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Techonce
2007-09-25, 09:56 AM
In the game I am DMing, one of the charcters is playing a psion. THey are partway through the building they are exploring and the psion has just gained a level.

Question. Does he get the power points now, or when he rests. My gut tells me that it won't be until he rests, but I can't find anything directly saying that.

Thanks in advance!

Jason

Solo
2007-09-25, 09:59 AM
I think he gets them after he rests as well.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 10:02 AM
Do spontaneous spellcasters in your game get their new spell slots immediately upon gaining a level, or do they have to rest to gain access to them? Treat psionics the same way, for fairness sake.

In my game, I would rule that the character must rest to get the new points.

Techonce
2007-09-25, 10:28 AM
Thanks!

I will make him rest. And I don't have any spontanous casters other than Psion's

The PC's in Chapter 4 of the Age of Worms:

Half-Orc Pit-Fighter 8
Halfling Rogue 7 / Dungeon Delver 1
Halfling Psion (Kineticist) 8
Human Cleric of St. Cuthbert 3 / Psychic Warrior 4

The Psion is down to 1 power point, the player & PC don't understand the concept of saving so now he's pretty much useless. I was thinking of giving him his points so that they have a better chance of survival, but on the other hand the Pit Fighter might just use him as a porjectile weapon.

Person_Man
2007-09-25, 10:28 AM
There is no RAW rule for this that I'm aware of. In my game, players always level up between game sessions, mostly because it makes bookkeeping easier. Obviously your game session has ended, so I would just give him the Power Points. But really, it shouldn't be a huge deal. If you tell him that he has to rest before he gets the Power Points, then he's going to stop the gameplay in order to rest.


Thanks!
The PC's in Chapter 4 of the Age of Worms:

Half-Orc Pit-Fighter 8
Halfling Rogue 7 / Dungeon Delver 1
Halfling Psion (Kineticist) 8
Human Cleric of St. Cuthbert 3 / Psychic Warrior 4


What's a Pit-Fighter? I assume its just a Fighter.

Dungeon Delver? Multi-class Cleric/Psychic Warrior? Man, weak group you got going on. But hey, if they're all weak, it doesn't matter.

truemane
2007-09-25, 10:29 AM
Well sure, he has to rest. When he gains a level, his MAXIMUM Power Points goes up, not his current points.

So upon gaining a level, he now has the capacity to have more points, once he rests and regains them.

Techonce
2007-09-25, 10:30 AM
There is no RAW rule for this that I'm aware of. In my game, players always level up between game sessions, mostly because it makes bookkeeping easier. Obviously your game session has ended, so I would just give him the Power Points. But really, it shouldn't be a huge deal. If you tell him that he has to rest before he gets the Power Points, then he's going to stop the gameplay in order to rest.

Stopping is not an option. THe rest of the party (and the monsters in the building) won't allow it.

I strongly discourage constant stop/starts in a campaign. Usually the players learn to ration their spells/powers.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 10:33 AM
Stopping is not an option. THe rest of the party (and the monsters in the building) won't allow it.

I strongly discourage constant stop/starts in a campaign. Usually the players learn to ration their spells/powers.
If you don't allow (or the setting does not allow) resting, then you should not allow level-ups during the adventure. The inability to rest does cause a serious hardship for any characters that rely on spell slots/power points. What do they plan to do when their cleric runs out of heals?

Person_Man
2007-09-25, 10:40 AM
Stopping is not an option. THe rest of the party (and the monsters in the building) won't allow it.

I strongly discourage constant stop/starts in a campaign. Usually the players learn to ration their spells/powers.

That's generally a very good DMing practice, so bravo. But it can be taken too far. Once your party goes through 4ish encounters, you should let the casters and psionic PCs rest. You want the casters to ration, but you don't want them to be standing around doing nothing most of the time (I fire my crossbow for 1d6 damage. Man, this is boring). And usually (though certainly not always) there is no in-game reason the party couldn't leave the dungeon and come back the next day or have an arcane caster cast Rope Trick or a similar spell.

If you're really into marathon game-days for whatever reason, that's fine, but you may wish to let the players know before the campaign starts. That way they can be Dragonfire Adepts, Warlocks, and other "all day" classes that won't be seriously nerfed by your plot requirements.

Techonce
2007-09-25, 10:43 AM
I allow resting, but not in the middle of a dungeon or group of encounters where it doesnot make sense.

