OOTS #1154 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Peelee]

Thundershield, meet Thunderhammer.

[zimmerwald1915]

"Loki sucks"

[Zonkerbl]

oh heck yeah

Durkon has just begun to arc

[Fyraltari]

Loki and Thor are brothers that's for sure.

[Trillium]

Infinity War: Dwarf gives Thor a new lightning super-hammer (or axe).
OOTS: Thor gives Dwarf a new lightning super-hammer.

[Pampukin]

"Loki sucks"

The password nearly made me spill my coffee.
Awesome comic.

[deworde]

It's MEOW MEOW!

[Fyraltari]

Nice touch with the gloves.

[deworde]

"Loki sucks"

I didn't even think to look at that! Wonderful.

[HandofShadows]

Is that what I think it is? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smallcool:

[Mad Humanist]

"Loki sucks"

Yup, probably going forward the world's easiest to hack password.

[DaOldeWolf]

And Durkon finally has a weapon upgrade. Cool! I wonder where he plans to get a new armor set.

[Bluepaw]

We... we're gonna need some power chords in the ol' soundtrack right about now.

[Peelee]

Is that what I think it is? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smallcool:

Five gold says its not.

[Resileaf]

I love that Elan needed warm milk to settle down instead of the actual baby.

And perhaps this is going to change people's minds on the whole prophecy thing and whether it's fulfilled or not.

Bah, who am I kidding. Of course it won't.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nice touch with the gloves.
Oh, is that what he's holding in his right hand? Nice indeed.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yup, probably going forward the world's easiest to hack password.
I dunno, I still think President Skroob's and King Roland's are easier.

[Resileaf]

I dunno, I still think President Skroob's and King Roland's are easier.

Besides, who'd've thunk that the statue had a password in the first place?

[Trillium]

Besides, who'd've thunk that the statue had a password in the first place?

A number of experienced adventurers, who learned various ways villains might hide their treasure?

[Peelee]

Nice touch with the gloves.


Oh, is that what he's holding in his right hand? Nice indeed.

I also missed it at first. I choose to believe they're silk. Hammer in smooth comfort, Durkon.

[Ruck]

"Loki sucks"

LOL, oh man, what a great gag. I can't wait to see the new hammer in action. I hope it does something cool like shoot lightning bolts, or fly Durkon around, or shoot dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

[zimmerwald1915]

Prediction: whatever new armor Durkon gets will have highlights the dark blue of the Church of Thor.

[Fish]

We... we're gonna need some power chords in the ol' soundtrack right about now.


Nice touch with the gloves.

More like "you can't touch this."

[Ganonphile]

Besides, who'd've thunk that the statue had a password in the first place?

I suppose that answers the question of what the dwarves forgot. The password!

[Tarthalion]

I knew it was time for Durkon to get an equipment upgrade!

[1chapelcredit]

Yes! Durkon is definitely worthy. Is that THE hammer??

[zimmerwald1915]

LOL, oh man, what a great gag. I can't wait to see the new hammer in action. I hope it does something cool like shoot lightning bolts, or fly Durkon around, or shoot dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.
A deadly bee weapon? :smallamused:

[Psyren]

Looks like he's gonna go Thor Ragnarok on those vampires :smallamused:

[zimmerwald1915]

More like "you can't touch this."
Do you mean "You've Got the Touch?"

[Peelee]

Yes! Durkon is definitely worthy. Is that THE hammer??
I have a feeling I'm gonna clean up on this.

Five gold says its not.

Prediction: whatever new armor Durkon gets will have highlights the dark blue of the Church of Thor.

I'm jumping on the Zim bandwagon.

[zimmerwald1915]

I also missed it at first. I choose to believe they're silk. Hammer in smooth comfort, Durkon.
Clearly they're cashmere. Just as comfy, but more insulated for the polar climes.

[Ruck]

We... we're gonna need some power chords in the ol' soundtrack right about now.

One of my favorite touches of Thor: Ragnarok-- and something I don't understand why Game of Thrones hasn't done, or really any other massive-Nordic-and-or-icy-weather-land battle scene in a movie has, to my recollection-- was the use of "The Immigrant Song" for an ass-kicking battle scene.

[Verappo]

Yay, long awaited weapon upgrade!
Nice twist to the prophecy too, making it about Durkon's choice to kick ass

[Peelee]

Clearly they're cashmere. Just as comfy, but more insulated for the polar climes.

Silk, IIRC, is nonconductive.

[KorvinStarmast]

I love that Elan needed warm milk to settle down instead of the actual baby. The first of numerous chuckles this strip provided. (Blackwing's wasn't quite as funny).

I suppose that answers the question of what the dwarves forgot. The password! Yeah.
I looked at the letters lighting up and laughed. Nice one. :smallcool:

I also like Belkar's fashion critique.

[Sniccups]

Oh, wow, YES. I was not expecting that. This is going to be so great.

[King of Nowhere]

I love the message that opens the secret compartment

I wonder how the dwarves forgot a holy relic in their own temple

[zimmerwald1915]

Silk, IIRC, is nonconductive.
It's a magic holy weapon. It's not harming its divinely-ordained user in any event.

[Ruck]

Yeesh, I'm a dummy. When I first read Belkar's "Deep-V look", I thought he meant that Durkon, like V, was now opting for robes instead of armor. Then I re-read and realized just how much of Durkon's chest is exposed. Between that and his holy symbol, he looks ready for a night at the disco.

[Resileaf]

A number of experienced adventurers, who learned various ways villains might hide their treasure?

Ah, but how many adventurers would search a non-dungeon temple? Everyone knows that treasure is found in the lairs of your enemies, not of your allies.

[Peelee]

One of my favorite touches of Thor: Ragnarok-- and something I don't understand why Game of Thrones hasn't done, or really any other massive-Nordic-and-or-icy-weather-land battle scene in a movie has, to my recollection-- was the use of "The Immigrant Song" for an ass-kicking battle scene.

Led Zeppelin is notoriously stringent on granting the rights to their songs.

It's a magic holy weapon. It's not harming its divinely-ordained user in any event.

True to the first part, but he is holding it in a gloved hand, to be fair.

[zimmerwald1915]

The first of numerous chuckles this strip provided. (Blackwing's wasn't quite as funny).
Yeah, had to reread it a couple times to get it - it was not immediately clear that the milk would be grazers' milk, and not grazing itself.

What? It's D&D, "ruminant boob drippings" could be an Ooze.

[Ivrytwr]

Nice upgrade for Durkon. Just imagining Thor whispering "Loki sucks" in his ear!
Thanks Giant!

[mjasghar]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJlhquUGZKY

[zimmerwald1915]

Ah, but how many adventurers would search a non-dungeon temple? Everyone knows that treasure is found in the lairs of your enemies, not of your allies.
Evil-aligned adventurers, presumably. Most likely clerics of Loki - who would be unlikely to think of such a blasphemy as "Loki sucks," never mind bring themselves to type it in.

Checkmate, trickster :smalltongue:

[micerang]

I'm excited to see what kind of havoc Durkon will wreak with the hammer, but I also can't help but wonder if he's going to get an awesome upgrade to his armor.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm jumping on the Zim bandwagon.
May I sig?

[mjasghar]

I didn't even think to look at that! Wonderful.
I missed the i bolded and thought it was locks suck - wondering if there was some word blocked off lol

[DaveMcW]

It's not Mjölnir.

I will bet 5 gold on Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts) though.


Hammer of Thunderbolts

This +3 Large returning warhammer deals 4d6 points of damage on any hit. Further, if the wielder wears a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power and he knows that the hammer is a hammer of thunderbolts (not just a +3 warhammer), the weapon can be used to full effect: It gains a total +5 enhancement bonus, allows all belt and gauntlet bonuses to stack (only when using this weapon), and strikes dead any giant upon whom it scores a hit (Fortitude DC 20 negates the death effect but not the damage).

When hurled, on a successful attack the hammer emits a great noise, like a clap of thunder, causing all creatures within 90 feet to be stunned for 1 round (Fortitude DC 15 negates). The hammer’s range increment is 30 feet.

Strong evocation, necromancy, and transmutation; CL 20th; Weight 15 lb.

[Ruck]

Led Zeppelin is notoriously stringent on granting the rights to their songs.

That's lame. I mean, it's not like they're doing all that much with them these days.

(I actually do have a certain respect for that, but come on, that's a perfect badass-fight-scene song. They know this; it's hard to believe Thor: Ragnarok is the first time it came up.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Between that and his holy symbol, he looks ready for a night at the disco. All he needs is a spoon for up his nose, and he'd be a dancin' fool. (Zappa reference ....)
Everyone knows that treasure is found in the lairs of your enemies, not of your allies. Aye. Hiding in plain sight.

Not sure why the gloves would be silk? (In re a comment further up)


Thor would smash their heads with his mighty hammer Mjollnir. To wield this awesome weapon he needed iron gloves and a belt of strength (http://mythicalrealm.com/legends/thor.html). Mjollnir would return to Thor's hand after being thrown and was symbolic of lightning. Thor was foremost of the gods to the common man, who would call on him to ensure fertility, and widely worshiped.
And per "The Challenge of Thor" by Longfellow, Thor was indeed originally a ginger.

[littlebum2002]

Glad I'm not the only one to think this strip sounds like Immigrant Song

[Peelee]

May I sig?

Always. I figure I shouldn't say stuff if I'm ever afraid of the words being preserved, and if I ever say bad things, it should be available as a reminder to be better.

