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Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-25, 11:04 AM
I've been checking the ToB's PrC's, and I've been disappointed by master of the nine (MoT9 for short). In theory, the MoT9's are the ultimate walkers of the sublime way, but in practice, they are a pretty bad class. I honestly don't imagine any swordsage spending precious feats on things as god-awful as expertise. So, I've been thinking of reworking it, and, having decided on a way to do so, I would like to know your thoughts, and maybe suggestions:


Master Of The Nine

Prestige Class, 5 levels

Requirements: 2 level 6 maneuvers, one level 7 maneuver (MoT9 should, in my opinion, be a lately accessed PrC. I mean, true mastery ain't obtained from nowhere, you know.). Knowledge of at least one maneuver from 5 schools (instant access for most swordsages, more or less easily accessed by crusaders or warblades. At least you don't have to spend muchas feats on dodge and blindfighting).


BAB progression: +1/level (This way, Warblades and Crusaders don't lose BAB, and Swordsages get a fourth, albeit crappy attack. I'm really tired of juggling PrC levels, and full BAB remedies this. Of course, this is subject to change).

Saves: Will and Fort good, Reflex bad (Pure/perfect/whateva of mind and body is an ideal of most martial artists, and that is neatly summed up by Will and Fort. Plus, all round strong saves would be extra cheesy).

Maneuvers known/readied: No new maneuvers known, +1 maneuver readied at 1, 3, 5.

Skills: Same as Swordsage, plus knowledge (religion). Will fill it out in detail later.

Special features: Master of the Discipline (Ex or Sp, depends on discipline): A Master of the nine has knowledge of maneuvers that escape the grasp of the common martial adept. This maneuvers can only be refreshed by expending a full round action to recover one of them. This action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Each level, except level 5, A Master of the Nine can choose a single maneuver from the following:


Debilitating Strike: (Strike, 60 ft. range, requires standard action, effect is debilitating ki attack)
By concentrating his Ki, a master of the nine can launch a concentrated ball of power at an oponent, making him weaker to his attacks. The opponent must succeed against a ranged touch attack or have a resistance weakened or removed. This strike reduces an elemental immunity (such as immunity against fire) to resistance 20, and eliminates resistance. Only one resistance might be affected per attack. The order of elimination is as follows: Fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic. Any other elemental resistance will be removed in alphabetical order. The character is Exhausted after the execution of this maneuver. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Comments: Many hypothesis have been made about a way to make Desert wind more effective. This maneuver makes sure you don't have to worry about it, though it makes sure you will need a cleric, more or less, since fighting while Exhausted is bad karma. This maneuver might invoke the Cheese god, but it allows desert wind to be a viable choice.

Devastating Counter: (Counter, you range, requires immediate action, effect is poweful counter)
Focusing her energies on deflecting an enemy's blows, a MoT9 can turn around an enemy's attack with great strength. If a melee attack is made against you, make an attack roll. If you hit, the attack is considered an automatic critical hit with 3X multiplier. However, it is not a critical hit, and thus not hindered by immunity to them. The attack that triggered the countered is canceled (if it was part of a full attack, the other attacks are canceled too). This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.
Comments: In my opinion, what Tornado throw should have been from the beginning, since it's a pathetic excuse of a level 9 maneuver. This one is not only more in the spirit of setting sun, but it is powerful enough.


9 Shadow clone Terminating attack: (strike, requires full attack action, range is chosen creature/8 chosen squares, effect is powerful clone multihitter)
Shadows are intouchable, unreachable, and lethal. This is epitomized in this maneuver, which manipulates shadow for creating a more powerful attack. Choose 8 squares that surround the target creature you are adjacent to (if you are using a reach weapon, choose from a range equal to the weapon's reach) or less. Shadowy versions of you are generated at chosen squares, and mimic your actions. Make an attack roll. The other shadows mimic the effects of said roll, including extra damage die. If you miss, all the shadows' attacks miss too. The attacked foe can make a will save against a DC of (19 + your wis modifier) to disbelieve the shadows' attack and take 75% of their damage (rounding up). Your attack does full damage, however. As the shadows converge on you after your attack, you gain concealment (20% miss chance) against all attacks until the beginning of your next turn. This maneuver is a supernatural ability
Comments: Possibly better or worse than most other big attack maneuvers, this one depends on your foe's location, and on your roll result. If it hits, it's likely better than even time stands still, particularly if you critical. If it misses, it's the biggest loss you can think of, and a big setback, though the 20% concealment helps make the maneuver better.


