Strength of the grave question.

[Aussiehams]

G'day all.
Do any experienced Shadow Sorcerer's have much experience with the strength of the grave feature? From a quick look the DC seems too high. I'm not sure though as we haven't played mid levels yet.
I think that if I had a class feature that rarely worked I would find it very frustrating.

Cheers.

[Mercurias]

Starting at 1st level, when damage reduces you to 0 hit points, you can make a Charisma saving throw (DC 5 + damage taken). On a success you instead drop to 1 hit point. You can't use this feature if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by radiant damage or by a critical hit.

It really depends on the hit that did you in. If you ate 30 damage to the face then you're dogmeat no matter what, but if your health was low and you got hit for 4-5 damage then the DC is pretty easy. Considering how big a boost you get from Eyes of the Dark at the exact same level, I think it's about where it needs to be for a level 1 feature.

[Aussiehams]

I guess the question is more specifically, how often do you get hit by 15+ damage in mis teir play. DC 20+ is getting pretty serious.

[Skylivedk]

Considering how good a weapon a lot of hits are against casters due to concentration, I think it's a fairly good ability. The big hits should be soaked by mirror image, or even better, your tank.

[Contrast]

Considering how big a boost you get from Eyes of the Dark at the exact same level, I think it's about where it needs to be for a level 1 feature.

This is your answer. That said, the feature is at its best in the first couple of levels where is gives you a very good chance of just shrugging off things that would glib a normal sorc. Later on its a ribbon ability that you shouldn't plan on relying on but is a nice surprise when it procs. In the mean time you've also got an extra spell known in the form of a magical darkness that only you can see through and improved darkvision still. Seems a decent deal to me.

[Corran]

Starting at 1st level, when damage reduces you to 0 hit points, you can make a Charisma saving throw (DC 5 + damage taken). On a success you instead drop to 1 hit point. You can't use this feature if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by radiant damage or by a critical hit.

They made it a charisma save? Asking because I want to be sure (don't have the book and can't get to it right now).


G'day all.
Do any experienced Shadow Sorcerer's have much experience with the strength of the grave feature? From a quick look the DC seems too high. I'm not sure though as we haven't played mid levels yet.
I think that if I had a class feature that rarely worked I would find it very frustrating.

Cheers.
Eh, a sorcerer is not meant to be played in he front lines, so the feature is anyway situational. I also think that the majority of monsters don't have great ranged attacks anyway (could be wrong about that, but that's my impression about 5e), so that makes up for it a bit. So, a situational ability due to positioning, which will work well enough against most mooks you would expect, I think it's fine. As the other people said so far, it's just an additional benefit and not a main one, and I suspect it was put in there just to enhance a bit the dark pseudo-undeath theme, and was not intended to play as a significant boost to the subclass. That said, personally, I wouldn't mind reducing the DC to just damage dealt, if for nothing else just to see if that would be a decision I would regret. But either way, it is just too much of a situational ability to really count on, even if we improved it by lowering the DC.

[Contrast]

They made it a charisma save? Asking because I want to be sure (don't have the book and can't get to it right now).

Yes its a Cha saving throw.

[Aussiehams]

To clarify, I'm more thinking as a Paladin multiclass so I would be the tank and taking the big hits. I would get to add my Charisma twice for my save which makes it much better, but even a +12 or so is looking shaky for taking a big hit.

[DeTess]

To clarify, I'm more thinking as a Paladin multiclass so I would be the tank and taking the big hits. I would get to add my Charisma twice for my save which makes it much better, but even a +12 or so is looking shaky for taking a big hit.

I my experience even at mid tiers most hits aren't going to be for massive damage, but more in the 15-25 range. There are creatures with massive attacks, like a dragon's breath, but those are often things that happen to open the fight, followed by more reasonable attacks with claws and bites and the like. For example, a gold dragon has 66 average damage on it's breath, but less than 20 on everything else.

[Corran]

Yes its a Cha saving throw.
Oh man, that's cool. It does not make much sense (since I think constitution is more suited to this ability), but it helps with what the op is thinking.