Also I'm very egotistical.

[Fyraltari]

Darn, according to V, vampires are resistant to electicity. I hope liches aren’t.

I love the message that opens the secret compartment

I wonder how the dwarves forgot a holy relic in their own temple
Most likely it was kept a secret of the highest member of the Clergy. A secret weapon to only be used at the direst of time. And then one day everybody who knew were killed in a cave-in or some such and all mentions of the hammer were allegorical or thought to be allegorical.


Now I imagine a young Durkon having to write an essay on the symbolism of ‘the power of thunder lies under the feet of Thor’.

[Peelee]

Not sure why the gloves would be silk? (In re a comment further up)


Silk, IIRC, is nonconductive.
Of course, when I say "I choose to believe," it's usually about something im fairly certain is not the case, but I'm very amused by the thought.

[zimmerwald1915]

Darn, according to V, vampires are resistant to electicity. I hope liches aren’t.
Actually, liches are immune to electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[Fyraltari]

Actually, liches are immune to electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Oh, that’s too bad.

[Sapphire Guard]

Ah, there's that destruction I was wondering about.

[Grey Watcher]

It's so ecclesiastical and smitey!

[a shiny, newly-minted quatloo to the first person to tell me what I'm quoting there]

I love it. In addition to being awesome-looking, it's got just the right mix of profundity and goofiness (the password).


Thundershield, meet Thunderhammer.

:smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

[a shiny, newly-minted quatloo to the first person to tell me what I'm quoting there]

Me. You just had to say "there" instead of "here," didn't you?

[Resileaf]

Thundershield, meet Thunderhammer.

Actually, it's Lightninghammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html).

[klarg1]

Yes! Durkon is definitely worthy. Is that THE hammer??

It seems pretty unlikely that this is Mjölnir. Thor has been carrying a hammer with him every time we've seen him, even as recently as OOTS #1150, and I presume that to be THE hammer. It does look pretty magical though.


It's not Mjölnir.

I will bet 5 gold on Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts) though.

That seems like a good guess. Any thoughts on the gloves?

[2D8HP]

Despite the risk of plumbism, I sincerely hope that the hammer has some lead, and Durkon says "Time to get the Led out!"

[gondrizzle]

It's not Mjölnir.

I will bet 5 gold on Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts) though.

I mean... that's basically just Mjölnir without the name. It's like the CVS Generic version of Mjölnir.

[Martok]

Hell. Yes. :smallcool:


It's way past time Durkon got an upgrade; good to see it finally happen. And the password is absolute gold. :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

That seems like a good guess. Any thoughts on the gloves?
Sure; silk. :smalltongue:

Actually, it's Lightninghammer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html).
Oh that's a nice catch!

[Kish]

A deadly bee weapon? :smallamused:
Bees. My God.

[2xMachina]

Evil-aligned adventurers, presumably. Most likely clerics of Loki - who would be unlikely to think of such a blasphemy as "Loki sucks," never mind bring themselves to type it in.

Checkmate, trickster :smalltongue:

And it's probably enchanted with Holy, Lawful to boot, so...

[WolvesbaneIII]

Bees. My God.

NOT THE BEES!

But I read vampires are resistant to electricity. Can it smash them up good though? Would a holy variant of this via "holy lightning" be allowed? or would that require some home brewing?

Roy has his ace weapon, as does haley and the ice bow, belkar has that psionic dagger, what about the rest? And didn't haleys bow get destroyed?

[Resileaf]

And it's probably enchanted with Holy, Lawful to boot, so...

Probably not lawful, Thor is of a Chaotic alignment himself.

[PrismCat21]

It's so ecclesiastical and smitey!

[a shiny, newly-minted quatloo to the first person to tell me what I'm quoting there]

I love it. In addition to being awesome-looking, it's got just the right mix of profundity and goofiness (the password).



:smallbiggrin:

Draken webcomic. Specifically from the character Mink I believe. :P

[Resileaf]

NOT THE BEES!

But I read vampires are resistant to electricity. Can it smash them up good though? Would a holy variant of this via "holy lightning" be allowed? or would that require some home brewing?

Roy has his ace weapon, as does haley and the ice bow, belkar has that psionic dagger, what about the rest? And didn't haleys bow get destroyed?

The bow didn't get destroyed, Roy just sliced the bowstring.

[factotum]

So death was dealt by Durkula, and the destruction will come from the recovered Durkon? Hmmmm.

[Iago]

It's not Mjölnir.

I will bet 5 gold on Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts) though.

I concur, especially in light of the gauntlets (presumably ogre power) except if there is a rule against a Dwarf using a Large sized weapon. In which case, I submit the dwarven thrower hammer as a likely alternative.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarven_Thrower

[Elvensilver]

Am I the only one that got some seriously evil vibes from the last panel? I mean, that expression, that comment, and the dramatic lighting… Probably only aftereffects from Durkula, I mean, it's Durkon...

[Peelee]

Am I the only one that got some seriously evil vibes from the last panel? I mean, that expression, that comment, and the dramatic lighting… Probably only aftereffects from Durkula, I mean, it's Durkon...

Vampires, being undead, are not killed; they are instead destroyed.

No evil vibes for me.

[zimmerwald1915]

This strip would be happy.

It would probably be a bit off-tone, but it would be funny if they used the hammer to crack a joke about magic items that are just +X weapons. I doubt it though, especially as the comic seems to heading towards the end.

:elan: "Wow! What does that do!"
:durkon: "Oh, it channels Thor's divine power to..."
:elan: "Shoot lightning bolts!? Incinerate trees!? Level Mountains!?
:durkon: "... give me a +10 bonus to attack and damage rolls'
That joke was made with respect to Roy's sword already, after it was reforged.

[drazen]

I mean... that's basically just Mjölnir without the name. It's like the CVS Generic version of Mjölnir.

I am curious why someone (not referring to you here) would think the secret lost to Durkon's people and told to him by the literal Thunder God would be merely an ordinary (if high end) item, not something specifically forged by/for Thor.

Also, lucky coincidence it was stored in Firmament!

[b_jonas]

Thor has been carrying a hammer with him every time we've seen him, even as recently as OOTS #1150, And he's still carrying it in his hands in statue form here.

[JackPhoenix]

Nice touch with the gloves.

Funny thing, I haven't noticed the gloves, but I thought the belt is rather prominent...

[Fish]

Do you mean "You've Got the Touch?"
No, I mean you can't touch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5X5zh00rdg) because it's definitely Hammertime. Also because he's got gloves on, because he can't touch this.

There, frog dissected.

[Resileaf]

Also, lucky coincidence it was stored in Firmament!

Not quite a coincidence. Firmament is the location of the main temple of Thor. It makes sense that an artifact of his would be stored there.

[zimmerwald1915]

I am curious why someone (not referring to you here) would think the secret lost to Durkon's people and told to him by the literal Thunder God would be merely an ordinary (if high end) item, not something specifically forged by/for Thor.
The hammer of Thunderbolts is an artifact, hardly an "ordinary item."

[Stabbey]

NOT THE BEES!

But I read vampires are resistant to electricity. Can it smash them up good though? Would a holy variant of this via "holy lightning" be allowed? or would that require some home brewing?

Roy has his ace weapon, as does haley and the ice bow, belkar has that psionic dagger, what about the rest? And didn't haleys bow get destroyed?

Elan got a Chaos Saber from Julio, and V got a +1 Spell Level Ioun Stone from Laurin, so that's their upgrades covered.

[Fish]

But I read vampires are resistant to electricity. Can it smash them up good though? Would a holy variant of this via "holy lightning" be allowed? or would that require some home brewing?
We already know that Loki's fire burns hotter.

I imagine the same is true for divine lightning of Thor.

The vampires (and Xykon) may be in for a surprise.

[JackPhoenix]

It's so ecclesiastical and smitey!

[a shiny, newly-minted quatloo to the first person to tell me what I'm quoting there]

I love it. In addition to being awesome-looking, it's got just the right mix of profundity and goofiness (the password).



:smallbiggrin:

Mink, from Darken comic. Funnily enough, I remembered the quote, the characters and the plot, but not the actual name of the comic.

[ThisIsNotDan]

We... we're gonna need some power chords in the ol' soundtrack right about now.


LOL, oh man, what a great gag. I can't wait to see the new hammer in action. I hope it does something cool like shoot lightning bolts, or fly Durkon around, or shoot dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

Maybe it rocks out, flies, shoots lightning, and turns walnuts into pigeons. I know a pretty arkin' cool hammer like that.

[Grey Watcher]

Me.

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. Here is your quatloo, sir. Now I have to go make another one.


You just had to say "there" instead of "here," didn't you?

Yes. Yes I did. :smalltongue:


Draken webcomic. Specifically from the character Mink I believe. :P

You are actually correct! Here is your quatloo, plus an additional quatloo as compensation for the wait.


No, I mean you can't touch this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5X5zh00rdg) because it's definitely Hammertime. Also because he's got gloves on, because he can't touch this.

There, frog dissected.

Unless proven otherwise my headcanon is now that, when this nefarious plot of hers is foiled, Loki will appear to Hel, conjure an illusory "destroy world" button, and proceed to perform this song, complete with dance, in front of it for her.

[Crœsos]

Elan got a Chaos Saber from Julio, and V got a +1 Spell Level Ioun Stone from Laurin, so that's their upgrades covered.

