Dex vengeance paladin multiclass dip options and etc.

[RingoBongo]

Currently I am a 3rd level vengeance Dex paladin half elf. I took duelist and am sword and boarding with my rapier. Stats (rolled+race bonus):
Strength - 13
Dex - 19
Con - 18
Wis - 12
Int - 5
Charisma - 16
AC - 16/18 (shield on or off)
35 movement - wood elf heritage (grid based game) this was chosen for RP reasons.

In a small party of myself and 3 others (cleric.. with a hammer... Arcane trickster, warlock old one tome), I am the tank....

As I am about to hit my first ASI, I have come to the conclusion that I need to decide now about my multiclass dip direction after level 6 paladin.

Option 1: dip 3 in rogue swashbuckler, take althetics expertise, and buy shield master feat for first ASI, then elven accuracy feat, then defensive duelist feat, then?

Option 2: dip 3 in fighter battlemaster (trip attack, distracting strike, and menacing), second fighting style as defensive (maybe protection, probably not though), and buy elven accuracy for first ASI, then defensive duelist feat, then?

Side note: depending on whether we'll actually get to 20 I may dip 4 levels in either for earlier feat (or one in forge cleric). I do like 17 paladin though for at least one 5th level slot but again. We may never get there.

I know there's probably better options for dpr or tanking. But this is my RP flavor and I've really thought alot of this through and have finally came to this conclusion.

I'm interested to see what you might think; any feedback is welcome and appreciated 😁

[BreaktheStatue]

I had a dex vengence pally who dipped hexblade (original, I know!), but if you're choosing between swashbuckler and fighter for RP, I'd go with the rogue.

[RingoBongo]

I had a dex vengence pally who dipped hexblade (original, I know!), but if you're choosing between swashbuckler and fighter for RP, I'd go with the rogue.
I almost considered it... But I can't bear the complexity of two different spellcasters. Especially with how different warlock slots are from others. I prefer to keep things a little more simple.

Thanks for the input though. RP wise they both work for me... I imagine the swashbucklers sneak attack as an ambiguous cool maneuver, maybe a shield bash or an attack with an elbow to the spine or something like that ( very theater of the mind) but the figher has a tiny bit more versatility in manuevers but they're less theater of mind and limited per day.

RP flavor now kind of demands a which option is better in combat analysis.

[OracularPoet]

With those stats, barbarian dip? Can still smite, would have 20AC naked + shield, and then have advantage on DEX saves. If are getting Shield Master + Rogue Athletics Expertise, would be excellent grappler with realistic half-evasion effect. Rage would be after thought (except for grappling), but it’s there and you could still smite. Go crazy and do Barb 2, Rogue 1 and then Sorc 1 for Shield and Absorb Elements. Warcaster + BB would be nice but difficult to fit in.

[Crgaston]

Off the cuff Combat Analysis:

Rogue 1 gets you Expertise on your Shield Master shoves and +1d6 possible DPR.

Rogue 2 gets you Cunning Action, which could be ferocious on a Dex Paladin.

Rogue 3 (Swashbuckler) gets you +2d6 probable DPR and the ability to use your Cunning Action to Dash while avoiding Opportunity Attacks. So you can be anywhere on the battlefield and even melee-kite... set it up so they have to take an OA from the Assassin to get to you.

Fighter 1 gets you another self-heal option and a Fighting Style. Protection is great for you, but so is Archery or Defense.

Fighter 2 gets you Action Surge. Nova like a boss.

Fighter 3 (Battlemaster) gets you +4d8 DPShort Rest, and some nifty tricks.

IMO, Rogue is definitely the better package overall, but Fighter does enable a fantastic nova. If you're often doing 1 big fight per game day, or even Short Rest, the potential 4d6 (short sword) + 4d8 (BM dice) + 10d8 (Smites) in 1 round (at level 9) is certainly tempting.

[BreaktheStatue]

I almost considered it... But I can't bear the complexity of two different spellcasters. Especially with how different warlock slots are from others. I prefer to keep things a little more simple.

Thanks for the input though. RP wise they both work for me... I imagine the swashbucklers sneak attack as an ambiguous cool maneuver, maybe a shield bash or an attack with an elbow to the spine or something like that ( very theater of the mind) but the figher has a tiny bit more versatility in manuevers but they're less theater of mind and limited per day.

RP flavor now kind of demands a which option is better in combat analysis.

The sneak attack damage you'll get with rogue will be nice. Between Vow of Enmity and Rakish Audacity, you should almost always be able to apply the extra damage on (if I'm reading this right), basically every turn, as long as you're fighting one-on-one with something and nothing or no one else is within five feet. With a three-level rogue dip, that's an extra 2d6 once a turn. It's not crazy powerful, but it'll add up.

Regular old sneak attack gives you extra damage whenever you have advantage (which is guaranteed on the one enemy you throw VoE on), while Rakish Audacity will give it to you whenever you're fighting someone by yourself, regardless of whether or not you put VoE on your target.

Is your cleric a melee cleric? How close does he normally get to you? As long as you're the only melee working on a target, you should be fine.

[CTurbo]

I REALLY like a Vangeance Pally/Swashbuckler combo especially with those stats. I would not bother with Shield Master though.

[BreaktheStatue]

I REALLY like a Vangeance Pally/Swashbuckler combo especially with those stats. I would not bother with Shield Master though.

For real. As I was examining the build, I was like...you know, I never really thought of this, but now *I* kind of want to try it out.

[Corran]

I would not bother with Shield Master though.
@OP: I am very tempted to second this, but I would like to know more of the party. Particularly about the rogue. If the rogue is a ranged character, then definitely avoid shield master (because then both the rogue and the warlock would not want you to prone enemies, cause ranged attacks against prone targets have disadvantage). Even if the rogue is a melee character, they'll do about as much damage as the warlock, and since the clerics are not that great on attacking with melee attacks, I would say that shield master would not always be a boost for your team (depending on initiative), and even when it will be, it wont be that great of a boost for you to consider spending a precious ASI for it, especially since you can always use one of your attacks to shove someone if you really need to and if initiative made it so that it would be somewhat profitable. Shield master is a feat, the value of which is greatly determined by your party. If your party's dpr's are melee oriented, it's a good feat to consider. If not, then it's probably best to avoid it. For paladins particularly, I think that lvl 12 is a good point to consider shield master, assuming shield master is worth considering as per the previous sentence in the first place. That is because when you get improved divine smite, then it's time to start thinking using your bonus action instead of sacrificing one of your attacks to shove, and that's because your attacks now deal more damage due to IDS, and that means greater opportunity cost whenever you are using one of your attacks to shove/grapple/etc instead of just attacking. Again, if shoving seems like a good idea in the first place. And in your group, shoving enemies does not sound all that great, even if the rogue is a melee character.

