Optimizing an arcane trickster: bladesong vs elven accuracy

[TheUser]

I am trying to build a new PC for an up and coming in house session. The character I plan to play doesn't need to conform to PHB +1 but it is still a rule I prefer to follow for the sake of it (I am not currently playing adventure league anymore since the new rules don't suit me).

Anyway, if you were to pretend that PHB+1 was important would you take an arcane trickster with elven accuracy or 2 levels of bladesinger for bladesong?

The playstyle plans to use sentinel early for lots of sneak attacks and then become more ranged focused with Haste in the later game.

If I take elven accuracy, I get Haste sooner since I won't be losing progression from multiclassing. If, however I decide to multiclass in Bladesinger to take Bladesong my concentration and AC get mega boosted (and I get Ritual Spells! Woooo!)

In the end I might just bite the bullet and go against my self imposed limitations but I'm interested what GitP would do.

P.S. it does make me understand a bit why PHB+1 is an observed rule in AL since this seems potent.

[Bannan_mantis]

I am trying to build a new PC for an up and coming in house session. The character I plan to play doesn't need to conform to PHB +1 but it is still a rule I prefer to follow for the sake of it (I am not currently playing adventure league anymore since the new rules don't suit me).

Anyway, if you were to pretend that PHB+1 was important would you take an arcane trickster with elven accuracy or 2 levels of bladesinger for bladesong?

The playstyle plans to use sentinel early for lots of sneak attacks and then become more ranged focused with Haste in the later game.

If I take elven accuracy, I get Haste sooner since I won't be losing progression from multiclassing. If, however I decide to multiclass in Bladesinger to take Bladesong my concentration and AC get mega boosted (and I get Ritual Spells! Woooo!)

In the end I might just bite the bullet and go against my self imposed limitations but I'm interested what GitP would do.

P.S. it does make me understand a bit why PHB+1 is an observed rule in AL since this seems potent.

I would do this mainly from what your party is looking for, Bladesinger is very good on arcane trickster and ups the melee abilities of it but the cost is elven accuracy (as you've said) and some of the options of rogue levels. This would be nicer to know what level you are but I'd say this, choose this more on what you wanna do.

Pure arcane trickster would be better for utility and elven accuracy works very well with familiars to make it so you always get some sneak attack damage off. In return I'd argue bladesinger is a better option for combat and also spell casting since it grants you arcane recovery for recovering spell slots faster and bladesong combined with cunning action makes you very hard to hit.

So overall if you want to be more of a utility based char I'd go with arcane trickster but if you want some abilities for extra spells and being harder to hit in combat bladesinger is the way to go. It's really your choice for what role you'd like to fill out more

[Skylivedk]

I'd disagree with the utility part. About the Bladesinger: IMO you get way more utility from ritual casting and expanded spell list. You lose a bit of defensive progression and skill consistency, but your toolbox grows. You also delay your spellprogression with quite a bit.

You might want to consider to do a cha based arcane trickster instead and get hexblade for weapon and armour weapon proficiencies, cantrips, AoA (best of combined with another full caster) and baleful curse which, especially with EA, really makes your sneak crits nastily frequent.

That way you you can also use a shield (allowing you more time in melee), get invocations (which are both good for combat and social) and if you go three levels deep, mirror image on short rest.

All levels of hexblade from 1-5 can offer you goodies. Chain and Tome are both utility bags. If you want extra attack, pact is there as well and then you suddenly can get haste on a short rest (late though)... Or another, very tanky version: hexblade (between 1 and 3), Shadow/DS Sorcerer (3-6), arcane trickster/swashbuckler X.

Starting as sorc gives you con saves. Evasion makes Dex saves less important. WIS saves can either be gotten by feat or levels.

Your short rest slots are either shield, absorb elements, mirror image, spell points or invisibility.
AoA is good your empty spell slot levels and very good with Uncanny Dodge.

You are SAD (so lost ASIs are mitigated by free stats necessary) and can quicken spells/cantrips for extra attacks when needed. You can start as halfling, vHuman (picking up darkvision from hexblade or Shadow Sorcerer), gnome, aasimar, tiefling or halfelf. Subtle and twin are both good metamagic choices.