Technically Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) got an Ioun Stone from Laurin, but V can share the effects (if close enough).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I was going to make an Immigrant Song joke, but I think at this point that’s a low-hanging fruit (like a Tangerine), so instead I’ll just say that Durkon and his Friends are going to drag the vampires to the Gallows Pole. And really, That’s The Way it ought to be.

Also, grats to the people who correctly predicted that Durkon would find weapons. And to the people who guessed that Durkon’s armor was indeed destroyed. And good day for predications all around! (Unless you bet wrong on this against Peelee, I guess)

[MartianInvader]

Okay, I had to get him a glass of warm milk to settle him down, but
Aw, cute little Kud-

Elan's resting now.
:facepalm: of course he is. Well played.

Also, with this hammer bestowed by Thor, I believe every weapon-wielding member of the Order now has a notable weapon with a unique backstory (Eagle-Eye Pete's bow, Tarquin's dagger, Julio's chaos saber, and of course Roy's ancestral sword).

[Linneris]

Someone predicted the forgotten secret being a magic item. Good call.

[JackPhoenix]

You are actually correct! Here is your quatloo, plus an additional quatloo as compensation for the wait.

But... but... he spelled it wrong! That doesn't count!

[Peelee]

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct. Here is your quatloo, sir. Now I have to go make another one.

Woohoo! I am promoting you to Retired Mod Bureaucrat Grade 32.

Unless proven otherwise my headcanon is now that, when this nefarious plot of hers is foiled, Loki will appear to Hel, conjure an illusory "destroy world" button, and proceed to perform this song, complete with dance, in front of it for her.
Seconded.

[Worldsong]

Good page.

I'm somewhat disappointed that the title isn't 'Hammerspace' though.

[Draconi Redfir]

It's Hammetime!:smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

I was going to make an Immigrant Song joke, but I think at this point that’s a low-hanging fruit (like a Tangerine), so instead I’ll just say that Durkon and his Friends are going to drag the vampires to the Gallows Pole. And really, That’s The Way it ought to be.

Also, grats to the people who correctly predicted that Durkon would find weapons. And to the people who guessed that Durkon’s armor was indeed destroyed. And good day for predications all around! (Unless you bet wrong on this against Peelee, I guess)

Lord I was born a ramblin' gamblin' man... :smallamused: Not Zep, but still.

[Pablo360]

This is so awesome! And I don't mean because of the weapon itself. The fact that Durkon got a special magic weapon —*one connected to his ongoing character arc —*puts him thematically on the same level as the rest of the party. In a fantasy story like this, a new weapon, especially a magic one, is always tied to character development in some way. Durkon never got one before because his characterization was always staid and uncomplicated. Nowe he's become one of the most complex characters in the comic, so he gets a physical memento of this added growth and nuance.

He's earned this.

[D.One]

WOW

That's a good upgrade, I must say. I don't think that's THE MJOLNIR, but I do think it may be A Hammer of Thunderbolts, which is a minor artifact and quite powerful. If those gloves are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and if there's a Belt of Giant Strength in there too, we may be looking for very powerful combination.

LoKi SuCKs :smallbiggrin: LOL

[DaveMcW]

a rule against a Dwarf using a Large sized weapon.

He has to wield it with both hands and suffer a -2 attack penalty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#inappropriatelySizedWeapons), but as a medium creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dwarf.htm) he can use large weapons.

[Dausuul]

Well, that setup paid off quick.

[tyckspoon]

I concur, especially in light of the gauntlets (presumably ogre power) except if there is a rule against a Dwarf using a Large sized weapon. In which case, I submit the dwarven thrower hammer as a likely alternative.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Dwarven_Thrower

There's some penalties and rules weirdness associated with it, but there's nothing stopping a Medium creature from using a Large weapon - the main impact is it takes an extra hand worth to wield it (ie, a one handed weapon has to be used in two hands, so Durkon won't be using a shield any more if the Giant decides to stick to that. There's some items and feats that can mitigate it, which may or may not be specifically called out if the characters spend some time actually talking about the new weapon.) And yeah, I'm throwing in on actual Hammer of Thunderbolts here - it's drawn significantly larger than Durkon's previous hammer, which fits with being a Large weapon, it's got the lightning logo right there, and it was apparently stashed with a pair of gauntlets, which I'm betting are Gauntlets of Ogre Power. There might be a Belt of Giant Strength in there as well - the whole kit needed to use a Hammer of Thunderbolts at full effect.

Edit: Although oddly enough a standard Hammer of Thunderbolts doesn't actually have any either lightning or sonic damage. That may be something Rich adds/modifies so that it is more in line with reader's intuitive understandings of Thor and what a weapon patterned after his very own hammer should do.

[Baywolfe]

As Hela once said to Thor, "Tell me, Brother: What were you the God of, again?"

[Asmodean_]

Just spent three minutes trying to figure out what Loki's Ucks were and why they would be a keyword

[woweedd]

Lightninghammer.

[Lord Torath]

Edit: Although oddly enough a standard Hammer of Thunderbolts doesn't actually have any either lightning or sonic damage. 1E/2E had a stunning sonic boom on impact when thrown. No actual damage apart from the initial impact, though.

[SilverCacaobean]

Is that... the hammer of Ironfist? Along with the gauntlets of Ironfist? :smalleek: I'm in awe. Really. :smalltongue:

[D.One]

Just spent three minutes trying to figure out what Loki's Ucks were and why they would be a keyword

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

LOL

Can't stop laughing...:smallsmile:

[TuringTest]

Actually, liches are immune to electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Yes, but what about SONIC?!!

[Doug Lampert]

We already know that Loki's fire burns hotter.

I imagine the same is true for divine lightning of Thor.

The vampires (and Xykon) may be in for a surprise.

And in any case, the Hammer of Thunderbolts does no lightning damage, it makes a clap of thunder that stuns, and IIRC undead are immune to that, but all the damage works fine.

[Ubab]

LoKiSuCKs, a great way to secure a weapon!

Now, it's time to Durkon act like a cleric of Hulk, and SMASH!

[zimmerwald1915]

1E/2E had a stunning sonic boom on impact when thrown. No actual damage apart from the initial impact, though.
FWIW, here's the 3.5E version:


Hammer of Thunderbolts
This +3 Large returning warhammer deals 4d6 points of damage on any hit. Further, if the wielder wears a belt of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power and he knows that the hammer is a hammer of thunderbolts (not just a +3 warhammer), the weapon can be used to full effect: It gains a total +5 enhancement bonus, allows all belt and gauntlet bonuses to stack (only when using this weapon), and strikes dead any giant upon whom it scores a hit (Fortitude DC 20 negates the death effect but not the damage).

When hurled, on a successful attack the hammer emits a great noise, like a clap of thunder, causing all creatures within 90 feet to be stunned for 1 round (Fortitude DC 15 negates). The hammer’s range increment is 30 feet.

Strong evocation, necromancy, and transmutation; CL 20th; Weight 15 lb.

[D.One]

Edit: Although oddly enough a standard Hammer of Thunderbolts doesn't actually have any either lightning or sonic damage.

According to 3.5 SRD:


[...] When hurled, on a successful attack the hammer emits a great noise, like a clap of thunder, causing all creatures within 90 feet to be stunned for 1 round (Fortitude DC 15 negates). The hammer’s range increment is 30 feet. [...]

No damage, right, but there's a thunderclap effect.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Zimmer

[Kish]

Elan got a Chaos Saber from Julio, and V got a +1 Spell Level Ioun Stone from Laurin, so that's their upgrades covered.
And Haley's bow got its string cut--far from destroyed.

[Mordar]

One of my favorite touches of Thor: Ragnarok-- and something I don't understand why Game of Thrones hasn't done, or really any other massive-Nordic-and-or-icy-weather-land battle scene in a movie has, to my recollection-- was the use of "The Immigrant Song" for an ass-kicking battle scene.

That opening bit alone made the movie for me. Yup, the estate carefully guards the license rights...they don't want to end up having their music shilling for just anybody...and they even get some creative control over the presentation of the music in movies. Since they aren't in need of bread for bread, they are in a position to demand what they want.

Also, loved the Simpson's dog/bee riff. You live in my head?


Despite the risk of plumbism, I sincerely hope that the hammer has some lead, and Durkon says "Time to get the Led out!"

No...*Elan* says that, and then Durkon whoops people. If anyone here is the DJ, it's Elan.

- M

[D.One]

That opening bit alone made the movie for me. Yup, the estate carefully guards the license rights...they don't want to end up having their music shilling for just anybody...and they even get some creative control over the presentation of the music in movies. Since they aren't in need of bread for bread, they are in a position to demand what they want.

Also, loved the Simpson's dog/bee riff. You live in my head?



No...*Elan* says that, and then Durkon whoops people. If anyone here is the DJ, it's Elan.

- M

Elan would ask Durkon to lead the way...

[Pablo360]

As Hela once said to Thor, "Tell me, Brother: What were you the God of, again?"

Thor: “The God of Destruction!” Chozetsu Dynamic starts playing in the background*

[Crœsos]

Here's a (possibly non-comprehensive) linked list of Order of the Stick weapon upgrades:

Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) - Ring of Wizardry
Roy Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) - Starmetal Sword
Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) - Keen Rapier
Haley Starshine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) - Icy Burst Arch-O-Ry
Elan (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html) - Chaos Sabre
Belkar Bitterleaf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html) - Psionic Dagger
Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) - Ioun Stone
Roy Greenhilt (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html) - Weapons of Legacy Book (booster for Starmetal Sword)
Durkon Thundershield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) - Hammer of ???