Out of fighter or rogue, I'd probably go with the rogue option. Probably aiming for something like paladin6/rogueX.
1) Good AC from being S&B (plus shield of faith, protection from evil, maybe blur but later on, assuming you go with arcane trickster as your rogue subclass; though picking up something that boosts concentration at some point might be useful), 2) extra attack (to get two chances at sneak attack per round), and 3) fighting next to an ally (most likely the cleric, as you want your aura of protection to boost their concentration), all these are probably a good enough base to aim for brining sentinel into play at some point and aim at increasing your dpr (and your control) through sentinel reactionary attacks with a bit of sneak attack (slowly increasing and eventually capping at 7d6) on top of it. Arcane trickster would advance your slot progression and spell selection (very slowly, but better than nothing), so I would go with that.

[BaconAwesome]

Cool build. I know you've already got paladin, but thinking about this from scratch:

- If you start rogue, you end up with Dex and Int saves and 1 extra skill. It will take forever to get to paladin 5, but the rogue goodness starts right away.

- If you start paladin, you end up with Wis and Cha saves and 2 extra hit points. You'll probably get to paladin 4 and 5 sooner, but have to wait for all the rogue stuff.

[Spiritchaser]

Possibly an odd question but:

Are you by any chance using flanking rules?

I don’t in my campaigns, but I play in one that does. I can say that if you do, then the opportunity to combine sneak attack + Elven accuracy + flanking is not to be missed lightly.

[Perlywhirly]

With an Intelligence of 5, how do you feel about having a horse that is smarter than you? (Find Steed Intelligence of 6)

[CTurbo]

An Elf Dex Vengeance Pally/Swashbuckler with Elven Accuracy will flat out destroy a boss using Vow of Enmity.

[RingoBongo]

IMO, Rogue is definitely the better package overall, but Fighter does enable a fantastic nova. If you're often doing 1 big fight per game day, or even Short Rest, the potential 4d6 (short sword) + 4d8 (BM dice) + 10d8 (Smites) in 1 round (at level 9) is certainly tempting.
Where does the 4d6 shortsword come from? I'm a bit confused.
Also interesting point earlier about the kiting an enemy into a rogue AoO. I'll keep that in mind.


Is your cleric a melee cleric? How close does he normally get to you? As long as you're the only melee working on a target, you should be fine.

Yes, he is typically in melee range and uses a war hammer. And I'm not sure about which domain he chose. I'm sure with more spell slots and team combat experience he would learn to keep distance for rakish audacity to work most of the time.


I REALLY like a Vangeance Pally/Swashbuckler combo especially with those stats. I would not bother with Shield Master though.
Hmmm... The only reason I would want this is because I hardly have a use for my BA. It might be a wasted feat until 12 as Corran explains. At which point I will have more spell slots that could fill that void.


@OP: I am very tempted to second this, but I would like to know more of the party. Particularly about the rogue. If the rogue is a ranged character, then definitely avoid shield master (because then both the rogue and the warlock would not want you to prone enemies, cause ranged attacks against prone targets have disadvantage). Even if the rogue is a melee character, they'll do about as much damage as the warlock, and since the clerics are not that great on attacking with melee attacks, I would say that shield master would not always be a boost for your team (depending on initiative), and even when it will be, it wont be that great of a boost for you to consider spending a precious ASI for it, especially since you can always use one of your attacks to shove someone if you really need to and if initiative made it so that it would be somewhat profitable. Shield master is a feat, the value of which is greatly determined by your party. If your party's dpr's are melee oriented, it's a good feat to consider. If not, then it's probably best to avoid it. For paladins particularly, I think that lvl 12 is a good point to consider shield master, assuming shield master is worth considering as per the previous sentence in the first place. That is because when you get improved divine smite, then it's time to start thinking using your bonus action instead of sacrificing one of your attacks to shove, and that's because your attacks now deal more damage due to IDS, and that means greater opportunity cost whenever you are using one of your attacks to shove/grapple/etc instead of just attacking. Again, if shoving seems like a good idea in the first place. And in your group, shoving enemies does not sound all that great, even if the rogue is a melee character.

Out of fighter or rogue, I'd probably go with the rogue option. Probably aiming for something like paladin6/rogueX.
1) Good AC from being S&B (plus shield of faith, protection from evil, maybe blur but later on, assuming you go with arcane trickster as your rogue subclass; though picking up something that boosts concentration at some point might be useful), 2) extra attack (to get two chances at sneak attack per round), and 3) fighting next to an ally (most likely the cleric, as you want your aura of protection to boost their concentration), all these are probably a good enough base to aim for brining sentinel into play at some point and aim at increasing your dpr (and your control) through sentinel reactionary attacks with a bit of sneak attack (slowly increasing and eventually capping at 7d6) on top of it. Arcane trickster would advance your slot progression and spell selection (very slowly, but better than nothing), so I would go with that.

The rogue does both ranged and melee. Plays a bit skittish tbh.
Good point about shield master, I am already reconsidering it.
Finally, I am only going to dip 3 maybe 4, as I want to utilize the paladin spells and other class features to support my party in different ways. Also, I like to keep it more simple and mcing with arcane trickster adds another caster. I prefer to shy away from that scenario.


Possibly an odd question but:

Are you by any chance using flanking rules?

I don’t in my campaigns, but I play in one that does. I can say that if you do, then the opportunity to combine sneak attack + Elven accuracy + flanking is not to be missed lightly.

Not sure... He did mention something once. But it was right before I crit and destroyed the monster altogether. I'll make it a point to get more clarification on this because I totally agree with you 💯


With an Intelligence of 5, how do you feel about having a horse that is smarter than you? (Find Steed Intelligence of 6)

It's terrible. I have good ideas for us in managing decisions in the campaign and I roll to see if I can share them with the group or instead say some random dumb thing.


