodare saw his future flash before his eyes. He did not wish to suffer the same fate as his partner. He could no longer restrain himself.

“Father, what of my fate? I do not yet suffer from this darkness. What is to become of me?”

“Rodare, my son, you have more time than Anshar. The darkness has not yet caught you in its grasp. There is a way that you might escape its grip. But it would mean that you must leave my service and depart from the higher worlds.”

“But, Father, I have always lived to serve you. I could not bear to leave you or my brethren.”

“I will give each of you the answers that you seek, and then I will conclude this audience. Anshar, you will be granted the space of 10,000 human years in which to complete the process of incarnating into a human form. You must gather 108 human souls, fashion them into the soul of a Gathering Angel, and place this soul into that of a human female.

This female must then give birth to a form that is capable of carrying the soul to term. Following the birth of the soul within that body, you may begin life as an Immortal. I will grant you a world within the astral plane from which you may perform this task. I caution you, you may not directly gather these souls yourself; rather, you must find a suitable vessel to carry out this task for you. Your presence in the astral world will cause enough damage.

Your vessel may accomplish this task during the course of a series of otherwise normal lifetimes. If in your mission you fail to complete this task in the allotted time, you will die, my son. Rodare, I grant you leave from the service of the Gatherers. You may enter into the lower worlds. You may choose the world you wish to enter and there you may live your life as an Immortal. In this way, you may avoid gathering the force that poisons you during battle and live your life in peace. It is the only way to stop the progression of the madness.

You may not alert innocent humans to your presence and you may not assist Anshar in the performance of his quest.

Both of you would be wise not to attempt to circumvent my edicts in this manner. Do you understand?”

Anshar and Rodare spoke in unison.

“Yes, Father.”

“So let it be done.”

[crystaleye]

In my view, the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel will eventually succumb to the evil within himself and end up becoming the monster which he has spent all his existences destroying.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

In order to avert the terrible faith, the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel has to change his alignments into Neutral Good in order to redeem his soul.

Any being who continuously use Evil Powers Evil Magick will attract the energies and forces of evil towards him which will eventually eradicate his soul and turn him into a demon, even if the being use Evil Powers Evil Magick in the service of good.

This is what resonates with my heart.

Appreciate your comments on this turn of matters. :)

[razorback]

This reminds me of Chiwetel Ejiofor in Serenity.


The Operative : I'm sorry. If your quarry goes to ground, leave no ground to go to. You should have taken my offer. Or did you think none of this was your fault?

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : I don't murder children.

The Operative : I do. If I have to.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : Why? Do you even know why they sent you?

The Operative : It's not my place to ask. I believe in something greater than myself. A better world. A world without sin.

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds : So me and mine gotta lay down and die... so you can live in your better world?

The Operative : I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there... any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.



Maybe watch that for inspiration?

[Particle_Man]

Well the warlock comes to mind. You could be lawful evil and then take a prestige class for warlocks that is about redemption and becoming good. Warlock is in complete arcane and the prestige class in question is Enlightened Spirit in complete mage.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff:There seems to be real potential here for further real world religion references. This thread can stay open, but avoid those.

[Anthrowhale]

I wanted to second the use of vile feats as both evil and extra terrifying to evil victims who need a hallow effect (or similar) to actually recover. A double dose of irony is at hand if evil victims end up getting redeemed through repeated exposure to good and the evil attacker completely falls.

Violate spell can be used freely and in conjunction many extra damaging effects via Arcane Thesis.

[crystaleye]

Sheriff:There seems to be real potential here for further real world religion references. This thread can stay open, but avoid those.

Hi Sheriff, I based my characters a lot on real world religion references.

Can you enlighten me on what rules to follow so I can avoid any trouble?

Thanks.

[Hackulator]

Honestly, I'm thinking that a good god wouldn't have an Evil minion using evil powers on it's behalf. That just seems, you know, evil. A Lawful Neutral god, sure.

[Crake]

Hi Sheriff, I based my characters a lot on real world religion references.

Can you enlighten me on what rules to follow so I can avoid any trouble?

Thanks.

There's literally a yellow bar at the top of the forum that says "Welcome back! Be sure you have read and understand the Forum Rules. " with a link to the rules. One of the rules is that ignorance isn't an excuse, so I suggest you go and read up on them.

[Roland St. Jude]

Hi Sheriff, I based my characters a lot on real world religion references.

Can you enlighten me on what rules to follow so I can avoid any trouble?

Thanks.

There's literally a yellow bar at the top of the forum that says "Welcome back! Be sure you have read and understand the Forum Rules. " with a link to the rules. One of the rules is that ignorance isn't an excuse, so I suggest you go and read up on them.Sheriff: Indeed.

Beyond that: 1) this seems like a discussion we should have via Private Message after you've read the Forum Rules and 2) if your discussion needs to include real world religious references, this isn't the forum to do that. The way to post here and avoid any trouble is to not make real world religion references.

[crystaleye]

{Scrubbed}

[The Insanity]

Some might say that Asmodeus is exactly this.

[Thurbane]

I was going to suggest Loki and Bartleby from Dogma (the 1999 Kevin Smith film), but I'm not sure there were "lawful" exactly.

They did try to exploit a "legal loophole" in the divine system, so maybe they were lawful?

[crystaleye]

I just discovered a Marvel Character called "Demogorge the God-Eater".

The concept of the Lawful Evil Avenging Angel in my mind seems to fit this concept. I will reveal more of my inspirations in the future.

Demogorge is hated and feared by most gods, since he will ultimately devour all of them.