[grandpheonix]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat this is amazing omgrotf he needs frikkin gloves to weild it?!?!

[chy03001]

WHY?!

Why wasn't Elan in the room for this?!?!

[nolongeralurker]

So, apparently Minrah will be joining the next battle as well! I hadn't thought of that for some reason, maybe because I think someone suggested Durkon would wait to raise her so that he could use all his spells in the battle. But thinking about it now, it makes sense tactically that he'd use one spell to raise her and then they'd gain all of her spells. I suppose it's theoretically possible he'll heal Sigdi so she can help in the battle too, as someone suggested last thread I believe, but I doubt that'll happen.


And Durkon finally has a weapon upgrade. Cool! I wonder where he plans to get a new armor set.
They're in a temple of Thor. There's probably some spare armor around.


Yay, long awaited weapon upgrade!
Nice twist to the prophecy too, making it about Durkon's choice to kick ass

So death was dealt by Durkula, and the destruction will come from the recovered Durkon? Hmmmm.
The only problem with these interpretations is that the priest of Odin said "for us all." Maybe "all" is used loosely enough that it only applies to those of "us" that were turned into vampires (similar to how, if it's used loosely, it could apply to just the dwarves who've already been killed and vamped, as people have said before. Of course, there's still people's interpretation that "for" only refers to Durkula's intentions, not what he was actually able to accomplish...).


Me.
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but I don't get this.

[The Pilgrim]

Ready to roll them!

That little secret got resolved faster than expected. Good to see plot points getting resolved at fast pace.

[Turin_19]

Here's a (possibly non-comprehensive) linked list of Order of the Stick weapon upgrades:

Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) - Ring of Wizardry
Roy Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) - Starmetal Sword
Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) - Keen Rapier
Haley Starshine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) - Icy Burst Arch-O-Ry
Elan (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html) - Chaos Sabre
Belkar Bitterleaf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html) - Psionic Dagger
Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) - Ioun Stone
Roy Greenhilt (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html) - Weapons of Legacy Book (booster for Starmetal Sword)
Durkon Thundershield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) - Hammer of ???



I've been thinking of this and how power is currently distributed along the order now. V seemed to me the most powerful, but could we say now that Durkon and Roy are very similar to her now?

While Haley and Belkar seem 'weaker' but maybe capable of attacking more times per round? (I'm no D&D player).



And Elan even weaker.

[zimmerwald1915]

I've been thinking of this and how power is currently distributed along the order now. V seemed to me the most powerful, but could we say now that Durkon and Roy are very similar to her now?

While Haley and Belkar seem 'weaker' but maybe capable of attacking more times per round? (I'm no D&D player).



And Elan even weaker.
Elan is by far the most powerful, since he can manipulate how the world works. That he chooses not to is of no moment.

Vaarsuvius and Haley are probably the highest-level, for what that's worth (nothing).

[Peelee]

Maybe I'm just being stupid, but I don't get this.

Grey Watcher quoted a line from Darken. He also used the forum's Quote function on one of my posts, so I weasled my way into winning a quatloo (and a finely crafted one at that).

[Snails]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat this is amazing omgrotf he needs frikkin gloves to weild it?!?!

Well..

Járngreipr
(from Wikipedia)
In Norse mythology, Járngreipr (Old Norse "iron grippers") or Járnglófar ("iron gauntlets"[1]) are the iron gloves of the god Thor. According to the Prose Edda, along with the hammer Mjölnir and the belt Megingjörð, Járngreipr is one of Thor's three crucial possessions. According to chapter 20 of the book Gylfaginning, he requires the gloves to handle his powerful hammer. The reason for this may come from the forging of the hammer, when the dwarf working the bellows was bitten in his eye by a gadfly (commonly held to be Loki in disguise) which caused the handle of the hammer to be shortened.

BTW, in the world of D&D 1e, Mjölnir can be wielded by a mortal who wears both a Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Giant strength was required to even pick it up.

So I would guess this hammer is an incarnation of Mjölnir, an Epic-level artifact forged to closely follow the inspiration of the real thing. Thor obviously is holding the True Mjölnir.

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon Thundershield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) - Hammer of ???

I bet it's the Hammer of Thunderbolts:
https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hammer_of_Thunderbolts

Which may mean that those gaunlets are not for show, but actually the Gaunlets of Ogre Power.

[LasVegasLawyer]

WOW

That's a good upgrade, I must say. I don't think that's THE MJOLNIR, but I do think it may be A Hammer of Thunderbolts, which is a minor artifact and quite powerful. If those gloves are Gauntlets of Ogre Power and if there's a Belt of Giant Strength in there too, we may be looking for very powerful combination.

LoKi SuCKs :smallbiggrin: LOL

You mean like the belt around Roy's waist?

[nolongeralurker]

Grey Watcher quoted a line from Draken. He also used the forum's Quote function on one of my posts, so I weasled my way into winning a quatloo (and a finely crafted one at that).
Oh, okay, cool. I thought it was something along those lines, but I didn't realize he'd quoted something else you said.

[RaveDave92084]

Repeated listed to Led Zeppelin's "Immigrant Song" after the mention while reading this discussion and re-reading the comic...

VERY appropriate for reading this comic if you can.

The password was entirely, wickedly, EPICally (?is this a word?, should it be?) funny for me. Hit my funny bone just right.

So, we see, potentially, a hammer of Thunderbolts and gauntlets of Ogre Power, no belt, yet.

Let us see the Champion of Thor bring the prophesied DESTRUCTION..A-A-A-A-A-A-H, AH, A-A-A-A-A-H, AH... We come from the land of the ice snow

ARGH!!! now I have the ear worm again... so distressing.

[zimmerwald1915]

You mean like the belt around Roy's waist?
Like that one, but probably not that one. The hammer probably comes cached with one, that Durkon simply hasn't picked up yet.

That or he's been wearing one since the first strip, and never mentioned it.

[137beth]

Ah, so that's what he wouldn't let us here:smallsmile:

[Kish]

Elan is by far the most powerful, since he can manipulate how the world works. That he chooses not to is of no moment.
Sounding like Tarquin is bad.

[Vendanna]

...it's got the lightning logo right there, and it was apparently stashed with a pair of gauntlets, which I'm betting are Gauntlets of Ogre Power. There might be a Belt of Giant Strength in there as well - the whole kit needed to use a Hammer of Thunderbolts at full effect.

Roy HAS a belt of giant strenght he got from rescuing those guys from the slaver bugs in the desert. just in case you have forgotten, which wouldn't be hard to happen since it was a long time ago. :)

[zimmerwald1915]

Sounding like Tarquin is bad.
So are ad hominem fallacies. Just because Tarquin believes something does not make that thing untrue. Nor does having a belief in common with Tarquin mean that a speaker holds all of Tarquin's beliefs.

[AutomatedTeller]

I love the hammer, love "Loki sucks", which I missed until the forum, but I think "ruminant boob drippings" is the best part of the comic ;)

[Grey Watcher]

Mink, from Darken comic. Funnily enough, I remembered the quote, the characters and the plot, but not the actual name of the comic.


But... but... he spelled it wrong! That doesn't count!

Do you people think I'm made of quatloos!?

Ugh, fine! But this is the last one!

:hands over quatloo:

[Joe the Rat]

Hammer a' Thunderboolts!

Or not. But if he needs to borrow Roy's belt to go with those swell gauntlets...

[Henk]

I'd love to get that last panel as a wallpaper for my iPhone...

[AutomatedTeller]

Is V required to trance to learn spells? I ask, because it was a big plot point that trancing is not biologically necessary for elves, and in fact during the whole research thing, there was no trancing.

Is this just because V is smarter now?

[SilverCacaobean]

So are ad hominem fallacies. Just because Tarquin believes something does not make that thing untrue. Nor does having a belief in common with Tarquin mean that a speaker holds all of Tarquin's beliefs.

Tarquin was wrong though. He didn't manage to control the narrative the way he thought he would and neither can Elan.

[Grey Watcher]

Tarquin was wrong though. He didn't manage to control the narrative the way he thought he would and neither can Elan.

We heard you like fallacies, so we put fallacies in your fallacies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy).

[Fyraltari]

Is V required to trance to learn spells? I ask, because it was a big plot point that trancing is not biologically necessary for elves, and in fact during the whole research thing, there was no trancing.

Is this just because V is smarter now?

Did V struck you as healthy during that time? Just becaause something isn't necessary for you to stay alive doesn't mean it isn't good for you. Also the reason V avoided trancing was because of the guilt-tripping dreams, which I think they have gotten over by now.

[GregTD]

The password "Loki sucks" nearly made me spill my coffee.
Awesome comic.

Um, where are you all seeing that?

[tyckspoon]

Is V required to trance to learn spells? I ask, because it was a big plot point that trancing is not biologically necessary for elves, and in fact during the whole research thing, there was no trancing.

Is this just because V is smarter now?

It's not 'biologically necessary' in about the same way sleeping is not 'biologically necessary' for humans - which is to say, you can avoid doing it and it won't (immediately) kill you, but you will suffer for it. The text requirement for recovering spells is '8 hours of rest' - that doesn't have to include sleep/trance, but any sufficiently strenuous activity will disrupt it. V presumably found some activity (reading books of magical theory or similar, probably) that would help with their studies but still counted as 'resting' to do instead of trancing. They have probably since realized that being exhausted and on edge because they decided to do something 'useful' instead of trancing doesn't actually help the Order.