An Elf Dex Vengeance Pally/Swashbuckler with Elven Accuracy will flat out destroy a boss using Vow of Enmity.

Yeah, I'm definitely getting that feat. Plus defensive duelist as I have no reliable reaction use. Additionally, I prefer to keep things more simple in combat and I feel like sentinel is a bit too much and doesn't really allow for battle to be more streamlined through everyone's turns. Lss I hate turns that take forever.

[Crgaston]

Where does the 4d6 shortsword come from? I'm a bit confused.
Also interesting point earlier about the kiting an enemy into a rogue AoO. I'll keep that in mind.



Sorry, 2 attacks + Action Surge for 2 more = 4 attacks... 4d6 total possible from short sword in a nova round. I specified short sword because most people would use a rapier for the d8, but I have an aesthetic aversion to rapiers on most characters.

[RingoBongo]

Sorry, 2 attacks + Action Surge for 2 more = 4 attacks... 4d6 total possible from short sword in a nova round. I specified short sword because most people would use a rapier for the d8, but I have an aesthetic aversion to rapiers on most characters.

Ah, okay.. and that's funny, I too hate the idea of a rapier. I got my dm to sign off on a falcata as the same thing only slashing damage.

[RingoBongo]

So after thinking more about this, I'm probably going to side with the rogue dip. I'll dip 3 in swashbuckler right after paladin 5 or 6. I'll take elven accuracy (+1 Dex) for first ASI as it provides unparalleled synergy.

For my other 3 ASI I'm considering defensive duelist, +2 charisma, and mobile (I'll have +8/9 initiative and 45 movement. I will be first and I will establish the fighting grounds in front of my team and tank.) ... Maybe not mobile, idk...

What do you think of these ASI choices? What order would be best? Any other ASI suggestions I should consider?

[CTurbo]

I'd take Paladin 6 before going Swashbuckler. I'd also consider taking 5 straight levels of Rogue for ASI, a 3rd d6 sneak die, and Uncanny Dodge. As far as feats, I agree with

1. Elven Accuracy
2. +2 Cha
3. Defensive Duelist
4. Mobile

Other options for 4th feat would be Inspiring Leader, Magic Initiate(Sorc, Bard, or Warlock), or Lucky.

Defensive Duelist and Uncanny Dodge both use your reaction but between the two they provide a great layer of defense. Uncanny Dodge will help all the times Defensive Duelist won't.

[Pez5150]

With those stats, barbarian dip? Can still smite, would have 20AC naked + shield, and then have advantage on DEX saves. If are getting Shield Master + Rogue Athletics Expertise, would be excellent grappler with realistic half-evasion effect. Rage would be after thought (except for grappling), but it’s there and you could still smite. Go crazy and do Barb 2, Rogue 1 and then Sorc 1 for Shield and Absorb Elements. Warcaster + BB would be nice but difficult to fit in.

I wouldn't dip barbarian, you'd be fighting for action economy between the classes. Anytime you rage you can't cast spells which includes smite. His channel divinity wouldn't be usable either.

[Pez5150]

If you want some good info what you could multiclass into this link is a good start. Just check out the paladin / other class combos.

Just google Ultimate Optimizer's Multiclassing Guide.

Your best multiclasses would be bard, sorc, or warlock. If you don't care for optomized you could dip cleric. Something like war or forged domain would be great. If you multiclass into a melee, I'd generally only go to 4th level so you don't overlap extra attack on 5th and get some more ASIs. Rogue is probably the best place to dip if you want some expertise. Fighter is a great pick if you plan to only dip 2 levels because action surge is fantastic on any class, but you'll start losing your classes' specialization in burst damage because you'll be overall a lower level spell caster later on.

Keep in mind in unless you did a second spellcaster you're likely to lower your burst damage since paladins rely so much on spell slots to smite people with divine fury.

An incredible multiclass is the paladin/sorc. Just imagine using quicken spell metamagic to cast green flame blade as a bonus action. You could get 2 attacks, then a third with the GFB. You'd be trading long term sustainment for higher damage output in the term so be aware it'll use your resources quicker so you'll want save those spell slots and sorc points for really tough bosses.

Sorry for the wall of text, just some food for thought.

[Vogie]

I wouldn't dip barbarian, you'd be fighting for action economy between the classes. Anytime you rage you can't cast spells which includes smite. His channel divinity wouldn't be usable either.

That's completely wrong. They can absolutely use Divine Smite while raging, as well as Channel Divinities - these aren't spells, nor do they use concentration (except for Oath of Treachery's Conjure Duplicate). You won't be able to use the Spells with the word smite in them, such as Wrathful or Branding Smite, but they're spells.


Option 3:
Because the OP has basically nothing going on in their Bonus action zone right now, going Storm Herald Barbarian to gain the ability to reduce mundane damage by half, then throw in some more utility or damage. Sea would give you a lightning attack each bonus action, while Tundra would reapply 2 THP each turn as a BA, which would be useful if you have other people in range.

Alternatively, since you are the tank and probably main melee, going Zealot would increase damage dealt while saving the cleric money when they inevitably have to revive you.

Note: Since you're a Dexadin, You'd get Unarmored Defense (giving you 18 AC naked, with your stats, or 20 with a shield) and Danger Sense. You won't get the additional damage from rage, nor get the use of Reckless attack, since you aren't using Strength.

[Pez5150]

That's completely wrong. They can absolutely use Divine Smite while raging, as well as Channel Divinities - these aren't spells, nor do they use concentration (except for Oath of Treachery's Conjure Duplicate). You won't be able to use the Spells with the word smite in them, such as Wrathful or Branding Smite, but they're spells.

Option 3:
Because the OP has basically nothing going on in their Bonus action zone right now, going Storm Herald Barbarian to gain the ability to reduce mundane damage by half, then throw in some more utility or damage. Sea would give you a lightning attack each bonus action, while Tundra would reapply 2 THP each turn as a BA, which would be useful if you have other people in range.

Alternatively, since you are the tank and probably main melee, going Zealot would increase damage dealt while saving the cleric money when they inevitably have to revive you.

Note: Since you're a Dexadin, You'd get Unarmored Defense (giving you 18 AC naked, with your stats, or 20 with a shield) and Danger Sense. You won't get the additional damage from rage, nor get the use of Reckless attack, since you aren't using Strength.