It's a build I've looked at due to the sheer number of options you have every round. I think it'd be super fun.

[Corran]

Too many unknowns. How well your party will have you covered (through tanking and battlefield control) will determine how useful a boost to AC and concentration from bladesinging would be. Using haste at later levels probably means that you would need a boost at least for concentration, so doesn't bladesinging in a way mean that it spares you a feat? I would say it does. Picking up sentinel at early levels (when your sneak attack and when your defenses, which are what would make sentinel being used more reliably, are not great; and when at the same time you are planning to evolve that character into a ranged dpr) seems a bit wasteful to me. I also find elven accuracy very overrated, but assuming the DM lets you pull of having advantage on every attack once you get haste (by not targeting your familiar much and by going easy on how difficult it would be to hide using your cunning action feature), then maybe elven accuracy is very much worth it on a rogue has two chances at sneak attack per round and reliable sources of advantage. If this is the case, I would go with elven accuracy and I would aim for pure rogue, at the very least till level 13 which is when you get access to haste (if I am not mistaken), probably also doing away with sentinel and picking something else that would be good for ranged combat, or that would boost my concentration for when I finally get access to haste (cause losing concentration to haste sucks). The two levels of bladesinger certainly help a lot in that last point, bby increasing all of AC, concentration and movement, though they are not cheap, as they cost two levels of investment, which by itself is not that bad since the loss of 2 rogue levels after you get haste is not that harmful, though the delay in boosting your defenses once you get haste (it also eats into your action economy, but only just a bit, that is just a hide attempt in the first round), might be what it will hurt you, so I would probably want to have taken care of that issue till then, probably with a feat like resilient (most likely taken at level 12, that is one level before you finally get haste).

tl;dr
If the party can protect me from being targeted often and I can have a reliable (in actual play) source of advantage, I would go with elven accuracy. If no to both of the above, I would go with bladesinger. For everything that falls in between it's hard to say, use your judgement to see to which of these two extreme cases you are closer and pick accordingly.

[TheUser]

I don't really know what the team composition will be yet. I think I will just cave and go for both lol

[sithlordnergal]

So, as an AL player who is stuck in the PHB+1 rule, I'd go with Elven Accuracy over Bladesinger. Bladesinger is nice, but you can get a lot more from Xanathar's. If I were to limit myself to Sword Coast, I'd only do it for Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, which make Bladesinger a bit weaker since you can't use Extra Attack with it.

Meanwhile, grabbing Elven Accuracy gives you access to Xanathar spells like Shadow Blade, which is potent in a Rogue's hand. And you can consistently gain advantage on attack rolls by hiding then attacking, which gives you more use of Elven Accuracy.

[RogueJK]

If I were to limit myself to Sword Coast, I'd only do it for Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade, which make Bladesinger a bit weaker since you can't use Extra Attack with it.

A 2-5 level Bladesinger dip with just SCAG would still be useful for an Arcane Trickster Rogue, granting them Booming Blade, Bladesong, Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, some extra cantrips and 1st level spells known, potentially 2nd or 3rd level spells known (well before the Arcane Trickster could get 2nd/3rd level spells on their own), and some higher level spell slots.

They wouldn't be going all the way to Bladesinger6 to get Extra Attack anyway.

That would allow them to have Bladesong and Booming Blade added to their Rapier+Sneak Attack+Disengage routine, for greater mobility, higher AC, better concentration, and better damage. And it would also get them earlier and wider access to 2nd and 3rd level spells, if they went 3/4/5 levels into Bladesinger.

Piling Shadow Blade on top of Booming Blade is even better, but it's sadly not an option if you're sticking with just PHB+SCAG.

[TheUser]

A 2-5 level Bladesinger dip with just SCAG would still be useful for an Arcane Trickster Rogue, granting them Booming Blade, Bladesong, Ritual Casting, Arcane Recovery, some extra cantrips and 1st level spells known, potentially 2nd or 3rd level spells known (well before the Arcane Trickster could get 2nd/3rd level spells on their own), and some higher level spell slots.