Roy HAS a belt of giant strenght he got from rescuing those guys from the slaver bugs in the desert. just in case you have forgotten, which wouldn't be hard to happen since it was a long time ago. :)

Hadn't forgotten, just figured Roy probably won't be asked to surrender his item so Durkon can make use of another one. Especially if, say, Roy has a +6 belt, and the Hammer was stashed with +2 Gloves and a +4 belt.. not that Rich is likely to go into the exact bonuses in that detail, but it would mean they're getting the same total benefit from their respective items, while still leaving Roy as 'the strong one' due to likely starting with a higher Strength.

[Fyraltari]

Um, where are you all seeing that?

The letters Durkon pressed are darker.

[zimmerwald1915]

Tarquin was wrong though. He didn't manage to control the narrative the way he thought he would and neither can Elan.
Tarquin applied his method using the wrong inputs - for instance, an assumption that the story about himself was the central one. That does not invalidate the method, it merely means that one must be careful when applying it.

Also, Tarquin had Elan working against him, as opposed to the savvy-less people who had been his opponents all his life up til then.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also the reason V avoided trancing was because of the guilt-tripping dreams, which I think they have gotten over by now.
You'd think the opposite would be true, but apparently genocide is a thing you just get over.

Or maybe instead of running from it, Vaarsuvius punishes herself by subjecting herself to the memory over and over.

[kenlund]

If Durkon lost a spell level or some number of spells by being raised twice....I guess this will make up for it!!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is that what I think it is? [EDIT FOR CLARITY: I mean a Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts), not Mjolnir.]

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?

[Fyraltari]

You'd think the opposite would be true, but apparently genocide is a thing you just get over.

Or maybe instead of running from it, Vaarsuvius punishes herself by subjecting herself to the memory over and over.

Not the same guilt.


Is that what I think it is?

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?
Thor told him to. Do you think any Cleric of Thor is going to contest that authority?

[Peelee]

Tarquin applied his method using the wrong inputs - for instance, an assumption that the story about himself was the central one. That does not invalidate the method, it merely means that one must be careful when applying it.

Also, Tarquin had Elan working against him, as opposed to the savvy-less people who had been his opponents all his life up til then.

Indeed, though I wouldnt say that Tarquin or Elan can manipulate the narrative. They simply understand the narrative and know how to work within its constraints. Swimming is a hell of a lot easier than parting the water.

Is that what I think it is?

So long as you dont think it's Mjölnir, probably.

[Kish]

Tarquin was wrong though. He didn't manage to control the narrative the way he thought he would and neither can Elan.
Indeed. It could only be an ad hominem if I was making a counterargument; I find the argument too bizarre and incomprehensible to do that, so instead I'm trying to get Zimmer to think about what he's doing here, in the name of pretending Vaarsuvius the Vile is not one of the six main characters of the Order of the Stick webcomic.

[Grey Watcher]

Tarquin applied his method using the wrong inputs - for instance, an assumption that the story about himself was the central one. That does not invalidate the method, it merely means that one must be careful when applying it.

Also, Tarquin had Elan working against him, as opposed to the savvy-less people who had been his opponents all his life up til then.

Except for Julio Soundrel, at least. ("You of all people should be able to see the shape of this.")

I think part of the point is that genre savviness doesn't confer the control that Tarquin thinks it does. It means you have more information to inform your decision making (and in a self-aware parody universe it's crucial information), and that information can include "reasonable assumptions of how a given person might react," but he's still ultimately left with navigating the world like anyone else. Roy is able to subvert the "tragic execution" scene just by being badass and refusing to accept the allegedly inevitable. Yeah, better information is a kind of power, but it's not an insurmountable advantage.

One of Tarquin's biggest flaws is assuming he's more important and more in control than he really is. He assumes that Elan's, Scoundrel's, and Nale's narratives all revolve around him (Elan's got Haley, Roy, Xykon, Vaarsuvius, Durkon, and Belkar all ahead of Tarquin on that front, Tarquin's a B-List villain to Scoundrel, and Nale fights his father tooth and nail (heh) on the point). He assumes he's the leader of the Vector Legion (he might be nominally, but he has to use favors and alliances on the others to get what he wants and they are equally free to use such methods on him).

EDIT: Ninja's by Peelee, who put it a heck of a lot more succinctly.

[gatemansgc]

LOKI SUCKS

best password ever. XDDD

[GreatWyrmGold]

So long as you font think it's Mjölnir, probably.
I shoulda been quicker with that edit.

[gatemansgc]

Is that what I think it is? [EDIT FOR CLARITY: I mean a Hammer of Thunderbolts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#hammerofThunderbolts), not Mjolnir.]

...Does Durkon have the authority to requisition artifact-level hammers?

so i would guess the gloves he's putting on are gauntlets of ogre power. and roy has a belt of giant strength.

...i guess that makes up for him being -2 level then.

[SilverCacaobean]

We heard you like fallacies, so we put fallacies in your fallacies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy).

Maybe I chose the wrong post to quote. I mean Tarquin was wrong that he can manipulate how the world works which was Zim's original assertion. I don't see what I say has to do with the fallacy you linked.

Unless there's something else I'm missing here?

[Crœsos]

It's not 'biologically necessary' in about the same way sleeping is not 'biologically necessary' for humans - which is to say, you can avoid doing it and it won't (immediately) kill you, but you will suffer for it. The text requirement for recovering spells is '8 hours of rest' - that doesn't have to include sleep/trance, but any sufficiently strenuous activity will disrupt it. V presumably found some activity (reading books of magical theory or similar, probably) that would help with their studies but still counted as 'resting' to do instead of trancing. They have probably since realized that being exhausted and on edge because they decided to do something 'useful' instead of trancing doesn't actually help the Order.

No "demanding mental tasks" are allowed either. We were given an example of the kind of tomes one could read instead of trancing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html).

[Grey Watcher]

You'd think the opposite would be true, but apparently genocide is a thing you just get over.

Or maybe instead of running from it, Vaarsuvius punishes herself by subjecting herself to the memory over and over.

I think the nightmares (trance terrors?) are more symptoms of their refusal to acknowledge their failings than necessarily about the content of said failings. Because they're now at least attempting* to deal with their misdeeds consciously, the memories of same aren't trying to pound their way into V's thoughts via dreams anymore.

*The efficacy of their efforts and whether the goal is even possible are not things I am prepared to address at this time.

EDIT: Singular-they and plural-they in the same sentence gets really weird.

[Peelee]

EDIT: Ninja's by Peelee, who put it a heck of a lot more succinctly.
One of the many benefits I've noticed when I dumb things down for myself.:smalltongue:

I shoulda been quicker with that edit.
If it makes you feel any better, you're the first one who asked it that I didn't respond with a bet and just straight-up assuming you didn't think of a D&D item.:smallwink:

[AutomatedTeller]

Did V struck you as healthy during that time? Just becaause something isn't necessary for you to stay alive doesn't mean it isn't good for you. Also the reason V avoided trancing was because of the guilt-tripping dreams, which I think they have gotten over by now.

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

[Fyraltari]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

V isn't trancing to learn new spells, V is trancing to prepare their spells for the day

[gatemansgc]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

with what happened to V afterwards (familicide still weighs heavy), i don't think they're ever going to go through that again. can't risk that much of a lapse in judgment. so trancing is better.

[Kareasint]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

[Peelee]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.

V's trance is like a human's sleep. It's just rest, although elves have no downsides for not tracing, IIRC. V doesn't need to trance for his spells, they just need to spend an hour preparing them for the new day. V still wants to trance, though.

[Grey Watcher]

Maybe I chose the wrong post to quote. I mean Tarquin was wrong that he can manipulate how the world works which was Zim's original assertion. I don't see what I say has to do with the fallacy you linked.

Unless there's something else I'm missing here?

I meant the link more in support of what you were saying, in the sense that, even though "sounding like Tarquin is bad" is a bad argument due to the aforementioned ad hominem fallacy, the broader point of "Tarquin's wrong about the amount of power genre-savviness confers" is not disproven by use of said argument.

[Kish]

No, what I meant is that it seems to be implied here that V is trancing to be able to learn spells. Clearly, during that arc, V A) did not trance and B) learned spells - specifically, the spells being researched.

That seems like a contradiction, though maybe there isn't one, I dunno.
Okay, there's some term confusion here. Vaarsuvius needs to spend eight hours doing nothing to prepare spells. Normally this coincides with trance or sleep, if the wizard is able to trance or sleep (Xykon has to just sit around for his sorcerous equivalent, 'cause he's undead). Vaarsuvius previously chose to forcibly keep themself from trancing at all, even though, being a wizard, that meant they had to sit around for eight hours doing nothing (like Xykon, though he has no psychological side effects because his brain's dead already). And Vaarsuvius nearly went mad from trance deprivation, entirely unrelated to their ability to prepare spells, which they were still doing every day.

Researching new spells is unrelated to preparing spells and unrelated to trance.

[SilverCacaobean]

I meant the link more in support of what you were saying, in the sense that, even though "sounding like Tarquin is bad" is a bad argument due to the aforementioned ad hominem fallacy, the broader point of "Tarquin's wrong about the amount of power genre-savviness confers" is not disproven by use of said argument.