Sorry, I didn't clarify better, yes divine smite isn't a spell, but it uses a spell slot and works with barbarian rage. Just like you said the other smites that aren't class features can't be used while raging.

You're explaining what I meant by your options competing with each other. You can either burst damage like a paladin normally would and use your bonus action for smite spells or you can barbarian rage and not get the damage bonus nor get the use of reckless attack.

If you go Fighter \ battle master 4 you can get some neat ASI's, action surge, second wind, second fighting style(I suggest defence if you don't have it) and some maneuver dice(you could choose parry).

With barbarian you get d12 health dice, unarmored defence, danger sense, and are forced to pick spell casting during battle or rage for resistance to piercing, blunt, and slashing.

I'm not saying you have to minmax the optimization, but getting barbarian sounds like he'll feel gimped as a paladin.

Edit: additionally, you need to consider later levels not just the immediate benefits.

[Misterwhisper]

I would not MC anything until level 7.

Bard is not going to help unless you go blades bard but kind of redundant.
Barbarian is ok, rage is great but not so much when you use Dex for things, you are just taking a class for damage resistance.
Cleric is out as you don't have the wis for it yet.
Druid does not blend too well with vengeance, I could see it if you were ancients though.
Fighter, you already get a fighting style, armor and weapon choices. You could take 2 levels for defensive style and action surge, but don't really need it.
Monk, don't have the wisdom for it.
Ranger, dex based is not bad already, and deep stalker is very nice and fits well but is it really better than 3 more levels of paladin?
Rogue, 2 expertise at level 1 is nice, Cunning Action is great at 2, level 3 swashbuckler or scout is nice. This is a maybe.
Sorcerer, if you want a lot more casting it can work well, but it is really just more smite fuel and some utility.
Warlock, well let's face it, it is good for a paladin, very good but with your high dex, hex blade is kind of redundant. Think maybe Celestial/Chain.
Wizard, not even close to enough int.

Personally I would not dip anything, take your ASI and stay paladin.
If you really want to dip though 2 or 3 levels of warlock or rogue at most.

[RingoBongo]

I'd take Paladin 6 before going Swashbuckler. I'd also consider taking 5 straight levels of Rogue for ASI, a 3rd d6 sneak die, and Uncanny Dodge. As far as feats, I agree with

1. Elven Accuracy
2. +2 Cha
3. Defensive Duelist
4. Mobile

Other options for 4th feat would be Inspiring Leader, Magic Initiate(Sorc, Bard, or Warlock), or Lucky.

Defensive Duelist and Uncanny Dodge both use your reaction but between the two they provide a great layer of defense. Uncanny Dodge will help all the times Defensive Duelist won't.
Thanks! This is actually a pretty good alternative ( 5 dip instead of 3) if I decide to just scrap having a 5th level spell slot all together. Inspiring leader seems great too depending on how things are going. I'll never take lucky though as it seems too op.



Option 3:
Because the OP has basically nothing going on in their Bonus action zone right now, going Storm Herald Barbarian to gain the ability to reduce mundane damage by half, then throw in some more utility or damage. Sea would give you a lightning attack each bonus action, while Tundra would reapply 2 THP each turn as a BA, which would be useful if you have other people in range.

I see your point, I even looked into it further. However, it's just not sitting well with me. Either it makes things too complicated or I just don't like the RP flavor. But that is for the viable suggestion!



I would not MC anything until level 7.

Personally I would not dip anything, take your ASI and stay paladin.
If you really want to dip though 2 or 3 levels of warlock or rogue at most.

Why 7? Vengence ability at 7 seems lackluster to me...

Yeah, so it's pretty much decided. If I do mc it's rogue and it's 3 or 5 dip after at least paladin 6. ASIs: elven accuracy, +2 cha for sure.
Other ASI options: defensive duelist, inspiring leader, mobile.

[RingoBongo]

If rogue dip....

Whixh two should I expertise? Theives' tools, stealth +6, slight of hand +6, athletics +3, or intimidation +5?

[Misterwhisper]

Thanks! This is actually a pretty good alternative ( 5 dip instead of 3) if I decide to just scrap having a 5th level spell slot all together. Inspiring leader seems great too depending on how things are going. I'll never take lucky though as it seems too op.


I see your point, I even looked into it further. However, it's just not sitting well with me. Either it makes things too complicated or I just don't like the RP flavor. But that is for the viable suggestion!




Why 7? Vengence ability at 7 seems lackluster to me...

Yeah, so it's pretty much decided. If I do mc it's rogue and it's 3 or 5 dip after at least paladin 6. ASIs: elven accuracy, +2 cha for sure.
Other ASI options: defensive duelist, inspiring leader, mobile.

I meant take your first level of another class at 7.

[Misterwhisper]

If rogue dip....

What should I expertise? Theives' tools, stealth, slight of hand, athletics, or intimidation?

Perception and investigation.

[RingoBongo]

Perception and investigation.

yeah I agree I had those at least perception I can't remember what the other one was but I took wood elf heritage instead for an extra 5 ft base on movement. I guess maybe my background could have been different instead of urchin. But games already on... Those are my only choices.

[RingoBongo]

Is intimidation/frighten in combat a thing?

Will stealth synergize with my action econmy and combat tank needs? Seems very situational.

Stealing **** is always cool.

Damn. I just realized I'm Captain Jack Sparrow.

Opening chests of treasure..

And bounding with some abnormal strength.

[CTurbo]

Perception and intimidation would be good

[RingoBongo]

Can I do a slight of hand magically infused flourish crit with elven accuracy and disarm my opponent?

[CTurbo]

Can I do a slight of hand magically infused flourish crit with elven accuracy and disarm my opponent?

That's a question for your DM

[RingoBongo]

That's a question for your DM
I know I got carried away...

I think I'll have alot more fun doing that than casting a 5th level spell, accessing lvl 20 vengence feature, and whatever else I might be missing. Not fully optimized but good for tanking while putting up decent damage numbers.

Seems even worth it putting off attack reaction of vengance at 15 until much later 17 or 20. As I will have other useful and reliable defensive reactions in cunning action and defensive duelist. And also the reaction feature after an opportunity attack to move from 17-20 feat (depending on mobile feat or not).