Berserking Tiger Slash: (Strike, chosen creature range, requires full round action, effect is demented assault)
You enter a state of horrific animal fury. Setting all thoughts of defense aside, you attack your enemy with mighty and brutal strikes. Make an attack roll. If you succeed, your opponent must make a Reflex save vs. DC (15 + your DEX modifier) to avoid being hit again with a second blow that would surely kill it, a Fortitude save vs. DC (15 + your STR modifier) to avoid dieing from the shock of your potent attack, and a Will save vs. DC (15 + your WIS modifier) to shrug off the horrific visage you present. Creatures without a CON score are immune to the Fortitude save. Creatures without INT are immune to the effects of the Will save. No protection exists from the effects of the Reflex save, however. Even if the target creature successfully saves against all three saves, she still takes 10d6 damage. You are considered flat footed until the beginning of your next turn. This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.
Comment: Representing the furious side of Tiger claw, this manauver is more or less a pretty surefire way of killing a foe, 'cept maybe an outsider or Dragon.

Favored Cut: (Strike, requires a standard action, chosen creature, effect is divinely favored attack)
A MoT9 is a favored soul, who's destined to leave a mark. By calling on his devotion to his ideals, a Mot9 can both protect himself and inflict heavy damage to his foes. Make an attack roll. If your attack hits, you become wreathed in protective and gain a defensive aura. Choose a damage type (piercing, bludgeoning, slashing). You gain DR 30/your exactly opposite alignment (For example, a NG MoT9's opposite alignment is NE. If you are True Neutral, choose an alignment from LG, LE, CG, CE. That alignment becomes the one able to ignore the DR) + the damage type of your choice. This attack also deals an extra 12d6 damage. This maneuver is a supernatural ability
Comments: Likely extra cheesy, since it's very unlikely your opponents have the keys to overcoming the DR, which are the alignment and damage type. This more or less ensures you prolong your life for an extra turn.


Supreme Weapon Bond: (strike, requires full attack action, chosen creature, effect is perfectly powerful attack)
A MoT9 is one with his weapon/s of choice, a conduit for sheer weapon mastery. By focusing, she can attack with devastating results. Make a full attack. Every damage roll is maximized and multiplied by 1.5. This includes extra damage dice, like those obtained from a flaming weapon. This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.
Comments: This can get to extra cheesy heights. I'm pretty sure I'll have to nerf this to ignore maneuver dice. I mean, maximizing the 20 dice from girallon windmill flesh rip is pretty nasty.


Suggested maneuvers are welcomed, as is constructive criticism. I'm trying to come up with more maneuvers for the class, but it's hard.

Mastery of the Nine (Ex): A true master of the Nine develops his own maneuvers, adding his own to the Sublime way, instead of only taking from it. At level 5, a MoT9 can take one of the above maneuvers, or the maneuver listed below:

Grandmaster Strike: (Strike, one standard action, chosen creature range, effect is awe inspiring attack)
The few supreme MoT9 out there develop their own techniques for taking their foes down. While no single grandmaster strike is similar to another, they all share some characteristics: they are a demonstration of the pinnacle of weaponmanship, they inspire the lesser beings into awe, and they dispatch all but the toughest foes in a seemingly effortless way. Make an attack roll at +10 your AB. If it connects, The Grandmaster Strike inflicts 5d8 + 1d8+1 damage per initiator level (thus, a level 15 swordsage/level 5 MoT9 would do 25d8+20 damage with a Grandmaster strike). This maneuver is an extraordinary abillity.
Comments: Well, this strike is intended as DA ultimate damage skill for a user of Blade magic, and as a way to discourage multiclassing, since you want an initiator level as high as you possibly can. Maybe it's too powerful, maybe it's too weak. Comments?

Well, this is my idea for reworking a MoT9. I'll keep working on it. New ideas are appreciated.

I say.