They wouldn't be going all the way to Bladesinger6 to get Extra Attack anyway.

That would allow them to have Bladesong and Booming Blade added to their Rapier+Sneak Attack+Disengage routine, for greater mobility, higher AC, better concentration, and better damage. And it would also get them earlier and wider access to 2nd and 3rd level spells, if they went 3/4/5 levels into Bladesinger.

Piling Shadow Blade on top of Booming Blade is even better, but it's sadly not an option if you're sticking with just PHB+SCAG.

EDIT: Thanks for all the feedback guys. Some of this is just new from me brainstorming based on the responses I've recieved.

If the build were to mature from the beginning up to 20 it would be Arcane Trickster 18/Bladesinger 2

Bladesong + no longer able to grant advantage to attackers while conscious + the blur spell and uncanny dodge...

The real key would be -when- I take the 2 in bladesinger, which would probably be at levels 6 and 7 (5 of Rogue first). This would allow me to have sentinel, shield, uncanny dodge, and absorb elements instead of extra expertise and Evasion.


Or alternatively Arcane Trickster 7 / Bladesinger 13 to get both evasion and simulacrum (simulacrum's with evasion stay alive -much- longer and it's a 2 attack simulacrum with 4d6 sneak attack dice). But this would purely be as a level 20 jenk build (making it an unlikely candidate).

The build that incorporates 13 Bladesinger can aquire shadowblade btw; PHB + 1 doesn't prohibit copying spells from scrolls/other players (WotC favoring Wizards...who knew?)

More than likely a 2 level Bladesinger dip though....

[RogueJK]

The real key would be -when- I take the 2 in bladesinger, which would probably be at levels 6 and 7 (5 of Rogue first). This would allow me to have sentinel, shield, uncanny dodge, and absorb elements instead of extra expertise and Evasion

It's not AL, but I'm playing an Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger right now, going Rogue2 -> Rogue2/Wizard1 -> Rogue3/Wizard1 -> Rogue3/Wizard4. (I'm still debating whether to go straight Rogue from there and just stick to 4 levels of Bladesinger, or take Wizard up one more level for 3rd level spells before continuing with Rogue progression.)

Shield and Absorb Elements certainly come in handy, since they don't yet have Uncanny Dodge or Evasion. Even once they get Evasion, it will still allow them to take quarter damage on a failed save, and they won't be using 1st level spell slots on reaction spells as much. In addition, Shadow Blade's increased damage over a standard Rapier (+1d8, or +2d8 when upcast into a 3rd level slot) offsets the 2d6 loss in Sneak Attack dice compared to a straight Rogue7. Not to mentioned the sweet auto-Advantage in dim light and darkness. Booming Blade adds even more damage.

But that's with rolled stats, so I started with an 18 DEX and 16 INT, and could afford to delay my first ASI to 7th Level. If you're doing Point Buy or Standard Array, you might want to push for Rogue4 first, to get that initial ASI ASAP, and only then dip 2+ levels into Bladesinger.

[McSkrag]

Like to point out that in AL wizards can add spells to their spellbook from source outside the PHB +1.

So an AL Bladesinger wizard can add XGtE spells from scrolls, or other spellbooks.

[Rukelnikov]

I'd go Bladesinger to get the damage cantrips, combat wise, you only need to hit once per turn.

EA makes it more likely to happen, BB and GFB make it more meaningful.

I'm on the subway rite now, so I can't really crunch the numbers, but I'm fairly certain that against lvl appropriate enemies, the cantrips add more DPR, even assuming advantage on every attack

[djreynolds]

You get a spell book.

Bladesong lasts for a minute.

You can always grab elven accuracy later.

[Arial Black]

I made a Rog (swashbuckler) 3/Wiz (bladesinger)2 for a new campaign starting at 5th level. When I level up my intention is to go to Rog 4 and take Elven Accuracy (no PHB+1 for us!).