With such mobility I could set up another stealthed advantage attack depending on terrian and follow up series. That chips away at any groups and skips around to kite baddies off allies. Potentially 62 feet moved per round not including a dash bonus action.

[BarneyBent]

I know you said you weren’t keen on multiclassing spellcasters, but a Divine Soul Sorcerer gets you more slots for smite, and two of the best-scaling spells in the game, Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians. A Paladin 6/Sorcerer 3 has the spell slots of a level 6 spellcaster, which means 2 3rd level slots, 3 2nd and 4 1st. You’ve got Shield Spells, more Smites, and Spiritual Weapons on your bonus action. At Sorcerer 5 you can get Spirit Guardians which will add to your effective DPR massively, and scales with higher spell slots fantastically. Plus you get cantrips.

Multiclassing spellcasters is also much simpler than it seems. Half Paladin plus all Sorcerer. That’s your spellcasting level from a slots perspective. Then figure out your spells known/prepared on an individual basis.

[RingoBongo]

That should be a thing though... If you crit and use your sneak attack, you may forgo half the damage of the sneak attack and perform a combat manuever effect without the damage. That seems very swashbucklery.

[RingoBongo]

I'd take Paladin 6 before going Swashbuckler. I'd also consider taking 5 straight levels of Rogue for ASI, a 3rd d6 sneak die, and Uncanny Dodge. As far as feats, I agree with

1. Elven Accuracy
2. +2 Charisma
3. Defensive duelist
4. Mobile

Other options for 4th feat would be Inspiring Leader, Magic Initiate(Sorc, Bard, or Warlock), or Lucky

I was wondering which magic initiate spells would you recommend? I know booming blade would be pretty nasty. But IDK what I'd choose for the other. what might be also good for my build.

I'm thinking bard...?

Cantrips: vicious mockery and true strike? Or utility one that group doesnt have
Level 1: faire fire ( or maybe dissonant whispers if I am overlapping advantage gain too much, or if i may not have good enough concentration saves. I probably won't pick up resiliant con or warcaster)

For warlock...

Cantrips: sword burst and true strike? Or maybe a utility one that my group doesnt have.

Level 1: hex or cause fear...

[Snowbluff]

I mean, I'd take Arcane Trickster for spell slotprogression and getting important spells like Shield Absorb Elements but you already had an AA. :smalltongue:

I've always considered doing a Devotion Paladin (Holy Weapon Stacks better than the advantage from Vengeance, and works versus more enemies) with some arcane trickster, picking up a sunblade, ignoring the ruling on the great weapon fighting style and just needlessly toss dice around. Plus, I'd get some cool RP opportunities this way, like maybe a ruby knight vindicator. :smalltongue:

[CTurbo]

I was wondering which magic initiate spells would you recommend? I know booming blade would be pretty nasty. But IDK what I'd choose for the other. what might be also good for my build.

I'm thinking bard...?

Cantrips: vicious mockery and true strike? Or utility one that group doesnt have
Level 1: faire fire ( or maybe dissonant whispers if I am overlapping advantage gain too much, or if i may not have good enough concentration saves. I probably won't pick up resiliant con or warcaster)

For warlock...

Cantrips: sword burst and true strike? Or maybe a utility one that my group doesnt have.

Level 1: hex or cause fear...

Bard: Viscious Mockery, Minor Illusion, and Faerie Fire

Warlock: Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast, and I would say Hex but you already get Hex right? Not sure on the spell here.

Wizard gets you Find Familiar

[RingoBongo]

No, I do not get hex. I get hunter's mark. Which might stack well?

I am trying to imagine how this choice might help determine how my combat goes... What it looks like.

For warlock:
With extra attack and sneak attack, I can't imagine I'd get much use out of booming blade. Unless their immune to physical damage. Unless I can cast it on a reaction attack?

If hex stacks that could be good to line up with hunter's mark and vow of emnity. Or just save hex for when I do use vow of emnity. Overall seems very situational.

I don't want to step on the other warlocks toes and be all eldritch blasty, that's his thing.

For bard:
Vicious mockery is a great tool for bolstering another's defense at range. And it always fun to come up with a nasty thing to say to the enemy.

Faire fire seems great too! Though I'm worried about casting on allies and keeping up concentration without resiliant or war caster.

Minor illusion is a utility spell that is already claimed by the warlock. Not sure of the usefulness beyond this.

For socerer:
Find familiar looks cool and useful for utility and battle. I am thinking cat, weasel, or owl, (maybe Raven or bat as we are doing curse of strahd)

Friends spell would be nice. I've already found myself being the face of the group for deception or persuasion checks.

[Shuruke]

if your trying to be the tank I would recemend
4 fighter Battle master and grab martial adept.
Either armor. Style for +1 A.c. or protection style
Probably shouldnt do protection if doing sentinel

Manuevers that would be great for what I think a tank wants at the table

Commander for having the rogue get another option at sneak attack

Distracting to give advantage to an ally

Goading!! to be paired with compelled duel to try to keep as many people having to be on u as possible

Parry 1d8+dex reduction in damage

Rally 1d8+cha temp hp these last till long rest so right before short rest u can expend what u have left

Trip attack to pair with e lven accuracy if u land a trip on your first hit u can action surge to get 2 more and on any crits u can use distracting or goad etc to deal 2d8 extra and have a chance at rider.

Riposte- good option for if u increase ac to 19 with armor style

In the end instead of Swashbuckler rogue I recemend
9 pally for haste since your vengeance
9 pally also gives crusader mantle
Elemental weapon,
And! Aura of vitality.
Id recemend 3 fighter then go to 9pally and back to fighter

11 fighter for improved multi attack if u ever get to 20 but also the extra asi for fighter 6 is nice and could go toward resilient int to get prof in int saves. Cuz feebleminded exists.

[Shuruke]

Also u might wanna look at half plate and medium armor master combo for 18 A.c. without disadvantage on stealth a.c. 20 with shield 21 with armor style

[RingoBongo]

Also u might wanna look at half plate and medium armor master combo for 18 A.c. without disadvantage on stealth a.c. 20 with shield 21 with armor style

I use studded leather. 17 ac without shield, 19 with. From what I've read ac is less useful at higher levels so if I take defensive duelist I can at least fully avoid one attack and have an okay chance at others. Vs a slightly better than okay chance at attacks missing. That's my reasoning, maybe I'm totally wrong. With that armor and that feat I would be at 18/20 ac. 21 yeah if I pick up defensive style in fighter mc... It's kind of a stable alternative to defensive duelist feat if I go fighter I guess.