TimeWizard
2007-09-25, 03:22 PM
I like the Manuever pool you got going on there, but not giving a Master of the Ninefold Path new manuevers is counter-intuitive or just a deceptive title. I wouldn't mind so much if this was a new take on the PrC, something that says "Manuever Secret Keeper". First thing to mind is Manuever Archivist, but that's kinda weak.

namo
2007-09-26, 06:19 AM
I like the idea, but your Masters of the Nine will never master nine schools ! It's apparently intended since you want to encourage single-classing, but like TimeWizard I think you would be better off finding a new name for this PrC.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-26, 07:12 AM
Ahh, but y'see, does a swordsage learn devoted spirit maneuvers? Or a Warblade Shadow hand? Or a Crusader Iron heart? Nay. A master of the nine can learn maneuvers that represent all of the schools, without having to waste every feat on martial study (maybe one or two feats for warblade or crusader. But not too many). And the reason for MoT9 not to learn new normal maneuvers is that instead of following the normal disciplines, which as the ToB says, are incomplete by themselves, part of the big picture, the MoT9 chooses to follow a more encompassing path. It wouldn't make sense for someone who intends to master the whole sublime way to STILL focus on only part of it (the schools), 'aight? Thus, no common maneuvers, but you get the special general ones.

Edit: oh, and standby for two new 'neuvers.

Guyr Adamantine
2007-09-26, 07:47 AM
The fact is, with the first MoT9 you learned new maneuvres from all schools. You were really able to pretend to the name. Oh, and any martial artist can create new maneuvres(in theory), so the MoT9's got to be pretty special. Still, do not worry, I respect your work and won't destroy it with caustic comments before seeing it finished.:smallsmile:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-26, 08:49 AM
Can it? hmmm. Innnnnnnteeeeerrrreessssstingggg. That might change things, maybe you get your common 'neuvers the first two levels and the special ones on the third and fourth. However, while MoT9 allows for choosing most any maneuver and adding the full PrC levels to your level for determining what maneuvers you can choose, the rediculous requirements don't make it too likely to be picked up. Assuming a Warblade, you need at least three feats on martial study. A swordsage needs to waste his feats to the point he can't do jack. And a crusader can't pick MoT9 until epic levels, more or less. Oh, added the Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit 'neuvers. Any contribution on Shadow Hand and Diamond mind is appreciated, I've got a massive writer's block with 'em.

PS: I think the maneuvers are pretty special, considering they have level 9'esque powers. And where else can you find a way to kill a tarrasque with inferno blasts?

Neftren
2007-09-26, 08:51 AM
Ahh, but y'see, does a swordsage learn devoted spirit maneuvers? Or a Warblade Shadow hand? Or a Crusader Iron heart? Nay. A master of the nine can learn maneuvers that represent all of the schools, without having to waste every feat on martial study (maybe one or two feats for warblade or crusader. But not too many). And the reason for MoT9 not to learn new normal maneuvers is that instead of following the normal disciplines, which as the ToB says, are incomplete by themselves, part of the big picture, the MoT9 chooses to follow a more encompassing path. It wouldn't make sense for someone who intends to master the whole sublime way to STILL focus on only part of it (the schools), 'aight? Thus, no common maneuvers, but you get the special general ones.

Edit: oh, and standby for two new 'neuvers.

I keep telling people over and over again. If you want to combine stuff, there's something called Multiclassing. Warblade/Swordsage or Crusader/Swordsage end up with tons of maneuvers. Throw in two or four levels of fighter for the bonus feat for Martial Study and BAM! There's the rest of your maneuvers opened. Swordsages learn the most, and to get Devoted Spirit, you're most likely going to take a few levels in Crusader. a 9th level 3 Crusader/3 Swordsage/3 Warblade already has access to every school of maneuvers and already has a total initiator level of 5.

What I'd like to see is a combination Duskblade and Swordsage looking something like a Bladesinger but as a Martial Adept instead of a spellcaster.

The Mormegil
2007-09-26, 10:21 AM
Ok, first thing: I like Mot9. It's a good class. This is primary 'cause I allow flaws in my game. That means 2 more feats. And a warblade can take Mot9 at ECL 15 quite easily. Remember also that, as it is, you can enter Mot9 before, but it truly shines only if you take it from level 16 on (being able to get most of 9th level manoeuvres). The only thing I would change in it are the feats: those should not include Improved Unarmed Strike (which is totally useless) but should include Weapon Focus [advantages the swordsage] and should be more flexible (like choosing between Combat Expertise and Power Attack, between Blind Fighting and Diehard [advantages the Crusader]).