THey party entered a building to get to the root of a problem. THey are halfway through the building and have already had several encounters. If they stopped to rest now, then they would be discovered. If they left and then decided to come back, then things would be different and what they are looking for would either be gone or they buiding would be prepared for their return.

They can do it, but the consequences are worse than the advantage of moving on.

As for healing... Wands and plenty of them. Also several members have items that do some daily healing. Hair Shirt of suffering and healers belt for example.

I let them level up between encounters, since the influx of hp is usually helpful. I'd also allow the psion to use any new powers if he had the points. Pretty much he blasts away as if I only have 2-3 encounters per day, but his meta-game thinking didn't work.

The rest of the party is a little pissed at him now since he is pretty useless and he was blowing his spell points when they were not needed. He knew how badly hurt the other monster was, ye still maxxed out the power.

This is also the Psion who didn't have any ranks in Psicraft. He reasoning was that he didn't think he would come across any other Psions. I don't like this sort of metagaming/powergaming and it doesn't sit well in our group.

Solo
2007-09-25, 10:47 AM
I allow resting, but not in the middle of a dungeon or group of encounters where it doesnot make sense.

THey party entered a building to get to the root of a problem. THey are halfway through the building and have already had several encounters. If they stopped to rest now, then they would be discovered. If they left and then decided to come back, then things would be different and what they are looking for would either be gone or they buiding would be prepared for their return.

They can do it, but the consequences are worse than the advantage of moving on.

As for healing... Wands and plenty of them. Also several members have items that do some daily healing. Hair Shirt of suffering and healers belt for example.

I let them level up between encounters, since the influx of hp is usually helpful. I'd also allow the psion to use any new powers if he had the points. Pretty much he blasts away as if I only have 2-3 encounters per day, but his meta-game thinking didn't work.

The rest of the party is a little pissed at him now since he is pretty useless and he was blowing his spell points when they were not needed. He knew how badly hurt the other monster was, ye still maxxed out the power.

This is also the Psion who didn't have any ranks in Psicraft. He reasoning was that he didn't think he would come across any other Psions. I don't like this sort of metagaming/powergaming and it doesn't sit well in our group.

Metagaming yes, but powergaming?

If he's powergaming, he's failing at it miserably.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 10:49 AM
It sounds like you have issues beyond the scope of game mechanics. If the player of the Psion doesn't understand or is not willing to play according to the guidelines you've set up for the adventure, then he needs to rethink his participation. If you made it clear in advance that the PCs would not be able to rest, then blowing all his PPs early is entirely his fault and he deserves to suffer the consequences.

What you can't afford to do is set a precedent for him that you then have to deal with for the rest of the campaign. "He got his power points when he leveled, so I want my spell slots!"

Techonce
2007-09-25, 10:50 AM
That's generally a very good DMing practice, so bravo. But it can be taken too far. Once you party goes through 4ish encounters, you should let the casters and psionic PCs rest. You want the casters to ration, but you don't want them to be standing around doing nothing most of the time (I fire my crossbow for 1d6 damage. Man, this is boring). And usually (though certainly not always) there is no in-game reason the party couldn't leave the dungeon and come back the next day or have an arcane caster cast Rope Trick or a similar spell.

If you're really into marathon game-days for whatever reason, that's fine, but you may wish to let the players know before the campaign starts. That way they can be Dragonfire Adepts, Warlocks, and other "all day" classes that won't be seriously nerfed by your plot requirements.

While I don't want them standing around just waiting for the meat shield to finish up, blowing 7 power points when only 1 was needed (and I made it clear that only 1 was) was wasteful, and he does that alot.

My golden rule is that the only capital crime is stupidity. I don't like to kill PC's, but if they die because they made really dumb choices, then that's it. Heck a PC that makes a dumb choice, but is in character usually will not be fatal.

Chaos Bringer
2007-09-25, 11:13 AM
I'm playing in an EverQuest campaign right now, running off a mana system. Depending or the meditation ranks of us caster, it usually takes about 3 hours to completely restore mana. If the dungeon were in at the time has intelligent creatures, we tend to have and encounter during rest unless we take measures. We just find a good room and barricade the hell out of it then rest. Of course my DM takes action by setting traps right outside the door, but since theres always a fairly set number of bad guys in the dungeon, anything we kill early isnt there later. Resting in a dungeon can be done, as long as both sides think through all the consequences and take appropriate action.