My Dex is 20, mage armour takes my AC to 18. Bladesong (and my Int giving a +3 modifier) makes that 21.

In our very first battle we were fighting some bugbears in a forested area and the DM ruled that all targets of ranged attacks get a +2 AC bonus from cover, making my AC 23. The bugbears shot arrows at me, mostly missing. Then one of the attacks hit AC 23, so I cast shield as a reaction, making my AC 28.

I felt very pleased with myself. I don't have many hit points, and my 'not dying' plan of high AC was working.

But this had an unforeseen side effect, It turns out that my high AC upset my DM to such an extent that he actually got visibly angry. He's a smiley kinda guy, and I've never seen him angry before. I felt bad for upsetting him. The other players are not optimisers, and although their PCs as designed could be awesome on the battlefield-our Clr 5 could rock with each round hitting with spiritual weapon, attacking in melee, and projecting a 30ft diameter aura which dissolves enemies but not friends (spirit guardians)-they don't do their awesome stuff, leaving my PC sticking out like a sore thumb and negatively affecting their enjoyment of the game. I'm probably going to have to change characters. I'm thinking of playing a support-type, like a God-Druid, to let them dominate play.

[greenstone]

The playstyle plans to use sentinel early for lots of sneak attacks and then become more ranged focused with Haste in the later game.

If I take elven accuracy, I get Haste sooner since I won't be losing progression from multiclassing. If, however I decide to multiclass in Bladesinger to take Bladesong my concentration and AC get mega boosted (and I get Ritual Spells! Woooo!)

I'd go for a single class and get haste as quickly as you can.

Bladesinging is not a good match if you are going to be an archer. You can't use it with with bows or big crossbows so you going to be standing really close and plinking away with a hand crossbow or darts, close enough where you may as well be using melee.

If you plan to be a ranged spellcaster then increasing your ability score is really important, so multiclassing will hurt you.

Also note that the Ritual Casting feature only applies to your Wizard spells, not your Rogue spells.

[Skylivedk]

SNIP.

I'm probably going to have to change characters. I'm thinking of playing a support-type, like a God-Druid, to let them dominate play.

Talk with your table first. There's other ways to target high ac casters and you shouldn't have to change your character to avoid making the DM angry. Red flag in my book.

[Arial Black]

Talk with your table first. There's other ways to target high ac casters and you shouldn't have to change your character to avoid making the DM angry. Red flag in my book.

Oh, this conversation took place at the start of the second session, during which my attempts to explain those things just made him more upset. When I told him about the other ways to threaten my PC he said that he was running a pre-written module as is and the baddies only had the attacks that the module says they did and they all use weapons to attack AC. I can see his point of view. Whether it makes sense to you or me isn't really the issue; the issue is that he and the other players genuinely felt that my PC was OP, unfair, a Mary-Sue, and they weren't having fun because of it.

Yeah, I love my PC, but there are plenty of other PCs in my head that I would also love to play, and I care about everyone having a good time more than I care about being right, winning an argument, or playing that particular PC in that campaign.

[RSP]

One other option: instead of Bladesinger (and SCAG as your +1), go War Mage, which will allow you to use Elven Accuracy and other spells from XGtE. War Mage’s level 2 ability is a fine replacement to Bladesinger’s level 2, in some ways better, in other ways worse; but on the whole should be similar to what you were getting from the BS dip, while allowing you to focus on the Rogue necessities (like using ASIs to up Dex and then Con as opposed to Int).

[Skylivedk]

Oh, this conversation took place at the start of the second session, during which my attempts to explain those things just made him more upset. When I told him about the other ways to threaten my PC he said that he was running a pre-written module as is and the baddies only had the attacks that the module says they did and they all use weapons to attack AC. I can see his point of view. Whether it makes sense to you or me isn't really the issue; the issue is that he and the other players genuinely felt that my PC was OP, unfair, a Mary-Sue, and they weren't having fun because of it.

Yeah, I love my PC, but there are plenty of other PCs in my head that I would also love to play, and I care about everyone having a good time more than I care about being right, winning an argument, or playing that particular PC in that campaign.