BUT! I think that if you change the name of the class you could come up with something good. Also, most of your manoeuvres are a bit broken...

Anyway:
DIAMOND MIND
A manoeuvre that gives you extra actions and/or bonus on saves.

SHADOW HAND
A manoeuvre that may kill but needs to be flat-footing. Like the assassin's death attack.

STONE DRAGON
A manoeuvre that deals a ton of d6 damage and gives DR/adamantine.

And, you're forgetting stances.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-26, 11:01 AM
Hmm, nice things to answer.

Neftren: You DO realize you are hurting yourself by multiclassing a martial adept? You don't get many high level 'neuvers, so you want to make the most of 'em. Sure, maybe I can get a character that has the martial adept level to use 9th level maneuvers of every school under level 20, but what use does he/she have if my highest USABLE maneuver is of 6th level and I only have one 6th level 'neuver? A martial adept class, as much as leapfrogging would seem beneficial, is better off just taking two, maybe three disciplines, with a few maneuvers of others thrown in (like ancient mountain hammer for that pesky DR). If you want some kind of high power 'neuvers of other disciplines, that's where the new MoT9 kicks in. It can do things right, and complements your playing style. It even adds to RP, to boot. Unlike a combo of all the martial adepts, which is not credible. As for the duskblade/swordsage thing, multiclass, as you say.

Don't worry, I was joking. Maybe I can have a go at it when I'm done with the new MoT9.

Mormegil: hmmm, swords of darkness.....anyway, I had forgotten about flaws, but they still make you crappy if you take the bread 'n butter master of the nine. You spend five feats. Assuming a human swordsage (to avoid spending feats in martial study), you burn feats up to level 9, which nets you an inept warrior, who has a penalty for being able to take MoT9 at level 9. AND you shouldn't take it, 'cause it would disrupt your BAB progression, so you wait till level 12. Now, this means you get a crappy martial adept who has wasted feats. Ain't attractive AT ALL. And crusaders can't take it and reach the top, PERIOD. Not enough feats without flaws to take it before level 15 unless you play a human, and you won't do jack anyway. Warblade can get at 9 or so, but you still get a louosy guy. And even if you use bettah feats, it still sucks. No swordsage will use Power attack, you'll use maneuvers. Diehard had a prerequisite, if I'm correct, and even if it didn't, it's useless (unlike, for example, endurance, which allows you to sleep with a mithril full plate, which is yummy). Weapon focus shouldn't be taken unless you are a warblade, in which case you might as well go that route till you hit 21 and get wep supremacy. Feat reqs of more than 3 feats are very hindering, any way you look at it. And as for the suggested maneuver ideas:

Shadow hand will be crushed no matter what by the tiger claw maneuver I thought up. How can you improve a death maneuver that requires one of every kind of save without going epic?



Diamond mind is nice, though I've though of doing something similar but different with Shadow hand. But it might be pweety helpful anyway.


Stone dragon....this one I have beef with. If you check, none of my maneuvers BUT the grandmaster strike use damage dice directly, and that one uses a massively better dice with scaled level pluses. Why? Because damage maneuvers get outdated easily. Just try fighting a Tarrasque with any damage maneuver (assume it had all the immunities removed, but it conserves resistances and other qualities), it'll heal 40 points, which is more or less at least half of anything you hit it with. Thus, I'm trying to avoid those kinds of maneuvers to avoid it becoming useless in 2/3 levels. I like the DR thing, thought, but it's kinda covered by the Devoted spirit maneuver.

The Mormegil
2007-09-26, 11:42 AM
well, THAT'S what I meant with overpowered...

What I'd do:
Debilitating Strike: (Strike, 60 ft. range, requires standard action, effect is debilitating ki attack)
By concentrating his Ki, a master of the nine can launch a concentrated ball of power at an oponent, making him weaker to his attacks. The opponent must succeed against a ranged touch attack or have a resistance weakened or removed. This strike reduces an elemental immunity (such as immunity against fire) to resistance 20, and eliminates elemental resistence. Only one resistance might be affected per attack. The order of elimination is as follows: Fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic. Any other elemental resistance will be removed in alphabetical order. (?) The character is Exhausted after the execution of this maneuver. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.