Also, it appears our rogue may have just dropped the group. Not sure how that affects things, but we're probably going to look for another on roll20. Life cleric, old one tome lock, me, and I wonder what would be best..

[Shuruke]

I use studded leather. 17 ac without shield, 19 with. From what I've read ac is less useful at higher levels so if I take defensive duelist I can at least fully avoid one attack and have an okay chance at others. Vs a slightly better than okay chance at attacks missing. That's my reasoning, maybe I'm totally wrong. With that armor and that feat I would be at 18/20 ac. 21 yeah if I pick up defensive style in fighter mc... It's kind of a stable alternative to defensive duelist feat if I go fighter I guess.

Also, it appears our rogue may have just dropped the group. Not sure how that affects things, but we're probably going to look for another on roll20. Life cleric, old one tome lock, me, and I wonder what would be best..

If possible go for both
The 21 a.c adding +3-+6 as a reaction would make it so even a +11 to hit has to get 13-16 to hit when u use reaction

Medium armor master would be good till prob level 11 then pick up defensive duelist when possible or have parry maneuver to lower damage of hits.

Also when not using aura abikities or compelled duel you'd have shield of faith for +2 for static 23 AC that can be increased with defensive duelist.

Haste also gives +2 a.c. and u get that as vengeance pally

With 9 pally 11 fighter
That's 2 asi pally
And. 3 fighter

For total of 5

Assuming 2 are stat bumps
2 for each of above feats
You can still grab elven accuracy

Otll be personal preference but of u wanna be a tank that has alot of utility and still able to deal considerable damage this is a good build ^.^ but u can dip rogue I am just not huge fan of u missing out on d10 dice tbh with 18 dex 18 con one level barbarian would be better for ac if u dont take armor fighting style . and u can rage when not using spells

[Misterwhisper]

Perception and intimidation would be good

Intimidation is never a skill that needs to be rolled. It is often a trap skill just for your dm to bite you for it later. There is nothing in the game that intimidation can do that persuasion can’t just do instead.

[Mitsu]

Imo best dips are always casters for Paladins... because you don't lose your slots for smites and you even gain more as every caster dip level is full caster dip (apart from Warlock) vs half-caster Paladin levels.

Many people recommended here an Half-Elf Elven Accuracy build... however, while it's true to half-elf on Vengeance Paladin will out scale Variant Human in late levels.. Half-Elf takes really long time to grab every single thing.

For example, taking Elven Accuracy, PAM, RES (CON)/War Caster and +2 CHA would require level: 4, 8 , 12, 16 to have full deck. With Variant Human taking PAM, +2 CHA, RES (CON)/War Caster, +2 CHA would be levels: 1, 4, 8, 12. A full ASI faster you are maxed out. Of course Half-Elf will out scale Vuman in high levels, however it's important to look realistically. Most campaigns/parties don't go further than level 13, maybe max 16. With Variant Human you are maxed out on level 12 or 13.

Both races are top notch for Paladins, but when it comes to Vengeance who greatly benefit from PAM- I prefer Vuman. But both are great, I was just sharing my experience.

Now when it comes to dips for Paladin (I assume you wanted to take Vengeance?):

1. Warlock Hexblade 1 level dip is top notch. You can pump CHA in ASI and your attack ability will be CHA. So best of two words- maxed Aura and attack ability. You also get Curse, which is great when your VoE is down, Shield spell, Booming Blade (which combos with PAM + Relentless Avenger if you go Vengeance) and Eldricht Blast. Also you get 1 spell slot / short rest which is nice for 1-st level buffs like Shield of Faith, Bless, Divine Favour or Shield. Level 2 and 3 can give you Agonizing Blast and Darkness + Devil Sigh combo but imo it's not worth loosing high level smite slots. 1 level dip is imo best here.

2. Sorcerer. If you go Vuman even 1 level Shadow Sorcerer is good- you get Dark Vision for free + Shield and other good stuff. If more levels Divine Soul Sorcerer is great as you can also get Cleric Spells. Generally Sorcerer is just great but I think at least 5 levels dip makes sense. With 5 levels you will get for example Haste + Fireball, which is huge power boost to Paladin. And of course quicken spells.

3. Whisper Bard is good for Physic Blades, though I would suggest at least 5 levels to get 3d6 damage. No other bard subclass is worth it. However you get as many extra slots as with Sorcerer + that extra 3d6 to use when you crit, adding another 6d6 damage to your already devastating crits as Paladin. Good thing is on 10th level you can learn any spell from any spell list. You can give yourself Haste + Find Greater Steed and you don't much from going Bard.

4. Fighter 3 levels for Champion for 19-20 crits is popular, though I don't like it. You lose too much slots and casting progression

5. Cleric - it's not as bad as people say. It's actually interesting how Cleric can handle himself with low WIS. And it's quite "fitting" with Paladin. Not best option, but not worst.

Imo it's like that:

1 level dip- Hexblade hands down. You get TONS of stuff for 1 level and you don't lose anything from Paladin progress. Best dip in game for Paladins. You are also SAD CHA now.

4 + levels dips- Sorcerer or Whishper Bard. Sorcerer boost your casting power and damage a lot and get you faster good spell, while Bard will boost your crits and you can still get Haste and Greater Steed (or whatever else you want) on 10th level.

[RingoBongo]

You make a good point about feat access at earlier levels being a vuman. I would reconsider my race if could go back....

I am not going PAM however. I prefer s and b.

I feel like warlock and paladin are so opposite flavor wise. I can't bring myself to multiclass these two just because they synergize well. I'm sure some do and create a good backstory to make it work, just doesn't sit well with me.

Sorcerer or bard is a nice alternative. But I do prefer non casters more. I still like the fighter or swashbuckler best for a dip.

I appreciate the response though. Very insightful bit about the race selection

[Mitsu]

You make a good point about feat access at earlier levels being a vuman. I would reconsider my race if could go back....

I am not going PAM however. I prefer s and b.