I love your attitude, not his. Did he grapple you? Shove? Ignore? AoE? Challenge your character's morals? It's one session. Nobody ought to react that way after that little data.

[TheUser]

One other option: instead of Bladesinger (and SCAG as your +1), go War Mage, which will allow you to use Elven Accuracy and other spells from XGtE. War Mage’s level 2 ability is a fine replacement to Bladesinger’s level 2, in some ways better, in other ways worse; but on the whole should be similar to what you were getting from the BS dip, while allowing you to focus on the Rogue necessities (like using ASIs to up Dex and then Con as opposed to Int).

Despite it causing me to have a bit of reaction glut it -might- be worth it for the SAVES....

Hmm I might actually consider it.

[Citan]

I am trying to build a new PC for an up and coming in house session. The character I plan to play doesn't need to conform to PHB +1 but it is still a rule I prefer to follow for the sake of it (I am not currently playing adventure league anymore since the new rules don't suit me).

Anyway, if you were to pretend that PHB+1 was important would you take an arcane trickster with elven accuracy or 2 levels of bladesinger for bladesong?

The playstyle plans to use sentinel early for lots of sneak attacks and then become more ranged focused with Haste in the later game.

If I take elven accuracy, I get Haste sooner since I won't be losing progression from multiclassing. If, however I decide to multiclass in Bladesinger to take Bladesong my concentration and AC get mega boosted (and I get Ritual Spells! Woooo!)

In the end I might just bite the bullet and go against my self imposed limitations but I'm interested what GitP would do.

P.S. it does make me understand a bit why PHB+1 is an observed rule in AL since this seems potent.
Hi!

Coming a bit late into the discussion. :)
So, honestly, I'd go Bladesing dip.

Not that I would find Elven Accuracy not good. It's great. Much more than most people give credit for it honestly.
BUT, the BIG but... You wanna play a melee character.
You wanna play a "all I'll get most of my life is ONE weapon attack on Attack" character.

Elven Accuracy is great for when...
- you "simply want to hit whatever comes across your way".
- you "have a big load behind your attack".
First benefit is always good, but realistically you won't face (at least often) enemies making the triple advantage worth until char level 8-9 at the very least, and possibly later.
Second benefit comes into play imo only after you can get at least 30 damage on average behind any attack, which is pretty late game whether you use Booming Blade or not.

Moreover, to enable triple advantage you need to get advantage already. If you plan on tagging along a Wolf Barbarian, a regular Barbarian, an Open Hand Monk or a Shield Fighter, all is good, you can count on them setting creatures prone.
As a "solo set-up"? It means you have to dedicate yourself to use your regular Attack on Shove, and dual-wield to use Sneak Attack on bonus action weapon attack. Repeat every round. Or instead Grapple it and pick Grappler feat so you can keep advantage round after round, but that also means you simply cannot do anything worth on first turn, and it kinda defeats the purpose of Sentinel too (already speed 0).

Of course, you can also use spells to set up advantage (Blindness, Hold Person, Web, etc). But you probably won't be able to use them reliably until you get Magical Ambush, and even then it may not always work, considering those spells don't have such a big range and you need to be hidden when casting (and hiding places may be difficult to find or create).

Meanwhile, Bladesong...
- increases your speed (good to help spare bonus action Dashes and/or better position yourself).
- increases your AC (meaning less uses of Shield or Uncanny Dodge, so more often keeping reaction open for potential OA).
- increases your concentration (Shadow Blade, Invisibility, Haste later maybe).
- boosts your total known spells per up to ~16 provided you dip early (learn AT spells, write them, swap on level up) before even taking lootable spells into account.
- gives an appreciated slot boosts early.
All that for mere requirement of wielding no heavier than light armor (which you wouldn't do anyways) and holding only one-handed weapon (you are not proficient in shield and two-handed weapons are STR anyways).