To clarify, I'm more thinking as a Paladin multiclass so I would be the tank and taking the big hits. I would get to add my Charisma twice for my save which makes it much better, but even a +12 or so is looking shaky for taking a big hit.
Yeah, that would work great. Keep in mind that this +12 will probably eventually cap at sth like +16 at the very high levels. And now you don't need to spend a feat in resilient to make this work at its fullest. Now, that's a great ability for a martial. Yeah, it wont be any reliable at all when you are going against heavy hitters like giants (unless they roll badly?), for them you probably want death ward still, but there are plenty of enemies against which it will work very well. It's like a good anti-horde defense (like shield, only this one will not expend slots -though it does lock you into a sorc origin, so that's still a cost and a heavy one I should say- and can be used on top of shield for whatever manages to go through, though I am guessing that this will be mostly crits, so probably a lot more redundancy than synergy between those two). More reliable or less reliable though, again, it's something good for a martial to have. I am not sure if it would be enough of a reason to tempt me to go with the shadow origin (which I find a bit weak personally), but if I went with that origin, then this is the feature I think I would enjoy the most.

[JackPhoenix]

Oh man, that's cool. It does not make much sense (since I think constitution is more suited to this ability), but it helps with what the op is thinking.

Yeah, it's literally zombies' Undying Fortitude, except on Cha instead of Con.

[Vogie]

I guess the question is more specifically, how often do you get hit by 15+ damage in mis teir play. DC 20+ is getting pretty serious.

That just allows the ability to be incredibly useful at low levels, and progressively less useful as you get higher up in levels

[Man_Over_Game]

Let's not forget that Sorcerers are proficient in Charisma saving throws. You're talking about a +5 - +11 to your saving throw. At max level, a 20 DC is a 50/50 chance.

Also, don't forget about this little tidbit: "After the saving throw succeeds you can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest. " So you fall after failing your DC from being hit by the boss, your healer uses Healing Word to pop you back up, a douchey minion goes to poke you to knock you back down and you easily succeed.

[Corran]

Also, don't forget about this little tidbit: "After the saving throw succeeds you can't use this feature again until you finish a long rest. "
Ahhh….. shame. Evil designers, they don't let us have op things.

[Corpsecandle717]

Oh man, that's cool. It does not make much sense (since I think constitution is more suited to this ability), but it helps with what the op is thinking.



Feels like a throwback to previous editions where a lot of undead used CHA in place of CON for their abilities (because undead used to all have 0 CON).

It also makes a kinda sense for a sorc.

Instead of "ugh, my body shrugged off that last little bit of damage and I'm not dead," it's a "F*** YOU DEATH! You cant have me yet!" Feels very inline lol.

[Man_Over_Game]

Feels like a throwback to previous editions where a lot of undead used CHA in place of CON for their abilities (because undead used to all have 0 CON).

It also makes a kinda sense for a sorc.

Instead of "ugh, my body shrugged off that last little bit of damage and I'm not dead," it's a "F*** YOU DEATH! You cant have me yet!" Feels very inline lol.

Eh, I feel that it's a balance decision. The Shadow Sorcerer gets nothing for the first two levels except that one ability. They could have made it towards the survival attribute (Constitution), but that would mean that the Sorcerer's primary stat is irrelevant to the build. In fact, a Cavalier would have gotten more stacking Constitution out of your level 1 feature than you have. It'd make it feel like a real dud right out of the gate, when Divine Soul gets healing spells and the Storm Sorcerer is capable of flight every turn.

It's an attempt to make the Shadow Sorcerer feel rewarding at level 1. It's still not enough with just that and Darkvision, but the super Darkness at level 3 makes up for it.

[Corpsecandle717]

Eh, I feel that it's a balance decision. The Shadow Sorcerer gets nothing for the first two levels except that one ability. They could have made it towards the survival attribute (Constitution), but that would mean that the Sorcerer's primary stat is irrelevant to the build. In fact, a Cavalier would have gotten more stacking Constitution out of your level 1 feature than you have. It'd make it feel like a real dud right out of the gate, when Divine Soul gets healing spells and the Storm Sorcerer is capable of flight every turn.

It's an attempt to make the Shadow Sorcerer feel rewarding at level 1. It's still not enough with just that and Darkvision, but the super Darkness at level 3 makes up for it.

Oh, of course it was a balance decision. My post was just about making the mechanic more palatable to Corran.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Ahhh….. shame. Evil designers, they don't let us have op things.

I don't know, I rather like to think of it as a plus, in that failures don't count as using up your power. You can keep trying (provided you don't die) until you succeed.

[Tanarii]

Starting at 1st level, when damage reduces you to 0 hit points, you can make a Charisma saving throw (DC 5 + damage taken). On a success you instead drop to 1 hit point. You can't use this feature if you are reduced to 0 Hit Points by radiant damage or by a critical hit.
Huh. For some reason I though the DC was 5+excess damage taken. In other words if you take a 15 pt hit with 10 HPs left, DC 10 instead of DC 20. Been making this more powerful that it should be.