I feel like warlock and paladin are so opposite flavor wise. I can't bring myself to multiclass these two just because they synergize well. I'm sure some do and create a good backstory to make it work, just doesn't sit well with me.

Sorcerer or bard is a nice alternative. But I do prefer non casters more. I still like the fighter or swashbuckler best for a dip.

I appreciate the response though. Very insightful bit about the race selection

But PAM is S&B. Spear + Shield (or Q-staff or Magic Staffs when you dip caster and find one) is devastating on PAM build. Extra attack with +2 AC from Shield? What not to like :)

Staff of Magi + Shield on PAM Vengeance Paladin with dip into Warlock or Sorcerer is scray strong :). There are also some magic spears to get.

Though since you went DEX Paladin, there is not much we can do. You'd have to focus on CHA and dip Hexblade and since you don't want that, let's check your preferable choices:

Between fighter and swash I would choose fighter hands down. Not only you can get second style: So you have Duelist for your S&B (Spear + Shield with PAM) and then you grab Defense for +1 AC from Fighter. You also get Action Surge which is good Nova boost in single turn for Paladin and you also get improved criticals if you went Champion, which you should. You also keep your k10 hit point die.

With Champion you get 19-20 crits which combos best with Elven Accuracy and VoE for triple advantage with better crits. It's not huge boost, but if we already got Elven Accuracy we can at least play with that.

[RingoBongo]

But PAM is S&B. Spear + Shield (or Q-staff or Magic Staffs when you dip caster and find one) is devastating on PAM build. Extra attack with +2 AC from Shield? What not to like :)

Staff of Magi + Shield on PAM Vengeance Paladin with dip into Warlock or Sorcerer is scray strong :). There are also some magic spears to get.

Though since you went DEX Paladin, there is not much we can do. You'd have to focus on CHA and dip Hexblade and since you don't want that, let's check your preferable choices:

Between fighter and swash I would choose fighter hands down. Not only you can get second style: So you have Duelist for your S&B (Spear + Shield with PAM) and then you grab Defense for +1 AC from Fighter. You also get Action Surge which is good Nova boost in single turn for Paladin and you also get improved criticals if you went Champion, which you should. You also keep your k10 hit point die.

With Champion you get 19-20 crits which combos best with Elven Accuracy and VoE for triple advantage with better crits. It's not huge boost, but if we already got Elven Accuracy we can at least play with that.

I do see your point. I'm all for upvoting this as the best option overall for a vengeance dip. I just feel like I started off on the wrong foot with high dex selection. Nothing in PAM is finesse. With this group and my role I should have probably went a different route. I feel I was locked into the look and feel of my character and made decisions on that without thinking it all the way through.

I will probably never have a chance to truely sword and board paladin/swashbuckler mc again. So I will stick with that and fill a little gap as a stealthy/ slight of hand or thieves tools skill monkey in place of the rouge. Also, I don't think it's terrible; just not really optimized. I made that mistake from the beginning when I put 18 on Dex.

Paladin 6, then rogue 4 or 5, then paladin rest. I doubt we'll make it to 20.

Feats in order: elven accuracy, magic initiate (bard), and defensive duelist (Get the goodies early on and have some fun). Though I wish I would have gone human to add more feats like mobile or something.

Had I put my 18 in strength and 13 in dex I would go fighter in this scenario.

[CTurbo]

You'll love the Swashbuckler dip

[Mitsu]

I do see your point. I'm all for upvoting this as the best option overall for a vengeance dip. I just feel like I started off on the wrong foot with high dex selection. Nothing in PAM is finesse. With this group and my role I should have probably went a different route. I feel I was locked into the look and feel of my character and made decisions on that without thinking it all the way through.

I will probably never have a chance to truely sword and board paladin/swashbuckler mc again. So I will stick with that and fill a little gap as a stealthy/ slight of hand or thieves tools skill monkey in place of the rouge. Also, I don't think it's terrible; just not really optimized. I made that mistake from the beginning when I put 18 on Dex.

Paladin 6, then rogue 4 or 5, then paladin rest. I doubt we'll make it to 20.

Feats in order: elven accuracy, magic initiate (bard), and defensive duelist (Get the goodies early on and have some fun). Though I wish I would have gone human to add more feats like mobile or something.

Had I put my 18 in strength and 13 in dex I would go fighter in this scenario.

If you go Paladin/Swash, it's better to go 4 levels, not 5. You lose ASI if you will go odd level. ASI if every 4 levels. You will already delay your spell slots, spells (like haste) and Improved Divine Smite by A LOT. So if you go like that:

1. Paladin
2. Paladin
3. Paladin
4. Paladin - ASI
5. Paladin
6. Paladin
7. Rogue
8. Rogue
9. Rogue
10. Rogue - ASI.
11-13. Paladin
14. Paladin - ASI

You get only 3 ASI as Half-Elf till level 12 (no dip) and you already push that 2 levels because you dip at level 6. So your second ASI is pushed from level 8 to 10, and third from level 12 to 14. Last ASI you will get on Level 18, which you may never see. So it's already stretching a lot, but at least you only push that 2 levels.

If you go Rogue 5, this is becoming much worse.:

1-3. Paladin
4. Paladin - ASI
5 - 6. Paladin
7-9. Rogue
10. Rogue - ASI
11. Rogue (5th Level Rogue)
12-14. Paladin
15. Paladin - ASI.

With 5 dip you delay your third ASI by whole 3 levels! You also lose last 5th ASI and your 4th ASI is now level 19. This is huge delay. I would not go that way. Paladin on multi-classing, especially if you took Half-Elf is already ASI-stretched because 9/10 multi builds take 6 levels of Paladin to grab extra attack and aura. Which will already delay your ASI. However, classes like Sorcerer are worth delaying ASI because you get so much in returns (spells, damage, meta magic, smite slots etc.). Rogue is not worth it in my opinion, but if you have to take it- go 4 levels, not 5.

Generally speaking unless you have some extra super duper stuff to get from class (like paladin lvl 5 and 6) you want to multiclass in a way to not lose or delay ASI. So either 1 level, 4 levels, 8 levels, 12 levels dip etc.