-> Elven Accuracy is worth only if you build around, and imo, for a Rogue chassis, it's not worth its salt. However, if you are confident party can help you get advantage, then it is worth taking at level 8 minimum.
-> Bladesong, for a mere requirement of 13 INT (an AT should have at least 14 anyways), brings so much to the table it cannot compare, even taking into account the Rogue features delay.

EDIT: Catching up with thread...



Pure arcane trickster would be better for utility and elven accuracy works very well with familiars to make it so you always get some sneak attack damage off.
Honestly I wouldn't consider familiars as a reliable source of advantage. They are just far too easy to kill and it takes a long time to replace (even if you use an actual slot on it). It works at low level and is very satisfying for that, but on higher level, once you start being an actual threat due to high damage, between AOE, archers, casters, that all come to realize that this creature helps you hit their friends, it won't last.



Meanwhile, grabbing Elven Accuracy gives you access to Xanathar spells like Shadow Blade, which is potent in a Rogue's hand. And you can consistently gain advantage on attack rolls by hiding then attacking, which gives you more use of Elven Accuracy.
You make a good point about access to Shadow Blade which is in itself a pretty decent boost to damage for its cost.
Honest question though: how easy in your experience (or projections ^^) would it be to get the built-in advantage from it? Darkness is not common at all (and would not benefit Rogue himself anyways unless dip into Warlock or Shadow Sorcerer), and dim light is not that frequent either, at least ime...



The real key would be -when- I take the 2 in bladesinger, which would probably be at levels 6 and 7 (5 of Rogue first). This would allow me to have sentinel, shield, uncanny dodge, and absorb elements instead of extra expertise and Evasion.

I'd honestly pick it earlier, but it of course depends of your actual analysis of your campaign.
Reasoning behind picking it up ASAP is following...
1. two (another slot + Arcane Recovery) more Shield per day can really make a difference early, even if it delays Uncanny Dodge by another level.
2. More importantly, Bladesong being a short-rest ability, twice per short rest, means you can count on a +2 or+3 AC (you did at least get 14 INT, right?) for possibly all encounters on most days. This means many less resources spent on Shield, and many attacks simply missing that would have otherwise made you use Uncanny Dodge as a reaction once you get it.
In other words, and in short, I think it's really the best in resource management in the long run.


Finally as far as 2/18 or 7/13 (or even more classic 13/7)... Seriously, don't twist your brain on that. Get 2nd level of Bladesinger & Rogue 7 ASAP (since those are features you -rightly so- want anyways). Once you're there you can see how your taste and objectives evolved and pick accordingly. :)

[Skylivedk]

Hi!

Coming a bit late into the discussion. :)
So, honestly, I'd go Bladesing dip.


Finally as far as 2/18 or 7/13 (or even more classic 13/7)... Seriously, don't twist your brain on that. Get 2nd level of Bladesinger & Rogue 7 ASAP (since those are features you -rightly so- want anyways). Once you're there you can see how your taste and objectives evolved and pick accordingly. :)

I think I read before you edited; at least I can see the quote has a different text than I saw a few minutes ago (weird experience).

Anyway; with you all the way on Bladesong and Wiz levels being good sooner rather than later. I'm not so sure about triple advantage not being worth it though. It depends on the party. In the one group where I will get Elven Accuracy, the group is very very good at helping me do just that (straight hexblade). I also try to make it easy for them. So really talk to your group. On the upside, crits and sneak attack are maybe even more enamoured than crits and smite.

Maybe even do the math on one of my last favourite class: Champion fighter. For the double cheese dip, you lose five levels of rogue, maybe get con saves, all proficiencies, great crit and action surge for a pseudo haste.

[RSP]

Despite it causing me to have a bit of reaction glut it -might- be worth it for the SAVES....

Hmm I might actually consider it.

True but I always view that as 1st option is defense: if your Reaction can save you from an effect or damage, that’s the way to go. If not, then yeah, get your Extra Attack and SA if able.

Similar to a BM fighter with Riposte and Defensive Duelist: stay alive first, added attack if able.

Obviously, certain situations may dictate deviating from this but it’s a good rule of thumb to prioritize limited resources.