Devastating Counter: (Counter, you range, requires immediate action, effect is poweful counter)
Focusing her energies on deflecting an enemy's blows, a MoT9 can turn around an enemy's attack with great strength. If a melee attack is made against you, make an attack roll. If you overcome the enemy's AC, the attck is considered an automatic critical hit with 3X multiplier. However, it is not a critical hit, and thus not hindered by immunity to them. This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.
Needs better wording

Berserking Tiger Slash: (Strike, chosen creature range, requires full round action, effect is demented assault)
You enter a state of horrific animal fury. Setting all thoughts of defense aside, you attack your enemy with mighty and brutal strikes. Make an attack roll. If you succeed, your opponent must make a Reflex save vs. DC (15 + your DEX modifier) to avoid being hit again with a second blow that would surely kill it, a Fortitude save vs. DC (15 + your STR modifier) to avoid dieing from the shock of your potent attack, and a Will save vs. DC (15 + your WIS modifier) to shrug off the horrific visage you present. Creatures without a CON score are immune to the Fortitude save. Creatures without INT are immune to the effects of the Will save. No protection exists from the effects of the Reflex save, however. Even if the target creature successfully saves against all three saves, she still takes 10d6 damage. You are considered flat footed until the beginning of your next turn. This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.
Forget this. Restart thinking.


Favored Cut: (Strike, requires a standard action, chosen creature, effect is divinely favored attack)
A MoT9 is a favored soul, who's destined to leave a mark. By calling on his devotion to his ideals, a Mot9 can both protect himself and inflict heavy damage to his foes. Make an attack roll. If your attack hits, you become wreathed in protective and gain a defensive aura. Choose a damage type (piercing, bludgeoning, slashing). You gain DR 20/your exactly opposite alignment (For example, a NG MoT9's opposite alignment is NE. If you are True Neutral, choose an alignment from LG, LE, CG, CE. That alignment becomes the one able to ignore the DR) + the damage type of your choice. This attack also deals an extra 12d6 damage. This maneuver is a supernatural ability


Supreme Weapon Bond: (strike, requires full attack action, chosen creature, effect is perfectly powerful attack)
A MoT9 is one with his weapon/s of choice, a conduit for sheer weapon mastery. By focusing, she can attack with devastating results. Make a single attack. Damage roll is maximized and multiplied by 1.5. This includes extra damage dice, like those obtained from a flaming weapon. This maneuver is an extraordinary ability.


Suggested maneuvers are welcomed, as is constructive criticism. I'm trying to come up with more maneuvers for the class, but it's hard.

Mastery of the Nine (Ex): A true master of the Nine develops his own maneuvers, adding his own to the Sublime way, instead of only taking from it. At level 5, a MoT9 can take one of the above maneuvers, or the maneuver listed below:

Grandmaster Strike: (Strike, one full-roundaction, chosen creature range, effect is awe inspiring attack)
The few supreme MoT9 out there develop their own techniques for taking their foes down. While no single grandmaster strike is similar to another, they all share some characteristics: they are a demonstration of the pinnacle of weaponmanship, they inspire the lesser beings into awe, and they dispatch all but the toughest foes in a seemingly effortless way. Make an attack. If you hit, The Grandmaster Strike inflicts 2d6 extra damage per initiator level (thus, a level 15 swordsage/level 5 MoT9 would do 40d6 damage with a Grandmaster strike). This maneuver is an extraordinary abillity.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-26, 02:08 PM
Hmmm. Nice contributions, Mormegil. I'll reword Debilitating, and check for any possible bend of the rules with the counter. Tiger slash, however, stays unless you can give me proof that it is TOO surefire. Pick any monster/s, I'll run the calcs for checking if it's too powerful. As for Favored cut, I'll think 'bout reducing it to 30, which is nice enough. and I'll add it works till the beginning of your next turn. Also, nice change for grandmaster, though I'm pretty sure my version is a bit weaker till the very high levels, if that was a nerf. If it was a buff, cool.

Edit: made the changes. All's more or less well now.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-27, 07:55 PM
Added the Shadow hand maneuver. Pretty neat, and powerful while not nearly as cheesy as the other ones.

PS: Sorry for the double post.