I kind of figured it out after I saw your next post. Oh well. Reading comprehension fail on my part I guess :smalltongue:

[GreyTraveller]

No "demanding mental tasks" are allowed either. We were given an example of the kind of tomes one could read instead of trancing here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html).V and Blackwing also do a lot of word search puzzles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1078.html).

[Snails]

The beauty of The Giant's villains is that they are usually partially correct in their insight about something important. The more important villains have more important insights.

The villains will always be proven wrong in a way that matters. Always.

Tarquin is right that the OotSverse has Narrative Logic embedded in it. He is wrong about he himself (or any of the characters) being capable of manipulating Narrative Logic to his own ends, at least over the long haul.

Roy will prevail by being a hero for his own good reasons, not by figuring out how a hero is supposed to win a story like this one. Elan will have his happy ending because he will prove willing to pay a great price to do the right thing, not by figuring out how to be the kind of person who has a happy ending. Etc.

Tarquin is wrong.

And, BTW, the other side of the Fallacy Fallacy coin is Unfalsifiable Things Do Not Matter.

But in this case, we have plenty of positive evidence that Tarquin is wrong in some very important ways, even if he is partially right about the metaphysics.

[gatemansgc]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

it has a big fat thunderbolt on it and it's sparking lol.

i think roy would be willing to, he doesn't want durkon dying again. he's -2 levels now thanks to hilgya being dumb. the strength of a full strength hammer of thunderbolts would be very helpful.

[hroþila]

with what happened to V afterwards (familicide still weighs heavy), i don't think they're ever going to go through that again. can't risk that much of a lapse in judgment. so trancing is better.
It is important to note that the Soul Splice came with a rejuvenating effect, so V was fresh as a daisy once it was in effect. The responsibility for Familicide falls entirely on their shoulders.

[Fyraltari]

It is important to note that the Soul Splice came with a rejuvenating effect, so V was fresh as a daisy once it was in effect. The responsibility for Familicide falls entirely on their shoulders.

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?

[Peelee]

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?

Yep. V took the deal because they thought, "I alone can fix it." That was a fundamental aspect of their character before being humbled. The trance deprivation was just a convenient excuse they could tell the self of needed.

[hroþila]

But would V have taken the deal without the trance-deprivation?
There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.

[Grey Watcher]

The beauty of The Giant's villains is that they are usually partially correct in their insight about something important. The more important villains have more important insights.

The Giant himself laid it out (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html) a long time ago:


In fact, often the villains I create will personify an emotional response that I specifically find inappropriate.

[Doug Lampert]

Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.

The belt of giant strength gives Roy a +3 to attack and +4 or +5 to damage. He can get +2 to attack and +3 to damage from a second level spell Durkon can cast (same bonus type, so it's one or the other).

So Roy gives up +1 attack and and +1 or 2 damage if he gives up the belt.

The belt of giant strength gives Durkon an extra +5 to attack and +5 or more to damage (increased enhancement on the hammer plus the effects of the belt stack with the gauntlets for purposes of the hammer). Toss in a Thor's Might or Enlarge Person to counter the penalties for using an oversized weapon and Durkon becomes vastly more competent in melee, which is how he usually fights.

If Durkon needs the belt, he gets the belt.

[Fyraltari]

Yep. V took the deal because they thought, "I alone can fix it." That was a fundamental aspect of their character before being humbled. The trance deprivation was just a convenient excuse they could tell the self of needed.
The trance deprivation along with the urgency of the situation allowed V to act on their desire rather than their conscience. V was always in search for power but without any of those, had the Three Fiends shown up on their doorstep they'd have refused their offer. At the very least the trance deprivation prevented V from realizing that the alternate plan was bogus.

There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.
Yes but both were bad choices and the second was only possible because of the first.

[thereaper]

Hey, my expectations came true! Thor's secret was a magic weapon!

[Nith]

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception. :smallbiggrin:

[Alaska Fan]

"Loki sucks"

Made me spit coffee all over my keyboard.

[Peelee]

The trance deprivation along with the urgency of the situation allowed V to act on their desire rather than their conscience.
Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge. V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception. :smallbiggrin:
Well it was the dwarves what built the statue.

[Resileaf]

It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, well, Thor's not the one who inscribed that. XD

[Crusher]

Time to power-up!

[Keltest]

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge. V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.

I would suggest that the trance deprivation was the primary factor in letting things get that far. Had V not been so exhausted, they would have been much less likely to abandon the fleet or, barring that, to lose to the ABD so badly (ie missing their dimensional anchor). The scenario would have been sufficiently different that the IFCC's deal would not be the only perceived way forward.

[zimmerwald1915]

If Durkon needs the belt, he gets the belt.
Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

[Crusher]

a deadly bee weapon? :smallamused:

not the bees!

[Vendanna]

Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

"the boots were totally powerful, but they were lime green"... <- a grave conundrum you faced indeed...

that's easy to solve with dyes, and also durkon ain't a girl that have problems with fashions. :P

[Kantaki]

LOKI SUCKS

best password ever. XDDD

That's your opinion.
Go Loki!:smalltongue:


Vaarsuvius previously chose to forcibly keep themself from trancing at all, even though, being a wizard, that meant they had to sit around for eight hours doing nothing (like Xykon, though he has no psychological side effects because his brain's dead already)..

What brain?
Xykon is literally brainless.
Because he's a s... orcerer.:smallbiggrin:
And a skeleton. That might be prt of it too.

[Kakuro]

Anyone know what Blackwing's comment about V and Boob dripping meant?

[Rollin]

Okay, so I guessed wrong about the forgotten lore of Thor’s secret. The council chamber doesn’t have a skylight.

Yet. :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

Anyone know what Blackwing's comment about V and Boob dripping meant?
That Vaarsuvius didn't require any warm milk to trance. The joke being that Vaarsuivus is less childlike than Elan.

[Peelee]

Important counterpoint: Roy's belt is green, and goes with his hilt and his name. It would clash horribly with Durkon's design.

Maybe the belts are different colors, for different bonuses and Durkon would get a nice blue one to match his future armor?

Okay, so I guessed wrong about the forgotten lore of Thor’s secret. The council chamber doesn’t have a skylight.

Yet. :smallbiggrin:

Hmmmm... That would certainly fit with the "destruction" angle. I like it!

[Fyraltari]

Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge.
But not to V's. V thought (probably in part thanks to the trance-dprivation) that there was another way, therefore they made the decision to act wrongly for what they knew were wrong reasons. When someone does something they know is wrong there is an element of "I've gone this far, might as well keep going" to it. V had tacitly acknowledged that their choice was motivated by greed. Had they realized the fiends' deception, they would have fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it for their family, which would have given more weight to Inkyrius' words (enought to sway Vaarsuvius? I don't know).

V's actions during the splice were all their own for their own benefit, as their spouse pointed out very succinctly.

*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.
Of course V is to blame for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that their state of mind wasn't relevant. If someone is violent while being drunk, they're responsible for their behaviour as they are still the same person, but that wouldn't mean they would behave the same way when sober. And knowing this, staying sober is the right thing to do. The same goes for V: they know being trance-deprived lead them to act on their worst self so the right thing to do (well the first right thing to do) is to trance regularly. As a prevention measure if nothing else.

EDIT: By the way, couldn't V have Send to Master Aarindus, themself, without involving Qarr or Durkon?

[DrH]

We already know that Loki's fire burns hotter.


But magma is hotter than fire!




and sword is hotter than magma.

I regret nothing!

[Phantom Thief]

Wait, are they sure they revived Durkon Thundershield and not Murkon Lightninghammer?

[Snails]

There's a good chance that they would have, in my opinion. But regardless, taking the deal didn't necessarily lead to Familicide: the use of that spell wasn't inevitable, it was a separate moral decision.

Precisely. It was a completely unforced choice on V's part to solve a purely theoretical future potential threat to his family by bludgeoning an already defeated foe with horrifying epic arcane power.

V had already decided that "if only I had enough arcane power I could really solve X and Y and Z and ...everything." Well, given overwhelming arcane power in the palm of hir hand, this was hir first demonstration that, not only can magic win combats, but it an completely "solve" problems.

[Peelee]

But not to V's. V thought (probably in part thanks to the trance-dprivation) that there was another way, therefore they made the decision to act wrongly for what they knew were wrong reasons. When someone does something they know is wrong there is an element of "I've gone this far, might as well keep going" to it. V had tacitly acknowledged that their choice was motivated by greed. Had they realized the fiends' deception, they would have fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it for their family, which would have given more weight to Inkyrius' words (enought to sway Vaarsuvius? I don't know).

Of course V is to blame for their own actions, but that doesn't mean that their state of mind wasn't relevant. If someone is violent while being drunk, they're responsible for their behaviour as they are still the same person, but that wouldn't mean they would behave the same way when sober. And knowing this, staying sober is the right thing to do. The same goes for V: they know being trance-deprived lead them to act on their worst self so the right thing to do (well the first right thing to do) is to trance regularly. As a prevention measure if nothing else.

EDIT: By the way, couldn't V have Send to Master Aarindus, themself, without involving Qarr or Durkon?

V's actions while refreshed from the splice (specifically, refusing to give up the splice when asked) tell us that the trance fatigue did not affect their original decision.

And Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) takes 10 minutes to cast. If you want to assume that time is handwaved for the plan, we can assume V didn't have it prepared. V certainly didn't see that option themself, and it is much clearer than the alternate plan not working.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Now that I think of it, No Quarter also works pretty well. Although, I think that joke was made in the print-only content somewhere.