Renx
2007-09-25, 11:18 AM
Mind flayers are good for taking out uppity psions.

//Edit1: But still, you should figure out some way of getting him at least some psi power back. Looks like the rest of your group is mostly non-spellpoint-reliant, so they're probably going to plow through a lot more encounters/day than the psion's power level will allow for, anyway. If you have wands for the cleric, you could retroactively give the psion some psi stones or sth.

Techonce
2007-09-25, 12:18 PM
Mind flayers are good for taking out uppity psions.

//Edit1: But still, you should figure out some way of getting him at least some psi power back. Looks like the rest of your group is mostly non-spellpoint-reliant, so they're probably going to plow through a lot more encounters/day than the psion's power level will allow for, anyway. If you have wands for the cleric, you could retroactively give the psion some psi stones or sth.

I guess that the difference is that the rest of the party buys items and amkes the proper preperations to allow extended strings of encounters. The Psion does not. He likes to blow his money on the single very useful item, and then gets screwed when it's not useful. I'm using canned adventures and I don't mess too much with them, so it's not like I am stacking things against him.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 12:40 PM
I guess that the difference is that the rest of the party buys items and amkes the proper preperations to allow extended strings of encounters. The Psion does not. He likes to blow his money on the single very useful item, and then gets screwed when it's not useful. I'm using canned adventures and I don't mess too much with them, so it's not like I am stacking things against him.
If a player does not adapt his character to the campaign/adventure setting, it usually means one of two things:


The DM did not make the theme of the adventure/campaign sufficiently clear so that the player(s) knew what to expect when generating and outfitting their characters.
The player has an idea of what he enjoys that is at odds with the goals of the DM and/or the other players, and is unwilling to compromise for the benefit of the party.


In either case, it's a group dynamic issue that needs to be addressed outside of the game itself. You can't solve it by hitting the troublesome PC with the rule-hammer. At best, that will make him upset, and at worst it will break up your group. Ask him privately if he really intends to play his character in a way that's detrimental to the party and, ultimately, to his own enjoyment of the game. Then give him a second chance in the game, possibly by dropping a psionic item as loot and/or letting him repurchase his equipment once the current adventure is over.

Techonce
2007-09-25, 12:51 PM
If a player does not adapt his character to the campaign/adventure setting, it usually means one of two things:


The DM did not make the theme of the adventure/campaign sufficiently clear so that the player(s) knew what to expect when generating and outfitting their characters.
The player has an idea of what he enjoys that is at odds with the goals of the DM and/or the other players, and is unwilling to compromise for the benefit of the party.



Well...

1. We have been gaming for a while now, and my DMing style has not changed.
2. He mostly enjoys getting out of the house! Thankfully the party has learned to to compensate for his characters. It does add a bit of humor and roleplaying to many situations, and he doesn't complain too much about not having too much to do. It is just a bit annoying, and well many of his characters tend to end up dead for one reason or another, so we see it in another version every few chapters.

Thanks for the input.

truemane
2007-09-25, 12:53 PM
Also, to be fair and consistent, if you allow HP to be raised upon level up, you should allow PP and Spell Slots to go up as well.

I would rule that levelling up gives you NO points until you rest and revover them. I.e. your HP maximum goes up and your PP maximum goes up, but you don't get more of either until you rest and revocer them.

If one goes up by the amount gained for the level, I would rule that they all go up.

But aside from that, I agree with the other posters that it seems you have a DM-PC issue that needs addressing before any rules are laid down.

Fighteer
2007-09-25, 01:11 PM
Well...

1. We have been gaming for a while now, and my DMing style has not changed.
2. He mostly enjoys getting out of the house! Thankfully the party has learned to to compensate for his characters. It does add a bit of humor and roleplaying to many situations, and he doesn't complain too much about not having too much to do. It is just a bit annoying, and well many of his characters tend to end up dead for one reason or another, so we see it in another version every few chapters.

Thanks for the input.
Your situation is reminiscent of several that I dealt with in my years of D&D. If you and your players are satisfied in a general sense with the situation, then I don't see any need to get too aggressive about modifying one player's behavior. The one thing you can't afford to do is treat him differently in your rulings.

Back to the original subject, if you determine that all expendable resources: hit points, spell slots, power points, etc., are granted instantly upon gaining a level, and that leveling up (or more specifically, gaining XP) occurs instantly upon the conclusion of an encounter, then that's a perfectly adequate house rule because it's fair to everyone.