Swash 5th level is absolutely, positively NOT worth delaying your ASI by 3 levels. Also remember that by taking 4 levels of Swash already you are delaying your caster progression as Paladin by a lot. You won't see Haste from Vengeance Paladin till level 13 (if 4 level dip) or until level 14 (if 5 level dip). You also delay your Improved Divine Smite (extra 1k8 on every attack) to level 15! (if you took 4 levels dip).

Vengeance Paladin with Haste on + Soul of Vengeance (without PAM) can get 3-4 attacks per turn on one target, resulting in high chance for extra 3-4k8 damage from IDS, which is better than Sneak attack on Rogue at your level, which can only happen once per turn.

Something to think about so you are not dissapointed later. Play what you prefer and have fun, I just share some info with you so you can make best decision.

[Shuruke]

How many asi are possible as a palladin multiclass?
I think 12 palladin 8 fighter for 6

Even without str fighter is a good multiclass for pally especially samurai mix with elven accuracy for the advantage and temp hp

The 5 ask 9 pally 11 fighter gives pally third level spells and action surge which can really let u zerg when u get advantage and wanna go crit fishing with Elven accuracy

Either way id recemend going 9 pally before rogue or anything
Pally third level spells are to good to delay.
Doing the rogue multiclass 16 pally 4 rogue take alert with ASI would be funny option
17 pally 3 rogue could also be good.
Best of all worlds would be
Pally 12
Rogue 4
Fighter 4
For 5 asi 2d6 sneak, cha to Intiative, armor fighting style or protection. Action surge to action surge held action for another sneak attack.minor fighter self heal as bonus action.
Armor style or say screw my shield and dual rapier with dual wielder
Studded leather +5 dex +1 armor style
For 18 without shield or dual wielder
Haste or shield of faith for up to 22 a.c. with shield. Take magic intiate sorc and grab shield spell (lasts full round defensive duelist is one attack) for 27ac
If u wanna mini max for a.c. then
Medium armor master half plate
19ac shield donned makes 21
Haste 23
Shield spell 28 haha

[Mitsu]

How many asi are possible as a palladin multiclass?
I think 12 palladin 8 fighter for 6

Even without str fighter is a good multiclass for pally especially samurai mix with elven accuracy for the advantage and temp hp

The 5 ask 9 pally 11 fighter gives pally third level spells and action surge which can really let u zerg when u get advantage and wanna go crit fishing with Elven accuracy

Either way id recemend going 9 pally before rogue or anything
Pally third level spells are to good to delay.
Doing the rogue multiclass 16 pally 4 rogue take alert with ASI would be funny option
17 pally 3 rogue could also be good.
Best of all worlds would be
Pally 12
Rogue 4
Fighter 4
For 5 asi 2d6 sneak, cha to Intiative, armor fighting style or protection. Action surge to action surge held action for another sneak attack.minor fighter self heal as bonus action.
Armor style or say screw my shield and dual rapier with dual wielder
Studded leather +5 dex +1 armor style
For 18 without shield or dual wielder
Haste or shield of faith for up to 22 a.c. with shield. Take magic intiate sorc and grab shield spell (lasts full round defensive duelist is one attack) for 27ac
If u wanna mini max for a.c. then
Medium armor master half plate
19ac shield donned makes 21
Haste 23
Shield spell 28 haha

This here is also good OP if you want non-caster Paladin. Though you will have almost no slots for medium or high-damage smites, but if you want to go more for warrior-like Paladin and you can pass smites- this is also very good option.

[RingoBongo]

Hmm interesting. I think this is what I was going for in my head. Anything beyond level 12 is not super necessary. Aside from the the reaction attack on vow, I really don't think I'm missing out on much. Obviously spell slots, but those high level slots seem so extra out there that I can't really imagine my character doing anyone those ludicrous things. And I only get a few of them over many levels of progression. The only high level spells I could imagine my character taking is at least one of the level 4 auras. But even then I don't feel like I'm missing out...

I could go with one less ASI and do fighter 3 and rogue 5 as I feel uncanny dodge is a great layer of defense worthy of comparison to any other feat. This way I'll also get another sneak attack die. What do you all think about that?

I'm zeroing in on it now guys I can feel it.

1st 3 feats in order: elven accuracy, magic initiate (bard), and defensive duelist, not sure what for fourth...

Now level progression: paladin 9, rogue 4, paladin 12, fighter 3, rogue 5?

Thoughts?

[Mitsu]

Hmm interesting. I think this is what I was going for in my head. Anything beyond level 12 is not super necessary. Aside from the the reaction attack on vow, I really don't think I'm missing out on much. Obviously spell slots, but those high level slots seem so extra out there that I can't really imagine my character doing anyone those ludicrous things. And I only get a few of them over many levels of progression. The only high level spells I could imagine my character taking is at least one of the level 4 auras. But even then I don't feel like I'm missing out...

I could go with one less ASI and do fighter 3 and rogue 5 as I feel uncanny dodge is a great layer of defense worthy of comparison to any other feat. This way I'll also get another sneak attack die. What do you all think about that?

I'm zeroing in on it now guys I can feel it.

1st 3 feats in order: elven accuracy, magic initiate (bard), and defensive duelist, not sure what for fourth...

Now level progression: paladin 9, rogue 4, paladin 12, fighter 3, rogue 5?

Thoughts?

I am all for rushing Paladin levels as level 9 is big for Vengeance Paladin (Haste) and level 11 too- Improved Divine Smites. Sadly if you were to multiclass from Paladin- it should be either after level 6 or after level 11 (IDS)/12 (ASI). They just have that huge bumps there.

So I would go either: Paladin 6, Rogue 4, Fighter 3 to get good of all worlds on level 13. However we heavly cut off caster progression and smite slots for Paladin.

The other one I would go Paladin 12, Rogue 4, Fighter 3. But you will probably never use that Fighter levels. You may seems that Rogue to work though.

[RingoBongo]

Sounds like a plan, Stan! It will suck to only have 6 slots for so long. But thats 6 out of the 10 total I will end up having. So, not terrible? Basically saving them for smites and the occasional hunter's mark or compelled duel.

And the material dice are kind of like low level spell slots anyways. Especially if taking the ones that do cool effects.

I always change my mind every time I look at the maneuvers... Now I currently like feinting, distracting, and riposte. Other contenders: trip and goading or menacing.

Or... Should I just take champion?

My intuition says bm. But I also know I am terrible at math and champion could be epic.