[zimmerwald1915]

Here's a (possibly non-comprehensive) linked list of Order of the Stick weapon upgrades:

Vaarsuvius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) - Ring of Wizardry
Roy Greenhilt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) - Starmetal Sword
Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) - Keen Rapier
Haley Starshine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html) - Icy Burst Arch-O-Ry
Elan (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html) - Chaos Sabre
Belkar Bitterleaf (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html) - Psionic Dagger
Blackwing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html) - Ioun Stone
Roy Greenhilt (again) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html) - Weapons of Legacy Book (booster for Starmetal Sword)
Durkon Thundershield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html) - Hammer of ???
Comprehensive list of the Order's permanent, non-consumable magic items:
:roy: Roy Greenhilt
Stared with and not improved: Magical armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html), having read a Manual of Gainful Exercise (SSDT)
Gained or improved: Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), heirloom +5 Starmetal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html) Greatsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html) of Legacy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1025.html), Belt of Giant Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html), runestone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html)

:belkar: Belkar Bitterleaf
Started with and not improved: 3 small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) (one +4 and one +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16461748&postcount=668))
Gained or improved: Ring of Jumping +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), bag of holding full of money (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html), +5 Dagger of Collision (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html), +3 Vest of Resistance, Clasp of Protection from Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html)

:durkon: Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), Hammer of Loki Sucks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)

:elan: Elan
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: Boots of Elvenkind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), evil sword (SSDT), Belt of Charisma +2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), Chaos Sabre (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0943.html)

:haley: Haley Starshine
Started with and not improved: dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html) of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11095086&postcount=2)
Gained or improved: 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html), +5 Air Freshener of Pineness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0526.html), +5 Icy Burst Longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)

:vaarsuvius: Vaarsuvius and http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Blackwing.png Blackwing
Started with and not improved: Headband of Intellect +4
Gained or improved: Ring of Wizardry III (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0182.html), bracelet with Orange Prism Ioun Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0967.html)

[Fyraltari]

V's actions while refreshed from the splice (specifically, refusing to give up the splice when asked) tell us that the trance fatigue did not affect their original decision.
Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.


And Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) takes 10 minutes to cast. If you want to assume that time is handwaved for the plan, we can assume V didn't have it prepared. V certainly didn't see that option themself, and it is much clearer than the alternate plan not working.
I didn't know that. That makes sense.

[Kish]

Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.

I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."


:haley: Haley Starshine
Started with and not improved:
Gained or improved: 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html),
That should really be "like eight Bags of Holding."

[Fyraltari]

Hammer of Loki Sucks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)

:smallbiggrin:
Can we all agree to always call it that now, regardless of the explanation that are sure to come next comic?

[Peelee]

Refusing to back down from a decision and taking that decision are two different things. Of course V did not reneg the Soul splice while refreshed, why would they? They had what they always wanted.

If you stab a guy while drunk, immediately and instantly become sober, would you plunge the knife in deeper? V would, which tells me V would have taken the splice even if trance rested.

[Fyraltari]

If you stab a guy while drunk, immediately and instantly become sober, would you plunge the knife in deeper? V would, which tells me V would have taken the splice even if trance rested.
I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?

[Peelee]

I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?

Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).

[Doug Lampert]

Hammer of Loki Sucks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)


:smallbiggrin:
Can we all agree to always call it that now, regardless of the explanation that are sure to come next comic?

Agreed. That's now the name.

[CriticalFailure]

Started with and not improved: dyed Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html)

I think Haley would say they’ve been improved

[Fyraltari]

Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz) and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)"?

[Crœsos]

And Sending (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sending.htm) takes 10 minutes to cast.
I didn't know that. That makes sense.

You could just pretend that ten minutes pass between each panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html). :smallbiggrin:

[woweedd]

I wouldn't (I hope). But again I see an element of "I've come this far..."

Why do you think the Fiends manufactured a second option for them?
To re-frame their decision-making process. It's not just about the actions, it's about the motivation. Making a deal with Evil to save your family, though not God, could be a argued as "doing what I needed to do". Making a deal with Evil for your own ego? Not so much. Whether or not the plan would have actually worked, as long as V THOUGHT it would've worked, THOUGHT they had another option, their decision became about ego, not about saving their children, thus shifting the motivation further towards Evil. Whether or not V needed the convincing, I don't know, although i'm wiling to bet they would Brahe taken the deal with or without the alternate plan presented. All it did was shift their motivation.

[Peelee]

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz) and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)"?

Again, V was already about to accept, was already sold. What were they tempting V with? All they did was force V to realize that it was for selfish reasons. I would say they knew V would take the deal no matter what, because of V's pride.

You could just pretend that ten minutes pass between each panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html). :smallbiggrin:

That doesn't work when those ten minutes mean your family will be killed and Soul Bound.

[Fyraltari]

To re-frame their decision-making process. It's not just about the actions, it's about the motivation. Making a deal with Evil to save your family, though not God, could be a argued as "doing what I needed to do". Making a deal with Evil for your own ego? Not so much. Whether or not the plan would have actually worked, as long as V THOUGHT it would've worked, THOUGHT they had another option, their decision became about ego, not about saving their children, thus shifting the motivation further towards Evil.
Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

Whether or not V needed the convincing, I don't know, although i'm wiling to bet they would Brahe taken the deal with or without the alternate plan presented. All it did was shift their motivation.
There are two importants choices by V as far as the Fiends were concerned:
1) Taking the deal and
2) Attacking Xykon
If V wasn't presented with the second option they would certainly take the deal, but there would be alower chance of them doing anything with it apart from killing the mother dragon. If V was presented with the second option there was a lower chance of them taking the deal but once taken there was a greater chance of them attacking Xykon.

[woweedd]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

There are two importants choices by V as far as the Fiends were concerned:
1) Taking the deal and
2) Attacking Xykon
If V wasn't presented with the second option they would certainly take the deal, but there would be alower chance of them doing anything with it apart from killing the mother dragon. If V was presented with the second option there was a lower chance of them taking the deal but once taken there was a greater chance of them attacking Xykon.
O...K? What is your argument?

[Fyraltari]

O...K? What is your argument?

Trance-deprivation lead V to believe the alternate plan was feasible which forced them to admit they weren't doing this selflessly which lead them to attack Xykon which was what the Fiends wanted.

Also, without the trance dprivation they might have had a better check on their worst desires and refuse the deal altogether but that is hard to tell especially since it would need to weighed against the dragon attack.

EDIT: And none of this excuses V, to be clear.

[OneSpartan]

"Loki sucks"


Imagine if the entire dwarven "hatred of trees" doctrine exists just because the stone mason needed a way to finish the phrase.

:smallamused:

[Snails]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.


V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.

V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

[MReav]

Finally! A weapon that Xykon doesn't have resistance to.

[GreatWyrmGold]

V isn't trancing to learn new spells, V is trancing to prepare their spells for the day
That's still something they did while going without trance.



Whether it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts or just a Dwarven Thrower, it is still going to hurt when it makes contact.

If it is the Hammer and those are Gauntlets of Ogre Power, then Durkon will need a belt of Giant Strength. If one is not in the drawer, there is still one available.

But Roy would have to be willing to give it up.
Shouldn't be hard. Roy seems like the type who'd be willing to give up a moderate bonus in order to give an ally a major bonus.



V's trance is like a human's sleep. It's just rest, although elves have no downsides for not tracing, IIRC.
Eh...reduced (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html) downsides. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0629.html) Those are not the eyes, complexion, and aim of a perfectly healthy elf.



The Giant himself laid it out (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/rTKEivnsYuZrh94H1Sn.html) a long time ago:
Those two statements don't seem to be contradictory, nor do they support one another. I suppose they're complementary, arguably...



It's funny that the inscription at Thor's statue heralds him as "Champion of killing trees" despite that being a Dwarven misconception. :smallbiggrin:
Who do you think made the statue?



Irrelevant. There was an immediate need that had to be addressed. Taking the deal was the only way* to save their family at that point, to the best of my knowledge.
*i know we had a discussion in this the other day, and hey, I'm open to being wrong. All ears.
I mean, there are actions V could take that theoretically could have saved her family, if things played out right. But there aren't any actions they could take that would probably save her family.



I would suggest that the trance deprivation was the primary factor in letting things get that far. Had V not been so exhausted, they would have been much less likely to abandon the fleet or, barring that, to lose to the ABD so badly (ie missing their dimensional anchor). The scenario would have been sufficiently different that the IFCC's deal would not be the only perceived way forward.
1. Also, the black dragon explicitly said she was waiting for an opportunity when V was alone.
2. On the other hand, the causality does not go Trance Deprivation —> Abandon Fleet. In fact, neither caused the other; they were both caused by V's guilt, feelings of impotence, etc.



That Vaarsuvius didn't require any warm milk to trance. The joke being that Vaarsuivus is less childlike than Elan.
And also that Blackwing finds mammals disgusting.



I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."
I can see a distinction dependant on context; e.g, if V also wanted to keep their family intact and didn't hav other business to attend to, there wouldn't be much reason to hold onto the splice (what, to feel powerful for a few more days?) and reason enough to drop it.



Because they're Evil. V was already about to take the splice. They just wanted to twist the knife (different knife, of course).
That is neither true of all Evil beings, nor mutually-exclusive with wanting to encourage V to hold onto the splice.

[zimmerwald1915]

And also that Blackwing finds mammals disgusting.
I mean, he's not wrong. Blackwing is still, however, a disgusting biophiliac.

[Fyraltari]

V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.
According to the Directors (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), it was 84% of a given.


V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

They did not foresee it, they were shocked by it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html).
Also we don't know what exactly their plans are, but we know they want conflict. Eliminating one faction entirely does not help that goal.

EDIT:

I don't really see much of a distinction between "obviously they wouldn't drop it, they had what they always wanted" and "obviously they'd pick it up to begin with, it was what they always wanted."
It is easier to hold to something you acquired while acting wrongly than to act wrongly to a acquire something. In the first case you can "the harm's already done, so why not enjoy the upside of it".

[rbetieh]

man that rivalry with loki reaches far....

[Rrmcklin]

V going after Xykon was a given, once the deal was accepted to save hir family.

V employing Familicide was not a given, but a deliciously Evil possibility that would clear the board of a powerful faction in the Gate race.

I interpret goading V as a purposeful tactic to increase the odds of Familicide, among other things.

I don't, because even the IFCC were clearly surprised by it when it happened. I also wouldn't assume that the IFCC had intimate knowledge of each gate, who was defending it, and how. They needed Sabine to inform them about their very existences, after all.

[Pampukin]

Really? You think these three gave V a chance to refuse, therefore endangered their plans, just for the evulz (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ForTheEvulz) and that it wasn't as Qarr put it "A master class in temptation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html)"?
I think as Woweedd said, its to further damn V. Should any contest be held for their soul, once dead the argument "It wasnt a fully councious desicion" wouldnt fly. That is besides the whole familicide thing, Just the "pact with devils" evil act.

[schmunzel]

WHY?!

Why wasn't Elan in the room for this?!?!

fair question

- His bardic training would have immediately given way the kind of artifact Durkon found. And it is supposed to come as a surprise at later Point?

I cant' think of any other reason at this point

sch

[Fyraltari]

I think as Woweedd said, its to further damn V. Should any contest be held for their soul, once dead the argument "It wasnt a fully councious desicion" wouldnt fly. That is besides the whole familicide thing, Just the "pact with devils" evil act.

Except, they don't really care about V's soul.

[Potato_Priest]

Finally! A weapon that Xykon doesn't have resistance to.

Actually, liches are immune to electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[D.One]

fair question

- His bardic training would have immediately given way the kind of artifact Durkon found. And it is supposed to come as a surprise at later Point?

I cant' think of any other reason at this point

sch

The reason I see is the joke about giving him a glass of milk in order for him to sleep...


Except, they don't really care about V's soul.

They don't completely "don't care". It's a free soup or salad, after all. :smalltongue:

[Nith]

Who do you think made the statue?


Yes, I know. I'm not stupid... I just still find it funny. :smallsmile:

[niklinna]

Nice touch with the gloves.

That reminded me of an episode of a quaint old TV show, Lost in Space: The Space Vikings. In which Dr. Smith stumbles upon the gloves of Thor. And Thor's hammer. And Thor.

https://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNzU0MDY4MjQ1Nl5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwODY2ODI0MjE@._ V1_.jpg

Hit youtube for clips, if you think you can stand the camp.

[Lord Raziere]

Yup, probably going forward the world's easiest to hack password.

But serves its purpose: after all, saying Loki sucks is blasphemy against their god, and what cleric would do that?

[Peelee]

Exactly, and they wanted V to be more Evil, to be more honest about their motivation, because they wnted them to challenege Xykon, which would have had a lower chance of happening if V fooled themselves into thinking they were doing it selfelssly to save their family.

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

[SilverCacaobean]

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.

It's possible that V would have been able to see that the alternate plan proposed by the IFCC was bogus were it not for the trance deprivation. I think that's what Fyraltari's arguing.

But I think it's also pretty clear that V would make the same decision even without trance deprivation if they were presented with a similar situation with two actually legitimate choices.

I think what's said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) is also what can be said about the trance deprivation.

Edit: I'm talking about the part where if V blamed their actions on the trance deprivation, they'd die without acknowledging or repenting for their crime.

[Fyraltari]

What does that have to do with the trance deprivation, though? This whole thing is supposed to be an exploration of whether V would have accepted the deal without the trance deprivation. It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.
People in an unhealthy state of mind (ie exhaustion here) tend to think less about their actions. It is hard to say that V would not have taken the deal if they had tranced properly, but I do think it played a part.


I think what's said here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) is also what can be said about the trance deprivation.

Edit: I'm talking about the part where if V blamed their actions on the trance deprivation, they'd die without acknowledging or repenting for their crime.
Nobody said that being tranced deprived alleviated V's culpability. It was 100% V. But the same people can make different choices in different contextes. All I am saying is that the trance-deprivation is part of the explanation of V's actions, not an excuse for it.

[zimmerwald1915]

It sure seems like V would have accepted it under any condition, which is what the IFCC makes clear.
The question is, would Vaarsuvius have been in a position to accept the deal without being trance-deprived? Without being trance-deprived, she probably would not have left the fleet and thus probably would not have been attacked by the Ancient Black Dragon. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have expended so many high-level spells attempting to see off Qarr (incidentally, Vaarsuvius was emphatically not buying what Qarr was selling before the Ancient Black Dragon arrived), and thus would not have given the Ancient Black Dragon the opening she needed to attack. Relatedly, without being trance-deprived, she may have hit the Ancient Black Dragon with a dimensional anchor. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have asked Qarr to make a devil's bargain even after the Ancient Black Dragon's speech - if she hadn't, the Directors would not have been able to "intercede on [her] account."

Totality of the circumstances suggests that Vaarsuvius's trance-deprivation was an important factor in her behavior, if not a proximate cause of her decision or a mitigating factor in any moral judgment of that decision.

[Peelee]

It's possible that V would have been able to see that the alternate plan proposed by the IFCC was bogus were it not for the trance deprivation. I think that's what Fyraltari's arguing.

But that doesn't matter, because V was already going to take the deal.

The question is, would Vaarsuvius have been in a position to accept the deal without being trance-deprived? Without being trance-deprived, she probably would not have left the fleet and thus probably would not have been attacked by the Ancient Black Dragon. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have expended so many high-level spells attempting to see off Qarr (incidentally, Vaarsuvius was emphatically not buying what Qarr was selling before the Ancieng Black Dragon arrived), and thus would not have given the Ancient Black Dragon the opening she needed to attack. Relatedly, without being trance-deprived, she may have hit the Ancient Black Dragon with a dimensional anchor. Without being trance-deprived, she may not have asked Qarr to make a devil's bargain even after the Ancient Black Dragon's speech - if she hadn't, the Directors would not have been able to "intercede on [her] account."

Totality of the circumstances suggests that Vaarsuvius's trance-deprivation was an important factor in her behavior, if not a proximate cause of her decision or a mitigating factor in any moral judgment of that decision.

Now that is a much better way of looking at it. Though I still think V would have ultimately taken it even without the deprivation, if given the chance. Pride goeth before the fall.

[SoulOfTheReaver]

This page best read with AC/DC - Thunderstruck playing in the background.



P.S. Damn, Durkon is now packing the power.

[braveheart]

Devine artifacts ftw

[Fyraltari]

In other words, I see V going without trancing as part of the effort of the author to break them (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16575274&postcount=75).

[SilverCacaobean]

But that doesn't matter, because V was already going to take the deal.

Yes, but then it wouldn't have been obvious that it was V's ego that pushed them to accept the deal. They'd have an excuse like "I don't have any other choice" or something. It wouldn't have changed much, but it showcases V character better if the scene is written as it is; V having a choice (or thinking they do) as opposed to being forced to do one particular thing.

[Riftwolf]

Just off camera, the Church of Thor Mining Choir are chanting like crazy.

[Fyraltari]

Just off camera, the Church of Thor Mining Choir are chanting like crazy.

Who? These guys (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWz0qVvBZ0&t=84s)?

[Grey Watcher]

Those two statements don't seem to be contradictory, nor do they support one another. I suppose they're complementary, arguably...

I did intend it as support, yes. I think the Giant's go-to technique for writing villains is to extrapolate out an inappropriate response to something. In the case of Redcloak and The Dark One, it's the legitimate observation that the distinction between "normal" and "monstrous" races is completely arbitrary and unfair and the inappropriate response of "do the cosmic-scale equivalent of taking hostages and making demands in exchange for their safety." Tarquin takes the correct observation that narrative laws are at play in his world, just as much as the familiar laws of physics, the less-familiar-but-requiring-no-less-calculus laws of magic and the capricious laws of gaming are, and runs with "this knowledge entitles me to rule over everyone."

Basically, my intention was to state that the kinds of well-written villains being discussed are the result of (among a lot of other things) starting from a base like this one.

[MReav]

Actually, liches are immune to electricity. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Amusingly, if it is the Hammer of Thunderbolts, it doesn't actually deal electricity damage. Instead it's 4d6 magic and bludgeoning damage.

[understatement]

Okay, seeing Durkon's expression on the last panel was literally so friggin awesome and that is so freakin cool

if he uses this against Team Evil I will literally-

So. Awesome.

[Fyraltari]

I just realized that Durkon has shading in the last panel.

Just like Thor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1134.html).

I guess a divine messenger really has to look the part.

[ManuelSacha]

It took me a few seconds to figure out what "ruminant boob drippings" meant.
That bird is getting more sassy (and speciesist) every day. :smallbiggrin:

[gatemansgc]

what have i done? i brought up familicide and now the whole thread is derailed...

EDIT: seems the rails returned right after i posted this lol